[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] Heavy Sweetness Ash-like Frost 香蜜沉沉烬如霜

[kokodus]

4 hours ago, Bojun said:

Checked out Viki and I was laughing at some of the timed comments. The minimal monthly fee is worth it because those interspersed ads break the flow of watching.  

Ikr?!?! The subs are also way better than the Netflix subs. More contextual. With many footnotes and everything. Haha. 

[bluesytb]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:31 PM, Bojun said:

 

I'm in the process of re-watching the drama to make sure I did not miss any detail. This time I will skip the episodes I did not like. As parting words I tried watching Ten Miles of Peach Blossoms but I just can't connect with it. The chemistry between the leads seem off for me. I'll probably watch it in the future for the sake of watching but not with the same sense of urgency as Ashes of Love.   

 

I honestly dropped TMOPB since I actually hated it.  For the most part I found it boring & very uncomfortable to watch. 

The reason why is that I absolutely despise men who force themselves on women, & that was a big part of this drama "Oh you've lost your memories?  I'm just gonna force myself on you until you submit"  

I dropped it at the rape scene (He says "I want you".  She says "No".  He locks the door and magics her clothes away and is on top of her.) To me this is irresponsible & dangerous writing because media does reinforce behavior & status quo - maybe not if it's one instance, but repeated instances will definitely reinforce ideas - so therefore it's not a stretch to see how unchecked media can, in this instances reinforce the idea that "Oh but I thought she wanted it/I know she wanted it" line of thinking.  You can even point to songs like Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines "I know you want it" or for other C-dramas - The Eternal Love 2 & The Flame's Daughter or for countless American films.  

If you want some links for analyzing media, PopCulture Detective has good content & there's also Micheal Parenti's Make Believe Media for a start.          

 

The reason I loved HSALF is because the main leads fall for each other slowly & it's evident in like episode 6 that they both really like each other, & fall even more in love during the mortal stage, There's no chasing & ML doesn't force himself on FL (unless you count the time @ demon realm, & yeah I did hate that part tbh).  

[Bojun]

17 hours ago, kokodus said:

Ikr?!?! The subs are also way better than the Netflix subs. More contextual. With many footnotes and everything. Haha. 

Finding it hard to rewatch the earlier episodes now because every time I see Runyu scheming for JinMi I immediately fast forward till I see a JinMi Xufeng moment. Lol

[kokodus]

2 hours ago, Bojun said:

Finding it hard to rewatch the earlier episodes now because every time I see Runyu scheming for JinMi I immediately fast forward till I see a JinMi Xufeng moment. Lol

You are basically me. Although the hate comments for Runyu in the later eps were so hilarious. They called him all kinds of names. LOL. I disliked Runyu from the becoming. There were some people who blamed Xufeng for sleeping with the girl engaged to his brother. I see their point. But he manipulated his way to get engaged to her. He already knew Xufeng loved her, Jinmi doesn't understand what love is at that time, but Runyu very well knew it. Runyu was the one who broke the bro code first. I also think he never loved Jinmi. He only wanted to use her to get to Xufeng. But what I like about this drama is that eventhough RunYu did all this horrible things to everyone, he had a damn good reason. His entire family is destroyed by the heavenly emperor and empress. Xufeng is at fault too, he is a very good son, but he turned a blind eye to their parents wrongdoings. Runyu is not an evil person per se. He was blinded by the need to get revenge. I can even forgive him for doing all those things to everyone because they all deserved it, including Xufeng. But what he did to Jinmi is unforgivable. She was not related to any of this. She is a child. He should not have included her in his revenge plan. The actor who played RunYu had done an amazing job, I must say.

[Bojun]

27 minutes ago, kokodus said:

You are basically me. Although the hate comments for Runyu in the later eps were so hilarious. They called him all kinds of names. LOL. I disliked Runyu from the becoming. There were some people who blamed Xufeng for sleeping with the girl engaged to his brother. I see their point. But he manipulated his way to get engaged to her. He already knew Xufeng loved her, Jinmi doesn't understand what love is at that time, but Runyu very well knew it. Runyu was the one who broke the bro code first. I also think he never loved Jinmi. He only wanted to use her to get to Xufeng. But what I like about this drama is that eventhough RunYu did all this horrible things to everyone, he had a damn good reason. His entire family is destroyed by the heavenly emperor and empress. Xufeng is at fault too, he is a very good son, but he turned a blind eye to their parents wrongdoings. Runyu is not an evil person per se. He was blinded by the need to get revenge. I can even forgive him for doing all those things to everyone because they all deserved it, including Xufeng. But what he did to Jinmi is unforgivable. She was not related to any of this. She is a child. He should not have included her in his revenge plan. The actor who played RunYu had done an amazing job, I must say.

I agree with everything you said especially the actor playing Runyu. But viewers should differentiate real from reel because hate the character but not the actor. Sadly many fans do not know how to differentiate. On a side note I never get tried rewatching episodes 60-63. 
 

[bluehibiscus]

20 hours ago, bluesytb said:

The reason why is that I absolutely despise men who force themselves on women, & that was a big part of this drama "Oh you've lost your memories?  I'm just gonna force myself on you until you submit"  

I dropped it at the rape scene (He says "I want you".  She says "No".  He locks the door and magics her clothes away and is on top of her.) To me this is irresponsible & dangerous writing because media does reinforce behavior & status quo - maybe not if it's one instance, but repeated instances will definitely reinforce ideas - so therefore it's not a stretch to see how unchecked media can, in this instances reinforce the idea that "Oh but I thought she wanted it/I know she wanted it" line of thinking.  You can even point to songs like Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines "I know you want it" or for other C-dramas - The Eternal Love 2 & The Flame's Daughter or for countless American films.  

If you want some links for analyzing media, PopCulture Detective has good content & there's also Micheal Parenti's Make Believe Media for a start.          

 

The reason I loved HSALF is because the main leads fall for each other slowly & it's evident in like episode 6 that they both really like each other, & fall even more in love during the mortal stage, There's no chasing & ML doesn't force himself on FL (unless you count the time @ demon realm, & yeah I did hate that part tbh).  

 

What won many viewers over was Ye Hua’s deep love and utter devotion to Baiqian. Most of the time, he was trying to woo her and win her affections again by spending as much time with her as possible.

 

There was one scene where he forcefully kissed her but things didn’t go further. Just to clarify, in the scene you described as rape, Baiqian did not actually say the word “no”. 

Spoiler

She offered to repay him because he was doing her a big favour and said she would do her best to give him what he wanted. When he said he wanted her, she was embarrassed, asked him to treat it as she hadn’t said those words and tried to leave. That was when he closed the doors with his magic but when he carried her to the bed, she didn’t object, only said his name. When she tried to get up, he kissed her and she didn’t say “no” either. 

I understand that in real life, a verbal “no” is not necessary but this is fiction. Before that scene, Baiqian already revealed to her brother that she liked Ye Hua. She also affirmed to Ye Hua the affection was mutual after they did the act so I think most viewers don’t see it as rape. Another mitigating reason why Ye Hua didn’t want to wait anymore was

Spoiler

because he had decided to attempt something that was very dangerous on Baiqian’s behalf so she wouldn’t lose her life doing it so this was possibly his last chance with her.

However, we are all different so I respect that the drama didn’t work for you.

[bluehibiscus]

6 hours ago, Bojun said:

Finding it hard to rewatch the earlier episodes now because every time I see Runyu scheming for JinMi I immediately fast forward till I see a JinMi Xufeng moment. Lol

 

I loved Ashes of Love when it was airing, waiting eagerly for each new episode but I still find the premise of why JM could kill XF a bit flawed. I also didn’t enjoy the episodes that focus mostly on RY. I’ve since moved on to other dramas so the details are not as fresh in my memory anymore. Did you watch the behind-the-scene clips? They are really good though I’m not sure if there are Eng subs.

 

By the way, I’m not sure if you’ve realised it but clicking on the little heart in the corner of each post allows you to express your reaction to that particular post. This also helps to increase the points of the poster which can’t be redeemed for anything; they are purely for fun.

[kokodus]

35 minutes ago, bluehibiscus said:

 

What won many viewers over was Ye Hua’s deep love and utter devotion to Baiqian. Most of the time, he was trying to woo her and win her affections again by spending as much time with her as possible.

 

There was one scene where he forcefully kissed her but things didn’t go further. Just to clarify, in the scene you described as rape, Baiqian did not actually say the word “no”. 

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She offered to repay him because he was doing her a big favour and said she would do her best to give him what he wanted. When he said he wanted her, she was embarrassed, asked him to treat it as she hadn’t said those words and tried to leave. That was when he closed the doors with his magic but when he carried her to the bed, she didn’t object, only said his name. When she tried to get up, he kissed her and she didn’t say “no” either. 

I understand that in real life, a verbal “no” is not necessary but this is fiction. Before that scene, Baiqian already revealed to her brother that she liked Ye Hua. She also affirmed to Ye Hua the affection was mutual after they did the act so I think most viewers don’t see it as rape. Another mitigating reason why Ye Hua didn’t want to wait anymore was

  Hide contents

because he had decided to attempt something that was very dangerous on Baiqian’s behalf so she wouldn’t lose her life doing it so this was possibly his last chance with her.

However, we are all different so I respect that the drama didn’t work for you.

I agree with everything you said. My thoughts were along the same lines. I want to add that Bai Qian was also a high goddess and is equally stronger, if she didn't want it she would've used her strength and got her out herself. She gave in. I just see that scene as Ye hua taking the lead. It didn't come across as himself forcing on her as there was no restraint from her part. 

 

But still, yes I can understand why it didn't sit well with some people. For me it worked because it's a fantasy drama. And Ye hua stole my heart from the very beginning. Haha. The thought that he wouldnt do anything to hurt her was instilled in my heart. LOL. 

[kokodus]

3 hours ago, Bojun said:

I agree with everything you said especially the actor playing Runyu. But viewers should differentiate real from reel because hate the character but not the actor. Sadly many fans do not know how to differentiate. On a side note I never get tried rewatching episodes 60-63. 
 

Oh I love those last 10 eps or so after he becomes the demon king. Those were really paniful to watch. But it's a good kind of pain. Haha. It's difficult to turn around a situation like that. She literally killed him. By stabbing him in the back. Not even in the front. LOL. But still he couldn't let her go. He tries to hurt her in so many ways, but each time he is the one who gets hurt badly. Arghhh man, I want to rewatch this show now for the millionth time because of you. LOL. You revived all the beautiful memories of this show. 

[Bojun]

5 hours ago, kokodus said:

Oh I love those last 10 eps or so after he becomes the demon king. Those were really paniful to watch. But it's a good kind of pain. Haha. It's difficult to turn around a situation like that. She literally killed him. By stabbing him in the back. Not even in the front. LOL. But still he couldn't let her go. He tries to hurt her in so many ways, but each time he is the one who gets hurt badly. Arghhh man, I want to rewatch this show now for the millionth time because of you. LOL. You revived all the beautiful memories of this show. 

I could extend my must watch episodes from 58-63. 58 was when JinMi overheard Runyu and Suihe talking about the truth behind Xufeng’s resurrection. JinMi had a LOT of things to say and the word love was being thrown around in different context, all of them meaningful and some outright painful. It was among my favorite Yang Zi acting moments in the whole drama. 

[Bojun]

On 2/2/2020 at 3:53 AM, bluehibiscus said:

 

I loved Ashes of Love when it was airing, waiting eagerly for each new episode but I still find the premise of why JM could kill XF a bit flawed. I also didn’t enjoy the episodes that focus mostly on RY. I’ve since moved on to other dramas so the details are not as fresh in my memory anymore. Did you watch the behind-the-scene clips? They are really good though I’m not sure if there are Eng subs.

 

By the way, I’m not sure if you’ve realised it but clicking on the little heart in the corner of each post allows you to express your reaction to that particular post. This also helps to increase the points of the poster which can’t be redeemed for anything; they are purely for fun.

Same here. I know Runyu has been scheming for a long time but hard to believe almost the whole court at the time of the wedding was behind him.

JinMi stabbing Xufeng from behind and subsequently using her power to pull out the dagger from his heart was probably the most highlighted scene in the drama as it was shown no less than 5 or 6 times in subsequent episodes.

I have seen a few behind the scenes but sadly almost no English so could not understand them.

Yap i’ve noticed the heart thing and just gave you one. ❤️

[bluesytb]

On 2/1/2020 at 9:20 AM, bluehibiscus said:

 

What won many viewers over was Ye Hua’s deep love and utter devotion to Baiqian. Most of the time, he was trying to woo her and win her affections again by spending as much time with her as possible.

 

To me it felt very forceful and uncomfortable (and I have been assaulted at a very young age).   

 

Quote

There was one scene where he forcefully kissed her but things didn’t go further. Just to clarify, in the scene you described as rape, Baiqian did not actually say the word “no”. 

 

Forcefully kissed to me is assault.

 

To be fair, It's been some time since I've seen it.  But it left a very deep (& uncomfortable) impression on me.  See, even if she didn't say no, her being nervous & trying to escape = no

 

Sex is not a transaction & both parties should be eager & willing.    

 

Let's say you kinda like a guy - and you know he likes you since he keeps trying to get close to you and has forcibly kissed you at one point.  At one point you're in a bedroom and he says he wants you.  You are embarrassed and try to leave but he locks the door and removes your clothes.  How do you feel?

   

 

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She offered to repay him because he was doing her a big favour and said she would do her best to give him what he wanted. When he said he wanted her, she was embarrassed, asked him to treat it as she hadn’t said those words and tried to leave. That was when he closed the doors with his magic but when he carried her to the bed, she didn’t object, only said his name. When she tried to get up, he kissed her and she didn’t say “no” either. 

I understand that in real life, a verbal “no” is not necessary but this is fiction. Before that scene, Baiqian already revealed to her brother that she liked Ye Hua. She also affirmed to Ye Hua the affection was mutual after they did the act so I think most viewers don’t see it as rape. Another mitigating reason why Ye Hua didn’t want to wait anymore was

 

The thing is, the media we consume does affect us.  This doesn't mean you're going to shoot up a place because video games are violent, but it does mean you get accustomed to violence however.  & When it comes to violence against women (Which is an epidemic) media like this can reinforce very bad ideas, both to women & men.   i.e "Oh, I thought she wanted it"  And this isn't due to just one film/one drama, or one piece of media, this is due to a lifetime of misogynistic media.  Where women are often told we're to be dominated, weak, a trophy to be won, we're fickle or a thousand other stereotypes that run through media worldwide.  

 

When there are articles like this:

https://www.damemagazine.com/2017/10/24/men-are-killing-thousands-women-year-saying-no/

No, it's not just because of media, it's because of culture - but culture's narrative is shown through media.

 

Also, remember that you can be raped by people that you love - I think the law against raping your wife in the states came around in the 1980's (I'd have to look it up) - remember you're more likely to be raped by someone you know than some random stranger.

 

Oh it started in 1975, & then in 1993 

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/marital-rape-laws.html

  

 

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because he had decided to attempt something that was very dangerous on Baiqian’s behalf so she wouldn’t lose her life doing it so this was possibly his last chance with her.

However, we are all different so I respect that the drama didn’t work for you.

I mean, you're allowed to like whatever you like, but please remember that media is a microcosm of reality.  Just be aware of how stereotypes can be spread by media, from racist stereotypes to misogyny. 

 

If you want to look more into this subject,  here are some things to look at for a start: 

Make Believe Media - Michael Parenti

Media Shapes Values

Feminism & Media Shaping Our Perception

 

Pop Culture Detective :

 

Parenti : (starts @ 1:27) - about entertainment media

 

[bluesytb]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:29 PM, Bojun said:

Same here. I know Runyu has been scheming for a long time but hard to believe almost the whole court at the time of the wedding was behind him.

I think he had a lot of support because 1. the Empress is brutal & iirc made a lot of enemies (she genocided an entire realm & was also stockpiling food) & the emperor just lets her do her thing & doesn't do anything about it  2. He purposefully goes around and makes allies ( also remember the two that tried to kill XF at the beginning - the snake & rat - that was a political act, so from first ep we know there's dissent - along with Rat trying to recruit JM's father too) 

 

As For Jin Mi stabbing XF, 1. that's part of her character (remember she tried to kill SH when she finds out who really killed her father, & remember how she wants to avenge Rou Rou by attacking Qiong Qi)  2. RY keeps egging her on 3. The yundan pill is still there & (RY has fixed it) - so no love, 4. She sees the visions of her dead parents before she does anything

 

 

Quote

JinMi stabbing Xufeng from behind and subsequently using her power to pull out the dagger from his heart was probably the most highlighted scene in the drama as it was shown no less than 5 or 6 times in subsequent episodes.

I have seen a few behind the scenes but sadly almost no English so could not understand them.

Yap i’ve noticed the heart thing and just gave you one. ❤️

It was so heart wrenching!  It makes me cry every time. 

[bluehibiscus]

2 hours ago, bluesytb said:

 

To me it felt very forceful and uncomfortable (and I have been assaulted at a very young age).   

 

 

 

@bluesytb I’m truly sorry to hear you were a victim of sexual assault and no doubt the trauma from that will colour your reaction to any forced seduction scenes. It is justified for you to feel strongly averse to any such portrayal. Still, I believe there exists a place for an element of fantasy in the media, be it books, films or TV programs. Not everyone is incapable of making a distinction between fiction and reality even if we are wary of the disensitisation effect of too much exposure to such media. I am aware “saying no” doesn’t have to be verbal as I’ve mentioned and a husband can be found guilty of raping his wife if the act is non-consensual etc.

 

In China, they censor/ban wholesale certain things (eg sexually explicit scenes) from all forms of media because of its undesirable/corruptive effect. While I agree minors should not be exposed to these, how about adults? Where does the line end? In America, it is well-known that political correctness is pretty extreme compared to other countries especially when it comes to race but that does not seem to reduce the prevalence of racism. Is the solution as simple as simply disallowing/outlawing such portrayals? Anyway, this forum is not for the discussion of such issues so let’s leave it at that.

[bluehibiscus]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:04 PM, bluesytb said:

As For Jin Mi stabbing XF, 1. that's part of her character (remember she tried to kill SH when she finds out who really killed her father, & remember how she wants to avenge Rou Rou by attacking Qiong Qi)  2. RY keeps egging her on 3. The yundan pill is still there & (RY has fixed it) - so no love, 4. She sees the visions of her dead parents before she does anything

 

The premise in the book is flawed. She is not supposed to have any feelings because of the pill so she should not be too aggrieved by her father’s death. Yangzi explained that she interpreted the lack of feelings to be romantic love only. Otherwise her character would be very unlikeable.

[Bojun]

Just spent the last few days updating myself with a current kdrama but after watching the last available episode I re-watched the demon realm wedding scene and listened to the OST again. 

Not sure if this is the right part of the forum to ask this question because I’m comparing a scene between a k drama and a c drama. The back hug is the demon realm between JinMi and Xufeng was definitely one of the best and sweetest moment between the two. The dialogue and events leading to it was also emotional. In case anyone is also watching Crash Landing on You, how do you think does this compare to the back hug between Seri and Ri in episode 12?

[bluesytb]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:56 PM, bluehibiscus said:

 

@bluesytb 

 

In China, they censor/ban wholesale certain things (eg sexually explicit scenes) from all forms of media because of its undesirable/corruptive effect. While I agree minors should not be exposed to these, how about adults? Where does the line end? In America, it is well-known that political correctness is pretty extreme compared to other countries especially when it comes to race but that does not seem to reduce the prevalence of racism. Is the solution as simple as simply disallowing/outlawing such portrayals? Anyway, this forum is not for the discussion of such issues so let’s leave it at that.

 

All I will say about this is I totally agree with China on many topics, WRT censorship.  Free speech is frankly a joke, tbh.  You should not be allowed to be racist, or sexist or whatever, because those things are fascistic values & are detrimental to us as humans.  In America, "Political correctness" gets cried about since so many people want to be outright fascistic & will say that if anyone tells them it's bad to be racist/homophobic/sexist/w/e that that in itself is against free speech.  To me political correctness is honestly treating all with respect & compassion (unless undeserved i.e. bigots) We should strive for the best for each other as humans & hold ourselves to a higher standard.  & Yeah I do think there is a limit to political correctness, as when it's used in a neoliberal manner (as in to sell stuff or say, a sell a politician, or be used as a band-aid i.e. pinkwashing)

 

The racism doesn't come from free speech or lack thereof, it comes from centuries of racism beginning with the slaughter of Indigenous Peoples, The transatlantic slave trade & racist policies (both internally & abroad) that continue today, & a mis-educated public.  Yes, I agree telling people to just be politically correct in (any western country tbh) is just a band aid on a massive gash, so yeah there's a lot of work to be done.

 

I don't mind if there are imperfect portrayals, I'm not saying that everything has to be perfect, or that every piece of media has to be a certain way, but i'd like to see less and less portrayals of men forcing themselves on women being the "good guy", as there are so many pieces like that that it ends up shaping masculinity (and really, how women may react to similar scenes in RL, and possibly triggering survivors of domestic violence) & enforces status quo.

 

I'm not saying to ban all media like that, but all media should be examined on

1.what tropes are being used?

2.can this be harmful to a certain group of people? (i.e. women/other minorities)                

3.how do we do better?

4. what is this piece of media trying to say?

 

I have plenty of resources if anyone is interested.

(I like collecting information)

 

anyways, that's all I have to say in the matter  

Edited February 11, 2020 by bluesytb
adding additional thoughts

[J13]

On 2/7/2020 at 9:01 AM, Bojun said:

Just spent the last few days updating myself with a current kdrama but after watching the last available episode I re-watched the demon realm wedding scene and listened to the OST again. 

Not sure if this is the right part of the forum to ask this question because I’m comparing a scene between a k drama and a c drama. The back hug is the demon realm between JinMi and Xufeng was definitely one of the best and sweetest moment between the two. The dialogue and events leading to it was also emotional. In case anyone is also watching Crash Landing on You, how do you think does this compare to the back hug between Seri and Ri in episode 12?

Glad to see you’re enjoying AOL. It’s such an epic drama and one of my most favourite Cdramas. I’ve actually been rewatching to pass time while I wait for new episodes of CLOY.

 

I think the AOL back hug is more emotional and heart wrenchingly sweet because you can really feel the longing there. It’s a longer drama too so it’s hard not to feel the emotion when you’ve watched JM and XF’s relationship really develop and have seen all that they’ve been through together. There’s also more context behind that scene because of everything that’s happened between the two so when they finally reunite and XF finally accepts that he still loves JM, we can’t help but feel happy and relieved for them.

 

CLOY’s back hug was also incredibly sweet and romantic but it’s a different genre to AOL (which in my opinion AOL is more like an epic romance) so in my opinion, the emotions felt a little different to AOL. I think CLOY has done an amazing job at developing JH and SR’s relationship though given it’s only a 16 episode drama and HB and SYJ’s chemistry is so real and believable.

 

Overall both back hugs were incredibly romantic and suited the type of drama they were portraying.

[taekwang]

Is there a season 2 for this show ashes of love? 

[bluehibiscus]

5 hours ago, taekwang said:

Is there a season 2 for this show ashes of love? 

 

Word was they were considering or planning to do it but nothing has been confirmed. If they do it, it probably will be a new cast.