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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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Remember in ep 14, when SH told Hualan to sit down so he could look at her thoroughly? He was on the verge of tear talking to her. I don't think "he didn't bat an eyelash" is very apt way to describe it. He married HL into that house was a misjudgment, he couldn't predict the crazy MIL. After that, they couldn't just pull her out because she was mistreated, not even grandma could think of anything more than helping her bear a son. I'm not gonna defend SH on every matters, because he was wrong on many fronts, but not Hualan; regarding HL, he did care, and did try his best. He may be a terrible father to ML, it doesn't equate to him being terrible to ALL 6 of his children.

 

About Molan, I agree with @Golden Flower that SH wouldn't approve of her request if her husband weren't there. He was ignoring Molan, only when Liang Han pressed the matter further and Minglan started to protest that he started to agree. It wasn't about Molan, it's about his saving his own face in front of his son in law and claiming authority over Minglan (also the main reason for him slapping Minglan in the latest episode). He was irritated with ML not because she's smarter than his other children, it's because she refused to bowed down to him, thus threatened his authority over her and the family. SH is extremely "saving his own face" oriented, all of his actions are largely motivated by this. I wouldn't call SH evil, cause he's never gone out of his way to hurt ppl, he just really selfish and would always do what benefit him the most. As soon as Minglan represent him a solution that benefits him, he would listen right away, no yelling, no slapping whatsoever. As GTY put it, he loves his reputation more than his family. 

 

Also, I wouldn't  want him to lose everything. If he does, it will only hurt his children. They wouldn't die or be completely destroyed, but it would make their life harder, which is not something I wish for HL, RL, CB and Minglan. He's awful but I hope he turns out okay for his children's sake. 

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I agree that all the characters are grey and you can see that they are all shaped by circumstances in their lives. In my opinion, the only truly evil character in this drama is Aunt Kang. I only say this because she literally plays with the lives of everyone around her like they’re her play things to do with as she pleases. I get that as the main wife, she can pretty much do mostly whatever she wants with the concubines and Shu children in her household but everything she has done has been beyond cruel. Sending in a Shu daughter to purposely die so she can use her death to manipulate others is crazy. Stepmom comes close in the game of manipulation but Aunt Kang beats them all. I think maybe this is why I don’t watch a lot of palace dramas since it seems like making servants and unfavored children go on suicide missions is usually a norm in those types of dramas. 

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I must say that the older Sheng men are not good husband material. Grandmother went through the pain of her husband concubine causing her own son's death, her older sister in law dying breath was scolding her late husband and Sheng Hong poor management of his own inner court.

 

Watch how Gu Ting Ye glared at Master Kang when he insulted Ming Lan and his arm was always around her during that confrontation. Even the Emperor is a good example of a husband that he was willing to go with his Empress to beg forgiveness. I think it was a shock to the Empress Dowager to see such a sight.

 

I believe they are so used to scheming that they do not see the support between husband and wife.

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9 hours ago, sava2sava said:

@nichiwoohee

  Reveal hidden contents

Wait did step mom bring the richard simmons back ? 

 

@hello210

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This is kind of confusing, Now it seemed the old marquis (GTY father) should have had 4 wives.. I know both sistera didn;t have the same name..

I don't think she waited until GTY turned 20 to decide to kill him.. I'm wondering if the incident on the boat is related to her and not the Bais like he thinks.. Clearly the Bais could have taken GTY and all his mom assets would have come with him.. His Dad only kept him to live off his mom money..

 

Based on the novel spoilers, GTY’s father only had three wives but because of the short timeframe between wives and that it all happened outside the capital people thought the the third wife was the same as the first wife and that all the sons were hers. I guess people thought this because Elder Gu Marquis left the capital with a wife who’s last name was Qin and still returned with a wife with the same last name so they didn’t realize that Big Gu Madame was actually a different Qin daughter or that there had been a Bai daughter in between the two Qin daughters. I got a little confused at first too. I think the drama did a good job of including all the wives. 

          Also I meant that Big Gu Madame had been planning and scheming for at least twenty years or so since GTY is over twenty years old and GTY was very young when she married into the family. Living that way for that long and things not working out as planned could drive a lot of people crazy. 

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Sorry to trouble everyone,  but which episode is it, when gty goes to qh house to talk to him and at that time qh tells gty that he isn't one to be trusted because of what he did to him in the past? I can't seem to find it.  I know episode 40 is when they meet up at the restaurant and gty refuses to let go of ml, but i can't find the recent one.  Thanks in advance btw:blush:

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5 minutes ago, mimidq8 said:

Sorry to trouble everyone,  but which episode is it, when gty goes to qh house to talk to him and at that time qh tells gty that he isn't one to be trusted because of what he did to him in the past? I can't seem to find it.  I know episode 40 is when they meet up at the restaurant and gty refuses to let go of ml, but i can't find the recent one.  Thanks in advance btw:blush:

 

Epi 51......I think or 50.

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1 hour ago, gleek49 said:

Remember in ep 14, when SH told Hualan to sit down so he could look at her thoroughly? He was on the verge of tear talking to her. I don't think "he didn't bat an eyelash" is very apt way to describe it. He married HL into that house was a misjudgment, he couldn't predict the crazy MIL. After that, they couldn't just pull her out because she was mistreated, not even grandma could think of anything more than helping her bear a son. I'm not gonna defend SH on every matters, because he was wrong on many fronts, but not Hualan; regarding HL, he did care, and did try his best. He may be a terrible father to ML, it doesn't equate to him being terrible to ALL 6 of his children.

 

 

We might’ve seen two different things as I dont see him as on the verge of tear, he was tired after being detained by the emperor and told hl that granny will find a way for her, basically just be patient. If I’m not mistaken it was danniang who bring up the subject to granny. As annoying and clueless danniang is, she cares about her own children, not just how for sheng house’s sake

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On 2/3/2019 at 1:29 AM, frenchfan said:

Watching this drama made me go through a lot of emotions : this shows that all the actors and actresses are TALENTED.  They played their role so well that we either love, pity, feel sad for them or hates them. Whoever the director is, bravo!  You made the right choice to choose the actors and actresses for the respective roles.  I read that ZLY was chosen as main actress right from the word go but for the male lead, it took them a while.  They had so many choice to choose from.  FSF managed to carry this role well as he gives you the strong male impression.  Plus he is mature for this role like the writer would have wanted. Bravo to the wole casts!   

I think FSF is chosen because he is ZLY's bf at that time and their chemistry on and off screen was talk of the town when their Monkey King's movie BTS came out before showing in theaters (around the time TSofML Male Lead was announced and started the shoot). Although I think FSF is doing a good job in this drama, I also agree to some degree with someone who posted a few days ago that FSF is not really a great actor especially for facial and eye expressions. In current TSofML, his eye expressions towards ML were great (I think it might be contributed by he really being in love with ZLY :P). However, I do feel that the look of age difference bt ML and GTY was so much more than it should since ZLY looks a lot younger than her age closer to ML's age even with her mature hair-do but FSF looks in his early 40s (they should have let go off his mustache as he seems to act weird when talking with it). The other actor I think will match GTY is Yuan Hong though I do not know his chemistry with ZLY and whether his lovey-dovey touchy interactions with ZLY after marriage will be as good as FSF since they weren't lovers in reality. There are scenes where FSF put his hand on ML's thighs and her back close to her chest instead of her shoulder while carrying her princess style. (Yuan Hong has been a versatile actor since he could take on very different roles with great emotibility and he has ability to portray differently to his bad/ evil characters.)

I haven't watched all of FSF work and I understand I don't qualify to be a critic. The only other drama I liked his acting was in Beauty's Rival in Palace where he played a few episodes as Marquess of Zhuxu, being great OTP with Myolie Wu. FSF's fan please do not bash me :D :P :P 

 

Spoiler

I have watched FSF's famous shows (Palace Gong, Lanling Wang, The Starry Night season 2), a few movies as well as a few of his 6 older dramas before Palace (though I dropped 5 of them at various time point of the show). I skipped a lot for Lanling Wang after half-way even though I like Ariel Lin's in general. I dropped other two dramas early as I got really bored, annoyed with the story-telling and some of the characters' acting. FSF's acting in all three dramas are meh to me without much variation in facial expressions. I don't have time to point out every single FSF's bad acting in his other work like someone requested but I'm not trolling or his anti-fan. I really am not a fan of any actor (I have way passed the age of being a fangirl) and I have been watching chinese drama as a whole for learning the language, history and culture, and for the story and presentation. I like ZYL in his "love three lives" and liked the drama though not knowing him before or other male lead from before, not a fan of republican era, drama being unrealistic and ZYL was bad second male lead. On the other hand, I didn't like his first male lead drama Royal Sister Returns  though he had good chemistry with Ady An, Ok acting but his costumes and hair were terrible and his portrayal as psychologist wasn't reflective of profession.

 

@sava2sava @minglan1

FYI: All my post today related to SH was actually mentioned/ shown in the drama though some are very brief and easy to miss. So, you don't need to read the book but just to rewatch the scenes where SH as well as Sheng family members are involved and shown (minus QH, GTY, ML scenes and court politics). The only thing I specifically mentioned from the book about SH was "SH requesting grandma to let the girls go back to school after CL pressured him" just to point out the fact that drama writers try to dramatize by adding some scenes. 

@minglan1 I just scanned episode 1-4 for ML alone and ML and her mom scenes but couldn't find anything about her mom reading the book of art of war to ML. I knew her mom told her story about princess Pingyang and the art of war but I don't remember being mentioned she read the book to ML. ML's maternal grandfather was educated and I assumed her mom was verbally told/ taught about the art of war. To me, the drama wasn't clear whether ML's mom was educated up to CL's level. I'm not saying she cannot read at all. However, I'm pretty sure she didn't talk about poetry, writing and chess with SH like CL. CL's talent was mentioned a few times in the drama by grandma and SH.

Spoiler

If you rewatched CW interaction with SH in epi 2, you would see that SH would feel (his facial expression) CW being repulsive to him and he wasn't welcome in her room unlike CL clingy attachment to him. She told him to go back to main house as her house was cold as she was hot from her pregnancy hot flashes. CW didn't complain to SH a bit but lied to him everything was great. When SH found out the truth from ML, he did his best to inquire and stood on CW's side reprimanding both Daniang and CL. It was CL who was good in manipulations making up all the false account books and accusing CW's maid of stealing with all the proofs and witnesses. My point was not about education but CW's efforts to get a place in SH's heart/ mind vs CL's efforts. For SH, CW was just someone Daniang bought for him without much attachment or guilt towards unlike CL. So, he thinks that as long as he provides well and care for her and her children, he fulfills his responsibilities. How could SH know of CW's difficulties and mistreatment if she didn't complain to him or to Daniang who SH considered CW's person? (I do understand CW didn't want to fight and cause trouble within the family but her tolerant was even disappointed by Daniang.) 

@nichiwoohee I'm not trying to police anyone. I quoted your post as it was the most recent post mentioned about SH and I really felt that you were comparing two very different situations. However, I mentioned, that post was intended for characters which are being called evil, stupid and morons and I was using SH as an example to explain the nuances  for those who didn't grasp them and who did not understand to see things in characters' perspectives.

Yin Guo Gong or his wife did not talk to general Shen or go cause ruckus at his house when his concubine Zhou did not respect to their daughter in public by talking back to her many times, making fun of her in public or attending to parties she shouldn't attend. I'm pretty sure they knew that their daughter Zhang did not even attend parties, mainly stayed in her own courtyard at her home where she is supposed to be the main wife in charge and she was badly humiliated by CZ at ML's house which are worse situation than Hulan needing to contribute money to the household to please her mom-in-law in private. He talked to general Shen calmly when they were summoned by ML for their daughter's close to death difficult birth caused by CZ. Btw, YGG's position is higher than general Shen as he is not only general with military control/ 1st grade military minister but also held nobility title and general Shen is only second or third grade military official. SH is only 5th grade official and HL's FIL was third grade nobility. SH even has to give face and respect to his 4th and 6th sons-in-law as their family status is higher than him. So, do you think he would dare to go talk to HL's FIL about his wife giving HL's husband concubines (which is acceptable, SH himself had two in the drama) and using HL's dowry especially since HL willingly gave the money for household to use to prevent her MIL forcing concubines. Also, SH being a man would not go talk to the wife of Count. If husbands of HL and RL were mistreating them (especially RL's) by ignoring them and giving their concubines position like main wife that HL and RL had to hide in their own yard like (the way General Shen did to his new wife in the beginning), I'm pretty sure SH will have a chat with them. 

 

For those interested in official positions and attires: GTY became third grade official similar to general Shen only after he inherited the Marquis title though his military title is still below that of Shen. You can deduce from the official's robe color and their lineup in imperial court. Even if scholar and military officials are same grade, scholar officials are viewed higher than military ones).

 

@bulubulu @tinast I think director's DVD cut version the one viki and youtube used for subbing will end in episode 72. As someone already mentioned, currently epi 61 has  ~ 10 min of TV epi 66. The episodes differ as hunan TV cut the episodes randomly making every episode with different length (sometimes without opening credit or short ending credit) when DVD epi all has same a little over 45 min length. 

@leeza77 In my previous post you tagged, I wasn't blaming ML for her action. She is the heroine and she has to act differently. I'm just pointing how she has been viewed by everyone including SH, Daniang, and Wang family. You will see in today's episode how she has been criticized and devalued by Wang grandma and uncle for her being rude to elders, inflexible, unvirtuous and making things out of proportion which are things people in that era try to avoid in solving family related issues and crimes. 

 

Note: I'm going to refrain myself again from writing on behalf of characters' point of view and trying to point out those characters being grey as they're normal human being in that era (not super hero or heroines like main leads)....hahaha :D :D :D  So, tage me if you want me to comment on any specific things. Cheers!

 

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Let's take a short break. 
Who among these women is the wicked of them all?


pvz7syu.png

 Lin QinShuang, Molan's mother, Sheng Hong's concubine

 

qeV4YNH.png

Manniang, Gu TingYe's mistress

 

qcIJbRW.png

Empress Dowager

 

d7yhTex.png

The Emperor's consort

 

zN2dgYj.png

Gu TingYe's stepmother

 

Lo24AhG.png

Aunt Kang

 

 

WntmoIv.jpg

Snow White's stepmother, the evil Queen

 

 

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10 minutes ago, dancingbee said:

Let's take a short break. 
Who among these women is the wicked of them all?


pvz7syu.png

 Lin QinShuang, Molan's mother, Sheng Hong's concubine

 

qeV4YNH.png

Manniang, Gu TingYe's mistress

 

qcIJbRW.png

Empress Dowager

 

d7yhTex.png

The Emperor's consort

 

zN2dgYj.png

Gu TingYe's stepmother

 

Lo24AhG.png

Aunt Kang

 

 

WntmoIv.jpg

Snow White's stepmother, the evil Queen

 

 

Gu ting ye's stepmother for me. The way she used other persons behind her mask without them knowing.

For me, it's the worst

Doing something while prentending all the time. Venom snake

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20 minutes ago, dancingbee said:

Let's take a short break. 
Who among these women is the wicked of them all?


pvz7syu.png

 Lin QinShuang, Molan's mother, Sheng Hong's concubine

 

qeV4YNH.png

Manniang, Gu TingYe's mistress

 

qcIJbRW.png

Empress Dowager

 

d7yhTex.png

The Emperor's consort

 

zN2dgYj.png

Gu TingYe's stepmother

 

Lo24AhG.png

Aunt Kang

 

 

WntmoIv.jpg

Snow White's stepmother, the evil Queen

 

 

My vote:

1. Auntie Kang (ep 59, ML told stepmom, at 3 person died in her household

2. Linniang - killed ml's mother

3. Stepmom-greed/intent to kill ml

4. Manniang 

5. Ed

6.  Emperor' s consort

 

 

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Many discussions on SH so I rewind to look closely at him.. eps 55-57 - the heated debate on Emperor's bio father title and ED decree tho SH hardly utter a word camera seemed to zoom on his face many times.

 

Maybe looking from his silent facial expressions when certain issues wr touched, we may understand more about him??

 

Ep55 (54:08)

In awe when ED stood and in raised voice shouted "SHUT UP"

EP55 (45:24)

Grimaced at CB as GTY was walking out to receive his punishment

 

Ep56 (21:48)

QT raised issue on seniority in inheritance

Ep56 (23:24)

As QH extended his hand to confirm contents in ED decree 

 

Ep57 (1:24)

Look of awe when ED bowed b4 the Emperor

Ep57 (3:34)

Coughed when QH started complaining and later offerd to be removed fm his post

Ep57 (05:21-6:27) 

His various reactions as the debate became heated until Emperor demoted QH

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Personally, I think FSF is perfect as GTY, this is the first time that I actually like him in anything. He makes me like GTY so much that I'm willing to defend him to the end of the world (as many of you may have noticed :))) I even feels like his acting has not been given enough credit, really. His performance in ep 19-20 was probably one of the best acting moments in this drama. But that's just my opinion, even though it's sad to see negative views from others, I can't force them to see what I see, so each to their own I guess :)

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5 minutes ago, gleek49 said:

Personally, I think FSF is perfect as GTY, this is the first time that I actually like him in anything. He makes me like GTY so much that I'm willing to defend him to the end of the world (as many of you may have noticed :))) I even feels like his acting has not been given enough credit, really. His performance in ep 19-20 was probably one of the best acting moments in this drama. But that's just my opinion, even though it's sad to see negative views from others, I can't force them to see what I see, so each to their own I guess :)

Agree with.. He's perfect as gty. 

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7 hours ago, bulubulu said:

So in viki its takes only to ep 60 to catch up with the eps thats airing in china (tv version?) but the tv version is already at ep 66. Im quite confused, i saw people say viki is airing uncut, but does it still ends at ep 7

YALL JUST WATCH IT ON YOUTUBE https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv80wwC58SKqmF4mO-5aBcg

 

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1 hour ago, Golden Flower said:

 

@sava2sava @minglan1

FYI: All my post today related to SH was actually mentioned/ shown in the drama though some are very brief and easy to miss. So, you don't need to read the book but just to rewatch the scenes where SH as well as Sheng family members are involved and shown (minus QH, GTY, ML scenes and court politics). The only thing I specifically mentioned from the book about SH was "SH requesting grandma to let the girls go back to school after CL pressured him" just to point out the fact that drama writers try to dramatize by adding some scenes. 

@minglan1 I just scanned episode 1-4 for ML alone and ML and her mom scenes but couldn't find anything about her mom reading the book of art of war to ML. I knew her mom told her story about princess Pingyang and the art of war but I don't remember being mentioned she read the book to ML. ML's maternal grandfather was educated and I assumed her mom was verbally told/ taught about the art of war. To me, the drama wasn't clear whether ML's mom was educated up to CL's level. I'm not saying she cannot read at all. However, I'm pretty sure she didn't talk about poetry, writing and chess with SH like CL. CL's talent was mentioned a few times in the drama by grandma and SH.

 

ML mentioned  mom reading to her about war strategies while she talked with GTY after being rescued from drowning.Since your earlier post mentioned that she was uneducated thus I mentioned it.In one of the conversation's ML's aunt also mentioned their family also received education.

 

About SH, he didn't treat all children same.To do that isn't a crime but he willfully neglected Rulan and ML.

RL had a sharp tongue so it can be taken as a

 reason but there was no justification provided for treating ML so since childhood.

He used ML's logic to be saved from emperor's wrath, yet he tried to sacrifice her to be married to count Liang's son / GTY to save his position. He didn't punish Molan severely for trying to enter the men's poetry enclosure during the polo match or trying to harm M's face and ruin marriage prospects.Neither Changfeng for landing him in serious trouble. 

He mentioned about killing Rulan for having an affair but only punished Molan to kneel at the ancestral hall.

He has specifically tried to not dish out harsh punishment to CL's children.He even berated ML for coming home with fanfare post marriage.None in the family were displeased about the issues except  Molan and Aunt Kang because the couple had been courteous and polite.

 

In contrast Grandma even though favored ML, tried to help with regard to Rulan, Hulan's in-law woes.She was also gentle and polite to changbei's bride. 

Her dealings with her grandchildren had fairness unlike SH which had favoritism.

I don't know how it is in the book but in the drama SH only paid some attention to ML's qualities when tutor Momo called out his bias.

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1 hour ago, Golden Flower said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

If you rewatched CW interaction with SH in epi 2, you would see that SH would feel (his facial expression) CW being repulsive to him and he wasn't welcome in her room unlike CL clingy attachment to him. She told him to go back to main house as her house was cold as she was hot from her pregnancy hot flashes. CW didn't complain to SH a bit but lied to him everything was great. When SH found out the truth from ML, he did his best to inquire and stood on CW's side reprimanding both Daniang and CL. It was CL who was good in manipulations making up all the false account books and accusing CW's maid of stealing with all the proofs and witnesses. My point was not about education but CW's efforts to get a place in SH's heart/ mind vs CL's efforts. For SH, CW was just someone Daniang bought for him without much attachment or guilt towards unlike CL. So, he thinks that as long as he provides well and care for her and her children, he fulfills his responsibilities. How could SH know of CW's difficulties and mistreatment if she didn't complain to him or to Daniang who SH considered CW's person? (I do understand CW didn't want to fight and cause trouble within the family but her tolerant was even disappointed by Daniang.) 

@nichiwoohee I'm not trying to police anyone. I quoted your post as it was the most recent post mentioned about SH and I really felt that you were comparing two very different situations. However, I mentioned, that post was intended for characters which are being called evil, stupid and morons and I was using SH as an example to explain the nuances  for those who didn't grasp them and who did not understand to see things in characters' perspectives.

Yin Guo Gong or his wife did not talk to general Shen or go cause ruckus at his house when his concubine Zhou did not respect to their daughter in public by talking back to her many times, making fun of her in public or attending to parties she shouldn't attend. I'm pretty sure they knew that their daughter Zhang did not even attend parties, mainly stayed in her own courtyard at her home where she is supposed to be the main wife in charge and she was badly humiliated by CZ at ML's house which are worse situation than Hulan needing to contribute money to the household to please her mom-in-law in private. He talked to general Shen calmly when they were summoned by ML for their daughter's close to death difficult birth caused by CZ. Btw, YGG's position is higher than general Shen as he is not only general with military control/ 1st grade military minister but also held nobility title and general Shen is only second or third grade military official. SH is only 5th grade official and HL's FIL was third grade nobility. SH even has to give face and respect to his 4th and 6th sons-in-law as their family status is higher than him. So, do you think he would dare to go talk to HL's FIL about his wife giving HL's husband concubines (which is acceptable, he had at least two in drama) and using HL's dowry especially since HL willingly gave the money for household to use to prevent her MIL forcing concubines. Also, SH being a man would not go talk to the wife of Count. If husbands of HL and RL were mistreating them (especially RL's) by ignoring them and giving their concubines position like main wife that HL and RL had to hide in their own yard like (the way General Shen did to his new wife in the beginning), I'm pretty sure SH will have a chat with them. 

 

 

My original comment are sequences from my comment how relieved I am that there is still a family who would risk everything for their daughter. Duke ying might be mightier then general shen, but if ber daughter were to be divorced or separated, it will put a dent on his family name. But he didnt care and for that I applause. Sh is still the father in law, who hl’s husband should respect, he could have mentioned how skinny or unhappy hl is, for her husband to pay more attention to her, but he wont, again because he’s bound by all the things you mention. If every evil characters so far could afford being nosy, I’m sure a little talk to his son in law wont hurt, if he really cares for her that is.

 

It’s inevitable for people to find certain characters as evil or stupid and ignite discussion, if we dont judge the characters based on what they potray, might as well watch documentaries, sit back and learn some history

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@GoldenFlower yeh he may have gotten casted cus he was zly's bf but im sure the director didnt pick him because of that only. Im sure they know he's an experienced actor, acts well, and talented so they casted him. Anyways wont write much about him since this is for the drama talk only.

 

 

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