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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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22 minutes ago, linhlinh111 said:

@ForgottenSoulx I didn't try to analyze if they are good or not, cuz they are clearly not good people, so you can't use the morally correct standard to judge them. I'm trying to analyze if they are acceptable or not and I based it on whether they have broken the rules, breached the law or committed a crime in the context of that era, which they have not. For example if someone is in danger, a good person will save them, but if he doesn't, that's not considered a crime. That's why I said I watched with neutral eyes, while you think people have to do what's right, otherwise they are bad.

 

Take SH for instance. SH is not police, he is not the symbol of justice. He may have suspected that ML's mother was murdered but decided not to investigate. He wasn't morally correct, however he did not breach the law. In the drama, we have seen many maids ordered to be beaten to death but no one seek justice for them, bc they were just lowly women. To SH, Weiniang's status may be higher than a maid only a little bit. After all a concubine's life basically belong to the house head. From SH's POV, Weiniang was just not worth it. The drama make a fuss about her cuz she was ML's mother, if she was just some no-name concubine then this was no big deal at all. It is ML's duty to avenge her mother, not SH's. Daniang is still in charge of the house. He just gave Linniang more power than a concubine should have. He's the head of the household, he can promote anyone he favors. 

 

GTY's brother is the same. Is he a good guy? Absolutely not. And he has already known for a while that stepmom tricked him, he's still jealous of GTY. Did he attempt to commit a crime? Also no, all he has done is framing GTY of some misdemeanor not even worth prosecuted. So is the stepmom. The whole pampering so that he become arrogant thing is not wrong. She isn't his mother, she has no obligations to raise him well or worry about his reputation and future. It's his dad's job (this I blame his dad). In fact it's a social norm for a main wife to do that to her husband's other children in that era. So that action alone is within the acceptable zone. However her other evil deeds are not.

 

Oh yeah and QH absolutely hates GTY, and he doesn't need the rights to hate, it's his inner feeling and he can hate as much as he wants (I kinda like him that way, more humane, with hatred and jealousy) and he can despise, detest GTY as much as he wants. It's his personal problem. However, he does not try to get back at GTY, and does not intentionally use his job against GTY. So what if he still holds grudges and regrets? I have no problems with him being emotionally unstable. He's married, he respects his wife and he is not aiming to get her back.

 

People are good when they do what's right, but they are still acceptable if they only barely abide by the law.

 

 

I think judging if they are acceptable or not based on if they broke rules/law is rather stupid honestly. Who cares if they broke the law or not what they did was still wrong and evil.

 

No character on this show has really broken the law yet does that mean everything they did was acceptable, also this is entirely the issue with SH if he saw ML's mum as not worth it then hes scum and a bad person i dont care what it was like back then. 

 

Ok so sure Daniang was still in charge of the house but was she really , if a concubine is getting more favour people would disrespect and look down on Daniang more. We saw this at the start of the drama where Daniang was suffering quite a lot due to Linniang.

 

I agree with GTY's brother hes most likely the most neutral i think stuff he did was just because he was brainwashed and did not really know what happened.  SH's step mum did not raise him to be arrogant she raised him with love and made GTY believe he had someone in that house he could rely on and that he was not totally alone but instead she was scheming and ruining his name,accusing him of rape. How can you blame the dad when the step mother was basically brainwashing the dad by saying what GTY has "done" when in reality he did not. Step mum was totally to blame why GTY and his dad has such a bad relationship , nothing she done is acceptable and is evil. 

 

Also you blame the dad when it was SH's mother who caused the issues with GTY and the dad.. 

 

On one hand you say QH has a grudge against GTY but then say he does not use his job against QH.. im sorry but that is just not believable at all. Also not aiming to get her back yet meet's her in secret and try's to touch her. I also dont think he really respect's his wife at all. 

 

Law has nothing to really do with this discussion you can be a evil person and malicious even if you stay in the law. 

49 minutes ago, cherubstomato said:

 

In this show though I don’t mind to watch her character so no FFs but MN still annoyingly crazy. 

Good thing from this show is although there is a lot of villains at least we get a breather from each character and there is no one big bad guy from start to finish that you start to pull your hair out and scream kill them off already. :cry:

 

What do you mean by no FF's? 

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On 1/22/2019 at 1:17 PM, leeza77 said:

 

Importing this from the other thread, fsf mentioned he cried watching yingbao’s acting speech in front of the emperor (please do correct me if I’m wrong, I just google translate it). So... probably ML pleading for GTY’s freedom?

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Upperclass folks love regarding lower status people as nuisance but in truth, without prestige & title, they're pretty much chopping blocks. QH's mother should have explained the situation to QH earlier. I'm surprised it took her so long to mention this ordeal to him? And his mother had Buwei beaten to death?! Now they are in a rut.<_< 

 

Just finished Ep. 28, & it was really good. It really sets the difference between TY & QH. If QH had been more adamant telling his mom about ML early on before the horse game match, maybe ML couldve been a marriage prospect, but QH was too afraid to get his feet wet. Now he can't do a thing about it.

 

The scene w/ ML & TY is great. I love the conversation between ML & TY about time & moving forward. ML mentioning they were both lovesick nitwits is funny. The way TY attentively looks at her & reassures her wellbeing fills me w/ glee. Their conversation holds alot of weight/meaning in comparison to QH&ML, which I find super cut & dry. I like that TY knows to keeps his distance around ML so nothing tarnishes the Sheng family & to uphold ML's dignity.

 

TY may be an outcast with no title to his name, but at least he's competent & have life skills that benefits himself & the people he cares about. Same thing w/ ML. Being born from a mistress & belittled by her peers, she's still able to stay upright & manage while helping the people around her. I can't wait for ML & TY to kick these fancy posers off their golden tightropes.

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You guys are quick! I'm only up to do 47 subbed. I've been refraining myself to comment on previews and trailers which could be taken out of context. 

 

I just wanted to say ML after "blackmailed" by 4th and 5th Aunt, beating up the pillow was just cute, and it's highly amusing to see GTY telling 4th and 5th that it was him who snatched ML from Dr.He! And then his only solution to ease ML's anger? To go beat up the couz in prison! :lol::lol:

 

Also when GTY told her his story and how he's not satisfied that his mom died so quietly that not many even realised that she lived, we can see ML's heart breaks with him..and she instinctively hugs him. 

ML's implicit understanding of GTY that he doesn't really want to torture them, but only wanted an acknowledgement that they were wrong, that's so heartwarming. 

 

And when GTY bared his back full of scars to ED to cane him, my thought actually went back to "I wonder how ML reacted seeing them?". She might not have said much, but it does show he had a horrible life so far too. 

And they are the best thing that happen to the other...

 

I don't disagree that most of us are biased towards the main couple, ML-GTY. Whilst they too aren't perfect, we understand and we feel them, because the show gives us their perspectives, thought process, their feelings. 

And personally, I felt all the intimate dialogues is one of the strongest point of the show...

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3 hours ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

 

Who did ML slash at the end?

 

Why cant ML just straight out refuse Kang Auntie..

 

 

What if GTY was being spied on in jail so he asked ML for separation for it to be move believable? 

 

 

That slap felt good its about time sometime slaps that girl.

 

 

Now where do i start with this post without being rude.. was just shaking my head reading this in disbelief but let me try.

 

Its not that were super invested in the main couple its just that we understand their actions and thought process alot more because they are the lead couple of this drama so we see more of them and understand them clearer. I also heavily disagree that you see this drama with neutral eyes based on what you said below.  Stuff that is actually evil or wrong you are trying to explain away .

 

You say SH apart from the Poison case everything he does is acceptable?

 

Lets start with ML's mother's death sure he never directly caused her death but he certainly never investigated or tried to find out the truth because that would ruin the sheng's honour and his honour. Saying he had no responsibilities to seek justice for her like what?

 

He then treats his concubine better then his main wife which basically shames the main wife and makes her lose authority of the household. Following this he totally favours and treats the children differently in regards to punishments and reward's case being when ML had her face slashed Molan was barely punished. He also had idea's to give away ML multiple times to solve family issues even though ML has repeatedly saved Sheng's family honour. First being when she was young during the marriage of her sister , second when she saved SH from the actions of her brother in the palace by SH remembering what ML once said. Then there is also the upcoming grandma getting poisoned where i guess he wanted to keep this Hush and not punish people involved to protect his honour.

 

I just GUESS this is all just acceptable and fine.

 

What you said about GTY's older brother i agree with but he was manipulated to believe what he did and continuously worked and harmed his brother so hes not a neutral party. I pity his character but i hate his action's and still think hes a bad character most likely not evil just misinformed/biased against his brother.

 

Stepmom is just truly evil and this should not even be a debate she pretended to be a loving step mother towards GTY all while harming his repudiation, saying he raped girls and always messed around in brothel's. This in return made the dad and father basically hate each other. You said she started to go overboard since the father died? No she has been evil since the start with her false personality and making GTY into a villain she also stopped GTY from meeting his father before death. None of this is acceptable at all and she is truly evil. 

 

QH's wife is not evil she is just a bit naive to think she would be QH's first and one true love and they would live in peace and harmony . What does she think will happen if she goes against ML which she has.. she did not need to tell 5th aunt about the dolls but she did to cause issues , she also ran into ML on purpose in trailer to cause some issues. 

 

I also agree somewhat in regards to QH if he was just doing his job there would be no issues but its painfully obvious for everyone to see hes emotional and clearly going against GTY but i just dont get what he think's doing this will do . He wants ML to be happy but doing this against GTY will harm ML. He is indirectly a pawn for ED against GTY and sure we dont know everything but hes really not that stupid to not know that hes clearly going against GTY and hes fine with that.

 

Also no-one want's our couple to have a smooth easy life because that would be boring and drama over.

 

Im terrible and writing and have terrible grammar but tried to get my point's across. 

 

 

They are both petty but his wife is just naive as well thinking the marriage would be perfect. 

 

 

Rather then evil shes malicious and out to cause trouble and Naive.

 

 

 

Which drama re you on about??

 

 

We have plenty of proof by now when he met with GTY and got emotional , when he met ML and tried to touch her.. QH is stupid but hes really not that stupid he clearly knows hes being used to go against GTY.

 

If he was simply investigating and doing his job would so many people have issues with him currently. QH criticised GTY in court but im pretty sure someone was about to bring up his marriage with the princess and GTY stopped that.. You see the difference ?  

 

QH is emotional and clearly still has feeling's for ML if people really think he holds no grudge against GTY and is simply doing his job then i really dont know what to say, he most likely think's ML was stolen from him. 

 

QH said he wanted ML to be happy and have a good husband/life yet he is openly going against GTY which causes harm to ML.. makes sense. 

Well said.. I'm with you 100‰

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I honestly don’t see anything wrong in viewers being biased towards GTY & ML. We are being shown their life stories. We were shown their past, their sorrows & how they overcome those difficulties, their thought processes. We cheered them on so it is expected that viewers will be attached to them. We were and are not given the intimate thought processes of the other characters. What we know about them is the more superficial traits so they will be judged based on those traits & the actions they take. 

 

Personally, I relate more to GTY & ML. I admire how they use their brains & overcome all the difficulties that life & others throw at them. QH on the other hand I can never understand & at this point I am not sure I want to understand (that scene of him shouting that he is full of regrets & grabbing ML’s arms & the scene in episode 49 where he told his wife that she should keep out of court matters because she is a woman pissed me off)

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3 minutes ago, darkphoenix123 said:

On a side note, I ship Shitou & Xiaotao especially after episode 49

Ha ha.. Shitou will also be like gty. Henpeck by the wife. Xiatao really fierce. 

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1 hour ago, leeza77 said:

Ha ha.. Shitou will also be like gty. Henpeck by the wife. Xiatao really fierce. 

They are both like their Master. Lol :lol:

And both seem to like their other half to be feisty! 

GTY was so happy and proud when ML didn't even look at him and  totally ignored him. :lol:

 

And Shitou was like "XiaoTao looked at me and gave me the killer stare!" :lol:

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@linhlinh111 I won't quote your post since it's quite long. 

If lawful or not is the only parameter used to judge, you would be right. But we also live by ethics and moral code.

 

SH favouring CL, and Molan is not illegal, but it's unfair. 

SH turning a blind eye to ML's mom's death is legal, but unjust. 

GTY's mom, all her despicable actions, her acting, aren't illegal. 

Princess PingNing beating BuWei to death is also legal, since he's a servant. 

QH giving ML false hope, break it, ruining her reputation are all legal

QH giving his wife a cold shoulder isn't illegal

QH's wife telling the aunt unnecessary info about ML also legal. 

Gu Family marrying GTY's mom for money and ignoring/ looking down on her afterwards are all legal. 

GTY using deception to marry ML, also legal. 

 

If we are judging a person only on legality of it, the actions are all justified. 

But rights and wrongs go beyond that, because we live by moral codes and ethical conduct. 

And that's why those actions are wrong.

Because while some actions are deceptive and mean, others are downright cruel. 

But everyone's to his/her own, on where we draw the line of what's acceptable, and what's not. 

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@ForgottenSoulx FFs fast forwards

 

@m0us3y lmao I’m still only at episode 45. I’m just reading all the spoilers and trailers on here but at same time I don’t want to because I don’t want to formulate an opinion or anticipate what not without watching the episodes yet. But, I fear if I don’t keep up with this thread I come back and I’m already 30pgs behind like last time. It’s fun reading all the debates/ different POV of everyone and basically just talk about the episodes. Lol 

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Just got done watching the most recent ep subbed in viki. Before i say my unpopular opinion i just want to state that i love minglan, of course. Her and gty is such a cute couple, of course. But minglan telling gty to spend the night with MN without having issue with it is just so turn off to me. Ok i get it and i know why shes like this but shes really hurting the people ( in this case mainly or only gty ) around her. How can she just toss gty to mn like that. I wish someone would yell at ml and wake her up that its okay to love someone esp her husband and gty has always been treating ml so well too. And that love with husband and wife does not need to be repay , you love them because you love them. Im just getting disappointed everytime at ml when she does something like this to gty. At this point i just wish the grandma posion thing to happen ( i love ml's granny btw ) or whatever that will happen to make minglan not blind. I wish i could explain what i have in mind more but sadly i am not a A+ essay writer and sadly im so bad at expressing thoughts god damn. I dont expect people to agree with me but i hope they understand or have an idea what im trying to say.

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9 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

Just got done watching the most recent ep subbed in viki. Before i say my unpopular opinion i just want to state that i love minglan, of course. Her and gty is such a cute couple, of course. But minglan telling gty to spend the night with MN without having issue with it is just so turn off to me. Ok i get it and i know why shes like this but shes really hurting the people ( in this case mainly or only gty ) around her. How can she just toss gty to mn like that. I wish someone would yell at ml and wake her up that its okay to love someone esp her husband and gty has always been treating ml so well too. And that love with husband and wife does not need to be repay , you love them because you love them. Im just getting disappointed everytime at ml when she does something like this to gty.

 i feel the same way too. My heart hurt seeing GTY during that scene :( 

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21 minutes ago, mingerling said:

 i feel the same way too. My heart hurt seeing GTY during that scene :( 

So true! I feel so sorry for GTY. The acting is done really well. He has small micro-movements where you see his gaze shift or his smile go stale. It is very subtle in some scenes and then very visible in others where you can see how disappointed he is and how much he longs for her to return his feelings. Come on, ML! 

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35 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

Just got done watching the most recent ep subbed in viki. Before i say my unpopular opinion i just want to state that i love minglan, of course. Her and gty is such a cute couple, of course. But minglan telling gty to spend the night with MN without having issue with it is just so turn off to me. Ok i get it and i know why shes like this but shes really hurting the people ( in this case mainly or only gty ) around her. How can she just toss gty to mn like that. I wish someone would yell at ml and wake her up that its okay to love someone esp her husband and gty has always been treating ml so well too. And that love with husband and wife does not need to be repay , you love them because you love them. Im just getting disappointed everytime at ml when she does something like this to gty. At this point i just wish the grandma posion thing to happen ( i love ml's granny btw ) or whatever that will happen to make minglan not blind. I wish i could explain what i have in mind more but sadly i am not a A+ essay writer and sadly im so bad at expressing thoughts god damn. I dont expect people to agree with me but i hope they understand or have an idea what im trying to say.

 

I’ve been feeling that way since the first time she said it was ok for gty to have concubines. What alarming to me was the conversation she had with  her maids, when her maids praised gty, but ml just brushed it off and then her maid danju said something along “arent you describing SH instead?”.  ML projects her father as a husband toward gty. That’s not fair and sad. Right now I want ml to suffer a little for gty sake, but knowing the drama, whatever suffering ML will have, poor gty will suffer twice hard :wacko: the dude cant catch a break

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Just viewed 49 and GTY and ML are now the Marquis and Marchioness of Ningyi. The mother of GTY was also given a posthumous title as the wife of the late Marquis and was entered into the book of ancestors. But the bold and brazen GTY placed the emperor in a difficult position. He is so used to fighting with his family for what he wants and used to being a warrior using war tactics including some scheming. ML schemes too but only when necessary and does it stealthily. The only one who has an inkling of what she has done is her grandma. GTY is a derring do and inured to what others think of him that he comes out as uncaring. He can also charm his way out of a difficulty if discovered just like he did with the Dowager Empress who could not beat him when she saw his scarred back. However, Yuan Ruo was right when he said that what GTY did has alerted the Dowager Empress of a weakness of the emperor and that weakness is GTY. But this is GTY we are talking about and he may have had that covered too. When he petitioned for his brothers infront of all the attending ministers, the emperor had to grant his petition then stalked out angrily and as everyone was leaving he slowly stood up from his kneeling position and looked up at the Empress Dowager behind the screen. I was thinking what is he doing? Maybe that meant nothing but we shall see. 

 

Maniac Maniang is back. She stabbed GTY and says her son is dead. I don't believe her. She can't be trusted. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, m0us3y said:

@linhlinh111 I won't quote your post since it's quite long. 

If lawful or not is the only parameter used to judge, you would be right. But we also live by ethics and moral code.

 

SH favouring CL, and Molan is not illegal, but it's unfair. 

SH turning a blind eye to ML's mom's death is legal, but unjust. 

GTY's mom, all her despicable actions, her acting, aren't illegal. 

Princess PingNing beating BuWei to death is also legal, since he's a servant. 

QH giving ML false hope, break it, ruining her reputation are all legal

QH giving his wife a cold shoulder isn't illegal

QH's wife telling the aunt unnecessary info about ML also legal. 

Gu Family marrying GTY's mom for money and ignoring/ looking down on her afterwards are all legal. 

GTY using deception to marry ML, also legal. 

 

If we are judging only a person on legality of it, the actions are all justified. 

But rights and wrongs go beyond that, because we live by moral codes and ethical conduct. 

And that's why those actions are wrong.

Because while some actions are deceptive and mean, others are downright cruel. 

But everyone's to his/her own, on where we draw the line of what's acceptable, and what's not. 

Well said and commented.

 

I noticed that Qi Heng almost "beg" Ming Lan to hate him as it would seemed she had some feelings for him even if it is hate. Ming Lan just said she does not hate him hence she retain no feelings for him. Her motto "Never look back".

 

Back to Xiaotao telling him that he is the one who wanted Ming Lan first then also the one who abandoned her.

 

Even his own wife mentioned that if he wanted to marry Ming Lan he could have done it once he became a widower. He thought Ming Lan that would be waiting in an ivory tower for him?

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One of my favourite aspects of this is a drama is the complexity of the characters. For example, I neither dislike or like GTY’s older brother. It is heavily suggested that he was brainwashed to believe that GTY’s mother was the reason for the death of his own mother and it is understandable why he has animosity. However, I do not condone his unfair treatment of GTY through sabotaging GTY at times because GTY wasn’t even born when this particular situation occurred. I remember ML mentioned in an episode that children shouldn’t have to bear the sins of their parents (even though it does happen) and I have to agree. I’m not sure of the exact lines/episode but feel free to rectify it  :)

 

Likewise, with QH’s wife, I don’t dislike/like her character. I understand why she is unhappy and jealous that QH has someone else in his heart since she was raised with parents who loved each other a lot. Thus, she subconsciously had high and unrealistic expectations with QH. Through investigating the identity of ML and her past with QH, I personally think she made it harder on herself. Also, it appeared that she was about to move on until she found the dolls. But even before that, she gave unnecessary information to the 5th aunt which she understood could be used against ML.

 

Thus, there is nothing wrong with having emotions such as jealousy, anger etc. since it is their emotional reaction. However, there is a difference between having the emotions and actually acting upon it with ill-intentions toward innocent people. I guess this is what makes them interesting and human -_-

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2 hours ago, m0us3y said:

@linhlinh111 I won't quote your post since it's quite long. 

If lawful or not is the only parameter used to judge, you would be right. But we also live by ethics and moral code.

 

SH favouring CL, and Molan is not illegal, but it's unfair. 

SH turning a blind eye to ML's mom's death is legal, but unjust. 

GTY's mom, all her despicable actions, her acting, aren't illegal. 

Princess PingNing beating BuWei to death is also legal, since he's a servant. 

QH giving ML false hope, break it, ruining her reputation are all legal

QH giving his wife a cold shoulder isn't illegal

QH's wife telling the aunt unnecessary info about ML also legal. 

Gu Family marrying GTY's mom for money and ignoring/ looking down on her afterwards are all legal. 

GTY using deception to marry ML, also legal. 

 

If we are judging only a person on legality of it, the actions are all justified. 

But rights and wrongs go beyond that, because we live by moral codes and ethical conduct. 

And that's why those actions are wrong.

Because while some actions are deceptive and mean, others are downright cruel. 

But everyone's to his/her own, on where we draw the line of what's acceptable, and what's not. 

Powerful post and thank you. May I add to this that we need to consider how the characters see the scene and what they feel about it, see it from the characters' point of view. For example when Rulan said during a fight with Molan because Molan belittled her or Molan starts crying "I am the legal daughter and you are the concubine's daughter" it sounds so off putting and arrogant but when considering Rulan's POV, who has seen his father unfairly favor his concubine and concubine's daughter what Rulan is actually saying is "I matter and am important to my father because I am the legal daughter" it is a psychological self care. It may not seem reasonable for the viewer but for the character it does. Even at those times of strict patriarchal society, and reputation was of utmost importance people were still people with emotions and feelings. What is legal also changes with time. What we viewers interpret as legal maybe illegal in those times and what we interpret as illegal could be legal in those times. Anyway good point. 

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Episode 48-49 shows us the difference between GTY and QH. 

 

GTY treats ML as equal. In fact, he respects her, and has always listened to her, even called her his strategy advisor. 

In all their family meetings, we can see she sits with GTY, as an equal while all other wives stand behind their husbands. 

It's quite cute when GTY openly tell ML that she' the only one who can keep him under control as even the Emperor can't. 

 

QH has always treated his wife as a woman of that generation- second class, to listen and submit.

That women should not meddle in men's business. 

And he walks in front of her.

Arguably, he may not have been like that with ML...maybe. But he clearly subscribes to the ideology of neo-confucianism a lil bit more. 

That everyone has their own place and they should follow that....

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