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[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦


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28 minutes ago, gleek49 said:

 

Well, all I can see is one man who's willing and has the resolve to go all the way, one's never been able to decide what to do. The whole point of GTY's talk with QH is that if QH was a little more aggressive, not scared and worried of this and that, he would have married ML long before the Rong family and Yong Wang family laid eyes on him. 

 

I think people also fail to acknowledge  a few things. 

 

It’s laid out clearly the differences between GTY and QH. We also have to take into consideration the thinking at that time.

 

Unlike GTY, QH had no problems with his family prior to this. How many years had he been raised to follow propriety, to do the proper thing to bring his family honour, etc. GTY on the other hand had been fighting with his family and had more experience with manipulation and strategy to get what he wants. The way QH handled the situation was the way he knew how, with his knowledge, and his experience (or lack thereof). 

 

It also reflects strongly that GTY’s suggestions or way of handling that he’s used to not caring about what others think, same as how he didn’t care about what others thought except for desprate attempts to get approval from his father. However everything else be damned. He had the advantage of a competitive and unpleasant upbringing that he could think of extreme plots to handle the princess. Again, he makes decisions based on his own knowledge and experiences, which if we talk about manipulation was many. Isn’t he older than them as well? I’d say even he has the advantage of age together with experience.

 

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ut the most important thing is that he has the determination. This is not a perfect world, sometimes you have to break the rules to get what you want

 

Isn’t  this a very modern way of thinking? Wasn’t it at their time, the most important thing was country and family honour, and responsibility to your family? Again, quoting you it’s not a perfect world. Sometimes determination just doesn’t get what you want. Breaking the rules doesn’t bring certainty. 

 

Maybe a lot of people admire GTY for his fearlessness. But isn’t QH’s loyalty to family or sacrifice equally admirable especially for QH’s parents? I don’t think we should cheapen his efforts at trying to do what’s right by Ming Lan AND his family with the principles and teachings he believed were also right just because his method was successful at one thing and failed at another. When GTY asked QH if he’d like to do things as he suggested, with the kidnapping, could he just easily shed more than a decade’s worth of belief/upbringing and feel confident that the plot would work. Maybe he didn’t believe GTY’s assurances.

 

GTY is rewarded for his reckless and bold decisions and plots, but isn’t he also just lucky as a character? Even he wasn’t initially able to handle problems right in front of him (Manniang) and he had to learn from his mistake. QH just had to undergo the same — learn from his weaknesses and be better for it in his future. At the same time, both men live up to their decisions responsibly (I.e. GTY caring for his illegitimate children anyhow despite the culture at that time, and QH fulfilling responsibilities for his family and being the only son, etc). I think they are both admirable in their own ways, though differently.

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11 hours ago, m0us3y said:

Then again, I don't think he will ever find out. 

If ML doesn't open up, she can have the whole world fooled that she has absolutely nothing to do with the whole saga...

And even if someone snitch on her, if ML denies it, I'd say QH will believe her...

Because she clearly doesn't seem like she's that cold blooded...

And he probably still believe in unicorns (which would be why he would still try again)...

I agree chances of him finding out is slim.While watching epi 33 I was reminded of this.How little people around ML know of her.Even her grandmother couldn't  believe she could scheme concubine Lin's downfall and death in such a daring manner.

QH got a rude awakening from his 1st wife's family it might have brought about some character growth in him.The next episodes will give us an idea if he is still stuck in the idealistic world or has become more worldly wise.

I am curious to know how GTY would react to ML's scheming tricks. He does resort to them too.

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9 minutes ago, nrbrown said:

I feel a sense of pity for her situation in life. Yes,  she could have married a “poorer” husband and become the first wife. But she felt that woman had to “survive”. The survival of the fittest mentality. No, I’m not justifying or feel that because of her situation she had to murder ML’s mother. I just think that the characters in the drama are depicted in such a way that morally there are grey overtones. 

 

I agree... I also felt a sense of pity for Molan. Very naive...and very sad. It's all about the "what ifs"... Cause if she did not have her mother's influence, she may be different. If Grandma or Big Madam had kicked Concubine Lin out or not let Lin raised any of her children.. I don't think we would get this kind of story. Molan was blinded from wanting to beat her sisters and because of this... she did not see the problem that the Liang family is having internally that they are out looking for a potential daughter-in-law. 

 

As for ML, she's smart and she got the fish to bite her bait. I understand her reason for revenge and why she plan what she did but... I just kinda wish it wasn't ML's plan because she knew very well what was going to happen to Molan...I want to believe that maybe ML think that Molan would be as cunning or more worst than Concubine Lin and be able to handle the Liangs but... as everyone already kinda know what will happen to Molan already. yeah yeah yeah... it's not all ML's fault but I guess we reap what we sow. 

 

 

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First of all, thank you all for posting on this forum.  I'm totally obsessed with this show right now and thrilled to find so many other people enjoying it too.

 

I haven't read the novel so there are some parts that I'm kinda lost about. 

 

1.  ML suppose to be 14/15 when they transition into adulthood in the drama?  How old is GTY's character? 

 

2.  During the Molan/ Madam Lin scandal, how come there was no mention or appearance of the two brothers at all?  It's like the author just forgot about them or am I missing something?  Seems odd that such a big scandal is rocking the family and they aren't part of the discussions.

 

3.  Some of you have mentioned that GTY is a schemer but I haven't really seen that much of it yet in the drama.  Seems like he's the one being manipulated by his mistress and his step-mother.  Is that part different than the novel?

 

Thanks all!

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The quiet ones are usually the most dangerous ones :D . ML scheme was amazing. No one even suspected her except grandma. Loved the shock grandma got when ML explained it all. Anyway, great that concubine lin is gone, hope they show alittle of Molan's life of misery on screen.

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@artbox QH is the way he is because of his upbringing, it's not his fault, I get it, I've said it before in this thread. I've never said GTY is better than him, he just more suitable to ML than QH, that's all. I'm also glad that QH was confronted by the reality and learned from the hard experience. I'm just disagree with @linhlinh111 that GTY was "unreasonable and impulsive" and that he was "lucky" and it was "easy" for him to get Minglan. 

 

My point is both man approach the matter the best way they know how, it just happened that in this particular case of Marrying Miss Sheng Sixth, QH's righteous and proper way didn't worked out and he lost his chance forever. Meanwhile, GTY's aggressive and fearless way works wonder on her. As I said before, even if he schemes, he schemes in a way that cause nobody harm, even help Rulan marries as she wishes. We've seen enough of how he operates in the drama (taking care of Manniang and the kids, saving ML but still considering her reputation, etc.) to know that he's definitely not "unreasonable and impulsive". Also, GTY worked hard and been through a lot to get to this point, pulling an entirely elaborate plot just to marry a girl, I wouldn't call it "easy".

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10 minutes ago, gleek49 said:

@artboxI'm just disagree with @linhlinh111 that GTY was "unreasonable and impulsive" and that he was "lucky" and it was "easy" for him to get Minglan. 

 

My point is both man approach the matter the best way theyknow how, it just happened that in this particular case of Marrying Miss Sheng Sixth, QH's righteous and proper way didn't worked out and he lost his chance forever. Meanwhile, GTY's aggressive and fearless way works wonder on her. As I said before, even if he schemes, he schemes in a way that cause nobody harm, even help Rulan marries as she wishes. 

 

I think GTY has his impulsive moments, but not all the time (i.e. going off as Bai Ye with his daughter until Ming Lan talked some sense into him). Maybe he's just not impulsive towards Ming Lan so far. 

 

I know we all like it in the drama but GTY using Rulan felt the same as Ming Lan using her Second Older Brother (at least she disliked it afterwards). If the scholar turned out to be an unpleasant person then we can't confidently say no one was harmed. I don't want to put GTY in a pedestal. We only see his scheme succeeding and Rulan bring happy but in truth, at the moment he made those decisions what certainty did he have that it was best for Rulan? It was only good for him, and it was as Rulan wanted but neither of them know really if she had the best future with the scholar. :P

 

 

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55 minutes ago, gleek49 said:

@artbox QH is the way he is because of his upbringing, it's not his fault, I get it, I've said it before in this thread. I've never said GTY is better than him, he just more suitable to ML than QH, that's all. I'm also glad that QH was confronted by the reality and learned from the hard experience. I'm just disagree with @linhlinh111 that GTY was "unreasonable and impulsive" and that he was "lucky" and it was "easy" for him to get Minglan. 

 

My point is both man approach the matter the best way they know how, it just happened that in this particular case of Marrying Miss Sheng Sixth, QH's righteous and proper way didn't worked out and he lost his chance forever. Meanwhile, GTY's aggressive and fearless way works wonder on her. As I said before, even if he schemes, he schemes in a way that cause nobody harm, even help Rulan marries as she wishes. We've seen enough of how he operates in the drama (taking care of Manniang and the kids, saving ML but still considering her reputation, etc.) to know that he's definitely not "unreasonable and impulsive". Also, GTY worked hard and been through a lot to get to this point, pulling an entirely elaborate plot just to marry a girl, I wouldn't call it "easy".

 

I am new to the forum but I’ve been following the discussions and I want to say that I agree entirely with this!

 

QH was a product of his upbringing. He was sheltered & given everything he wanted. He never had to work for anything and so he thought he will be allowed to marry Minglan. I can’t fault him for that. My problem comes with the way he went about doing it. He could have asked his mother about ML at any time but he chose her birthday. After making her feel like a queen & when she probably was feeling loved he asked about Minglan making it clear why he planned the celebration. What mother would agree then? She would definitely say no. My other problem with him is he is indecisive. He takes a long while to come to a decision & even longer to act on it. This is why he will never be the one for ML. He would never have been able to protect her in his house. 

 

GTY as a character has been through a lot & has experienced the feeling of being unloved & unwanted and that is why he is perfect for ML. He has learnt to be decisive & plan for everything and work for what he wants. He never had anything easy and I don’t believe he is getting ML easy either. They both fit because of everything they have been through. They open up to each other & bring each other up when they are down. I don’t believe she would have had that with ML. She would have had to pretend to be docile & meek for the rest of her life & not live her life for herself as she would do now after marrying GTY

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1 hour ago, linhlinh111 said:

I see many have posted that QH didn't understand ML, I think that's debatable.

 

First, QH never stated why he liked ML and viewers just assumed that he loved her bc he thought she was a kind-hearted innocent girl. Remember he grew up in a aristocrat household (with all its dark side, like Sheng family), he was sheltered so that he didn't encounter any significant hardships, which lead to his optimism, but it doesn't mean that he was blinded and couldn't see through people. On the contrary, I think he had good eyes in seeing people. Evidence: he never got swayed by Molan or any other girls with both beauty and status around him (he WAS the most wanted man, lots of temptation). I believe he set eyes on ML cuz he felt something different in her, he might not know everything about her right now, but he definitely got a general idea. Proof: later he knows everything and still loves her (and he's not surprised at all). So it's unfair to assume things about him that wasn't shown.

@linhlinh111  I have to agree with you here QH knew some of her, Remembering back to him and second uncle (GTY) how she indeed turn the tables on them and had them both in a heated debate. He told GTY that was a part of the reason he liked her because she was clever like that.. I just don't think he knew how manipulative she could be.. But giving the circumstances of her manipulation I think he would have agreed to what she did.. When in actuality she didn't have to do much she knew Mom and Daughter would hang themselves giving them enough rope to do so.. QH knew ML withstood a lot of hardship in that home so her getting revenge on them was a giving.

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I had a little bit more sympathy for Molan and Concubine Lin in episode 33. Of course, I don't agree with any of their actions towards other women,  but you could really get a sense of how their livelihoods were fragile and depended on the men around them. Once they stepped on Sheng Hong's bottom line, one lost her life and the other was basically disowned. While these outcomes are a consequence of their own actions, you gotta wonder what life would have been like for Concubine Lin, who might be a better politician than her husband, and Molan, who just might be cleverer than her 3rd brother. If they had been men, even if their wily characters remained the same, perhaps their outcomes would have been different. 

 

I teared up a little bit when ML confessed her schemes to Zumu. And, appreciated that Zumu's final response was an apology to ML for not seeking justice for her from the very beginning, thus forcing her to undertake the revenge alone. ML had already given her father opportunities to redeem himself, he just didn't take them...ultimately, the outcomes of the women around him are partly his fault too.  

 

Despite some of the changes to ML as a character, I am very much enjoying the show. That is, I appreciate that ML hides her intelligence, boldness, and anger. I feel that this is much more accurate response of women living under a restrictive time period. This allows me to be convinced by her survival and ultimate victory. Speaking of intelligence, boldness, and anger, this is why I couldn't stand the characterization of Wei Yingluo in Yan Xi Gong...SORRY OT. I will say that ML is increasingly starting to reveal the "protagonist's halo"...but hey it's episode 30+ now anyway. 

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6 hours ago, dito said:

 

Hualan will have a hard time for a while.

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Her MIL is slowly draining away Hualan's dowry. Then whenever she gets mad at Hualan she makes demands and the Sheng family have to send something expensive to pacify her. Hualan's son almost got burned coz he was left alone by the MIL in the room with a burning stove. His little sister was passing by and saw her brother about to get burned so jumped in front of him and saved him. She ended up getting burned instead and had scars on her arms and hands....her brother too got a bit burned. He got scarred near his eye. After that Hualan had enough and begged her husband to get her child back. But her MIL still kept making trouble. She was taking money from other daughter in law too. Situation became that Hualan and her kids wore old mended clothes. And she had nothing new to wear on her sisters wedding. She had to sell one of her jewelry for the money.

After ML and GTY marriage, Hualan used to come visit ML frequently. So ML gave her an idea to get a concubine for her Father in law....so that her MIL will have no time to bully the Daughters in law. Concubine quickly became the favorite and started helping Hualan handle the Mother in law....by getting the father in law involved.

I think I skipped Hualan's chapters coz I don't remember this at all....but I recently read this on the spoiler site so just posting it here.

 

 

Spoiler


Im glad Hualan gets some help i really feel alot of sympathy for her, sad its after more suffering. 

 

2 hours ago, linhlinh111 said:

 

 

Based on effort alone, GTY can never compare to QH. Cuz he never suffers, sacrifices or risking that much for ML. And he gave her up in a situation where (everyone has to agree) there were no other way out (and please with GTY's solution, it was ridiculous and would place everyone in a greater danger). Unlike what most viewers think from the conversation between QH and GTY, I think QH did the right thing while GTY was being unreasonable and impulsive. After all GTY didn't get her fair and square either. QH just didn't figure out the right method, but he had good intentions. QH failed, doesn't mean he was all wrong, GTY succeeded, doesn't mean he was all right (in their relationships with ML). I have to say the author made it pretty easy for him in getting ML.

 

Your saying GTY never suffer's so losing his mother when young , his father's death which was blamed on him. His hate from his brother , betrayal by step mother also Betrayal by MN.. Son is kidnapped.

 

If were talking about suffering hes had is way worse then ML and QH and its not even close its just that hes strong to deal with it and wont break down.

 

 

1 hour ago, artbox said:

 

 

Maybe a lot of people admire GTY for his fearlessness. But isn’t QH’s loyalty to family or sacrifice equally admirable especially for QH’s parents? I don’t think we should cheapen his efforts at trying to do what’s right by Ming Lan AND his family with the principles and teachings he believed were also right just because his method was successful at one thing and failed at another. When GTY asked QH if he’d like to do things as he suggested, with the kidnapping, could he just easily shed more than a decade’s worth of belief/upbringing and feel confident that the plot would work. Maybe he didn’t believe GTY’s assurances.

 

 

 

I dont think QH's loyalty to his parents is admirable , he basically lost his brother Buwei and His love and he basically did nothing against his parents this show's how weak he is. 

 

1 hour ago, JoycceeDreamer said:

 

I agree... I also felt a sense of pity for Molan. Very naive...and very sad. It's all about the "what ifs"... Cause if she did not have her mother's influence, she may be different. If Grandma or Big Madam had kicked Concubine Lin out or not let Lin raised any of her children.. I don't think we would get this kind of story. Molan was blinded from wanting to beat her sisters and because of this... she did not see the problem that the Liang family is having internally that they are out looking for a potential daughter-in-law. 

 

As for ML, she's smart and she got the fish to bite her bait. I understand her reason for revenge and why she plan what she did but... I just kinda wish it wasn't ML's plan because she knew very well what was going to happen to Molan...I want to believe that maybe ML think that Molan would be as cunning or more worst than Concubine Lin and be able to handle the Liangs but... as everyone already kinda know what will happen to Molan already. yeah yeah yeah... it's not all ML's fault but I guess we reap what we sow. 

 

 

 

I feel 0 pity for Molan she wanted to ruin her sisters life this girl can suffer in hell for all i care and im sure ML knew what the Liangs are like which is why she never wanted to go there. Molan does not deserve happiness. 

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1 hour ago, deslynn88 said:

First of all, thank you all for posting on this forum.  I'm totally obsessed with this show right now and thrilled to find so many other people enjoying it too.

 

I haven't read the novel so there are some parts that I'm kinda lost about. 

 

1.  ML suppose to be 14/15 when they transition into adulthood in the drama?  How old is GTY's character? 

 

2.  During the Molan/ Madam Lin scandal, how come there was no mention or appearance of the two brothers at all?  It's like the author just forgot about them or am I missing something?  Seems odd that such a big scandal is rocking the family and they aren't part of the discussions.

 

3.  Some of you have mentioned that GTY is a schemer but I haven't really seen that much of it yet in the drama.  Seems like he's the one being manipulated by his mistress and his step-mother.  Is that part different than the novel?

 

Thanks all!

 

1. I think GTY was about 20-21....not sure but he was about 6-7 years older than ML maybe more.

 

2. I think most likely reason is because it was a delicate matter thats why the brothers were kept away....but father as the decision maker and the head of the family had to be present.

 

3. Because he spent maybe a year or more planning and putting in action his grand scheme to get ML....and it was executed flawlessly. I think he deserves his title of master schemer. 

And yes it was in the novel. We might see some of it in the drama.

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22 minutes ago, crackaddict said:

I had a little bit more sympathy for Molan and Concubine Lin in episode 33. Of course, I don't agree with any of their actions towards other women,  but you could really get a sense of how their livelihoods were fragile and depended on the men around them. Once they stepped on Sheng Hong's bottom line, one lost her life and the other was basically disowned. While these outcomes are a consequence of their own actions, you gotta wonder what life would have been like for Concubine Lin, who might be a better politician than her husband, and Molan, who just might be cleverer than her 3rd brother. If they had been men, even if their wily characters remained the same, perhaps their outcomes would have been different. 

 

I teared up a little bit when ML confessed her schemes to Zumu. And, appreciated that Zumu's final response was an apology to ML for not seeking justice for her from the very beginning, thus forcing her to undertake the revenge alone. ML had already given her father opportunities to redeem himself, he just didn't take them...ultimately, the outcomes of the women around him are partly his fault too.  

 

I feel no sympathy for their greed , Lin was already lucky to have shengs love and Molan was spoiled they have lived good life's and that was going to continue but they are just greedy and deserve everything they got.

 

If they were Men i dont think they would have lived long with those scheme's, and Granny is just amazing in episode and 32 and 33 i just love her so much.

 

When you kill someone and the baby , try to ruin your sisters life's you can burn for all i care you have 0 sympathy from me for being greedy , lets stop acting like they were suffering or something. 

 

Also if Lin was smarter she would not have been caught like this, also there is a reason why no-one helped Molan when she was in trouble/will in trouble. She could have doomed the whole sheng family with her scheme's. 

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10 hours ago, lilkat75 said:

Did anyone find Sheng Hong's reaction hilarious in episode 32 when he caught Molan red-handed? :w00t: That scream lol :joy:

Yes, but his reaction was perfect for the scene.... haha 

9 hours ago, leeza77 said:

I like xiatao attitude. Very protective and compassionate towards ML. When ml cried on the ship, she accompanied ML and sang to her (bad voice.. Ha ha) and when she saw qh and his wife at the monastery, she tried to prevent ml from seeing them. 

Same they think she is dumb but she is just following her master style. Hahaha and I love how tiny she was when she was a kid and now she is tall and plump. You can tell like her master she is well fed compared to the other maids. Lol They have a good life with their master so can see why they would always be grateful to her.

 

8 hours ago, sava2sava said:

@tomo74  Molan did something very stupid.. Madam Wu still was willingly to take her in with the exception of Ming lan being the first wife.. Her mom never thought of this her daughter could become the concubine in such house.. The older two sisters never told her the facts of the marriage talk but once Mdm Wu had to take her in of course she wasn't all to happy about having and unchaste daughter in law.. Mdm Wu may have told her son how can he be so sure that she was chaste when he slept with her.. If she willingly and so daring to sleep with him at a temple she showing and all the other nobles and his family that her chasity was tainted before marriage.. So of course Mdm Wu would make life hell for her because now she has tainted their home also..

I’m not sure if Madam winter would deliberately make her life a hell or she would lower herself like hualan’s mother in law. But I think she just wouldn’t care nor help Molan in trying to control the harem. That’s why she was looking for someone like Minglan who can take that headache from her. Someone who can have control since she said to her son she doesn’t care who he has in his bed as long as he gets a proper wife. Knowing Molan, she won’t be able to handle the harem. And that’ll be her karma. 

 

@Golden Flower

i agree with what you said and also with the typecasting. I guess my point was for a actor that is not well known to get any project is better than none until they make it big and have an option to take on/choice better roles in the future. Just like when YangZi said she wanted to try different roles before but the only roles she could take was same that was offered to her. Now she made it big and I’m sure she’ll be able to diversify her roles.... 

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6 minutes ago, cherubstomato said:

Yes, but his reaction was perfect for the scene.... haha 

Same they think she is dumb but she is just following her master style. Hahaha and I love how tiny she was when she was a kid and now she is tall and plump. You can tell like her master she is well fed compared to the other maids. Lol They have a good life with their master so can see why they would always be grateful to her.

 

I’m not sure if Madam winter would deliberately make her life a hell or she would lower herself like hualan’s mother in law. But I think she just wouldn’t care nor help Molan in trying to control the harem. That’s why she was looking for someone like Minglan who can take that headache from her. Someone who can have control since she said to her son she doesn’t care who he has in his bed as long as he gets a proper wife. Knowing Molan, she won’t be able to handle the harem. And that’ll be her karma. 

 

@Golden Flower

i agree with what you said and also with the typecasting. I guess my point was for a actor that is not well known to get any project is better than none until they make it big and have an option to take on/choice better roles in the future. Just like when YangZi said she wanted to try different roles before but the only roles she could take was same that was offered to her. Now she made it big and I’m sure she’ll be able to diversify her roles.... 

 

Xiaotao is the little ML haha people think shes dumb when shes playing these dumb people, Molon will be like the sheng mother she will have "power" but the concubine will have the love. I bet Yan Zi is happy he picked this drama considering its bigger then anything else hes done.

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1 hour ago, artbox said:

 

I think GTY has his impulsive moments, but not all the time (i.e. going off as Bai Ye with his daughter until Ming Lan talked some sense into him). Maybe he's just not impulsive towards Ming Lan so far. 

 

I know we all like it in the drama but GTY using Rulan felt the same as Ming Lan using her Second Older Brother (at least she disliked it afterwards). If the scholar turned out to be an unpleasant person then we can't confidently say no one was harmed. I don't want to put GTY in a pedestal. We only see his scheme succeeding and Rulan bring happy but in truth, at the moment he made those decisions what certainty did he have that it was best for Rulan? It was only good for him, and it was as Rulan wanted but neither of them know really if she had the best future with the scholar. :P

 

 

Muum, i think the encounter and falling into love of Rulan and the scholar were not schemed by GTY. That was purely mutual affection of them own. Just fate (The drama made it more obvious than in the novel). Honestly speaking, the chance of Rulan getting into an unpleasant marriage with this scholar or with any other candidates were the same. There were no guarantee anyway. Look at Hualan. At least she would be happy for staying with the one she loved. 

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Spoiler

In gty conversations with cb he actually didn't say that he wanted to marry rulan. He just say he loved cb's sister and cb asked which sister. Gty said naturally the beautiful one. Cb misunderstood he meant for rulan thus told the parents so. Ml told rulan about gty wanted to marry rulan andd rulan said better he married you. But ml said he didn't want me. Did it mean that ml has gty in his heart already??? 

 

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  • Jillia changed the title to [Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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