[Drama 2016-2017] Guardian: The Lonely and Great Goblin 도깨비

[RobinM]

If the situation was not so heartfelt   I would  say ET has been watching Too many cheesy Makjang  dramas with Reaper with the whole "If I see you I'll kill myself" bit 

ESP since once again she forgets her boyfriend is  a Goblin and would not let her die no way no how. 

 

 

[booo28]

Arghh I can't wait for FRIDAY..  after I see the preview I hope tomorrow is friday..  

[CatchMine_ID]

1 hour ago, azuri said:

Omg... all these speculations about DH.

But I do admit that DH is special. He is somehow able to catch things very fast. As if he can read thoughts...

Like how the hell can he just suddenly casually slip in the idea that maybe GR is KS's younger sister? Like... it can't be just for fun. I'm sure he said it for a reason.

In all seriousness, his ability to read the confession in ep 8 even before KS said it and also to hide the actual message that was in ET's journal which was copied from KS is seriously freaky. Is it mere coincidence? (I seriously doubt it...) 

Also, if he is just a normal human being, there is just too much coincidences happening.

If he really is another supernatural being then that will seriously be...

 

DAEBAK.

 

AHA for that reason GR may be the queen... When Shin write Wang, maybe the queen has a big sin too to Wang and get so hurt when everytime Shin sent the white lantern to the sky (for hope of peace, etc etc)

[crazyoverkdrama]

After seeing that preview, how am i supposed to sleep now?? I just hope that it will not be that depressing the entire episode.  I actually don't trust the previews anymore.  I've been conned! LOL

But seriously, those PPL pays well.  I've never watched a drama this visually good-looking.  Everything is a feast for the eyes.  

All those sandwich PPL is almost worth it.

 

[picorange]

Saw this translation from YT for the preview :

GR : why missing soul has to die?

KS : what are we really, why there are Goblin and Reaper but that kid has to die?

ET: if you appeared in front of my eyes again, i'm really gonna make you die

GR : You will find her? (goblin and grim reaper are talking about opening some door to make the god change his minds)

ET : i love you

Credits to Thao Nguyen & JAmS at YT

[hairuchii]

 

There are words which I could not understand (it would help if there is a text preview too; then, I could check the words), but I have indicated the parts which I am not sure about below. This should be the main gist of the preview. We should wait for Dramafever or somebody else to release perhaps a more accurate translation.

 

 

[KS must have told GR about what happened]

GR: What are you talking about? Why would the missing soul die?

KS: What the hell are we?

KS: Why is it that, even with the two of us, a Goblin and a Grim Reaper, the girl could not live?

ET: If you appear in front my my eyes again, I will really kill you then.*

KS: I'm looking for her. Tenaciously. Which door would I have to open? [I cannot catch this one... Something about how it will be up to the gods.]

ET (whispers): I love you....

 

*I've have seen different translations of this line. I have listened to the preview over and over again. Eun Tak uses a word for "kill" (죽이다) that is mostly used for killing somebody else. If she is referring to killing herself, she could have used the words for "commit suicide" (자살하다).

 

 

 

 

[valzki]

I was so sleepy just now and almost fell asleep. But until i refreshed this thread, my eyes opened wide in a sec saw the preview. Lol... 

from the preview i can see a sweet moment of the squad (KS, ET and GR). Can it be the flashback or the moment ET spends with them before her leave? I can't wait to see KS reaction when ET tells him she loves him (since i heard "saranghae" that means "love" not "like"). Finally we know that KS love is not one-side love  will he tell her that she is his first love? Arghh...why should tomorrow be thursday, not friday 

[i.am.bugz.funny]

THE HORROR PART IN GOBLIN

[enigmatic_zephy]

just wanted to point this out..

 

DH crosses the bridge.. with grandmother changing from granny to hot woman.. and DH asks her out for a drink..

Next episode, the opening scene .. we do hear voices only of DH inside the pub and a woman (it sounds very very similar to our actress who plays granny) . and then he is basically not able to pay because card doesn't work.. and he calls goblin.. when goblin ignores his call abt the credit card..

 

Just saying.. y wud goddess flirt with a 20 yr old? to enquire abt DH's family aka goblin? or get him to rent an appt to GR.. that is a strong possibility as others have pointed out..

 

Regarding DH being god.. not too sure.. however,

after the episode aired, i was confused because I always thoguht and even the text looks similar - what KGE wrote down was same as that war piece in foreign land that KS wrote abt.. it wasn't love letter...

FIrst i thought DH just took the clue from ET abt it being a love letter and made up the text.. he said as corporate heir he is made to learn hanja.. which is very very possible.. both as goblin's serving family duty and as a modern age businessman..HOWEVER, what he said turned out to be truly the poem KS recites at the very end.. possibly i saw it wrongg..

 

is there no one here who can read hanja n confirm..

 

because other than this ( his name was kept by goblin.. so slim chances of him being god) .. there really is nothing that hints him being god even remotely

[uglypearl]

Sorry If this is posted before:

Episode 9 Text Preview:

드디어 도깨비 검의 비밀과 자신의 효용가치의 의미를 알게 된 은탁(김고은).
 
그리고 자신이 죽지 않으면 은탁이 죽게 되는 충격적 진실을 알게 된 도깨비(공유).
 
비극적 운명 앞에서 은탁은 도깨비를 밀어내기로 결심하는데....

 

Interpretation from translation sites (not 100% accurate, sorry for many mistakes)

Finally, EunTak realized the secret of the Goblin's sword and the importance of her useful value.

Goblin learned the shocking truth that if he doesn't die, EunTak dies.

Before the tragic fate (fate becomes tragic) ,  EunTak decided to push/shove (away) the Goblin....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[enigmatic_zephy]

i think ep 9.. we wud spend goblin trying to find her and convince her to come back.. and all action in last 10 minutes with a proper confession...

 

definitely betting on that.. ep 10 wud be figuring out how to proceed from where they are.. the conundrum by god

[jchoo]

Hey, guys! I'm new here, the Goblin Effect effectively pulled me out of my cave. The first and last time I came out of the cave was when Master's Sun was airing. That was quite a while ago so I don't even know how to log back into my old account. I made a fresh, new account just to jump onto this bandwagon with y'all! This drama and Gong Yoo brought me back to Kdramaland! So happy I get to make friends here because these days I don't have any real friends, I just sit in my room and stalk Goblin and Mr. Goblin on Instagram  not even ashamed, though...hehe

[najiha101]

Plz plz plz plz dont let this be a sad ending i cant take breakdown again but still i wont assume just by the preview can u believe CHINGUS i cried jst by watching the preview  i dont know what i m going to do on friday after watching the episode plz writer understand my soft heart and dont give us a sad ending도 은다

[selenette]

@packmule3 Greetings! *bows*

First, I have to say I'm not personally against the Grim Reaper being a former Queen. In fact, it is interesting to see an actor portraying a feminine soul within: it will be such a bold challenge to fixed Asian gendered characterization, isn't it? Well, perhaps that is the sociologist/feminist in me speaking, although hopefully I am by no means a "rabid feminist" as you put it in a previous post.

However, I found some explanations against this theory (comprising speculations and solid evidence), so I maintain that the Grim Reaper was the King we saw in Eps 1 and 7. 

Here are my arguments against the Queen theory. I had to put them under spoiler boxes so as not to put off people who are not interested in speculations. 

A. THE QUEEN'S FEELINGS OF LACK OR LOW SELF-CONFIDENCE

Spoiler

I would like to open my arguments by this statement:

I do not think the Queen-to-be would feel that she was extremely lacking in anything, as you put it some time ago.

She must've been selected from a noble family of high social status and wealth (as was the custom of this era in Korean history).

It is true, however, that a King is richer and more powerful (despite any political machinations that might render him powerless) than anyone else in his kingdom.

Nonetheless, the Queen-to-be s in Goryeo and Joseon era were almost always noblewomen. There were specific cases in which commoners were chosen as Queens, throughout arduous route of being concubines, etc etc, but in Kim Sun's case, it was clear from the family's many servants and followers, as well as her pre-Queen beautiful hanbok, that she was a noblewoman, and hence was socially more affluent than any common woman.

 

B. SUNNY'S CONFIDENCE AND DOMINANCE? 

Spoiler

Similar to the (admittedly) hasty assumption (that I would back up with an evidence later in this post) that the King must have regretted his mistakes, the assumption  that the Queen was neither  the "dominant one" nor the "confident one" is also a hasty one.

We only saw the Queen and King interacted in public, we do not know how they acted in private. She could very well be both the dominant and the confident one when she was alone with the King, but we have yet to find out.

In addition, we have not seen many of the Queen's scenes, but in both scenes (Eps 1 and 7), I do not find her as a woman of low self-confidence.

On the contrary, I see a young woman with an amazingly commanding, powerful presence. A young woman who maintained her dignity even though she knew she would soon die, and bore her Queen training with confidence and delight.

Why can't Sunny be a reincarnation of such a brilliant young lady, instead of a young man? History has repeatedly shown how women could be both poised and authoritative at the same time. 

 

C. FEELINGS OF LACK IN A RELATIONSHIP

Spoiler

Even if Grim Reaper was the King, it would still make sense that he felt lacking. I might be wrong, but to me this is part of Korean culture of "shyness" (which was alluded to in the movie Socialphobia, among others).

We see such panicky reactions from the Goblin. When he was jealous to Eun-tak's interactions with Tae-hee, he showed off that he is handsome (confidence pose (Ep4), shiny new car), good at baseball (Ep 7) and at memorizing a smartphone's specs (Ep 5), was able to work in such mundane jobs (Ep 8)...

Hence, the Goblin, a once formidable general and a nobleman to boot, is desperate to show himself in a good light in front of Eun-tak. So is the Grim Reaper, who was a king, in front of Sunny. We expected these men to be confident all the time, but they aren't always so.

 

D. THE GRIM REAPER'S SOCIAL INEPTNESS AND ITS CAUSES

Spoiler

Another explanation to the Grim Reaper's social ineptness could be found in his amnesia and his recruitment into Grim Reaperdom. In my humble opinion, the setup for a Grim Reaper is equal to a total reboot, or a factory reset, of a repaired gadget. Thus he was robbed of many subtleties necessary in mingling among humans.

While grooming was compulsory for a Queen-to-be, Grim Reaper's drilled answers to Sunny's questions are not necessarily the signs of his Queen-ness. We could always refer to the Goblin's frantic behavior in his relationship with Eun-tak (as previously explained) for comparison. 

Granted, the Goblin isn't amnesiac, so he doesn't need any made-up background as Eun-tak's boyfriend. But in the Grim Reaper's case, his anxiety in the budding relationship with Sunny is worsened by the absence of any ties to living things. 

 

E.HOUSEHOLD CHORES AND FEMININITY

Spoiler

Nowadays, more and more household chores are shared by men and women, regardless of masculinity or femininity. Even in an Asian society entrenched with patriarchy like mine, this phenomenon has become increasingly common.  I approve of the writer's showing the household scenes, because it is a brave challenge against the traditional male and female division of labor.

Surely if we can accept, or even think,  that a man was a woman in his past life, then we can also accept that a man is still masculine while folding towels, or rather, a masculine man needs not be afraid of embracing previously established "feminine" chores.

In short, the Grim Reaper's skills in towel-folding and cooking do not necessarily indicate the presence of a feminine soul. 

 

F. CRYING SCENES: GOLLUM AND THE GRIM REAPER?

Spoiler

Concerning Grim Reaper's crying scene in Ep 7, I rewatched Gollum's crying scenes on YouTube and these could not be more different from the Grim Reaper's. Especially since you referred to the one Gollum did for his Ring. There was certainly sorrow in Gollum's eyes, but there was also resentment in them: after all, the Ring was his curse. I don't see this at all in the Grim Reaper's eyes. All that was there was grief. 

Or perhaps it is Lee Dong-wook's nuanced performance that brings different interpretations to different people. After all, he is a seasoned actor. 

 

 

G. THE GRIM REAPER'S PAIN IN THE CALLIGRAPHY SCENE

Spoiler

As to why the Grim Reaper was pained in the calligraphy scene (Ep 8), I realize that my post was purely conjecture. However, I'm afraid the same goes to yours when you argued that it was a pain responsive to his killer's name.

Whichever was the case, one thing is undeniable: the pain started at the writing of the yeo ( 黎 ) character in the "Wang Yeo" name (see picture).

Cr: Twitter owner

Because you used a real life analogy of "looking at our own old photos and crying over them for the past long gone" (my own rewording), I will also apply such analogy for this case. I'm afraid chest-clutching does not always signify remembrance of one's pain. Remembrance of the pain we inflict on others could bring us pain, too. 

 

H. THE KING'S REGRETS: WHO WAS THE SCROLLS' OWNER?

Spoiler

Now, we're moving onto the King's supposed regrets and the scrolls (the paintings of the Queen). I realize that to declare the King regretted his actions, without any solid evidence whatsoever, is also a conjecture.

Still, I'm more inclined to think of his keeping scrolls and scrolls of the Queen's picture as a sign of the king's remorse, like @Sarang21 said, especially since she had long since died. Nobody else, to my belief, could have possessed those scrolls.

Allow me to explain. 

Firstly, it seems rather absurd, as well as bordering on incestuous (at least to me) if those scrolls were Kim Shin's-- why would he be so obsessed with his teenaged little sister?

Secondly, the scrolls could not possibly belong to the palace archives, either. The room they set the scroll scene in looked different from the usual palace archives room in sageuks (I will elaborate).

Thirdly, the man in the following picture,

had been correctly described by @itzibitzispider as the Kims' family servant.

He was not an archivist. As far as I know from watching sageuks, maintenance of palace archives was the job of palace eunuchs and scholars, while servants were only given menial jobs. 

The attire of these eunuchs and scholars were different from the servants, so each member of the social class was readily recognizable. 

The room where the scroll belonged in was small and seemingly private, not to mention there were brushes and paints too. So this wasn't the palace archives. This was somewhere secret, but most likely still within the palace (given the furniture and the subsequent scene of Kim Shin's razing the palace).

Cr: Sarang 21

Since the queen was branded as traitor, the King could not mourn her in public even after he found out that she was innocent (thanks, @bebebisous33 and @Sarang21). This a conjecture, but I will see a solid evidence.

There is no introduction to other royal family members who could possibly have sympathized with the Queen, or anyone else who would have bothered painting her likeness in secret (as seen in the picture, the scroll was a new painting).

Unlike the Medieval to Victorian era Western societies, private painting commissions of individual likenesses were, as far as I know, not a trend in Goryeo era Korea. Theirs was an era more commonly associated with Buddhist paintings.

Therefore, it is more plausible that the scrolls belonged to the King.

 

I. THE GRIM REAPERS: ARE THEY REINCARNATIONS? 

Spoiler

Another point that I would like to address as my supporting argument is the writer's worldbuilding of Grim Reapers.  

In  the case of the Grim Reapers, our Grim Reaper and one of his juniors already stated in Eps 2 and 4 that they are dead souls ("We're not alive, but why do we still have to eat, drink, and find shelter?"  ; "She asked me how I was, when I'm not even alive."-- my own rewording) .

Therefore, these Grim Reapers are not reincarnations, but souls who are assigned to reap other souls, and as a result are allowed to be semi-corporeal rather than 100 per cent incorporeal or invisible like common ghosts.

Furthermore, there is another evidence that dead souls cannot change their gender (thanks, @gutibear dear!)  

The females appear as females, the males appear as males.  The only aspect that they could change was the extent of their injuries, or how old/young they are (Ep 4, the boy from Quebec; Ep 8, Eun-tak's "friend"). Some cannot even change their appearance at all (Ep 5, the blind man). 

Since there is no evidence in this show that a dead soul can disguise his/herself, and mirrors do not change our Grim Reaper's reflection, then it follows that the Grim Reaper's current appearance was how he more or less looked like when he was alive.

 

J. ON THE USE OF MIRRORS 

Spoiler

You argued that mirrors played an important part in this show as a way to look at the Grim Reaper's inner Queen-ness. I will respectfully beg to differ.

To my humble interpretation, the literary function of the mirrors in this show, i.e. the one that The Goddes of Birth and Fertility/The Red Lady showed him (Ep 3), his body-length mirror (Ep 8), is to tell the viewers that The Grim Reaper was made to feel the kind of pains he inflicted on the Queen (I think @bebebisous33 once argued for this as well, if I'm not mistaken).

His pain was hers, thrown back at him like a mirror reflection to make him reflect on his past mistakes and as part of the price he still has to pay.

Granted, these are yet another series of rambling conjectures, but so are your conjecture that these pains were the pains of the Grim Reaper's past self.

Still concerning the use of mirrors as the show's literary device, I see it as yet another supporting evidence of the Grim Reaper's Kingly past. The sun-shaped mirror is not a red herring, but another symbolism that is in parallel with his crown pin (i.e. that he was a king). This might be lazy Occam's Razor writing, but in my opinion this is really that obvious.

Note: Pardon me if I misapply the philosophical phrase

 

K. ON SUNNY'S DISLIKE OF THE "KIM SUN" NAME

Spoiler

Additionally, I would like to kindly remind you that per Ep 8, the reason Sunny does not like the name Kim Sun is not only its "goody-goody" ness, but also its association to a distant, obscure, yet traumatic past.

I assume this is related to the Queen's past. I admit that this is a biased view, because I am already more inclined to side with the King theory. 

However, and even if Sunny was the King, any associations of the "Kim Sun" name with a painful past could only serve to strengthen my argument that the King was remorseful for the pain he inflicted on the Queen. 

 

L. ON THE GRIM REAPER'S "KIM" NAME

Spoiler

Our Grim Reaper's current name, "Messenger Kim", is neither a clue to his past name nor a name he particularly chose for himself. It is a standard name for all Grim Reapers (Ep 3).

 

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, while it is possible that the Grim Reaper was the Queen, it is also equally possible that the writer has not revoked the casting announcements that Lee Dong-wook's Grim Reaper was a King named Wang Yeo. 

 

Last but not least, we are entitled to our own opinions, but I hope I don't come across as offensive to anyone here. If I do, then I humbly apologize.

EDIT:  Dead souls, as suggested in @gutibear 's post.

Edited December 30, 2016 by selenette
Grammar, marshaling my thoughts and adding conclusions

[RobinM]

Aigoo. K drama Noble idiocy... instead of talking it out and trying to find a solution  someones runs  away and angsts. I had hoped they would avoid this cliche. Oh well.maybe it will only last the episode. 

[hairuchii]

20 minutes ago, uglypearl said:

Sorry If this is posted before:

Episode 9 Text Preview:

드디어 도깨비 검의 비밀과 자신의 효용가치의 의미를 알게 된 은탁(김고은).
 
그리고 자신이 죽지 않으면 은탁이 죽게 되는 충격적 진실을 알게 된 도깨비(공유).
 
비극적 운명 앞에서 은탁은 도깨비를 밀어내기로 결심하는데....

 

Interpretation from translation sites (not 100% accurate, sorry for many mistakes)

Finally, EunTak realized the secret of the Goblin's sword and the importance of her useful value.

Goblin learned the shocking truth that if he doesn't die, EunTak dies.

Before the tragic fate (fate becomes tragic) ,  EunTak decided to push/shove (away) the Goblin....

 

 

Oh, this is fairly accurate! Thank you! Those translation sites have done well! 

 

I have made my own translation below too...

Episode 9 Text Preview:

드디어 도깨비 검의 비밀과 자신의 효용가치의 의미를 알게 된 은탁(김고은).
 
그리고 자신이 죽지 않으면 은탁이 죽게 되는 충격적 진실을 알게 된 도깨비(공유).
 
비극적 운명 앞에서 은탁은 도깨비를 밀어내기로 결심하는데....

 

My Translation:

"Finally, Eun Tak (Kim Go Eun) discovers the secret of the Goblin's sword and the significance of her own role.

Also, the Goblin (Gong Yoo) finds out the shocking truth that, if he does not die, Eun Tak will die.

[Faced with] their tragic fate, Eun Tak decides to push the Goblin away..."

[Jloves]

@hairuchii & @uglypearl Thank you for the translations of video & text preview 

I've been repeating the preview! GOD!  RIP replay button..lol

Look how happy they are  maybe it's a dream?

Just looking ET carrying those heavy bags, it hurts me  & how she hold tight w/ her goblin doll 
& when she stop, it started raining  How sad our Goblin must have felt??

look how he desperately looking for her 

that desperately & longing look of our dear Goblin 

Big applause for both GY & KGE 

[cristala]

I'm just curious ,,,do you think they already filmed the ending scene in Quebec..the previous episode when KS saw ET future at the restaurant?? I' wonder if it's the ending part..Im just curious if they already filmed it ahead of time..I remember during Dots ,,the kiss scene ending was filmed already in advance than the other episodes

[Sarang21]

2 hours ago, packmule3 said:

 

Hey there @Sarang21

7:29 am here. I’ve 10 minutes to post this before getting ready for work.  This will be roughly written (so don't mind my grammar mistakes) but I don’t want to leave you hanging or worrying about this question of yours.  

I’m tagging also @autumna because she also raised this point but I didn’t have time to respond back then. Sorry, Autumna, my fault.

I agree with you on the scrolls, @Sarang21.  And if I was doing the scoreboards (@phikyl) this is definitely going on Team Sunny-is-Queen section. I also must note that the Reaper himself keeps a lot of scrolls in his room. Did you notice that? If the Reaper is the reincarnated King, then these scrolls are a sign. 

However, here’s my caveat: The existence of the scrolls does NOT prove the ownership of the scrolls. 

We are not shown explicitly where the scrolls were found, nor told who really owned those scrolls. We were meant to "assume" things. Of course, we can always make a reasonable guess that they belonged to the king.

But given the propensity of the writer/director to obfuscate or to conceal details (like the ceramic bowls) I have to hold *my* judgment until something more concrete comes up. Of course, others don't have to follow me and they are free to believe what they want to believe. We're all adults here.

But look, what if the scrolls were kept in the Royal Library as part of the archives? 

Or, more importantly, what if the scrolls belonged to this old man whom Shin briefly exchanged "speaking" glances with, in Episode 1. This man made Shin stop in his tracks and alter his course. Who was he? Was he related to Shin and the Queen? If he was, it was possible that he had scrolls with her portrait on it, too. Or he had scrolls belonging to Shin himself? Who knows what when we aren't given the backstory.   

 

See that? I have reasonable doubt.

That’s why I insist on the backstory. Unless I know more of the background story, nothing, as of Episode 8, proves CONCLUSIVELY -- to me, at least -- that the king regretted putting his queen to death.   Of course, this can all change in Episode 9….or 10 or 11, 12…. The writer can show us then the king pounding earth and wailing at the queen's grave or something. 

As I said, I’m willing to play the waiting game with this writer because I think she’s worth it.

 

 

But look, what if the scrolls were kept in the Royal Library as part of the archives? 

First let´s look at the setting where KS found the portraits of the queen (pic in spoiler). It looks like a workplace for a painter and one picture was in progress of being painted. Now I don´t know much about how traitors were handled at that time, except that the whole family were killed. But I would assume that, they would also try to erase any trace of them from history? Even tho she was the queen, she was also a traitor and therefore all of her  pictures would have been destroyed. I may be totally wrong on that part since I don´t have that much knowledge of that period . I don´t even know how I came up with that idea lol. So if someone got more information please tell me.   

Spoiler

 

We are not shown explicitly where the scrolls were found

I  think that they were found in the palace because after KS took one scroll for himself, he set the rest on fire (pic in spoiler). the next shoot was, the room where the dead king was lying also being on fire and we see KS walking with the scroll in his hand. (pic in spoiler). So it must have been the same place.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

So base on my assumption that her pictures should have been destroyed and it wasn`t, someone must have wanted to keep them. And since the pictures were in the palace (IMO), the only person who would want to keep them would be the King. It couldn´t be the old man since as traitor he wouldn`t be allowed into the palace.  I hope I´m making sense here lol.

But I understand your point of view and you have made some valid points. I also agreed that at this point it´s all speculation and there is no conclusive evidence showing that he felt remorse for what he did. I hope that we will get more backstory this week.

[aurelly]