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cyan5tarlight

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  1. @liddiAh, okay, thank you for clearing that up! What I basically heard was "We can't hold Taejoo responsible for screwing up his brother even more than he already was because he was screwed up himself" and hence I was like "I respectfully! disagree!!" But if you were merely trying to explain his actions instead of excuse them, then we have no problems, s'all good. ^^d Thanks for the timeline analysis! I admit that the timeline for the series has kind of confused me throughout, mostly because everyone always seems REALLY COLD even when it seems to be supposed to take place over the course of about a year. But I chalk that up to a fall-winter shooting schedule and not wanting your poor actors to develop frostbite. As for the other timeline muddles, it's a bit unfortunate that the some of the dates were fudged that badly. You'd think someone from production would have caught at least some of those. :/ But ah well, it's not super distracting, and doesn't detract from the story itself, so I'll let it slide. BTW, does anyone happen to have any other drama recommendations that someone who really enjoyed Children of Nobody might like? I'm close to being done with Legend of the Blue Sea, and I'd like some other dramas to add to my queue. For a bit more context, I prefer character-based dramas, and any genre is fine with me, though I'm not a huge fan of romance. I don't mind it when it's done well, but even then, I do prefer there be other interesting aspects to the story than just the main couple's relationship. My favorite drama so far that I've watched has been Goblin, because I loved the modern fantasy aspects of it and the characters were all so interesting and likable and had great chemistry with each other. I also enjoyed Pinocchio and Healer quite a lot. I've heard of this show called "Duel" that sounded interesting, that I was thinking about starting, but any other recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
  2. @liddi You raise some interesting points. What Eunho did was wrong, no doubt, no debating it. But at the same time, given his upbringing and the awfulness he had to live with nearly every day of his entire life, especially when faced with the possibility of the same thing happening to the innocent children he adored so much... well, honestly, how much can anyone really hate him for doing it when you get right down to it? On the other hand, I suppose my hangup with Taejoo - tragic backstory notwithstanding - stems from the fact that he is, ostensibly, a trained professional. One who has (one would think) studied cases similar to his brother's and Wookyung's and Hana's in preparation for his medical practice, who should know how to treat them without resorting to first and second degree murder. Basically, my opinion of him boils down to "he, at least, should have known better." What if someone came to a doctor bleeding out everywhere from a sucking chest wound, and the doctor just slapped a band-aid on it and sent them on their merry way, resulting in that person's death? Would I not be allowed to be indignant about such blatant malpractice, no matter how good the intentions of the person performing said malpractice might have been? So what about a trained psychiatrist deciding that the best treatment for a suffering individual who came to him in good faith seeking peace and healing was to have them go commit multiple cases of homicide? I mean, it's definitely not a crime to be traumatized or to have baggage, and there's no shame in not being able to help someone get better, even if you do all you know how to, but surely Taejoo would have known what kind of cases he'd possibly be handling when he opened his practice. If he couldn't handle it, then, idk, maybe he should have thought about going into a different profession. Again, I would never hold it against anyone for having trauma in their lives or skeletons in their closets, but I find it completely irresponsible for someone who is obviously this mentally unstable and damaged to place themselves in a position where they could cause untold damage to others because they overestimated their abilities due to their own hubris. I know I would be an absolutely awful surgeon because I can't stand the sight of guts and viscera, so going into that field of medicine makes no sense for me, and I'd probably do more harm than good there. If, despite all that, I became a surgeon, and then killed someone on the operating table because I wasn't cut out for the job and was distracted with, say, family troubles to boot, then their death would still be my fault regardless of how noble my intentions may have been or how jacked up the issues I was facing in my personal life was. When someone puts their life and well-being, be it physical or mental, in your hands, trusting you to help them because you are the expert and advertise yourself as such, then you should be held responsible if something you did or failed to do caused them distress or harm even inadvertently. It's just common sense and basic business practice. Plus, speaking as someone who's personally suffered from years of debilitating and agonizing mental illness, seeing a trained, professional therapist fail multiple patients this horribly just makes me livid on a deep, fundamental level. And I admit, this could just be a personal hot button of mine, and not everyone feels the same way about it. But for me, seeing someone who has actively placed himself in a position of medical authority not only abusing the trust of his patients (he actively invaded Siwan and Hana's minds without their consent for God's sake! Does no one else see a problem with this??), but in some cases making their lives actively worse rubs me in all the wrong ways. I do concede that after I wrote my last post and left for work, it did occur to me that the reasoning behind Taejoo not physically removing Eunho from his abusive environment could be because Eunho simply could not bring himself to leave, no matter what Taejoo tried. I just wish that the series would have told or shown this to us more explicitly if that was the case. Some sort of confirmation that the two talked or spent time with each other beyond their vigilante mission, that they actually had some kind of brotherly relationship that went beyond mere sentimental familial obligation, that Taejoo truly didn't leave Eunho alone in his misery and pain in that horrible environment and just expect him to take care of it himself after rejecting all of Taejoo's offers to leave. Even an extra line or two of dialogue could have helped. As it stands, just judging from Eunho's outburst to Wookyung at the police station it sounded like Taejoo's advice essentially boiled down to "You're blind and brainwashed, but you'll see I'm right about your 'family' eventually, just you wait. And when that happens, don't say I didn't tell you so." At least, that's how it came across to me. I agree that it was very brave of the writer to make things such a grey area when it came to Red Cry. I very much appreciate such nuanced writing as well, you don't see that much from fiction nowadays. ^^ All this being said, though, feel free to have whatever viewpoints you like on Taejoo's character. Due to my personal experiences and beliefs regarding expectations for people who voluntarily place themselves in positions of authority that others are expected to defer to, I will always find a character like Taejoo far less sympathetic than someone like Eunho. However, this isn't to say that you can't have a completely different opinion than the one I hold due to your interpretation of the the character, and that's perfectly fine. Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion!
  3. @liddi @bedifferent Thank you both for your thoughts as well. Well said! I agree. And you both are definitely correct in saying that in Eunho was working with Taejoo, I didn't mean to imply that I'm trying to undermine his personal agency in what he ended up doing with his life. He did ultimately always have a choice. It's not like Taejoo put a gun to his head and said "Yes, you WILL go out and kill these people, or else" or anything like that. It's just that, as bedifferent said, And that's exactly why I have far more of a problem with Taejoo than I do with Eunho. When faced with his brother's trauma, Taejoo was fully capable of saying "Nah man, we're getting you therapy, and we're going to tank that stupid center once and for all, and then you're going to come live with me and have the happy, fulfilling life you should have had a long time ago." But he didn't. Eunho was essentially a broken, traumatized child living in a grown man's body. He was poor, uneducated, socially awkward, knew nothing but pain and abuse and could comprehend no other way to escape from it except for death. Taejoo, on the other hand, was a fully-functional adult with the best education money could buy, charming, suave, and insightful, who had grown up with a loving home and a loving family. If anyone could have set Eunho straight and shown him that there was indeed a better way to live, it would have been Taejoo. Not saying it wouldn't have been difficult, because the road to healing never is, but I firmly do believe that if Taejoo had kept at it, kept showing Eunho how awful the Songs were, how he didn't need to be under their thrall, this isn't how healthy people live, he would have gotten through to him eventually. But he didn't. It's like he gave up and just left Eunho to sort out his own problems with the Songs, like "Well, if it gets bad enough, I'm sure he'll leave eventually. This is something he's Got To Do Himself." Nevermind the fact that Siwan certainly didn't ask him to go and murder his own dad, and he was more than willing to go knock off Stepmom for Wookyung. Eunho doesn't even get that much? Really? (Not that I'm advocating for murder, I just find the whole situation darkly ironic and more than a little hypocritical.) And I'm just not convinced, rage notwithstanding, that Eunho would have necessarily become a killer if Taejoo hadn't been there egging him on and assuring him repeatedly that what he was doing was right and just. In addition to all that, even though they were technically partners in this endeavor, it's hard for me to not see a colossal power imbalance between the two brothers, not only with the vast age difference between them and the emphasis Korea places on age hierarchies (i.e. respect your elders above all else, do everything your elders say even if you disagree, and in turn, your elders will take care of you and not steer you wrong), but also their socioeconomic status, their level of education, and the way one was so much better at reading, understanding, and manipulating people than the other. Even if Taejoo really believed he was helping and doing the right thing by encouraging his brother down this path, and even if Eunho went with him willingly, I still can't see their relationship as anything but very unbalanced and exploitative. Even if Taejoo didn't necessarily intend it to be that way, it's definitely how it comes across. IDK, that's just how I see it, though. One of the great things about this show is that it leaves so much up to the audience's interpretation and leaves us all to make our own judgement about everything, and that's what makes analyzing everything so fun. ^^
  4. Which was on screen for all of 4 seconds, that you would have to pause, go back, and enhance (plus need to speak pretty fluent English if you're in the target Korean audience) if you ever wanted to know anything at all about the guy. For the main antagonist of the show, I would have expected we'd get a bit more information that that, especially given that it's coming from a very biased source, aka his adoptive father. Again, I chalk that up to the pacing near the end being rather rushed and the series not being able to spend as much time on character motivations as it wanted to, and it's not a huge deal, but it does bug me a bit Great analysis, @liddi! I really liked your thoughts on YTJ and his reasoning for becoming Red Cry. I guess what still bothers me about him, personally, is while there is this common thread of himself, Wookyung, and Siwan all thinking "I'm glad it wasn't me" when confronted with their younger sibling's abuse, there's one thing that he doesn't have in common with them. While they themselves were not the predominant targets of abuse in their households, Siwan and Wookyung still had to live and grow up in that toxic environment and contend with loads of emotional and psychological abuse, even if physical abuse wasn't usually part of the equation. Yes, there's still that guilt and sorrow that comes from just being glad that it wasn't you being hurt, but I think that was also fueled by the fact that they both knew every hour of every day it could have very easily be them at any time if their younger sibling didn't exist to take the brunt of the punishment. YTJ, however, did not have that problem. He was adopted very quickly from the orphanage, and by all accounts, the rest of his childhood was as happy and stable as his adoptive parents could make it, even if his mother did end up abandoning him . He was thousands of miles removed from his brother's abuse while it was happening. Even when he got back to Korea, it's not as if he was or would ever be in any danger from the Head Director. And by the way he was so shocked and devastated from the news of what had happened to Eunho, it's not as if he was expecting that's what would have been the cause of his brother's nightmares. I completely accept and understand his rage and grief for his brother, it's what anyone would feel if they were in his position, I'm sure. I guess I'm just still not clear where he makes the transition from simple grief and rage to deciding to become a serial killer mastermind if he didn't already have some psychotic tendencies beforehand. He even said outright that he was the one who planned and orchestrated everything, and Eunho was merely the one to carry those plans out. (Which makes me even more sorry for Eunho, tbh. If his smart, talented, respected hyung, someone so much older and more educated and better with people than him, was egging him on and encouraging him to do this, saying that this was for the good of the children he loved so much, then no wonder he went along with it without much fuss. Surely he could trust his hyung, right? His hyung wouldn't steer him wrong. Right...?) In light of all that, YTJ's stated motivations would almost be more understandable if he had stayed in Korea and grown up alongside his little brother, IMHO. Eunho would still have been the one to attract all of the Head Director's "attention," but YTJ would have experienced some that environment with him, known something of what his brother was going through but also been glad it wasn't him to experience it, just like Wookyung and Siwan did with their siblings. Unlike those two, though, he eventually took action and lashed out at an unfeeling and uncaring world, and did the only thing he could think of to avenge himself and his suffering younger brother as well as "save" other kids which were going through the same things they did when they were children. To me, that would make him much more understandable and sympathetic. As it stands, the explanation we have now isn't a bad one, it just seems more of an excuse for a deeply disturbed guy who had no business being a psychiatrist in the first place to let loose his psychotic and controlling tendencies while convincing himself that he was also "helping" people than it does a valid Freudian Excuse. But that's just my two cents.
  5. I do actually agree with the fact that we probably did need a bit more backstory on YTJ. I mean, what we have is enough to make it not completely out of left field, and the story still works well enough, but yeah, just what was his deal? Wookyung even mentioned that while a lot of people would mentally assent to the idea that someone deserves death, when a gun is placed in their hands, they wouldn't be able to pull the trigger. So what made YTJ different? Or was it because he WASN'T the one actually doing the killing that he was able to keep his convictions for so long? It's definitely messed up that he used and manipulated other people - including his own abused, traumatized brother - into doing his dirty work for him by utilizing his knowledge of the human psyche, and only resorted to killing when he had no more minions left. No matter how good his initial intentions might have been, he seems like a pretty awful person when you get right down to it, and I have little sympathy for him. Maybe I'd feel differently if we had a little more to go on, but just judging from what little the series showed us, that's my impression of him. I didn't get the impression that Wookyung wanted a relationship with her stepmother at all after finding out what had happened. As for allowing Eunseo and her stepsister to still have a relationship with her, I think it had more to do with what Sekyung #2 said when telling her mom she would be a stem cell donor. She has to live and actively try to make up for the years of terrible treatment Sekyung #2 had to endure; dying won't solve anything, and it's the cowardly way out. It's way harder to face up to your mistakes and look at the people you've hurt every day than to just die and get it over with. Now stepmom knows that Wookyung knows what she did, and she'll be reminded of it every time she looks at her stepdaughter. I highly doubt Wookyung would ever leave Eunseo in the room alone with her grandmother, either, despite her decision to still allow them to interact. So it's not as if the narrative is saying everything is happy sunshine and rainbows and everyone skips off into the sunset hand in hand, there's still a LOT of baggage that everyone has to work thorough.
  6. Whew, finally finished the last episode. I started it before going to work, then had to leave for work 20 mins before the end, so I basically spent my entire day in abject agony, lol. X'D I have to say, though there are still things I wish Mrs. Writer-Nim would have expounded upon (we'll get to those in a minute), I do personally think that this final episode ended remarkably well, considering all the ways it could have failed spectacularly. As others have mentioned, while it doesn't end completely on a downer note, it's a very somber ending. I do think, however, the tone of the ending matches the tone of the rest of the series was going for, even if I was personally hoping for a slightly brighter ending myself. The killer is caught, but everyone still has to live with their guilt and their trauma and the knowledge of what happened, just as we ourselves do in the real world. There's no Instant-Fix button, no way to immediately recover from trauma and forget it ever happened. The scars will always be there, even if we eventually recover. And especially in TV-Land, where it seems everything can be fixed and forgotten in the span of a time-skip and a few quick cuts, I think it's helpful to occasionally remind ourselves that sometimes, healing takes time. And for some people, healing never comes, because their lives were cut short too soon for them to find it. I am very happy with how Wookyung's storyline panned out, even though it was bittersweet at best. She found closure, and she took the high road and didn't succumb to her rage and need for vengeance. Near the end, when she told Red Cry she wanted revenge on her stepmother, my blood ran cold, and I honestly thought for a few moments that she would actually go through with it and this was how the show would end, so as you can imagine, I breathed an immense sigh of relief when the lights switched on and revealed Red Cry for who he really was. I'm glad, also, that she took the time to pay her respects to Eunho, even leaving him flowers. I think she realized that their stories were very much a "there but for the grace of God go I" situation, and the only reason she was able to pull herself out of that hell that her memories plunged her into was because she had a support network of a couple very good and supportive people (and a certain little guardian angel brain ghost), while Eunho didn't truly have anyone. Speaking of Eunho. You guys hit the nail right on the head, I think. I place the lion's share of the blame for the path Eunho went down and his eventual fate squarely on his shoulders. He was a psychiatrist, for crying out loud! If anyone was equipped to help Eunho heal from his trauma, it was him, and yet he turned his brother into an attack dog instead, a tool for him to use to exact vengeance on those he deemed deserved it, while YTJ stayed up in his safe little ivory tower and never had to get his hands dirty until said attack dog went and got himself killed trying to protect his sorry @$$. No wonder Eunho was so miserable that he eventually decided to take his own life. Even if he believed that he was doing the right thing, even if he believed that this was the way to finally get someone to love him, the existence he led must have worn away at his gentle soul until he simply couldn't take it anymore. But even though no one ever truly loved him, as @thistle said, Eunho never stopped trying to show kindness to others; he never stopped trying to get children to smile, never stopped wanting their best with his whole, entire heart. His is the most tragic story in the entire drama, I think. Yes, what happened to the other kids was awful, but at least the living ones have better lives now and the chance to recover, whereas the ones who died at least no longer had to suffer. Eunho had to live like he did for an entire quarter of a century, abandoned, used, and/or abused by everyone who should have had his best interests at heart. I just wish, more than anything else, that he would have been given that same opportunity, to live and heal and find people who loved him, too. He didn't deserve the end he was given. But I suppose that was kind of the point, wasn't it. Also, oh my GOD, that scene in the interrogation room where YTJ made Jiheon cry and tried to subtly hypnotize him made my blood boil. And right after I was listening to his measured responses to all the questions about how him not revealing how Eunho was his brother because people would jump to conclusions just like the police were doing and internally going "well, the man has a point, I have to admit," too. B| TBH, I don't feel much sympathy for YTJ as a character at all. While being abandoned by his mom was indeed awful and tragic, he at least had a good and loving adoptive home in the US, a quality education, many friends, a respected profession, everything he needed to turn out to be an upstanding member of society. And yet what does he do upon being reunited with his traumatized younger brother and discovering the horrors visited upon him? Not get him therapy, maybe plan to tank the Center (because ain't nothing wrong with Eunho's original plan to bankrupt the Head Director, tbh, I supported him fully in that endeavor) and expose the Songs for the monsters they are, maybe even offer options to abused wives and children that DON'T involve murder, no, no. Let's dive headfirst into the murder and use said traumatized little brother as the loaded gun, why not. Seriously, screw YTJ. I do wish they would have explained Jiheon's deal with his ex, and why he chooses to sleep in the bathtub constantly, but maybe they wanted to leave that up to the viewer's imagination. I will say that I do think Sooyoung's character was kind of... underutilized, though. :/ For being a main lead, she seemed more like a sidekick for most of the show, and simply served as a sounding board for Jiheon instead of feeling like her own independent character. I really wish she'd had more scenes to herself, and more time spent developing her backstory (even though I'm happy it seems like she's finally getting some help from her team). The show probably could have benefited from one more hour just to give more time to everything and not have the ending feel quite so rushed, even though the pacing was still pretty decent. They didn't show a completely different flashback, though? They simply showed Eunho and YTJ meeting for the first time, them being horribly awkward around each other (for understandable reasons), and then Eunho coming in to ask if his brother could do something about his sleep aversion. I don't think any of that contradicted each other in any way. I also didn't feel like the flashbacks with the mask contradicted themselves. It showed Eunho on the dog butcher's farm, while YTJ said that Eunho carried out the plans YTJ came up with, and then cut to YTJ wearing the mask and beating the crap out of Jiheon, while the voiceover said something about plans not always going the way you think they do. (Or some such, I don't recall the exact words.) So I never had an issue with the way the flashbacks were shot, personally. They were always pretty clear to me. Maybe they were sometimes shot in ways that were meant to be deliberately ambiguous, especially before the reveal, but I never had trouble following them. I suppose, though, if one entered with the suspicion that the show was going to be actively trying to lie to the audience the entire way through, one would be wayyyy more unlikely to trust anything on screen, so I can see where you're coming from with that. No worries! I find this kind of stuff fun as long as both parties are civil and respectful of each other's viewpoints. ^^ And word vomits are awesome, bring on the walls of text. XD It's really interesting when people have a lot to say on a certain topic because they're passionate about it. This will be a show that sticks with me for a very long time, I think. While it wasn't perfect, very few things in life are, and it handled its subject matter with a delicacy and nuance that few other shows could have pulled off. It wanted to make its audience think, and it succeeded admirably on that front. The OST was all around fantastic, even if I'm fonder of some ending songs than others, and It's been a very long time since I've seen an ensemble cast this all-around talented, including all the child actors. I'm very glad I watched it, and very grateful to the writer, director, cast, and crew for all the hard work they put in to bring the story to us. Thanks to everyone on these forums for their thoughts and observations, as well! You guys really made me feel welcome here, and I've immensely enjoyed speculating and theorizing along with all of you. I'll be sorry to say goodbye to this story and these characters (even if my heart and nerves have taken a beating over the last month), but I don't think I'm ready to do so quite yet. I have some ideas in mind for a few alternate/missing scenes that came to me while waiting for future episodes, and I want to write them out at some point. Watch this space.
  7. All I can say is, if this show ends on a downer or completely open ended note, I'm going to compose several angry letters to the writer. I mean, I'd hope they wouldn't do that and give us some sort of satisfying resolution while still keeping a few things open ended, but you never know. Too many dramas have crashed and burned during their last episode for me to feel completely at ease right now. I'm... really worried about Wookyung right now, tbh. Multiple people have pointed out how she's wearing a red coat in some of the shots when she's mostly worn neutral colors throughout the whole drama, and the way she carries herself and speaks to the stepmother... it really has warning bells going off in my head. I really hope someone will be able to pull her back from the edge before she swan dives right off of it. Maybe little brain ghost Sekyung will show up one more time, like she did when Wookyung was thinking about running over Sukwoo's mom. Perhaps it will be Jiheon, where he finally tells Wookyung what happened to his own child (since that's a plot thread that never went anywhere and needs some resolution). Either way, I really hope the series doesn't end with her taking up the mantle of Red Cry and carrying on his crusade, because that would feel like a huge letdown for sure. And I mean, Jiheon is no fool; if Eunho is dead and YTJ is behind bars, and Red Cry STILL is going after people, who is he going to suspect first? It'd be a short second season, is all I'm saying.
  8. I was wondering about that myself, actually! Even to my uneducated eyes, it did seem like she went down... really quick. I chalk it up to artistic license and the drama not wanting to make us sit through 10 minutes of her wheezing and choking and gagging. The reason I say this is because I watched a drama where someone got strangled to death on screen once, and it was over in, like, 15 seconds. It takes waaaay longer to choke someone to death in real life, I looked it up. So yeah, either she was also having an allergic reaction to something (quite possible, given all the dust and mold that was likely in such an environment), or the drama didn't want to make us watch a woman die for 20 mins straight. Or, I mean, could be both. *le shrug* I have so much anxiety from that teaser, tho, ngl. I have a feeling Wookyung mayyyyy be about to do something she'll regret regarding Stepmom. Don't do it, girl, resist the urge! Stay strong!
  9. My mistake then, I apologize. I don't know anyone with asthma or respiratory problems, so my experience with/knowledge of the condition is limited. My point was that it seemed like Hana's mother expired quite quickly when the inhaler was withheld from her, and Sora's father was so sloshed that he didn't feel a thing when he suffocated to death, so it wasn't like Eunho was trying to make them suffer or prolong their deaths. That's all I was really trying to say.
  10. Ugh, I know, that scene hurts my heart every time I remember it. He doesn't step back out of arm's reach, he doesn't retaliate, he doesn't even cry out, he just stands there and takes it in silence. In fact, he seems shocked when she doesn't continue hitting him. Knowing what we know now about his background, my heart breaks for him all the more. At least she had the good graces to apologize to him later for it (something he was definitely not used to, I'm sure), but still, he didn't deserve that. At all.
  11. @kumakumo I do definitely understand wanting justice for Eunho himself, and I hope the show gives it to us, especially if his brother was the one who pressured him down the path that he ended up taking, because he's just as much of a victim as the other people who have died because of Red Cry's crusade. My problem with not taking the flashbacks having to do with Red Cry and the murders at least mostly at face value is that if you do that, then you by association have to question every single other flashback we've seen thus far as well. Did Jiheon really have a child at some point? Are Wookyung's recollections about baby!Sekyung accurate? I don't really see anyone questioning those, but if we can't trust the flashbacks about the murders, then how do we know the show isn't messing with us concerning those as well? Either the flashbacks are a reliable source of information, or they're not, we can't have it both ways. Unless the show establishes from the start that every single person is an unreliable narrator, and that flashbacks change depending on who's telling them (as some shows and movies have actually done), then I think it's a safer bet to say that flashbacks are a reliable source of information, meant to clue the audience in to specific key events so that they can have a more accurate picture of what's going on. Because that's the thing with mysteries. Yes, you want to keep the audience on their toes and constantly second-guessing themselves, but at the same time, you want them to feel like they have all the pieces of the puzzle, that they can solve the mystery themselves if only they look hard enough, and if it turns out they were wrong in the end, they at least go "oooh, well, that makes sense, I can't believe I missed that, it was right in front of me all along!" Like the huge twist in the Sixth Sense. All the clues pointing to the reveal are given to the audience all throughout the movie, so when it happens, it comes as a big "AHA!" moment, rather than a "wait, what? That doesn't make any sense, where did this come from?" moment. So I really don't think that deliberately psyching the audience out with the murder flashbacks would be a wise decision on the part of the writer. It actually would come across not only as bad writing in general, but especially bad mystery writing. I agree about Eunho not being the one to kill the dog butcher, though. Like, he still could have done it, not discounting the possibility because I don't trust the writer as far as I can throw her, but as I've said elsewhere, if you look at the murders you can attribute to Eunho, i.e. Hana's mom, Sora's dad, the head director, they were all deaths by asphyxiation. Asthma attack for Hana's mom, carbon monoxide poisoning for Sora's dad, suffocation for the head director. All relatively quick, painless deaths, as far as deaths go. No violent altercations or torture involved. Those seem way more like someone like Eunho's style rather than the death the dog butcher had. That's another thing, though; we never see Eunho kill the head director. We don't see camera footage, or anything like that, yet I have not heard one person say "Well, he didn't actually kill him, someone else came in and did it and Eunho is only saying that he did!" Like, no, we all know he did it, even though we didn't see it. Why then would it be so hard to extrapolate that he also committed at least a couple of the other murders as well, especially if the series showed him kill them? If we all know he killed the head director, then why is it so hard to believe that he might have also killed a couple other people, albeit quickly and relatively painlessly? As for the shoes, I think @liddi posted some pictures of the pictures the police took of the shoes they recovered from Eunho's room, and the laces were indeed tied differently. Those were the head director's shoes. However, I don't discount the possibility of an accomplice also having a pair of those same shoes to hide the fact that there were multiple people at the farm, or something being hidden in the director's shoes (though you'd think the police would have already found it if that was the case). Not sure about the poems or what the writer was trying to convey by using them, tbh. It could possibly be that Eunho picked them because they were sad, and he recognized the tragedy of the situation while still believing that the culprits had to pay for their crimes, but that's just conjecture. It's not like Jiheon or Wookyung can ask Eunho about it now, either way. Maybe the writer wants the audience to decide for themselves what the poems mean. *shrug*
  12. Well said, @bedifferent. People always have a choice in how they deal with their trauma, but at the same time, if someone isn't even aware that there is another way to handle their pain, if they weren't taught that growing up or learned it as an adult, then can they be fully blamed for the coping mechanisms they use to deal with it until they do finally have the opportunity to be shown the correct way to manage their trauma? Food for thought. I also really, truly hope that the show ends with the first steps to healing taking place, for the surviving characters to begin moving on from their trauma while honoring those who died before they were able to. Perhaps that's why Eunho and Siwan's little sister were placed together in Eunho's teaser poster. It's too late for them, now, but not too late for the people whose lives they touched to start making a real difference in the world, and to make sure what happened to them doesn't happen to other children.
  13. @kumakumo While you may certainly be right about Eunho not being the culprit... idk, I'm not convinced that that's what the show's trying to convey, especially with just one episode left. After all, what about Sora's dad? We see Eunho in the car getting him drunk, we see the match dropping onto the charcoal, and we see him get out of the car and flip his hood up. I mean, that looks like pretty damning evidence to me. We also have seen how angry he can get when he was destroying the poetry books, just as Wookyung has this festering rage hiding deep inside her that even she isn't always aware of, just waiting to be unleashed, like when she grabbed the knife in the kitchen or began repeatedly slapping Sukwoo's mom. Even if he "doesn't seem the type" to kill, you can't always judge a book by its cover. Just look at all the different perpetrators of abuse we've seen throughout the show. Did Bitna's mom seem the type to violently beat her child? Did the Head Director seem the child-molesting type? I also don't think making him a culprit makes him any less the genuinely kind, sweet, gentle person we saw interact with the kids all throughout the rest of the show. While the saying "cool motive, still murder" is always applicable to situations like this because the person is still dead regardless of the intent, I still think that motive still does play a role in how culpable someone is for the crimes they commit. A destitute person who steals a loaf of bread to feed their starving child is different than someone who steals designer makeup because they just want it, you know? Yes, they both stole, but the reasoning behind the crime makes one person understandable while the other just comes out looking like an entitled @$$hole. Eunho killed because he was a traumatized, deeply broken individual who just wanted to save the children he loved so much who were suffering, and because of his own past (and possibly because of outside influence *side-eyes YTJ some more*), he could literally see no other way to spare them a lifetime of pain than to cut off that source of pain at the root, because if he didn't act, who would? Compare that with someone like the director, who killed someone in a fit of violent passion over money and then expected someone else to take the fall for him. Murder is still wrong, regardless, but hopefully this shows how someone like Eunho can still come out of it as sympathetic to the general audience while someone like the director notably does not. And I wouldn't say him being at least one of the culprits would go against what the show's trying to convey. It's true that if you have a tragic past, it's not a given that it's going to change and warp you into an extremist yourself, but at the same time, I think that's the struggle that Wookyung is going through, not Eunho. I think that Eunho is the show's cautionary tale figure, while Wookyung is what can happen if someone in that position has the support around them to lift themselves out of that cycle and find a better way. (Doesn't mean I'm not still bitter about him not getting the chance to heal and have a future, though, they could have at least let him live, dammit.) I mean, why else would Eunho have been so clearly rattled by Wookyung's declaration that he was a murderer if he hadn't actually killed anyone after all? Those were confirmed to be the director's shoes in Eunho's room, though, if I'm not mistaken? I think Sooyoung confirmed it when she was talking to Jiheon. I mean, there were no traces of blood OR dirt on them when they were analyzed, and even if Eunho wasn't the one to kill Hana's father, he still would have gotten his shoes filthy tramping around the farm. Even if he washed them, there should still be traces. Plus, it doesn't really make sense for Eunho and his accomplice to play musical chairs with three pairs of shoes. How would that have gone down, anyway? "Hey bro, I need your shoes, gotta put them in the director's closet, you'll just need to walk home barefoot." "K." Of course, I could be wrong about this particular point, but still, I'm dubious. While I also am totally not surprised to hear that the lines of the poems have a completely different meaning in the original context, it was actually speculated before the big reveal by another poster who I think studies criminal profiling that the person leaving the poetry has a high-school level education at best, because they don't have a deeper understanding of the poems they use and aren't trained to analyze them; they simply take out snippets that seem applicable at first glance and apply them to their own life and circumstances at will. Lo and behold, what is Eunho? A blue-collar worker with no higher education, who is only familiar with so much poetry because his abuser had him read it to him constantly. What a coincidence. I also think that in this point in time, revealing that Eunho wasn't at least partially responsible would make me feel... betrayed. Not by the character, but by the narrative itself. I don't mind if something a character says turns out to be untrue or not, because it was my decision to interpret their words the way I did, and if the show hadn't shown us flashbacks and just shown us Eunho talking with Wookyung in the car while he was confessing, I'd be right there with the rest of you guys in going "Yeah, he's 100% totally innocent, he's covering for someone else for sure." But they did show us flashbacks, and when the narrative explicitly sets up a plotline on screen, and then goes, "Well, actually, no, that didn't happen, even though we showed it to you and you had no reason to suspect that may have been anything other than what actually happened," I get annoyed. Because at that point, it's not foreshadowing, it's straight up lying to your audience for simple shock value. It's bad writing. With the dog butcher, I do think they're setting up that Eunho didn't kill him, because of the fact that we did not hear him confess to it, and we see him not wearing his good person mask at some points during the flashback, but with Hana's mom and Sora's dad? I will call bull$h!t if they psyche us out with those incidents, because they showed them to us on screen. I do definitely think Eunho's taking the fall for someone, though, and is letting people believe that he killed more people than he did or was the sole perpetrator of the crimes. But again, this could all be rendered moot by the next episode, who knows. I honestly think I'll be dead by Wednesday, regardless of what actually ends up happening, lol.
  14. Ah, hello @kumakumo, wasn't expecting to see you here! Thanks for the awesome analysis! Honestly, the whole thing was extremely interesting and well-written, and I agree with basically all of it, especially the reason why Eunho decided to kill Wookyung. Just taking into account the info that we have available to us right now, it makes far too much sense that YTJ was using Eunho, and realizing that his brother was doing to him emotionally what the director was doing to him physically was probably one of the things that started Eunho down the self-destructive path to choosing to commit suicide by cop. T_T Everyone he ever thought loved him, everyone he ever trusted in his life ended up betraying and using him in the end. That knowledge would be enough to destroy any person, tbh. I just... I wish Wookyung could have got to him sooner. That she could have shown him enough true compassion and unselfish kindness to give him enough strength to break away from his abusers and discover a better way to live before his pain ended up consuming him. @liddi, @bedifferent I don't think you have to worry about the narrative being reluctant to condemn Eunho's actions and paint him as this complete and total victim regardless of how the finale turns out, though. I think they've made it quite clear that whatever sad circumstances led to his ultimate fate, whatever forces that persuaded him that this was the right course of action to take, it was still ultimately Eunho's choice to commit those murders, and it was still wrong for him to do so. I do think, however, that by showing the perpetrator of these murders to be such a pitiable and sympathetic person with understandable motives, they create cognitive dissonance in the viewer, and force us all to reexamine our own beliefs and biases. What he did was wrong, will always be wrong, but we can't bring ourselves hate the man himself for doing what he did because we understand why he did it, you know? Ultimately, he was just a child in pain, and all he could see were other children in pain. I think that's a way more nuanced course of action to take than just painting all of Red Cry with broad brushstrokes of "All these people are just straight-up psychopaths, end of story." Bitna's mom. The doctor. All the other people that make up the group. They're all varying shades of grey, none of them utterly beyond sympathy or redemption. Regardless of whether YTJ turns out to be on the lighter side or almost black remains to be seen, but whatever course of action the show decides to take, that it took the time to be this varied in its approaches to the different members of the Red Cry organization shows a level of sophistication that most shows wouldn't take. That's just my two cents on the matter, tho. @thistleI understand your feelings about not believing that Eunho could be the murderer. Ultimately, though, they've explicitly shown us that he was responsible for the deaths of Hana's mom, Sora's dad, and the head director, so unless the narrative was flat-out lying to us in the flashbacks pertaining to Hana's mom and Sora's dad, I think it's pretty safe to say that he did indeed kill those individuals. Now, I'm not convinced he was responsible for killing Hana's father (remember, he didn't confess to it!), and he definitely wasn't the one to beat up Jiheon or kill Siwan's dad, so I do think that there was at least one another individual in charge of killing people in a more violent fashion, and Eunho wasn't responsible for everything. So there is that at least. God, you all are bound and determined to utterly shatter my heart over this poor character all over again, aren't you. Urge to write... fix-it fic... rising...!
  15. @liddi Hmmm... I'm not completely convinced, but you do make a pretty compelling argument, especially with the provision of rock-solid alibis indicating that Eunho was being looked after, at least initially, by whoever was running the organization. The only thing I can't figure out now is why Eunho kept making excuses for Director Song when Wookyung found him beating the tar out of Eunho. "He's like an uncle or older brother," he said. "But he's not a bad person, he just gets angry sometimes." If he already had an older brother figure in his life that he could compare and contrast the director with, then why did he keep making excuses for him? Why couldn't he recognize the abusive behavior for what it was until the director essentially left him to rot in prison? That could just be the nature of abuse, I suppose, especially abuse from someone one's grown up with, but from my understanding, it's much easier to break the cycle when you have other good relationships to show you just how bad the one you're currently in is. So if Eunho had YTJ in his life at that point, and his brother was actually being a decent human being to him, then why did he still accept all the abuse lying down? Why did he seem so absolutely bewildered when Wookyung expressed concern for him, bandaging his wounds and telling him to report the director to the police? It's like he'd never had anyone show him a modicum of of that sort of kindness to him before, and he didn't quite know what to do with it. And speaking of Wookyung, I'm preeeeetty sure Eunho likely knew exactly what YTJ had planned for her. So why then would he choose to kill her, knowing that YTJ would probably try to get her to remember her past, just like he likely did with him? Was that the one thing he drew the line at? Knowing that someone else would be in as much agony as he himself was in if his brother continued as planned in order to recruit her, so he was like "Over my dead body" and took matters into his own hands when the opportunity presented itself to do the one thing he could think of to try to save her? I'm really curious to see what the answer to this is, if YTJ has wanted to bring Wookyung into the fold for a long time, to which Eunho vehemently disagreed, or if trying to recruit her is something he came up with after his brother died because he's likely to join him soon and someone needs to continue their work? Guess we'll just have to wait and see how everything ends up playing out one way or another, and what YTJ true intentions were all along; whether he did truly care about his brother's plight, or was just using him like everyone else. I really have absolutely no idea how they're going to wrap everything up in a single hour, though, and answer all our questions satisfactorily. Just please don't leave us on a cliffhanger, writer-nim, please, I beg of you, I don't think my heart could take a cliffhanger ending.
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