[Mainland Chinese Drama 2019] Heavenly Sword Dragon Slaying Saber 倚天屠龙记

[Don Yu]

 

[Don Yu]

[40somethingahjumma]

This adaptation certainly has the best looking girls in Wuji's travelling harem. They're all quite pretty and seem to be quite decent in the acting stakes. 

 

Yes, there's something of a harem. True that Wuji isn't necessarily in love with all of the ladies but are all in love with him in some fashion. I'm fascinated that the show has so overtly indicated that Wuji's infatuation with ZR and vice versa is largely based on wonderful childhood memories of mutual care. Sure they're both decent human beings and in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Of all the ladies in Er Mei, she shines brightly. Not surprisingly when they're dull "yes-shifu" drones. Of course Wuji gets himself into all kinds of trouble being ultra protective without any of the usual regards for male-female boundaries. But I forgive him mostly because he was raised on an island with three other people and then spent most of his teens in isolation trying to cure himself.

 

I really like young Joseph. He's doing really well with the character. He has an earnestness that rings of authenticity. His passion for justice and true righteousness is palpable when he delivers the lines. (Maybe that's the voice actor) Whenever he meddles or jumps into any kind of fray, he sounds like he really cares. To me, that's most of the battle won. The other thing about him is that he has really nice chemistry with all the girls. Also, he does well with the martial arts stuff although... I still think this show's martial arts is its weakest element. Now that they've toned down the slo-mo, it's even less spectacular than it was.

 

I've always been a Zhao Min fan. In almost every version that I've seen. I suppose in my mind she's sort of the Elizabeth Bennet of wuxia fiction. (I'm still not sure about the actress in the Alec Su version though) She certainly has many hallmarks of the typical rom com female lead. In the beginning the leads bicker incessantly and they both drive each other up the proverbial wall. (And in this case... the wall is real) She stands out because she is different from all the other girls. Like all the others she inevitably falls for Wuji but the fun part is that she doesn't fawn over him. It's as if she demands that he adjust to her personality. She's logical in a mischievous sort of way and it feels to me from the little bits that I've seen, that the actress has certainly got that part nailed down.

 

More spoilery/preview stuff

 

 

[dramagirlslove]

7 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

 

Can you provide me a link to it? I'll do my best.

Omg thank you so much. http://f.us.sinaimg.cn/004vPLmGlx07sflByPle01041200SXJU0E010.mp4?label=mp4_hd&template=852x480.20.0&Expires=1552566728&ssig=7mByYWnQO%2F&KID=unistore,video

[randomuser3000]

12 hours ago, caranita said:

 

Someone is subbing it here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuyfcUjDE--TshpquRKPFbLXr0mTBazWy. 

Thank you so much!

[caranita]

 

Watched up to ep 22 last night, and I'm loving it!

 

The choreography is well done, and I'm so grateful they've toned down the slow-mo because I enjoyed the fights a lot. I haven't read the original novel, but according to those who have this is the version which presents the Guang Ming Peak battle closest to the book.

 

Spoiler

ZWJ identity revelation is heartwarming, with all his Wudang uncles, and his maternal grandpa and  uncle surrounding him. The scene has been depicted in the previous versions, but since the 2019 version has extended time of little Wuji being taken care of the Wudang family, this becomes a very believable family reunion.

 

 

12 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

I really like young Joseph. He's doing really well with the character. He has an earnestness that rings of authenticity. His passion for justice and true righteousness is palpable when he delivers the lines. (Maybe that's the voice actor) Whenever he meddles or jumps into any kind of fray, he sounds like he really cares. To me, that's most of the battle won. The other thing about him is that he has really nice chemistry with all the girls. Also, he does well with the martial arts stuff although... I still think this show's martial arts is its weakest element. Now that they've toned down the slo-mo, it's even less spectacular than it was.

 

Yes, I'm liking Joseph Zeng's portrayal very much too! He has the right expressions and mannerism supporting ZWJ's lines (though perhaps it's the other way around, the voice actor has fantastic job supporting Joseph's acting LOL). 

 

I read on another forum that the viewership now reaches 1.5 billions -- additional 500 mios from the 2 episodes alone. The series seems to be well received, and I'm thinking the popularity of Yang Xiao also contributes to it. Yang Xiao's sarcastic comments made trending topic on weibo and generated tonnes of memes :))). Lin Yushen did a fantastic job!

 

[Yitian_fan]

Thanks for all the commentary here, been a passive reader but very excited about this HSDS!

 

@caranita, care to share the memes? I'm a Chinese language reader but do not type it well enough to surf weibo and other chinese language sites so happy to translate memes if someone posts them here!

 

@40somethingahjumma thanks for the (to me) spot-on comments around the side-characters and ZM.   Also how hot yangxiao and (to me) Joseph are!

 

@idliz- thanks for those ZWJ/ZM picts... soooo much love! Keep 'em coming!  ZWJ/ZM have always been my OTP, not just in HSDS but really in all of wuxia.  And though my approval for how the scripts portrays ZM over the other drama adaptations I've seen have varied (1970's, 1986, 1994, 2000, 2003, 2009) I've never been able to stop myself loving them together!

 

After all these years I _know_ the plot has tons of loopholes and both ZWJ and ZM's characters are seriously flawed (ZM has the typical Antagonist Tropes of having complicated plans with so much potential for failure, doing monologues about her plans instead of just killing 'em already, obsessing over the Protagonist etc.) but this show and ZM in particular are so darned fun I _want_ to turn off my brain and just enjoy!

 

[40somethingahjumma]

Heh. Zhang Wuji the Zen master interloper-meddler saves the day. And finally... his identity is revealed to the world!

 

The back and forth at Guang Ming Peak is one of my favourite bits from YTTLJ and it is done so very well here. The drama manages to capture the nuances and the Shakespearean aspects and it's to young Joseph's credit that he's able to pull it off unfazed by the acting veterans all around him and holding his own. He does a great job showing all of Wuji's qualities -- youthful, respectful and a truly talented pugilist to boot. A good choice IMO.  

 

I'd agree that the martial arts here was more than a step up in comparison to other moments and I suppose it was in large part to demonstrate Wuji's accumulated prowess. I don't know if it makes up for other occasions but it was a lot of fun watching one showdown after another.

 

The showdown was more than a test of martial arts. It was trial... not of the Ming sect (which the so-called righteous six sects were trying to summarily execute in unseemly haste)... but of the six sects that had come to "do justice". During his travels, Wuji had picked up titbits and was now able to use his knowledge to turn the tables on the executioners and prosecute them in front of wulin's largest audience. In a real enough way, the Ming sect are like a whipping boy for all the undercurrents in the martial arts community and their hidden sins. Of course they brought some of it on themselves with their internal issues but people aren't so black and white. 

 

The question of nobility also comes up. Not in the aristocratic sense obviously. As I've said on another occasion... who decides what righteousness and justice is. Might? Alliances? 

 

I don't dislike Zhiruo... especially this one, who is less of a caricature than the 2009 version and I suppose she's being portrayed here more as a victim of divided priorities than anything else. But her scene with Wuji at Guang Ming Peak is both highly symbolic and marks an crucial turning point for their subsequent encounters. The point that I see made is that childhood memories aren't sufficient to sustain whatever feelings they have for each other. Sure they have feelings... whatever they are... but Zhiruo has new obligations of which Wuji isn't a part of. In fact, he stands in opposition to everything Mijue holds true. It reminds me of Les Mis... just a tad. Mijue is Javier to Wuji's Valjean. The problem isn't that Mijue's unprincipled but that her principles are not tampered by compassion or an understanding of life's complexities. Debts have to paid and the debt collector has come to collect and must collect. That's more or less how she operates. It's how she justifies killing a beloved disciple. But it's not that different from parents who honour kill their own kids or regard them as dead for converting to a different faith.

Often life is a zero sum game but of course our nature is to try and have foot in each camp. It's not so easy though and at times requires a great of dishonesty to sustain.

 

@dramagirlslove Sorry, but I am forbidden to look at the link. Do you have an alternative place to go to?

 

@Yitian_fan Welcome to Soompi. Yes, I'm always a fan of YTTLJ too. I just love it and for some reason I'm not bothered by the travelling harem... which is odd for me.  Anyway, it's always clear to me who needs to be with WJ... someone who loves him and will balance out his nice boy personality.  I've sort of come round to Jing Yong's way of seeing things here.

[dramagirlslove]

12 minutes ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

Heh. Zhang Wuji the Zen master interloper-meddler saves the day. And finally... his identity is revealed to the world!

 

The back and forth at Guang Ming Peak is one of my favourite bits from YTTLJ and it is done so very well here. The drama manages to capture the nuances and the Shakespearean aspects and it's to young Joseph's credit that he's able to pull it off unfazed by the acting veterans all around him and holding his own. He does a great job showing all of Wuji's qualities -- the youthful, respectful and a truly talented pugilist to boot. A good choice IMO.  

 

I'd agree that the martial arts here was more than a step up in comparison to other moments and I suppose it was in large part to demonstrate Wuji's accumulated prowess. I don't know if it makes up for other occasions but it was a lot of fun watching one showdown after another.

 

The showdown was more than a test of martial arts. It was trial... not of the Ming sect (which the so-called righteous six sects were trying to summarily execute in haste)... but of the six sects that had come to "do justice". During his travels, Wuji had picked up titbits and was now able to use his knowledge to turn the tables on the executioners and prosecute them in front of wulin's largest audience. In a real enough way, the Ming sect are like a whipping boy for all the undercurrents in the martial arts community and their hidden sins. Of course they brought some of it on themselves with their internal issues but people aren't black and white. 

 

The question of nobility also comes up. Not in the aristocratic sense obviously. As I've said on another occasion... who decides what righteousness and justice is. Might? Alliances? 

 

I don't dislike Zhiruo... especially this one, who is less of a caricature than the 2009 version and I suppose she's being portrayed here more as a victim of divided priorities than anything else. But her scene with Wuji at Guang Ming Peak is both highly symbolic and marks an crucial turning point for their subsequent encounters. The point that I see made is that childhood memories aren't sufficient to sustain whatever feelings they have for each other. Sure they have feelings... whatever they are... but Zhiruo has new obligations of which Wuji isn't a part of. In fact, he stands in opposition to everything Mijue holds true. It reminds me of Les Mis... just a tad. Mijue is Javier to Wuji's Valjean. The problem isn't that Mijue's unprincipled but that her principles are not tampered by compassion or an understanding of life's complexities. Debts have to paid and the debt collector has come to collect and must collect. That's more or less how she operates. It's how she justifies killing a beloved disciple. But it's not that different from parents honour kill their own kids or regard them as dead for converting to a different faith.

Often life is a zero sum game but of course our nature is to try and have foot in each camp. It's not so easy though and at times requires a great of dishonesty to sustain.

 

@dramagirlslove Sorry, but I am forbidden to look at the link. Do you have an alternative place to go to?

 

@Yitian_fan Welcome to Soompi. Yes, I'm always a fan of YTTLJ too. I just love it and for some reason I'm not bothered by the travelling harem... which is odd for me.  Anyway, it's always clear to me who needs to be with WJ... someone who loves him and will balance out his nice boy personality.  I've sort of come round to Jing Yong's way of seeing things here.

this one should work. thanks again. life saver.

[40somethingahjumma]

 

A quick and rough translation: 

 

0:08  I imagine I must also be the chief demon in the eyes of the orthodox sects

0:12 Sect Leader Zhang doesn't like a chief demon girl like me, right?

0:16 Girls (or women) should know how to be restrained (or girls would be better off understanding restraint)

0:18 Even if I'm not restrained, you still like me anyway

 

0:22 In future, I'd like a family. Eventually a loved one/family member

 

0:33 Between the two of us, you can only choose one. If you walk out this door, don't (ever) come looking for me (again)

0:39 I request equal treatment. Don't forget, I'm a girl too.

0:48 I was foolish to have fallen in love with the wrong person

0:52 You've always been indecisive (of two minds)

0:57 Things (that happen) in this world are not as simple as you think

0:59 After a time you will know who is right ( or "who is who isn't")

 

1:02 The one who wronged you is me

1:05 So this shameless witch is your dearly beloved!

1:08 (Even if) I am a demoness that angers God and humanity, my methods are no match for that of the gentle Er Mei leader like you

1:16 You're spreading lies to deceive others! Today, I will kill you!

 

1:30 I really hope this moment will standstill forever so that I won't have to suffer pain and sorrow by hurting you

 

@dramagirlslove

[chipz03]

I agree that this version has the best tackling of the battle between Ming sect and the so-called 6 "righteous" sects at the Guangming Peak. Great fight scenes, and this version did good job of make those who were involved in the fights look messy

 

Spoiler

with blood splattered on their clothes and faces, as they should (many versions tend to make the characters looked too clean/polished) considering they  just fought intense battles before they reached GuangMing peak. 

 

 

 This version gave adequate attentions to the characters that have always been shafted to background, and the actors/actress were all highlighted with their own fight choreography. Characters from Kong Tong sect and the remaining tertiary characters, so to speak, were given spotlights. Very glad they also spend time to show Wudang uncles. 

Spoiler

I like that the Wudang disciples, when they individually fight the Bai Mei Yin Wang (Wuji's grandpa), they knew when to acknowledge their "defeat."

 

When 4th disciple fought, he can back down from the fight. BMYW was also hesitant and refused to hurt Mo Shenggu, even when he already got the 7th disciple on his claw. MSG also knew when to admit defeat, even Song Yuanqiao refused to continue fighting after Emei's Miejue kind of throw the baton to them.

 

 

As mentioned before, I love the attention this version continued to give on the bonds between Wuji and his Wudang's root

Spoiler

Agreed on the comments posted previously. I love the way the Wudang disciples were so excited to know it's Wuji. They even waited until Wuji awoke before they left Guangming peak. Small details but heartwarming.

 

Ever since the first time I watched HSDS, I cannot root for ZZR in all the versions I watched (warning: loooong post that might not sit well with ZZR fans. This is just my personal opinion and I am very sorry if this is offensive to anyone. It's not my intention whatsoever folks 

Spoiler

Among the four girls, I found ZZR to be the scariest of them. 

 

Behind the sweet exterior is someone who can go to such extreme to get what she want is frightening.  I always felt she's possessive. This even before Wuji become her fiance or her boyfriend (an example I think was in the island when they went to find his godfather and she killed YinLi and framed ZM).

 

When I was younger, my inability to root for ZZR was simply because she did the bad things (killing YL, framing ZM) in her attempts to fight for WJ. However, as I got older, I think my dislike (for lack of a better word) of this character is the hypocrisy of this character: she put on her "pitiful, good" person image in front of WJ and the world (kind of), basically willing to trick WJ just to get him even though deep inside I would think she knew that WJ actually love Zhao Min.

 

For me, It's not so much of love toward Wuji, but more of an obsession. In contrast to Ji Xiaofu who has felt true love with Yangxiao that she dared to go against Miejue order at the expense of her life and her reputation as disciple of good sect, I felt ZZR in unwilling to jeopardize her "reputation" in front of the rest of the "good" sect disciples, hence she decided to stab WJ since she "was forced by her shifu" anyway. She progressed to even be more than ready to hurt anyone who stand in her way, including hurting those who are Wuji's family (Yinli, Xiexun), but at the same time, blaming others for her "sufferings".

 

That is scarily obsessive, self-centered, and manipulative for me. She wanted too much, I guess, more than what she can get that at the end she  end up with nothing.

 

I Feel that she and Qingshu are similar: willing to do anything even using underhanded methods to get the person they love.  Without realizing,  the more they do it, the farther they push those person that they love away. 

 

As mentioned,   sometimes what we think is a perfect match made in heaven type of relationship might not be the one true love/relationship at all. After Ming and the 6 sects kind of came together to fight against the ruling dynasty, ZZR and ZWJ were basically at the same side.  Both were childhood friends,  both the leader or leading candidate to lead their sects. Their union would logically be what many considered perfect (additionally, he can be considered part of Wudang as well).  But alas, he fell for ZM, his enemy instead.  Like some said, a lot of time, love cannot be explained with logic.

 

A bit out of the topic. I remembered in the book Hong Lou Meng (Story of the Stones or Dream of the Red Chamber by Cao Xueqin), one character named Aunt Hsueh (if I remembered correctly) mentioned something along the lines that two people that are not destined to be together will never be together no matter how perfect their match seemed to be, just like the case of the two protagonists in this book who have spent their childhood together didn't end up together. 

 

I personally think,  even if ZM did not appear, I am inclined to think that WJ might still not truly love ZZR. I felt that the turning point was the fact that ZZR opted to stab him in front of the crowds instead of fighting for him. Since then, I would feel that any chances of real love between them is gone, with or without ZM. He still treats her kindly of course, because that's his nature (hence his softness and kindness toward Xiaozhao and Yinli too).

 

They might end up together if ZM is not in the picture but it will not be based on real love.

 

As also mentioned before, I like that this version put emphasis on the fact that WJ actually like the image of ZZR in his memory (i.e. childhood friend), not necessary the "now" ZZR. He always flashback to their childhood time together. 

 

I also agree that one interesting aspect about HSDS is that most characters are not that straightforward, meaning the good not necessarily good while the bad not necessarily bad. 

Spoiler

Example: like ZZR,  Yinli (or Zhu er) has a rough childhood.   She hated her father and vice versa (at least at the beginning), trained a kungfu that ruined her face, growing up without a stable environment, and burdened by her bitterness of being rejected by her crush young ZWJ (he even bit her . I would think that could be a huge blow to a young person's feeling who,  in her mind didn't mean to harm the other one but he seemed to be desperate to get away from her). But between ZZR from the "good" sect and Yinli from the "bad",  both with less than ideal childhoods and with their own struggles, it's Zhiruo who committed many cruelties just to get WJ. 

 

Quite some of the hurts and bad deeds done in the story are actually done by those in the "good" sects: Xiaofu's death,  Yinli's "death", Mo Shenggu's death, and to some extent Zhang Cuishan's and Yin Susu's deaths, or others in the quests for the formidable Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre. Most characters in this story are much more complicated than just a hero fighting for the righteousness. Make it more gray who is actually the bad or the good.

 

I got to say though, among all the girls,  I prefer ZM to be the one that ZWJ love the most,  and

 

Spoiler

I am glad the story also goes with this pairing.  She is with fault of course, but for me,  she complement WJ well. 

 

 

She is the opposite of WJ in many ways that can balance him: she is witty, can read people well,  and resourceful or even cunning when necessary while WJ is more straightforward and naive. Kind of like, she's the brain while he can be the brawn . In all the versions I watched, WJ actually trust her judgment (e.g. when they want to proof his innocence to his Wudang's uncles regarding Mo shenggu death).

 

 Plus,  ZM is a confident lady who can definitely hold her ground (my kind of empowered lady in wuxia series ). ZZR-WJ might be the case of first love, but ZM and WJ is an example of true and last love, and the latter is more meaningful in my opinion.

 

I like that ZM confident and witty without being too bratty or evil.  As mentioned before,  she  can easily rattle Wuji. I think among all the girls,  she's the one that, in many of their meetings so far, who always make Wuji so exasperated to the point that he issued many "warnings" of wanting to "hurt/kill" her . 

 

She knows what she wants and she goes for it, without resorting to extreme measure like killing her love rival,

 

She's on par with Wuji,  not just the "yes sir" type, and the fact that they can grow to love each other make their relationship even more meaningful and sweeter. I guess their love is the love that slowly grow against the odds and through thick and thin that might seem impossible (considering they started basically as two warring sides, filled with misunderstandings, and burdened by their duties and allegiances  to the two opposite sides--she to her dynasty, he to the oppositions). It is extremely hard for them to end up together, but they beat the odds .

 

My favorite character after ZM among the 4 ladies in this version is Yinli, followed by XZ. Good acting from the actress as well (love Yinli's voice).

Okay,  enough of my ramblings.

 

Sorry if this is too long,  or if this comes out bashing. 

No ill intention whatsoever please, and apologize for any mistakes or if any of this is offensive to anyone or any party . 

 

Peace all

 

 

 

 

[hamaji]

Tonight 

[Yitian_fan]

2 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

 

A quick and rough translation: 

 

1:30 I really hope this moment will standstill forever so that I won't have to suffer pain and sorrow by hurting you

 

 

O.

M.

G.

 

[Undignified squealing in the background]

 

This is amazing! Thank you @40somethingahjumma I fall for ZWJ/ZM every time!  Hook, line and sinker.

 

I love it that ZM is both incredibly antagonistic, brilliantly witty and yet also so girlish in some ways (her pretending to hold WJ's hand?? So cute!) 

 

Her courage and straight-forwardness, her confidence and her poise... gods, WJ stood no chance at all!

 

Only one little correction 40somethingahjumma, you liking ZM is not coming around to Jinyong's thinking at all. Jinyong in his post-face to his novel (at least the version I read) clearly wrote that he actually wanted WJ to end up with XiaoZhao (in his words, ZZR and ZM were too cunning for his tastes, XZ is much closer to his perfect female, but didn't manage to make the storyline go his way so he wrote an open ending). 

 

So, no, what we are in love with is a ZM who is a creation built on Jinyong's brilliance, but totally playing to modern sensibilities (i.e., the drama endings have nearly all, except for the 1970's one, had the ending that I MUCH prefer) and I'm totally good with that!

 

But yes, not at all a rant, but to say I CAN'T WAIT for tonight!

 

Mis-quoting West Side Story:

"Tonight, tonight, I'll see my love(s) tonight.
And for (them), stars will stop where they are.

Today the minutes seem like hours,
The hours go so slowly,
And still the sky is light

Oh moon, grow bright,
And make this endless day endless night!
Tonight!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[40somethingahjumma]

2 hours ago, Yitian_fan said:

 

Only one little correction 40somethingahjumma, you liking ZM is not coming around to Jinyong's thinking at all. Jinyong in his post-face to his novel (at least the version I read) clearly wrote that he actually wanted WJ to end up with XiaoZhao (in his words, ZZR and ZM were too cunning for his tastes, XZ is much closer to his perfect female, but didn't manage to make the storyline go his way so he wrote an open ending). 

 

So, no, what we are in love with is a ZM who is a creation built on Jinyong's brilliance, but totally playing to modern sensibilities (i.e., the drama endings have nearly all, except for the 1970's one, had the ending that I MUCH prefer) and I'm totally good with that!

 

 

 

Ah I see. Explains the ambiguity of 2009's ending. It goes to show that he's a good storyteller first. But no I didn't mean to say that I've only recently come to like ZM. I've always liked her even as a kid watching one of those HK versions... with not a great deal of recollection of them now. (Although I noticed that the stations have been posting them on YT)

What I meant was this good boy falls for bad girl trope that JY seems to enjoy reusing although I don't really think ZM was ever a "bad" girl. She was the enemy doing her best to undermine the enemy... just as you'd expect someone of her position to do

. She had the means and the opportunity... and the brains to pull it off. The incalculable damage she would have inflicted! Yes, yes she was ruthless but she was openly ruthless! So I guess you could say that WJ's greatest contribution to saving the Central Plains was to "make" her fall for him... not that he lifted a finger at all of course.  

But truth be told, he fell for her too... probably because she reminds him a great deal of Mum. LOL. Pretty, audacious and intelligent. History repeats itself apparently. 

 

Xiao Zhao is okay and she's cute with WJ... just not my idea of an interesting female lead.

 

3 hours ago, chipz03 said:

 

Ever since the first time I watched HSDS, I cannot root for ZZR in all the versions I watched (warning: loooong post that might not sit well with ZZR fans. This is just my personal opinion and I am very sorry if this is offensive to anyone. It's not my intention whatsoever folks 

  Reveal hidden contents

Among the four girls, I found ZZR to be the scariest of them. 

 

Behind the sweet exterior is someone who can go to such extreme to get what she want is frightening.  I always felt she's possessive. This even before Wuji become her fiance or her boyfriend (an example I think was in the island when they went to find his godfather and she killed YinLi and framed ZM).

 

When I was younger, my inability to root for ZZR was simply because she did the bad things (killing YL, framing ZM) in her attempts to fight for WJ. However, as I got older, I think my dislike (for lack of a better word) of this character is the hypocrisy of this character: she put on her "pitiful, good" person image in front of WJ and the world (kind of), basically willing to trick WJ just to get him even though deep inside I would think she knew that WJ actually love Zhao Min.

 

For me, It's not so much of love toward Wuji, but more of an obsession. In contrast to Ji Xiaofu who has felt true love with Yangxiao that she dared to go against Miejue order at the expense of her life and her reputation as disciple of good sect, I felt ZZR in unwilling to jeopardize her "reputation" in front of the rest of the "good" sect disciples, hence she decided to stab WJ since she "was forced by her shifu" anyway. She progressed to even be more than ready to hurt anyone who stand in her way, including hurting those who are Wuji's family (Yinli, Xiexun), but at the same time, blaming others for her "sufferings".

 

That is scarily obsessive, self-centered, and manipulative for me. She wanted too much, I guess, more than what she can get that at the end she  end up with nothing.

 

I Feel that she and Qingshu are similar: willing to do anything even using underhanded methods to get the person they love.  Without realizing,  the more they do it, the farther they push those person that they love away. 

 

As mentioned,   sometimes what we think is a perfect match made in heaven type of relationship might not be the one true love/relationship at all. After Ming and the 6 sects kind of came together to fight against the ruling dynasty, ZZR and ZWJ were basically at the same side.  Both were childhood friends,  both the leader or leading candidate to lead their sects. Their union would logically be what many considered perfect (additionally, he can be considered part of Wudang as well).  But alas, he fell for ZM, his enemy instead.  Like some said, a lot of time, love cannot be explained with logic.

 

A bit out of the topic. I remembered in the book Hong Lou Meng (Story of the Stones or Dream of the Red Chamber by Cao Xueqin), one character named Aunt Hsueh (if I remembered correctly) mentioned something along the lines that two people that are not destined to be together will never be together no matter how perfect their match seemed to be, just like the case of the two protagonists in this book who have spent their childhood together didn't end up together. 

 

I personally think,  even if ZM did not appear, I am inclined to think that WJ might still not truly love ZZR. I felt that the turning point was the fact that ZZR opted to stab him in front of the crowds instead of fighting for him. Since then, I would feel that any chances of real love between them is gone, with or without ZM. He still treats her kindly of course, because that's his nature (hence his softness and kindness toward Xiaozhao and Yinli too).

 

They might end up together if ZM is not in the picture but it will not be based on real love.

 

As also mentioned before, I like that this version put emphasis on the fact that WJ actually like the image of ZZR in his memory (i.e. childhood friend), not necessary the "now" ZZR. He always flashback to their childhood time together. 

 

I also agree that one interesting aspect about HSDS is that most characters are not that straightforward, meaning the good not necessarily good while the bad not necessarily bad. 

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Example: like ZZR,  Yinli (or Zhu er) has a rough childhood.   She hated her father and vice versa (at least at the beginning), trained a kungfu that ruined her face, growing up without a stable environment, and burdened by her bitterness of being rejected by her crush young ZWJ (he even bit her . I would think that could be a huge blow to a young person's feeling who,  in her mind didn't mean to harm the other one but he seemed to be desperate to get away from her). But between ZZR from the "good" sect and Yinli from the "bad",  both with less than ideal childhoods and with their own struggles, it's Zhiruo who committed many cruelties just to get WJ. 

 

Quite some of the hurts and bad deeds done in the story are actually done by those in the "good" sects: Xiaofu's death,  Yinli's "death", Mo Shenggu's death, and to some extent Zhang Cuishan's and Yin Susu's deaths, or others in the quests for the formidable Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre. Most characters in this story are much more complicated than just a hero fighting for the righteousness. Make it more gray who is actually the bad or the good.

 

I got to say though, among all the girls,  I prefer ZM to be the one that ZWJ love the most,  and

 

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I am glad the story also goes with this pairing.  She is with fault of course, but for me,  she complement WJ well. 

 

 

She is the opposite of WJ in many ways that can balance him: she is witty, can read people well,  and resourceful or even cunning when necessary while WJ is more straightforward and naive. Kind of like, she's the brain while he can be the brawn . In all the versions I watched, WJ actually trust her judgment (e.g. when they want to proof his innocence to his Wudang's uncles regarding Mo shenggu death).

 

 Plus,  ZM is a confident lady who can definitely hold her ground (my kind of empowered lady in wuxia series ). ZZR-WJ might be the case of first love, but ZM and WJ is an example of true and last love, and the latter is more meaningful in my opinion.

 

I like that ZM confident and witty without being too bratty or evil.  As mentioned before,  she  can easily rattle Wuji. I think among all the girls,  she's the one that, in many of their meetings so far, who always make Wuji so exasperated to the point that he issued many "warnings" of wanting to "hurt/kill" her . 

 

She knows what she wants and she goes for it, without resorting to extreme measure like killing her love rival,

 

She's on par with Wuji,  not just the "yes sir" type, and the fact that they can grow to love each other make their relationship even more meaningful and sweeter. I guess their love is the love that slowly grow against the odds and through thick and thin that might seem impossible (considering they started basically as two warring sides, filled with misunderstandings, and burdened by their duties and allegiances  to the two opposite sides--she to her dynasty, he to the oppositions). It is extremely hard for them to end up together, but they beat the odds .

 

My favorite character after ZM among the 4 ladies in this version is Yinli, followed by XZ. Good acting from the actress as well (love Yinli's voice).

Okay,  enough of my ramblings.

 

Sorry if this is too long,  or if this comes out bashing. 

No ill intention whatsoever please, and apologize for any mistakes or if any of this is offensive to anyone or any party . 

 

Peace all

 

 

 

 

I don't think you should need to apologize for having opinions... especially about fictional characters. If someone doesn't like what you say, they can always disagree nicely.  If they're actually offended... which I doubt anyone here would be... this is a good opportunity for them to learn to suck it up and make their own case for having a contrary opinion.

 

I find your take on ZR really interesting and although I mightn't necessarily go along with the obsession angle, I think there definitely disturbing elements that emerge in her personality later on. I'm not even sure if she's in love with WJ or like Zhu'er, she's more in love with the boy version of WJ who made and exchanged vows with her as a child. So much has happened to both of them in the intervening years to put them on different trajectories. I've always thought that she has an idealised picture of WJ but no real understanding of how he thinks. She should have had an inkling at Guang Ming Peak but she was too starry-eyed still. I don't think she ever understood his heart the way ZM did. Plus she wanted him to change for her... not the other way around.

 

Yeah, the better girl wins!

[Yitian_fan]

@chipz03 I'm with you on ZZR caring way too much about what people think. It's her constant need for approval and affirmation from her teacher and the rest of wulin that drives her to do things against what she knows somewhere deep down is right.

 

Maybe it's not her fault... growing up an orphan must do something to your psyche.  And ZM grew up a princess.. she KNEW she didn't need anyone's approval (well ok, almost anyone's). :)

 

When she just blandly looked on as the righteous sects beat Eagle king half to death and kicked him while he was injured I just a little annoyed.  Why isn't she at least moved? Too afraid to show it?

 

 

[randomuser3000]

4 hours ago, Yitian_fan said:

When she just blandly looked on as the righteous sects beat Eagle king half to death and kicked him while he was injured I just a little annoyed.  Why isn't she at least moved? Too afraid to show it?

 

 

 

She's just affected by the mob mentality in that instance.  She grew up in Emei following orders and conforming with the rest of the disciples.  So of course she can't think for herself. 

 

[Yitian_fan]

3 hours ago, randomuser3000 said:

 

She's just affected by the mob mentality in that instance.  She grew up in Emei following orders and conforming with the rest of the disciples.  So of course she can't think for herself. 

 

 

Good point, totally understood, and it's not as if any of them have not killed people given this is wuxia and they're puglists.  Still frustrating to watch I admit I was a little teary when Eagle King got

Spoiler

rammed by the pillar, reminded me of the next time he really pushes himself to the edge at Shaolin and the ending there for him.

 

I love the GMD fights a great deal- they've always been a HSDS highlight for me, and technology keeps making it better so I'd go as far as to say this is my favorite GMD action to date!   I actually watched this at regular speed to savor the fights although I watch nearly all video media speeded up.

 

[dramagirlslove]

I really like this version of Zhao Min. She's super funny and playful. Zhang Wuji's reaction to her personality is so entertaining to me. Her putting her hand on his chest in the dudgeon and pretending to hold his hand in the preview. It's really quite a switch from when she can really be ruthless and then suddenly becomes playful. She disarms Zhang Wuji easily with her words and confidence. So far, I'm enjoying the show. It's starting to pick up for me. 

[graceeedwardmom]

Hi everyone. I'm so glad to meet fans of this drama. Finally read everyone's thoughts and i also join ZM team.

For me, ZZR is just like your first love simple, pretty pure girl persona who everyone has  crushed on. But ZM is the glamorous and tempting type that ZWJ need. I think the actors for this series are quite impressive given they are relatively new. My favorite HSDS so far is 1986 but this one come close in second. Who knows through the end it will surpass the 1986 version.

 

Love the new Yang Xiao also. He's so charming and a fine gentleman here. I love how modern his mindset for this era. That's why JXF got so enchanted by him. Despite the book describe him as rapists but i would like to think him as kind of 'modern' man trapped in HSDS era. He just has free lifestyle as man and woman can live together without having proper wedding ceremony so the people misunderstood him as womanizer. For YX, if the feelings are gone people are free to leave the relationship. So that we can understand why he approve his daughter choice to be with YLT later in the drama.

[Yitian_fan]

23 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

Yeah, the better girl wins! 

 

I want to believe...

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and indeed the Baidu summary indicates he leaves with ZM in the end. However, there is some question about whether he remains undecided if it is ZM only that he loves. Yikes!