[Drama 2018-2019] Children of Nobody/Red Moon, Blue Sun, 붉은달 푸른해

[twin-twin]

 

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

episode 23-24 preview

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Spoiler

 

 

[loveseek630]

19 minutes ago, twin-twin said:

 

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

episode 23-24 preview

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HOLY SHAHSHSGJSSHJAHAGAGA

 

AAAAHHHHHHHH

 

Well, we already guessed the Director would be abusive towards Eunho... And I had a feeling Red Cry would go after him later on, but... Now I'm curious how it happened and if it would really be Eunho or Red Cry <or both, in case they're the same person>. Since Red Cry is acting a little more violent and the crimes seem a little less planned lately, I wonder if he's killing on a whim now without masking it anymore as suicide or covered crimes.

 

And if it's really Eunho who did it, I wonder if Red Cry pushed him to do it like they have pushed PYT and MHJ to execute the punishments.

 

I feel bad that 3 cases have involved Eunho now tho. Jiheon won't let him off now akdhsjhsjsshja

[partyon]

@twin-twin Thank you so much for the preview. My Korean isn't good enough to understand everything they were saying, so if anyone wants to translate the preview, I wouldn't mind....

Seems anyway like JH was really beaten up by the dark figure / Red Cry...

Also, the director has some anger management issues.

It seems we have a new body, too, is it the director of Hanul Center?

I am getting some interesting vibes and thoughts from the preview.... I can't wait for Wednesday!

 

@selenette Thanks for your analysis - very interesting indeed!   I already read it on Twitter earlier. 

 

5 hours ago, detective3d said:

I am wondering the same too! She was allowed to live which doesn't tally with what Red Cry has been doing.

 

Was it really an accident and a red herring?

 

From all the views in this forum, seems like we have a good theory going on. But it is these kind of minor details that throw the theories off!

With regards to Seok Woo's mom, I have a theory why she hasn't been shown since. I think the poem and the subsequent accident were parts of a red herring, OR then they were warnings from Red Cry for her to stay away from the child she abandoned.

I am not 100% if I remember correctly, but Seok Woo and his sister were never patients/customers of Hanul Children's Center. Their case was something that CWK investigated on her own time. Which is interesting in a way, because it would then confirm that Hanul Children's center is the way Red Cry gets new cases.

Does anyone remember if CWK talked with her psychologist about Seok Woo's parents? I remember that she talked about Seok Woo and running him over, but can't remember if she talked about the kids' abandonment.

In any case, if she did talk to her psychologist about how angry she was about Seok Woo's mom, and the psychologist is Red Cry, wouldn't he have made sure that Seok Woo's mom was eliminated?

[bebebisous33]

@twin-twin Thanks a lot for the preview. It looks like LEH will be arrested for the murder of the director of Hanul children Center. CWK witnessed the beating so that Red Cry will go after the director. I have the impression that CWK asked LEH to go to the police due to the beating but LEH refused. 

In my opinion, CWK is the direct link to Red Cry. Notice that the abuse didn't come from the director's father but from the director himself which means that this time, it is about abuse among siblings. The director must have abused LEH for a long time but LEH could never go against him because LEH is not related to the director's father. And if this is true, then this means that the next topic will be about abuse among siblings. Since my theory is that the little girl with the green dress is CWK, this could be another evidence that CWK has been abused/bullied by the older daughter . Once the father discovered it, he switched their identity.  

[mushforbrains]

Oh no....the preview....yep looks like the violence is starting to spiral out of control....

 

[cyan5tarlight]

20 hours ago, bedifferent said:

I think redemption has to be earned.  Repent, self reflection, humility... all which requires the person to admit fault.  We all guess Red Cry is an organization of many so at the end, some can be saved while others are too extreme in their beliefs that they won't be.  There's a sense of self righteousness from Dr. Yoon (when he talks to CWK) or Red Cry's mocking sentiments toward its victims that made them more sadistic than pitiful.  Not every member is the same so not all should receive the same punishments by law.  It is ironic and sad that the members themselves are being manipulated and abused for their seemingly noble intentions.

Indeed. There can be no real forgiveness without repentance first. Someone's situation may be pitiable, but until they realize the error of their ways, redemption is still out of their reach. That's an interesting take on it, though, that varying members of Red Cry, or at least the Razorhead website, are varying degrees of culpable in the matter. There are probably some that are there who don't agree with killing the parents, but rather advocate for a less extreme solution, wheras there are others who have blithely swan-dived off the deep end into full extremism. It's a sliding scale, for sure.

 

 

20 hours ago, bedifferent said:

Eun Ho is a talented artist.  Wouldn't it be out of character (or an insult) to childishly draw crayon marks on the victim or at the crime scenes?  The culprit seems very crude in his actions.  I don't think the violent person is Eun Ho. 

You make an interesting point. I interpreted the childish crayon marks to mirror the marks on the table and the walls in the hidden room, to symbolize the victim's neglected children are also getting their revenge on the person who wronged them, in a way. It's completely separate from any drawing ability the culprit may or may not have. At least, that's how I took it, this is a valid interpretation, too.

 

 

20 hours ago, bedifferent said:

What happened to Seok Woo's mom?  If she managed to turn her life around, what does it mean to Red Cry's theory of these lepers and its mission?  Will she come back to the story?

I've been wondering that myself. If their intention was to kill her, they failed miserably, so wouldn't they try again at some point? She escaped their "justice" after all, so they can't just let this stand. I worry about her, tbh. She did seem to come to some sort of epiphany of how shitty a parent she is due to her incident, but I don't think that would be enough for Red Cry. I hope the police are continuing to monitor her, just in case.

 

 

THAT PREVIEW THOUGH I'M STILL REELING. Good to have confirmation that Jiheon is still alive and kicking, though considerably worse for the wear, poor guy. I'm shook that we were all right about our suspicions about Eunho still being abused into  adulthood, though, I more than half expected the show to dynamite that theory. (I mean, I suppose Mr. Director could have lost control that one time and Wookyung just happened to stumble across the scene, but somehow, I doubt it.) I'm curious as to why Wookyung just so happened to be there in the middle of the night(?) while this was all going down, though. Did the Girl in the Green Dress alert her to it? She has seemed to show up multiple times around Eunho, come to think of it. First in the greenhouse, and then when Wookyung was looking around for clues as to Sukwoo's identity. I know we all assumed that it was because Wookyung was having her miscarriage/investigating a case of child neglect, but what if it was actually GDG showing her another abused person who needed help? She led her to Jiheon in the charnel house after all, and we know Jiheon more than likely suffered abuse in his past, too.

 

On the bright side, it does look like Wheelchair Grandpa is innocent of any untoward shenanigans, at least for right now, and that Eunho doesn't have sexual abuse to add to his list of baggage, thank God. After some more thought, my feelings are that if one of our main cast was sexually abused at sometime in their pasts, then the most likely candidate is Sooyoung, especially given that she was already sexually assaulted once in the show (and her reaction to that was very telling).

 

Did anyone else notice that Eunho never makes so much as a single sound while the Director is beating him? He doesn't cry out, he doesn't whimper, he doesn't even try to defend himself or fight back. He just lies there and takes it. How many times must this have happened to him over the years for that to be his reaction to someone violently assaulting him? He reacted the same way when Wookyung slapped him in the greenhouse all that time ago, now that I go back and look at that scene again. He went very quiet and very still, he didn't retaliate or even back away out of arm's reach, he just stood there silently and almost looked like he fully expected Wookyung to keep on hitting him. (He looked like he was about to cry the entire time Wookyung was bandaging his wounds, too, my heart broke into 4 dozen little pieces. He's probably never ever had someone look after him like that before or even care what he was going through; he's always had to pick up the pieces himself and bear everything in silence.)

 

Can someone verify whether or not it was actually Mr. Director that was murdered, though? My impression just from the clips was that it was actually Siwan's father that they found murdered, and they mentioned the children's center because they found a book of poetry that came from there. My initial theory was that maybe it was originally Eunho's book, which he gifted to Siwan at some point just like he gave the lollipop to Hana, and Jiheon pounced on that and was all like "WELP, case closed, everyone! Time to issue a warrant!" Though, if it happened at the same time as Eunho was getting the richard simmons kicked out of him, then Wookyung can probably vouch for him.

 

If it was Mr. Director that was murdered, though, I don't think Eunho is the culprit. Eunho's probably put up with this kind of treatment for years, likely ever since he was a child if Wheelchair Grandpa took an interest in him while he was still in the orphanage and his son (who would have probably been at least in his late teens at the time) was the jealous/sadistic type even then. Why in the world would Eunho decide to snap now of all times, when the police are walking in and out of the center constantly and have it under intense surveillance? Especially when there's one detective in particular just praying for any excuse at all to lock Eunho up and throw the key into the Marianas Trench? It'd be probably the stupidest thing anyone's done in this series to date, and believe me, that is saying something. It just doesn't add up. Even if someone coerced him into doing it, it still doesn't add up. There has to be some other explanation.

[ktcjdrama]

Judging from the clothes the next victim is wearing, I doubt it is Siwan's father nor the Director. But the preview did mention the person having association with Haneul Center. 

After the new preview, I am quite confident to say EH is not RC, or the person who killed the latest victim. Don't know why, just a strong feeling that he is innocent. 

[bebebisous33]

@ktcjdrama @cyan5tarlight LEH is not the culprit for the next murder but I feel that he might be the reason why this person was killed. My thought is that Red Cry wanted to avenge LEH for the abuse but since it was not well planned, LEH ended up as the main suspect. In my opinion, Red Cry has changed his MO. In the past, he used the investigation to close the case (suicide, murder) but since he knows that the police is aware of his/her existence, he/she doesn't feel the need to hide any longer. Moreover, his hatred for the abusers has been really unleashed that's why he/she doesn't try to find any scapegoat. If my suppositions are correct, then it also reveals that the victims of abuse become victims for a second time: now they become the murder suspect.

 

Happy new year 2019!! 

[howling]

Ugh I know we’ve all been speculating that LEH was abused but actually seeing him still actually being abused made me angry, and if we are correct that he was being abused since childhood that makes everything so much worse, my blood is boiling. If RC found out abt it and avenged him this makes a really interesting turn in story, so far it was only people who are abusing children at the moment that were punished. But it might not be the director who was murdered. Anyway I Can’t wait to see the next episodes, I think we will have a lot to discuss. 

 

[bebebisous33]

I have been thinking about the hallucinations of CWK. I do think that she represents CWK herself, the girl who was abused  and neglected in her childhood. First, the visions are a signal that she needs to look into her past but they symbolize too that CWK is close to someone who has been abused. So her inner self (the visions) is the tool that helps her to recognize someone who share the same bad experience. If we look back, she often appeared when it is linked to an abused child. Notice that just before she had her first vision, she had received a call from Si Wan's mother announcing that they would stop getting counseling from her. Sure, the boy who died in the car accident was himself a neglected child. To me, her hallucinations always have a double meaning : if CWK ignores Si Wan's case, then something terrible might happen to him. Then the boy appeared and died in front of her... 

When she met LEH for the first time, the girl appeared behind him indicating that LEH was an abused child himself, but right in that moment she started having a miscarriage. Another third example: CWK had decided to stop looking into the identity of the little girl and at the same time, Ha Na was about to call her because she was scared. At the cemetary, she had just buried the little boy and felt remorse and grief, yet at the same time, she was about to meet JH who used to be beaten by his mother. 

To conclude, her "hallucinations" are here to help her. Sure, she was first confused and looked like a crazy person but the secret is the reason why she started having these hallucinations. It happened before she hurt the boy... which makes me think that Si Wan's case must be similar to her own past. Her inner self realized that but she as a person has not got aware of it yet.

The more I think about it, the more I have the impression that Red Cry knows her secret and past hence he/she uses her as his/her rally figure. If I am not wrong, then CWK could symbolize every single form of abuse as she experienced each of them:

- the neglected child

- the hidden child who was not registered like Ha Na

- the physical and mental abuse from the mother

- the physical abuse coming from a sibling 

- even the sexual abuse from the "father" which was covered up by the mother/stepmother

@liddi @ktcjdrama @howling @selenette @cyan5tarlight @gaby81  @mrsj3n @larus   

[akiera]

I was actually surprised that stepmom told CWK that sekyung avoided her touch. She even insisted that when CWK brushed away the gesture as part of her seizure. I don't doubt stepmom has some dark side but if so why did she revealed about it to cwk?

 

I am really afraid for Siwan and his family though. If things go wrong nobody including CWK, jiheon or even Siwan will be able to sleep peacefully. Usually, every case ends according to CWK's wish.

I still stand by the theory that the GDG is related to cwk's mental health not a fairy or premonition.

[partyon]

@bebebisous33 I 100% agree with the fact that the GGD (girl in the green dress ) is a memory from her past as well as a warning or premonition of another abused child. I also think that GGD's appearance is there to warn her to act/react. I think that is the theory I had from the beginning of the show, and I am still standing behind it.

 

I do not know necessarily yet if the child is CWK or CSK. In the beginning of the drama I was convinced that GGD was CWK's inner child, but as the show has progressed I for some reason am more and more inclined to believe she could very well be CSK. A few reasons why I believe so:

• Si Wan saw a girl in a red dress, I believe she probably might have been his sister judging from his reactions - wouldn't it make sense that GGD be CWK's sister too?
• CSK reacted very strongly to the drawing of the GGD, she knew her for sure - I feel like she recognized her younger self and had a flashback of abuse/trauma - that is why her memories are coming back so strongly. Maybe that is why she is shunning the stepmom's touch because she is remembering things? She is in great distress at the end of the last episode. Poor CSK.
• CWK remembered receiving the dress as a gift from her mother(?), yet it was a girl that was younger who was pushed in the dress
• Si Wan said the picture of GGD looked like CWK, but then again sisters often have similar features

@akiera I am also very worried about Si Wan and his family after the foolish(?) choice of choosing a real case as Red Cry's bait....

 

 

[selenette]

@bebebisous33 Whether or not Red Cry knew about Cha Woo-kyung's buried past or only observed her behavior and made deductions from that, they have indeed been using her to project their objection against child abuse. Perhaps because, as I analyzed before,

• they were probably abused children themselves
• or were eyewitnesses to such abuse or
• were involved in such abuse and then withdrew from it. 

 

The main point is, if I combine both sociological and psycho-social standpoints to see this criminal(s):  there are elements of both helplessness and anger against a male parent or parental figure in the crimes, judging from the M.O (the escalating levels of sadism against the perceived more abusive males).

 

 

EDIT 1:

So far, the female victims were spared from sadistic murders. Additionally, I believe there was  persuasion or manipulation involved beforehand, as opposed to direct assault. 

 

• In the case of Park Ji-hye (the fentanyl-fire murder), they made sure that the doctor injected her with fentanyl first before killing her, rendering her unconscious or dead (the opioid is a very potent one). She was ambushed but not injured. 
• In the case of Lee Hye-sun (the inhaler murder), they made sure that they didn't assault her directly but killing her by asphyxiation (destroying her inhaler). 
• In the case of Min Ha-jung (the leap suicide), she was psychologically pressured to suicide. 
• In the case of Choi Mi-sun (the hit and run case), Red Cry stopped pursuing her after she was severely injured. 

 

EDIT 2 (to elaborate based on @liddi's input)

• In the case of Ahn Seok-won (charcoal briquette murder), the number of charcoal  briquettes and the type of sleeping pills determined whether or not he was killed faster than Park Ji-hye. But these were unspecified. In general, charcoal briquette poisoning in a small car takes 45-90 minutes to happen. 

 

 

These, in my opinion, indicate that the criminal(s)' sense of atrocity against male parent/parental figures is stronger than it is against the female ones.

 

EDIT 3

Or, there could be more than one killer, with one of these killers displaying markedly increasing levels of sadism against the supposedly abusive male parents or parental figures. 

 

 

To conclude, even if there were female abusers in the criminals' past,  their share of blame is smaller in the criminal(s)' mindset, compared to the male ones. 

[partyon]

16 minutes ago, selenette said:

The main point is, if I want to combine both sociological and psycho-social standpoints to see this criminal(s),  there are elements of both helplessness and anger against a male parent or parental figure in the crimes, judging from the M.O (with the escalating levels of sadism and the way in which the more abusive male victims were killed). 

@selenette Good catch on how the male victim was killed in a more sadistic way, thus probably meaning that Red Cry has more animosity towards male figures!

 

The first victim was burned in her car. As far as I have understood, burning to death is an excruciating way to die and will inflict a lot of suffering on the victim. If I remember correctly, she was drugged which of course might have lessened her pain?

Ha Na's mom suffocated to death, which probably was very scary and a painful way to go.

Bit Na's mom had according to the autopsy doctor also been in massive pain before she died from the fall. Maybe had she jumped from a higher place, death would have been quicker. But it seems Red Cry chose the place and egged Bit Na's mom to jump.

Somehow I feel like these deaths were very sadistic in their own ways, too.

 

What are your thoughts about the way the females died and what that could tell us about the killer/killers?

 

Thanks in advance @selenette It's very interesting to get sociological and psycho-social views about this drama, so I appreciate it if you are able to give us more insight to the background and minds of the killer(s).

 

 

 

[bebebisous33]

@selenette @partyon I do feel the same: he/she is far more brutal and vicious against men which makes me wonder about Red Cry's gender. To me, it looks like we have to deal with a female perpetrator. Striking is that JH is rather thinking, this is the work of a man. He suspected LEH twice in the past... and he will suspect him a third time again, especially after the last encounter where he was beaten up. Nonetheless, a minion could have been sent to mislead JH. I have the impression too that the person witnessed abuse and was herself a perpetrator but came to withdrew from it. This could be indeed SK. However, how could SK have been faking a vegetative state for two years? On the other hand, CWK wondered how SK had no bed sore. She was so well kept, then she even noticed SK's good complexion to which the aid replied that she would bring SK outside each day. But all these observations were not random in my opinion. And this is where our psychiatrist could become the missing piece. What if he uses hypnosis and drug in order to fake a vegetative state? We have already realized that Red Cry is not working alone.

[liddi]

A very Happy and blessed New Year to everyone!

 

Very quickly since with the New Year means real life is calling again...

 

@bebebisous33 You raise really interesting points with regards to how each case we've seen so far possibly relate to the form of abuse CWK has experienced in her youth. For me, the girl in the green dress, while very possibly linked to her own past, remains an otherworldly intervention of sorts, which no measure of instinct on the part of CWK based on her suppressed past could have known - from the fatal encounter with Seok Woo, to finding Ha Na's mother in the room above her office. I cannot explain it any other way, though I would gladly be proven wrong as long as the scriptwriter gives us a logical explanation by the end of the drama.

 

@selenette Thank you for sharing your analysis with us! I do beg to differ though - not all the male victims suffered before they died. From what I remember, ASW who repeatedly abused his own daughter for insurance compensation, was already unconscious from being drugged before he died of suffocation in the car from the burning charcoal. The level of brutality appears to have escalated only with GSH, which I wonder has to do with either Red Cry's personal connection with the abused child, or the kind of crimes perpetrated by GSH.

Perhaps I am in the minority but I do not feel any cause for concern for Shiwan's family. The moment KJH went after Red Cry at the pick-up location, it was obvious that the whole thing was merely a setup. As such, I believe Red Cry would no longer entertain the possibility that there was any truth to the case CWK presented on the bulletin board. From the preview, assuming I understood the poorly translated English subs, the gateway to the bulletin board is now down, which is clear indication Red Cry is already alerted to the fact the police are on to him. As for LEH's abuse at the hand of the director, his words to CWK asking her not to interfere could mean that he already knows judgment is coming, whether through himself or someone else whom he is already very much aware of.

 

Another thing - I am not yet convinced that MHJ's invitation to CWK to join the Red Cry site is something Red Cry is privy to, but rather MHJ herself's last request to CWK to get down to the bottom of what is going on through access to the secret organisation.

 

One last thing - I do not think the crayon scribbles on GSH's back indicates the perpetrator not to be LEH. Rather, it is the perpetrator's way of channeling Ha Na during that final judgment over her sorry excuse for a father with the scribbles similar to the ones CWK discovered in the room above the slaughterhouse where Ha Na was kept under lock and key.

 

 

Guess what? It's Wednesday tomorrow! Yay!

[larus]

4 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

I have been thinking about the hallucinations of CWK. I do think that she represents CWK herself, the girl who was abused  and neglected in her childhood.

 

It is like something in her subconscious wants to surface. The subconscious reaches out to the conscious parts of our psyche in a number of different ways.  The abused is there (a trauma of all kind),  she repressed a lot of her feelings and I want to see the moment of her awakening, when she will remember anything. It will be hard for her but it is necessary.  I don`t want her sister to die. Se Kyung had a sad life too. Both need healing.

 

4 hours ago, akiera said:

I was actually surprised that stepmom told CWK that sekyung avoided her touch. She even insisted that when CWK brushed away the gesture as part of her seizure. I don't doubt stepmom has some dark side but if so why did she revealed about it to cwk?

 I was surprised too but in the same time it is understandable. She has a secret because we saw how she panicked when Woo kyung was looking for the truth but regarding Se Kyung, maybe she doesn`t feel that Se kyung has reasons to dislike her. She is a cold woman who doesn`t express her feelings at all and I did not see a comfort gesture from her at all, a smile, a warm touch. It was not easy to grow up with her as a mother but she sees herself in a positive light. Heo Jin-Ok did "her job" as a mother, took care of her when she was in coma.  She was surprised that Se Kyung has rejected her. I wish Se Kyung will wake up and we will see why she is not in good terms with her stepmother.

 

7 minutes ago, liddi said:

Perhaps I am in the minority but I do not feel any cause for concern for Shiwan's family. The moment KJH went after Red Cry at the pick-up location, it was obvious that the whole thing was merely a setup. As such, I believe Red Cry would no longer entertain the possibility that there was any truth to the case CWK presented on the bulletin board.

 

I don`t feel concern for Si wan`s family unless there is enough evidence that his parents are abusive. Red Cry will realize that it was a set up but I don`t think it matters much for him. He still believes that he hasn`t left traces to identify him and if the case is interesting for him, he will dig for more informations. From what we saw, Si wan`s parents are not innocent. 

[liddi]

28 minutes ago, larus said:

I don`t feel concern for Si wan`s family unless there is enough evidence that his parents are abusive. Red Cry will realize that it was a set up but I don`t think it matters much for him. He still believes that he hasn`t left traces to identify him and if the case is interesting for him, he will dig for more informations. From what we saw, Si wan`s parents are not innocent. 

 

@larus I agree that Shiwan's parents might be in danger if they are found to be guilty of abuse. Which then leads me to wonder if the police left actual materials of Shiwan and his family at the drop-off point. If that were the case, this would mean gross miscalculation and irresponsibility on their part.

 

Why oh why is this drama given so little recognition by the industry apart from honouring Kim Sun Ah's amazing performance? It is hands down one of the most brilliantly written and all-round excellent dramas I've seen so far, and hopefully will remain excellent to the end.

[selenette]

@partyon @liddiI edited my previous post and elaborated more on the female victims.

 

Interesting Notes (that I still have to rethink)

 

A. Ahn Seok-won and Park Ji-hye

 

• In An Seok-won (the charcoal briquettes murder)'s and Park Ji-hye (the fentanyl-gasoline murder)'s  the M.Os are similar: they were both incapacitated, trapped in their cars, and then killed. However:

Spoiler

 

• Depending on the grade, fentanyl can kill in only 3-5 minutes after being injected, since it is a far more potent opioid than heroin and morphine. 
• Park Yong-tae stored a high dose of fentanyl in his house, many of the ampoules were already emptied (Episode 3). 
• Therefore, there's a probability that Park Ji-hye was already dead or dying before or when her car was doused in gasoline.
• She was ambushed by Park Yong-tae but didn't sustain any serious injury from it.
• On the other hand, burnt charcoal briquettes in a sealed space (the size of a car) could kill in approximately 45-90 minutes, with a 15 minutes window of unconsciousness 
• Ahn Seok-won's sleeping pill type and dosage were unspecified. It was only stated that it was in "high dosage".  Yet he'd been taking it for three months (Episode 11), so his body was accustomed to the drug.
• Ahn Seok-won was also an alcoholic, so the high BAC level wasn't the instant cause of his death. 
• Despite the dangerous effect of sleeping pills and alcohol combination, overdose of this type doesn't always result in death. 

 

Arguably, Park Ji-hye's murder was faster and more merciful than Ahn Seok-won's. 

 

***

B. Park Yong-tae and Min Ha-jung

• Park Yong-tae (the stabbing suicide)'s  M.O is similar to Min Ha-jung (the leap suicide)'s. Furthermore:
  Spoiler

   

  • They were both involved with Red Cry (hence Red Cry's standpoint of them as peers or inner circle) 
  • Both induced suicides were committed in broad daylight, indicating the criminal(s)' certainty that these acts would be decidedly unstoppable.
  • The timing of these induced suicides also indicated that the criminal's free or more flexible time is limited to night time, and that it is difficult for them to mobilize in broad daylight (fixed working hours? disability? iIlness?)
  • It is likely that, at those hours it was more viable for the criminal(s) to manipulate these two victims into suicide rather than killing them directly. 

 

Strangely, Park Yong-tae suicide's M.O. is decidedly more gruesome than Min Ha-jung.

 

Significantly, the M.O. is determined by a person's personality. Nevertheless in cases of induced suicides, the role of the instigator (the criminal) in determining the viable method must be considered. 

 

For example

Spoiler

This criminal(s) psychologically manipulated Park Young-tae to choose stabbing as his suicide M.O through suggestions. 

 

Sources

Spoiler

 

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/opioids/fentanyl.html

 

https://drugabuse.com/opiates-overdose-and-permanent-brain-damage/

 

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2014.06.026

 

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-for-a-person-to-die-due-to-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-with-coal-charcoal-briquettes

 

https://m.scmp.com/article/484827/taking-easy-way-out

 

https://barnard.edu/asap/resources/blood-alcohol

 

https://www.alcohol.org/mixing-with/sleeping-pills/

 

[foreverempress]

I believe that CWK is having genuine premonitions; it is possible. Even with my clinical research background I can tell you that science is not all seeing, knowing, or compassing. Science is a way of trying to discover the truth and how things work; it is not all empirical and empiricism may be better and find some solid truths in certain cases, but it is not guarantee of accuracy of universal truths (that will be contingent on that hypothesis). I said that to say that some people have the ability premonitions of themselves, others, etc. whether it is is real time or through dreams. It does not have to be a person that is absolutely impeccable in reading other's behavior and coming to logical conclusions based on that (cause and effect); this is not Criminal Minds. There are some people in this world that are spiritually gifted and those who can or cannot accept it will be based on their core beliefs/worldview. Those that tend to reject anything that maybe considered supernatural or spiritual; they will always looks to natural causation or phenomena. Even if it cannot be explained , scientists through out the science are taught to use a simple explanation even if those explanations do not explain what is happening. Some people have that ability that confounds everything around them that is not a self-fulled prophecy; just because it cannot be directly observed does not make it true.

 

Attributing everything to the brain is an easy solution since the brain is so complex(brain damage, chemical imbalances, and many medications can make it worse) will make it worse and for those that reject the supernatural, it makes them feel more comfortable in their bubble which is their core beliefs and is some instances leads to cognitive dissonance when reality appears to contradiction their belief-either that person will have to reduce the reality that is conflicting with that belief to remove the conflict (minimize) or when the reality becomes super imposing that it cannot be denied, the person may accept it because resistance becomes to distressing and causes more distress (you cannot change something you do not accept) or they will continue to deny it and endure more suffering. It is rare that people change those hardcore ingrained beliefs when presented with any evidence (evidence can be weak); it is human nature's job to be critical, that is why I tell even my patients to check the baseline facts (unless it is a true gut instinct) because if you are going to change a belief, in many cases, due diligence should be done.

 

This is the problem I see with our main characters and even in real people; they cannot see past their own worldview (core beliefs) and become unable to differentiate facts from opinions because their beliefs whether it is far left or far right; liberal or conservative; non-religious or religious; atheist or believer; scientific mind or emotional mind; sinner or saint; etc. Humans, overall, tend to demonize and minimize what they do not agree with, have a bee-hive mentality that believes it is "is vs. them" and it makes it hard to change because people tend to take that Carl Roger's approach and have too much unconditional positive regard for themselves and always attribute their motives as being pure because to believe anything less will bring unwanted feelings of discomfort. People want to live in a world that makes sense to them, even is that "sense" is wrong or perverse- it is their normal and humans with either seek and destroy anyone that does not approve or accept their normal (because others approval will reinforce their feelings and thoughts of normalcy) or humans will recoil and try to adjust to what normal truly is after that accept their abnormality. You cannot change something you do not accept and somethings will never change no matter how desperate one make become to change it; reality, even if the illusion and delusion is approved by others, will always creep in no matter what is done to suppress what is and will always be true.

 

CWK will have her visions and  she needs to truly accepts that she is having them, lose the fear of losing her child; she is not obligated to tell others because they tend to recoil into their own fears about the world, and just try to understand them as they are and not what she and others want them to be (hallucinations). Kang Ji Hun will have to be able to see broad then narrow things down he is going to have to get work with his personal beliefs and differentiate because they are distorting the case. Red Cry whether it is a single person or a group cannot give justice because of their cognitive distortion of justice-they see themselves as being right-judge, jury, and executioner.

 

What are the facts?

 

The following are some excellent academic resources  that can give you insight (always pay attention to inferences (opinions), limitations, and if they journal or source can produce facts and not simplicity; the sources are diverse, some or for or against the points I was making):

 

References

 

Van Veen, V., Krug, M. K., Schooler, J. W., & Carter, C. S. (2009). Neural activity predicts attitude change in cognitive dissonance. Nature Neuroscience, 12(11), 1469-1474. doi:10.1038/nn.2413

 

Cooper, J. M. (2007). Cognitive dissonance : 50 years of a classic theory. 

 

Kheirbek, R. E. (2017). premonitions. Family Medicine, 49(7), 563.

 

Dossey, L. (2008). premonitions. Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing, 4(2), 83-90. doi:10.1016/j.explore.2007.12.008

 

Griffin, J. D., & Fletcher, P. C. (2017). Predictive processing, source monitoring, and psychosis. Annual Review of Clinical Psychology, 13(1), 265-289. doi:10.1146/annurev-clinpsy-032816-045145

 

Rytovaara, M. (2015). Demons, voices and virtual realities in adolescence-an exploration of zeitgeist, culture and cultural complexes. The Journal Of Analytical Psychology, 60(2), 179–197.

 

Lindstrom, C. M., Cann, A., Calhoun, L. G., & Tedeschi, R. G. (2013). The relationship of core belief challenge, rumination, disclosure, and sociocultural elements to posttraumatic growth.Psychological Trauma: Theory, Research, Practice, and Policy, 5(1), 50-55. doi:10.1037/a0022030