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[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner

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42 minutes ago, briseis said:

As you can see all the princes are basically wearing the same design (and unlike Eun, THEY ARE NOT GETTING MARRIED) that is copying the myeonbok - the costume department obviously took some creative licence and applied the myeonbok design as the design of the official robe FOR BOTH THE PRINCES AND THE KING.

 

Eun's robe is slightly different though.  If you look closely all the other princes have the same color dragons, gold with red and the dragons go down the sleeve.  Eun's is different that it's only on the shoulder and also has hues of blue and pink in the dragon emblem.  I think what's interesting here is he's lacking the headdress (maybe he took it off cause I remember King Taejo wearing it in the first episode for his other wedding Queen Yoo opposed to) and how the princess didn't have a headdress either compared to the Joseon era wedding.  The spoiler pic of YH was the same way that she had a similar blue dress with her hair done but no headdress.  

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1 hour ago, briseis said:

The Goryeo Domestic

This isn’t about palace rules or Jung (who is, by the way, probably as consequential as a fly), this is about pent-up anger, frustration, pain and disappointment and misunderstanding. They are basically having a lover’s quarrel in front of a whole unit of Palace guards and they don’t give a damn; arguing almost without actually talking to each other and only communicating through the guards, but the whole time they never stop looking at each other. This is A BATTLE OF WILLS. Hae Soo is punishing Wang So and he simply takes it.

 

Of course, So immediately realizes she is lying to him,  just like he recognized her apprehension on the boat, just like HE NOTICES EVERYTHING ABOUT HER because he knows her like no one else, sometimes even better than she knows herself. HS’s reaction might seem as a little extreme, but let’s face it, she has been extreme from the beginning, just like Wang So which is probably one of the many reasons why he was so drawn to her. Her action show that they have a long history - SO KNOWS WHAT SHE IS CAPABLE OF, he saw her hurting herself before and she knows it. He respects Soo’s guts and like the tactician he is WS realizes that SHE IS DEFIANT AND ANGRY AND this is a battle he cannot win, therefore he retreats in order to fight another day.

 

It’s such a heartwrenching sight to see him once again standing outside, banished by a woman he loves, UNWANTED ONCE AGAIN. AND JEALOUS. He can hear Jung’s voice and again another woman in his life “choses” his younger brother over him (it’s even more poignant the place where he told HS his childhood story about Jung is so close). His jealous and turbulent reaction shows that no matter how much he tried to let HS go, he simply can’t.

 

 

 

admire2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?12928624 It's like you're in my head.. LOL. It's one of my favorite scenes.

When Jung was like did you do that for me? big-eye-onion-head-emoticon.gif?12928624I was like no dude they just had the most epic lovers tiff in kdrama history good-job-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862 embarrassed3-onion-head-emoticon.gif?129 

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Text preview of episode 16?

공격하는 황군들을 순덕과 함께 힘겹게 상대하는 왕은. 왕은은 정종에게 살려달라고 애원하지만, 정종은 왕은에게 활을 겨눈다. 한편, 왕소는 왕은이 다미원에 있었다는 사실을 숨긴 해수에게 상처를 받게 되는데... ※ ‘달의 연인-보보경심 려’ 16회는 야구 경기 사정에 따라 결방될 수 있음을 안내드립니다

credit http://m.sbs.co.kr/tvview/tvviewDetail.do?pgm_id=22000009610&mda_id=22000200860&pgm_mnu_id=44102&srs_id=22000070988

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6 minutes ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

I'm always interested in your readings of So and Su not just because I love those two to death and that you do such a good job analyzing their interactions but it's always fun reading other points of view. I especially liked what you say about the two of them publicly playing out a lover's spat... it's cute when you think about it in those terms.

But I want to push the analysis further beyond anger and jealousy into the issue of trust and confidence. I don't doubt there's a lot of angst going on... anger and jealousy is part of that process that they're both going through trying to grapple with the emotional turmoil of having to put aside their blossoming romance albeit temporarily. More fundamentally, however, is that they've broken faith with one another. It's a serious breach of trust because they are unwilling to speak about what's in their hearts and so they gloss over what's really happened with the marriage and are forced to lie about how hurt they are: So because he knows exactly what he's giving up and Su because she had been finally prepared to accept his heart after fobbing him off for so long.

There was no explanation on So's part because he believed that no amount of explanation would be forgivable. However, what was also wrong in his approach was that he did not trust her to understand why he married his niece and love him for it or in spite of it. It is a kind of noble idiocy. As a principled man he wanted to spare her of having to accept an explanation because it would compromise her beliefs for his sake. This is why I've always maintained that his love for her is ultimately built on not kindness from her but on respect... respect for her unique perspective and strength of character. Nonetheless he needed to learn another crucial thing about love... that he's not the only one who makes the sacrifices... that she can too, based on her freedom to choose to love him. He needs to learn that he can't make that choice for her, no matter how painful it is for her and for him. Furthermore, he needs to also come to grips with the fact that he cannot protect her from everything especially matter related to the heart because to love is to give. The bigger love... the bigger the giving.

I think it's interesting how the writer pushes this relationship to its extreme in a way she didn't with Uk. I don't want to compare those two relationship too much because I think this relationship does stand well on its own.

The choice of marrying the little princess was his (So) but the choice of accepting So's marriage to the princess as a politically expedient move was hers (Su). He took that choice from her when he refused to give her an explanation. Yes, it was a repulsive thing to her but as a man who had been working so hard to prove to her that he loved her, not giving her an explanation left her high and dry. My belief is that it hurt her more that he didn't trust her enough to explain things to her than the fact that he married the princess at all. 

I can't say at this stage if this is a foreshadowing of when he "has to" marry YH but I imagine it will be similar kind of scenario. In that scenario Su will be asked to sacrifice her own beliefs about polygamy once again and she will show perhaps that her love for him outweighs any of her scruples about marrying expediently. It's probably what YH meant when she says that Su shouldn't be too careless about saying that she won't change.

Trust is a fragile thing in this drama. So feels terrible about breaking faith with Su. Su feels terrible because she doesn't know why he did it, why he acted out of character. Not knowing hurts her most. Hence she breaks faith with him in the incident of Jeong hiding in her room. She knows he knows she's lying but she doesn't really care for a whole heap of reasons but primarily because their ability to communicate has come to a screeching halt. I don't believe that she chooses Jeong over So in this instance, I think it's more that she's giving him the silent treatment because he took away her right to properly respond to the 500 kg elephant between them.

Thankfully love wins the day. Perhaps there is jealousy mixed in it but it doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, So could've broken down that door as he wanted to. In fact the old So would most likely have done it. But this is a So that now knows love. He knows enough about love to want to know the truth even if it hurts him. He loves her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt and demands an explanation.

When adults love each other they ask for/give explanations not assume things or treat each other like children that need to be cocooned. It is a hard thing to do but it is ultimately the only way forward... to build the foundations for even more difficult times ahead.

I do think ultimately that's the purpose of the premonitions. It's to build trust. To test Su and to help her make those hard choices to love So wholeheartedly even when all her instincts draw her in other directions. If she can be his person with complete abandon despite the premonitions, she will love him even without rank or recognition even if it ends up killing her.

Let's not be too hard on them... they're both still learning.

You and @briseis always help me love ML more! Thank you very much for always sharing your insights with us.

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50 minutes ago, soorani said:

My friend just sent me a really great analysis she found on this Tumblr and I absolutely loved it so here you go: 

It seems like she analyzed every episode till now.. well I found something to do while waiting for tomorrow's episode :D

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Scarlet Heart: Ryeo Episodes 14-15

It took me a while to get this one up, and it’s not even as long or complicated as my usual reviews, I just had a hard time sitting down and doing it. For the first time since this show began to air at the end of August, I found myself kind of relieved that the episodes were over and I got a bit of a reprieve. Not because I thought this week was bad, by no means. But I’ve felt so emotionally strung out with this story for the last two weeks, it was nice to have a few days to regroup.

I feel us hurtling headlong toward the end of the show—only 5 episodes left—and I’m not prepared. I’m just stalking up on lotion fortified tissues and bracing myself.

Scanning through other commentary and my askbox, disappointment seems to be the word of the week. Disappointment with Jung and his attitude toward So. Disappointment with Soo especially, for all kind of things. Because she didn’t trust So and tell him where Eun and Soon Deol were hiding. Because she didn’t detect and stop Moo’s poisoning. Because of her lack of history knowledge. Because she hasn’t done more to try to change the future. And even because she waited two years to accept So’s feelings. She just couldn’t do anything right.

image

A lot of people on my dash already jettisoned the SoSoo loveline long ago. They were primed early on by 4th prince’s death threats and physical intimidation, and the forced kiss at the end of 9 cinched it. Into the garbage with the whole ship. Which is totally fine, ship and let ship. I was down for this kind of unhealthy, high-risk, high-intensity relationship from page one, so it was going to take a lot to scare me off. But though I have been at various times called “So apologist” I don’t feel a particular devotion to one character or another, not so far as to sacrifice the narrative as a whole. For me characterization trumps a swoony romance every day of the week. As long as all the characters are consistent I’m happy.

Let me not be accused of being more empathetic toward my male characters than I am toward my female characters. Let it not be said I’m less cognizant of the consistency in Soo’s character development than I am of So’s.

I didn’t see the fandom at large close ranks and defend Hae Soo this week, and it would have been nice to see at least as much passion about the legitimacy of her feelings as there was for So after the forced kiss. I’m not sure why it always seems to work that way. Is it because of the way people feel about IU? Just the tendency of Kdrama fandom at large to be harder on the female characters than it is on male characters? Or maybe it’s in some part people comparing Soo unfavorably to Rouxi from the original Cdrama. Is it just that she’s the main female character, she’s front and center all the time, and so we have the tendency to over analyze and criticize everything she does?

The thing that really makes me itch is the idea that Soo is being held to this impossible standard that no human person would be able to maintain. A higher standard, indeed, than the other characters in the show, male and female. She is really in an impossible position and considering what she’s been through, I think any other choice she could have made would have been out of character.

Soo has so many people giving her advice it’s crazy. She has Ji Mong in one ear, telling her that she can’t do anything but watch things unfold. Under no condition should she attempt to meddle with history. She has the late King in the other ear telling her that she shouldn’t be so wrapped up in what is going to happen in the future that she loses what she currently has. Rattling around in her head are also the words of her late mentor: don’t trust anyone, especially not the words of princes, the palace changes people. She has her recent painful experience with Wook corroborating that. She has a lover ready to abnegate his principles and personal well being in exchange for her safety, and to top it all off she has disturbing premonitions she can’t tell anybody about showing that same lover is going to murder Eun and Soon Deok, Soo’s dear friends.

imageimage

In that situation, what would you do? There are bigger things at play here than whether Soo trusts So deep down. But sure, at the risk of your friends lives and your own lifelong happiness, trust your boyfriend. What could possibly go wrong?

But framing this conversation in terms of trust is probably the wrong way to think about it. Because Ido think that Soo trusts So, that has been demonstrated over and over again. 

image

But there’s a difference between trusting someone, and expecting them to behave outside of their established pattern and personal interests. Soo has already seen So bow and swear allegiance to a brother he hates over the murdered body of a brother he dearly loved in order to save her. She knows what value he places on her life, she knows what he would be willing to do to keep her safe. And that’s a double-edged sword. On one hand it can give her a sense of absolute security as he stands by her side, on the other hand it gives her ever reason to fear what he could do if the situation arises where her values and her personal safety are placed at odds.

Would he do something Soo found morally abhorrent if it was the only way to save her life? The answer is yes. Absolutely yes.

The incident where Soo hides Jung in her room is kind of a dry run for what happens with Eun and Soon Deok. Soo and So clearly demonstrate their priorities, and establish the parameters for honesty and trust in their relationship in episode 14.

At the top of Soo’s list is the lives and happiness of all the brothers, above any of her romantic relationships. That has always been the case. She loves So, certainly, but she would not sacrifice a single one of her princes in order to be with him. 

image

She still refuses to choose sides, even though Jung calls her naive for trying to play referee in an untenable situation. She’ll still put herself bodily between her friends and So, if that’s what it takes, and threaten her own life to keep everyone safe and alive.

image

At the top of So’s priority list is Soo’s life and safety. But Soo’s life doesn’t necessarily equate to her desires or approval. He has demonstrated that he will make decisions which put her happiness at risk, but not her life. He tries to protect her happiness because he loves her, but if it comes down to not getting married because she won’t like it and sending a small child to suffer as a hostage in Khitan, his choice is clear. He’ll try to avoid to killing his brothers because he knows it will scar her, but there might be instances where he can’t avoid it. And he acknowledges that. He said so when she asked him to spare Wook. It was demonstrated when he fought Yo on the cliffs. And it is the subtext of the situation with Eun. He’ll do everything he can to save Eun’s life, but there’s no way he can guarantee it.

She never directly lies to So about Eun, she only withholds information, which in her mind is consistent with the established ground rules of their relationship.

image

Soo doesn’t want to be the reason So does something to his brothers. Whether because he loves her or because he is trying to protect her, she doesn’t want to put him in the position to make that choice.

It might not meet your romantic ideal, but I think her decision is respectable. The SoSoo relationship is still wildly imperfect, but I think that’s part of what makes it fascinating. Certainly there is this idea that love cannot exist where there isn’t trust. Or that loving someone and fearing them are mutually exclusive concepts. But I don’t think that’s the case for SoSoo. I think Soo has decided to love So in the moment and not hold his future actions against him, even though she has knowledge of them—or at least believes she has knowledge of them. She believes in her heart that he is eventually going to scar her, but she has decided to be with him anyway.

image

Loving someone with the expectation that they will eventually break your trust and break your heart is definitely not a healthy way to approach a new relationship, but Soo has been hurt too many times by the men she loved to believe in their promises. What’s more, she has her own recollection of history and her frightening visions assuring her that So is going to turn into a monster before her eyes, but she’s chosen him anyway. She’s offered up her heart, fully believing that there’s just another dagger waiting for it. To my mind, that makes her incredibly courageous.

In addition to her conduct toward So, the other big gripe I’ve seen about Soo—not just this week but pretty solidly since the rain ritual—is that she isn’t doing enough to try to change the future, or that she isn’t going about it the right way. But this week we got confirmation of something that I’ve long doubted was even possible: history is changing and Soo is the reason why.

image

Not only have we gotten confirmation of changing timelines, but some actual insight into how. From what and into what. Ji Mong’s words to So seem to confirm something I’ve long speculated about, but have had no way to test or confirm. We appear to be moving from an alternate time line to a true time line. Soo’s future and history knowledge is actually the alternate history, and we are moving closer to the version of events recorded in the true history of the period. In the alternate time line So is a murderous psychopath who kills his entire family and his long term subjects without remorse. Yo is a traitor, but never takes the throne.

It seems that the details of the visions themselves are not changing, but perhaps some of the circumstances are changing. And the affect around them.

I think it comes down to her giving So reason not to want to kill his brothers, motivation to be good, not to kill without reason. The old “Wolf Dog” So would probably not have held back when he was fighting Yo. The old So would not have hesitated to run him through. But the So who believes there is a real possibility he will lose Soo forever if he kills one of his brothers, held back. I think if we can pinpoint it anywhere, that is the moment where the details of history began to change. I think Yo was supposed to die there in the original timeline, and because he didn’t he ended up on the throne.

If we think about the reasons why Soo is here and the effect that she’s having, we have to think back to her last conversation with Taejo, when he told her that the reason she was there in the past was to assist Crown Prince Moo in rising to the throne. She did exactly what she was supposed to do in that instance. She withheld information from Wook, who was fomenting rebellion, she gave the information to So who was loyal to the Crown Prince.

The things that she was not meant to do was warn Wook about So, which has had a large influence on Wook’s trajectory after his fall, as well as his suspicion and animosity toward his 4th brother. What she wasn’t supposed to do was warn So off his predestined path. To warn him to be cautious, not to kill anyone, not to hurt his brothers, not to draw his sword without good reason. I would argue that her “lectures” which he is always dismissing, but seems to have taken deeply to heart in some ways, combined with his ever-deepening lover for her had a direct impact in allowing Yo to survive and changing the timeline.

If So had never met Soo, if he had never fallen in love with her, if she hadn’t made her fear of his violent ways so incredibly clear and given him a reason to keep his brothers a live (i.e. not to scar her) then I think he would have killed Yo right then and there and history would have played out the way that Ji Mong was expecting.

Since the question is one of determinism vs. the ability to change the future, it’s hard to say if the situation with Eun will be changed in the same way. Afterall, Soo’s visions still predict Eun’s death. And it’s not clear if her interference and attempts to get Eun and Soon Deok out of the palace without So’s help, will directly result in the fall out that she was trying to avoid (the self-fulfilling prophecy) or if she has managed to sway things in any way by her interference.

It’s hard to say if she’s changing the course of history or this was always the way things were meant to play out, and she’s in the past to guarantee that the course of things gets corrected. What is clear is that she has had an effect on So’s personality. He is not the kind of person who would murder a brother in cold blood and laugh about it. He is the kind of person who would deeply regret and weep over the death of a brother, even an evil brother. And I believe in some part, Soo is the reason for that.

 

Jona

http://overthinkingkdrama.tumblr.com/post/151898395592/scarlet-heart-ryeo-episodes-14-15

 

 
 

 

 

I love her tumblr! http://overthinkingkdrama.tumblr.com/

She writes intelligent posts and character analyses.

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2 hours ago, yongwonhi4jfc said:

 

Hey there, hopefully I can give a sufficient explanation. 

The queue was a hairstyle worn by most men in the Qing Dynasty that was implemented on Han Chinese by the Jurchen/Manchus when they ruled China. Hair to the Manchus are prized possession - "important symbol of power and perhaps virility" (Kutcher, 2006:90).

When RX grabbed 4th's braid (or a queue) and asked to be the sole person to touch is to isolate her as the only person to know of his weakness. To be fair, 4th did say RX is the only one who dares to grab an emperor's queue. The act of grabbing someone's braid in Mandarin is: 抓小辫子 (zhua xiaobianzi) is to capitalise on someone's vulnerable point - or also known as having someone wrapped around your little finger. So ultimately RX wants 4th to only be vulnerable and emotionally intimate with her. Obviously that's a big deal since the mighty ruthless 4th never shows compassion unless it comes to RX.

Manchus also have another tradition - they cut the long queue to show grief, "show their loss, and give up some virility as a means of self-punishment. Like rendering of garments, these were acts of self-destructiveness designed to counteract feelings of guilt and pain" (ibid). So you can read that leaving scene as 4th remembers how RX tugged on his queue previously, mourning for the loss of RX leaving as she holds the sole power to his vulnerability, or even contemplating to cut his queue short to rid his pain for RX.

Source: Kutcher, 2006. Mourning in Late Imperial China: Filial Piety and the State. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

@ddeokbokkii  

Just to add on a little more to @yongwonhi4jfc's excellent explanation on the Manchu queue.  

The scene with Ruoxi holding on to 4th prince's queue is not in the novel. This was an added on scene based on Nicky Wu's interpretation of 4th prince/Yongzhen. Based on historical records, Yongzhen had the habit of holding on to his queue as he was a very controlled individual. Other than not wanting anyone to catch his vulnerability/weakness (抓小辫子), he didn't like the queue to move while he walked. Hence holding on to his queue became a habit. Nicky Wu was very thorough in his research and thus the PD decided to incorporate this into the show, instead of some other parts in the novel - resulting in a very memorable and private moment between 4th prince and Ruoxi that only they knew. 

Another trivial (not related to the queue), Nicky Wu commented that the hardest scene for him to film was the crying scene when he read Ruoxi's letter. This scene is not in the novel as the book was written only from Ruoxi's POV. The scene was filmed without a partner to bring him into the emotional depth of 4th prince. He had to dig deep into the abyss of his emotions to act out that scene and by the time he was done - he almost collapsed from exhaustion. That scene is still deeply etched in my mind as it was so raw and painful to watch. 

Perhaps that's why most of us are dreading the last few episodes...given the prowess of LJG's acting - he will definitely nail that scene and make it his own. (I am heaving a big sigh while writing this.) But before we get there, let's enjoy the So-Soo lovey moments first.   

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A bit surprised we're no longer hot topic when I open Soompi forum these past week. But well, hope we're still on fire for the last 5 episodes!

Finally MOONDAY!!!!! :D

 

ps: enjoying all the discussions on what's to come! keep 'em coming guys!

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1 hour ago, soorani said:

My friend just sent me a really great analysis she found on this Tumblr and I absolutely loved it so here you go: 

It seems like she analyzed every episode till now.. well I found something to do while waiting for tomorrow's episode :D

  Hide contents

 

Scarlet Heart: Ryeo Episodes 14-15

It took me a while to get this one up, and it’s not even as long or complicated as my usual reviews, I just had a hard time sitting down and doing it. For the first time since this show began to air at the end of August, I found myself kind of relieved that the episodes were over and I got a bit of a reprieve. Not because I thought this week was bad, by no means. But I’ve felt so emotionally strung out with this story for the last two weeks, it was nice to have a few days to regroup.

I feel us hurtling headlong toward the end of the show—only 5 episodes left—and I’m not prepared. I’m just stalking up on lotion fortified tissues and bracing myself.

Scanning through other commentary and my askbox, disappointment seems to be the word of the week. Disappointment with Jung and his attitude toward So. Disappointment with Soo especially, for all kind of things. Because she didn’t trust So and tell him where Eun and Soon Deol were hiding. Because she didn’t detect and stop Moo’s poisoning. Because of her lack of history knowledge. Because she hasn’t done more to try to change the future. And even because she waited two years to accept So’s feelings. She just couldn’t do anything right.

image

A lot of people on my dash already jettisoned the SoSoo loveline long ago. They were primed early on by 4th prince’s death threats and physical intimidation, and the forced kiss at the end of 9 cinched it. Into the garbage with the whole ship. Which is totally fine, ship and let ship. I was down for this kind of unhealthy, high-risk, high-intensity relationship from page one, so it was going to take a lot to scare me off. But though I have been at various times called “So apologist” I don’t feel a particular devotion to one character or another, not so far as to sacrifice the narrative as a whole. For me characterization trumps a swoony romance every day of the week. As long as all the characters are consistent I’m happy.

Let me not be accused of being more empathetic toward my male characters than I am toward my female characters. Let it not be said I’m less cognizant of the consistency in Soo’s character development than I am of So’s.

I didn’t see the fandom at large close ranks and defend Hae Soo this week, and it would have been nice to see at least as much passion about the legitimacy of her feelings as there was for So after the forced kiss. I’m not sure why it always seems to work that way. Is it because of the way people feel about IU? Just the tendency of Kdrama fandom at large to be harder on the female characters than it is on male characters? Or maybe it’s in some part people comparing Soo unfavorably to Rouxi from the original Cdrama. Is it just that she’s the main female character, she’s front and center all the time, and so we have the tendency to over analyze and criticize everything she does?

The thing that really makes me itch is the idea that Soo is being held to this impossible standard that no human person would be able to maintain. A higher standard, indeed, than the other characters in the show, male and female. She is really in an impossible position and considering what she’s been through, I think any other choice she could have made would have been out of character.

Soo has so many people giving her advice it’s crazy. She has Ji Mong in one ear, telling her that she can’t do anything but watch things unfold. Under no condition should she attempt to meddle with history. She has the late King in the other ear telling her that she shouldn’t be so wrapped up in what is going to happen in the future that she loses what she currently has. Rattling around in her head are also the words of her late mentor: don’t trust anyone, especially not the words of princes, the palace changes people. She has her recent painful experience with Wook corroborating that. She has a lover ready to abnegate his principles and personal well being in exchange for her safety, and to top it all off she has disturbing premonitions she can’t tell anybody about showing that same lover is going to murder Eun and Soon Deok, Soo’s dear friends.

imageimage

In that situation, what would you do? There are bigger things at play here than whether Soo trusts So deep down. But sure, at the risk of your friends lives and your own lifelong happiness, trust your boyfriend. What could possibly go wrong?

But framing this conversation in terms of trust is probably the wrong way to think about it. Because Ido think that Soo trusts So, that has been demonstrated over and over again. 

image

But there’s a difference between trusting someone, and expecting them to behave outside of their established pattern and personal interests. Soo has already seen So bow and swear allegiance to a brother he hates over the murdered body of a brother he dearly loved in order to save her. She knows what value he places on her life, she knows what he would be willing to do to keep her safe. And that’s a double-edged sword. On one hand it can give her a sense of absolute security as he stands by her side, on the other hand it gives her ever reason to fear what he could do if the situation arises where her values and her personal safety are placed at odds.

Would he do something Soo found morally abhorrent if it was the only way to save her life? The answer is yes. Absolutely yes.

The incident where Soo hides Jung in her room is kind of a dry run for what happens with Eun and Soon Deok. Soo and So clearly demonstrate their priorities, and establish the parameters for honesty and trust in their relationship in episode 14.

At the top of Soo’s list is the lives and happiness of all the brothers, above any of her romantic relationships. That has always been the case. She loves So, certainly, but she would not sacrifice a single one of her princes in order to be with him. 

image

She still refuses to choose sides, even though Jung calls her naive for trying to play referee in an untenable situation. She’ll still put herself bodily between her friends and So, if that’s what it takes, and threaten her own life to keep everyone safe and alive.

image

At the top of So’s priority list is Soo’s life and safety. But Soo’s life doesn’t necessarily equate to her desires or approval. He has demonstrated that he will make decisions which put her happiness at risk, but not her life. He tries to protect her happiness because he loves her, but if it comes down to not getting married because she won’t like it and sending a small child to suffer as a hostage in Khitan, his choice is clear. He’ll try to avoid to killing his brothers because he knows it will scar her, but there might be instances where he can’t avoid it. And he acknowledges that. He said so when she asked him to spare Wook. It was demonstrated when he fought Yo on the cliffs. And it is the subtext of the situation with Eun. He’ll do everything he can to save Eun’s life, but there’s no way he can guarantee it.

She never directly lies to So about Eun, she only withholds information, which in her mind is consistent with the established ground rules of their relationship.

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Soo doesn’t want to be the reason So does something to his brothers. Whether because he loves her or because he is trying to protect her, she doesn’t want to put him in the position to make that choice.

It might not meet your romantic ideal, but I think her decision is respectable. The SoSoo relationship is still wildly imperfect, but I think that’s part of what makes it fascinating. Certainly there is this idea that love cannot exist where there isn’t trust. Or that loving someone and fearing them are mutually exclusive concepts. But I don’t think that’s the case for SoSoo. I think Soo has decided to love So in the moment and not hold his future actions against him, even though she has knowledge of them—or at least believes she has knowledge of them. She believes in her heart that he is eventually going to scar her, but she has decided to be with him anyway.

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Loving someone with the expectation that they will eventually break your trust and break your heart is definitely not a healthy way to approach a new relationship, but Soo has been hurt too many times by the men she loved to believe in their promises. What’s more, she has her own recollection of history and her frightening visions assuring her that So is going to turn into a monster before her eyes, but she’s chosen him anyway. She’s offered up her heart, fully believing that there’s just another dagger waiting for it. To my mind, that makes her incredibly courageous.

In addition to her conduct toward So, the other big gripe I’ve seen about Soo—not just this week but pretty solidly since the rain ritual—is that she isn’t doing enough to try to change the future, or that she isn’t going about it the right way. But this week we got confirmation of something that I’ve long doubted was even possible: history is changing and Soo is the reason why.

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Not only have we gotten confirmation of changing timelines, but some actual insight into how. From what and into what. Ji Mong’s words to So seem to confirm something I’ve long speculated about, but have had no way to test or confirm. We appear to be moving from an alternate time line to a true time line. Soo’s future and history knowledge is actually the alternate history, and we are moving closer to the version of events recorded in the true history of the period. In the alternate time line So is a murderous psychopath who kills his entire family and his long term subjects without remorse. Yo is a traitor, but never takes the throne.

It seems that the details of the visions themselves are not changing, but perhaps some of the circumstances are changing. And the affect around them.

I think it comes down to her giving So reason not to want to kill his brothers, motivation to be good, not to kill without reason. The old “Wolf Dog” So would probably not have held back when he was fighting Yo. The old So would not have hesitated to run him through. But the So who believes there is a real possibility he will lose Soo forever if he kills one of his brothers, held back. I think if we can pinpoint it anywhere, that is the moment where the details of history began to change. I think Yo was supposed to die there in the original timeline, and because he didn’t he ended up on the throne.

If we think about the reasons why Soo is here and the effect that she’s having, we have to think back to her last conversation with Taejo, when he told her that the reason she was there in the past was to assist Crown Prince Moo in rising to the throne. She did exactly what she was supposed to do in that instance. She withheld information from Wook, who was fomenting rebellion, she gave the information to So who was loyal to the Crown Prince.

The things that she was not meant to do was warn Wook about So, which has had a large influence on Wook’s trajectory after his fall, as well as his suspicion and animosity toward his 4th brother. What she wasn’t supposed to do was warn So off his predestined path. To warn him to be cautious, not to kill anyone, not to hurt his brothers, not to draw his sword without good reason. I would argue that her “lectures” which he is always dismissing, but seems to have taken deeply to heart in some ways, combined with his ever-deepening lover for her had a direct impact in allowing Yo to survive and changing the timeline.

If So had never met Soo, if he had never fallen in love with her, if she hadn’t made her fear of his violent ways so incredibly clear and given him a reason to keep his brothers a live (i.e. not to scar her) then I think he would have killed Yo right then and there and history would have played out the way that Ji Mong was expecting.

Since the question is one of determinism vs. the ability to change the future, it’s hard to say if the situation with Eun will be changed in the same way. Afterall, Soo’s visions still predict Eun’s death. And it’s not clear if her interference and attempts to get Eun and Soon Deok out of the palace without So’s help, will directly result in the fall out that she was trying to avoid (the self-fulfilling prophecy) or if she has managed to sway things in any way by her interference.

It’s hard to say if she’s changing the course of history or this was always the way things were meant to play out, and she’s in the past to guarantee that the course of things gets corrected. What is clear is that she has had an effect on So’s personality. He is not the kind of person who would murder a brother in cold blood and laugh about it. He is the kind of person who would deeply regret and weep over the death of a brother, even an evil brother. And I believe in some part, Soo is the reason for that.

 

Jona

http://overthinkingkdrama.tumblr.com/post/151898395592/scarlet-heart-ryeo-episodes-14-15

 

 
 

 

 

Thanks for sharing such thought provoking analysis :) I totally agree with this view... maybe I am too quick to defend HS but I can understand where she is coming from. I don't necessarily find her inconsistent due to poor writing -- I think you just can't expect consistency when circumstances -- and feelings -- are ever changing. 

For HS I never saw her reluctance to tell WS everything as distrust. She trusts him, but I don't think she trusts what the world will do to him. Given that she is getting conflicting advice from everyone, what she knows about WS, and what she has been seeing in her visions ... I don't blame her for trying to cover all her bases. I think it isn't a matter of not trusting WS enough to tell her about WE and SD; she probably thinks that she is protecting him from fulfilling the prophecy by not involving him in her plans to help them escape. She has seen how torn up WS was when he thought he killed WY; since sweet WE was more of a brother to WS than WY was, she can only imagine how terrible he would feel if he had to be the one to kill him. On the other hand, what if by telling WS initially, and having him help them escape, they get found out and he ends up having to kill WE and SD anyway? It is easy for us to blame her for not telling WS, but since we never had visibility to a future where she does tell him, we will never know if that does or doesn't change anything (as it may all end up the same way anyway). 

Anyway, that's just my two cents :) 

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Welcome to the thread @pass3rby! As you said, it's better late than never! We've been pampered with extensive discussions on theories, historical facts, speculations, official pictures, gifs any many more here by our beloved Eclipses here! Hope you're delurking more  often and join the discussion! :D

 

 

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16 minutes ago, pass3rby said:

Hai, I am a newbee in this forum. I am still learning how to use it. Kinda too late. but better late than never. I didn't read all 25 thousand or so posts, but i read the last hundreds of pages B). Normally i don't do comments in forum or any other cyber world media. No twitter, no facebook, no instagram, no tumblr, nothing. Just enjoy things for myself. But SHR is different. It's so good that makes me bad. I am so addicted and obsessed. I wasn't a person of cyber world. I like "real" things. But this has made me go into cyber world and wandering in it for days, even weeks.

I need people who suffer the same obsession (Gawd help me). I couldn't sleep, i couldn't eat, i couldn't work because of it. Basically my life is ruined. It's all because of SHR. But luckily i am enjoying this.

I found that SHR has many powerful scenes with stunning cinematography. Relies on the casts' acting instead of dense dialog. And it's like a poem. Full of emotion and open for different interpretation.

i love how @briseis  make interpretation of some scenes. I read most of them. It's like I am reading a novel about So and Soo. Many interpretation made my heart ached and fluttered.

I am grateful to find this forum.

same here, dear... MLSHR is such a guilty pleasure...

dont worry,  in this forum, we go grazy together :w00t:

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7 minutes ago, Akiddo said:

@ddeokbokkii  

Just to add on a little more to @yongwonhi4jfc's excellent explanation on the Manchu queue.  

The scene with Ruoxi holding on to 4th prince's queue is not in the novel. This was an added on scene based on Nicky Wu's interpretation of 4th prince/Yongzhen. Based on historical records, Yongzhen had the habit of holding on to his queue as he was a very controlled individual. Other than not wanting anyone to catch his vulnerability/weakness (抓小辫子), he didn't like the queue to move while he walked. Hence holding on to his queue became a habit. Nicky Wu was very thorough in his research and thus the PD decided to incorporate this into the show, instead of some other parts in the novel - resulting in a very memorable and private moment between 4th prince and Ruoxi that only they knew. 

Another trivial (not related to the queue), Nicky Wu commented that the hardest scene for him to film was the crying scene when he read Ruoxi's letter. This scene is not in the novel as the book was written only from Ruoxi's POV. The scene was filmed without a partner to bring him into the emotional depth of 4th prince. He had to dig deep into the abyss of his emotions to act out that scene and by the time he was done - he almost collapsed from exhaustion. That scene is still deeply etched in my mind as it was so raw and painful to watch. 

Perhaps that's why most of us are dreading the last few episodes...given the prowess of LJG's acting - he will definitely nail that scene and make it his own. (I am heaving a big sigh while writing this.) But before we get there, let's enjoy the So-Soo lovey moments first.   

 

Thank you for your additional in depth explanation I didn't expect that. I have not read the book, so all these info you added are completely new to me. Thank you so much.

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5 minutes ago, pass3rby said:
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Baseball game on Monday......

 

Yeah, but SBS will air episode 16 if the game ends on time before 9.20pm KST. so let's have a pray circle that whichever team that play the game tonight will end it asap :grimace:

@wordsmyth0253 I love your pun here #상처받았소 :D

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