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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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4 minutes ago, Maria Brimstone said:

What's wrong with the little brother of the Empress/Emperor. The dude standing there by the palace wheat field lol. What's up with his misery

If I remember correctly he was being forced to marry someone. I might be wrong but i think i heard that in the ep when GTY was heading back to the capital after fighting the war. he was talking to the emperor's son about how the emperor was arranging marriage for someone.

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5 minutes ago, Maria Brimstone said:

What's wrong with the little brother of the Empress/Emperor. The dude standing there by the palace wheat field lol. What's up with his misery

 

Gotta give credit to Rulan for saving her maid though! 

He was the uncle GTY and wmperor's son were talking about His wife had died in the rebellion saving the empress but he has been asked to remarry by the new emperor. He is unhappy about it.

 

I love Rulan for doing that.Wish QH could do the same earlier.

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You guys are quick with the episodes! Viki is only up to 38 and there's not even an episode today!! :tears:

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3 hours ago, Suzzy San said:

Regarding QH's matter, I think ML's dialogue after leaving Dr He's family when they were pitting the Cao cousin while telling ML to make ways for her, explains how QH's matter can be viewed, she said and I quote 

'

' I'm just mad, I'm getting mader the more I think about it

What? Just because I'm not as pitiful as her, I have to yeild? 

In this world, is it that whoever is more pitiful, he is more reasonable? '

That's one part that explains that no matter the situation, some people might be having it harder too but they are all just trying hard not to be the pitiful one while still holding onto their morals. So in this aspect, QH's pitiness is no reason for him to raised above GTY because, he is just as pitiful as QH.. 

 

Another dialogue after that explains how ML is now scared of promises, that when Grandma said Dr He still promised not to take Cao cousin as concubine, minglan said

'made a promise? Will that work? 

How many people can really fulfill their promises

As long as his mother begs him, Brother Hong(Dr. He) has a soft heart

He won't really watch as his mother dies from anger' 

So I think this also explains that GTY not promising her anything or telling her about his plans, was not the best thing, but it was what ML truly needed. So I think we shouldn't view GTY as the main lead then but as another prospective man wanting to marry a girl. As such, he just seem to understand the consequences better than her other suitor. And like grandma said 

'We'll go and look at other people' I.e look for other suitor for ML, and fortunately her other one became someone she has understood and share some of her feelings with even though she might have not loved him fully. 

But was Dr. He someone she loves, No, but if something has not happened, she would have married him. So I think in this Era understanding and respect and unity is the main goal of marriage for them.. Love is meant to come after marriage 

Very well commented. Such insights. Thank you.

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Spoiler
47 minutes ago, Suzzy San said:

Oh my bad that's true.. She was like she doesn't really give a damn, she will marry him.. So when xiotao was saying that if Rulan's news with wen goes out the He family might not marry her, so she now said, well they can do whatever, she is really not that interested in marriage.. 

And sadly, what she seeks from marriage is what GTY seeks, they just want tolerance, understanding, and respect,.... Love can go somewhere else, 

Until later when they realize that love is actually the bond that can make them go a long way together... If one of them was after love in marriage, they actually might have just been like normal couple who is in love, always forgiving to those that annoys them and might break up early. 

But they have the 3 things needed in marriage, peace, understanding, and respect but they sure can't do without the 4th which is love.. So I think their marriage life is just to show how how they unconsciously found the love that was missing between them. So excited to see their fall out and their comeback. Hahahha

 

I felt she's already a realist to start with, and the experience with QH was not pleasant. That's why I mentioned earlier I think QH did more damage to ML than she's showing. 

But I feel GTY does love ML tho. The way he looks at her and all. 

So I'm guessing that's why the fall out. She's too guarded with her emotions. 

I do feel she admires him, respects him, and likes him a lot, but I'm not sure she loves him. Because she doesn't seem to allow it. Protecting herself from more hurt. 

 

Spoiler
12 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

Falling in love has made Rulan mature.The contrasting thoughts on ML and Rulan's  towards love was interesting.

ML being practical belived in moving forward.Practicality scores over sentimentality for her while Rulan is the opposite.

Would their thoughts remain the same till the end of the drama or it would change? I am curious about it.

 

Pretty sure she will learn to love her husband..

She just need a lot of assurance I think. 

It was really sad when she told grandma she's happy, and she's afraid because he's too nice to her...that the happiness is something she's not fated to have....

So it will be how to soften her heart again so that she learns to love...I think...

All my speculation lol. 

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1 hour ago, Suzzy San said:

I'm here to make some resolutions, I don't know how many will agree with me, I've been thinking... Even though truly ML is putting up some defense against her feelings of true love, but somehow she has unconsciously become cold at heart even though she still has compassion for humans. 

I will back this up with two dialouges. 

1.when grandma told her that they have decided not to marry but to adopt Cao cousin as a sister in He family, and grandma was like it's her fault that she is not getting a good match. ML said that He and her doesn't really love each other so she can't really cry for him and they only thing they have is compassion. And grandma was like at a young age how could you have a 'palm tree heart'. That is a cold heart and she said, that's not true. (ep 38)

2. Another one was with Rulan in ep 38 when minglan asked her that she can just forgets the wen scholar, Rulan asked her that if she was able to be with Yanrou after what happened won't she accept it, minglan says 'if I am able to have him, just forget it' judging by ML attitude, this might have been something she just said to not allow Rulan into her personal life too much, but her feelings then didn't even feel stiired by the thought of being with Yanrou. And after Rulan explains the feelings of love to her that the one one loves has to be the one we be with, ML replied with 'I don't understand, I believe we must keep looking forward in life'.. 

However, even though she has not really truly lived someone because the defense she puts against her will Ness is just too much, the high compassion she felt for QH made her she'd tears while returning his gift, those tears were the full closure on her feelings for anyone and also a confirmation to her fears that no one can be relied on.. 

I am so looking forward to how t both GTY and ML will break their defense, because as ML uses her blank face for her defense, GTY uses his laughter as his defense 

 

Spoiler

Your feelings are spot on. ML has never forgot her mother's last words "Try to survive.". During her life, she has remained a level-headed girl, never letting her emotions run wild. It doesn't mean she is cold-hearted, it's just staying alive is her first priority and romantic love is something too luxury and fragile to have or rely on. In the book, after they have their first son, GTY feels ML still hasn't really opened her heart to him and later ML makes a moving confession that she only truly loves herself and she has been selfish all along. They both cry and the barrier between them is finally lifted.

 

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6 minutes ago, 3ekl3514 said:

Hi does anyone know which chapter from the novel ML and GTY got married?

Chapter 102.

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1 hour ago, m0us3y said:

You guys are quick with the episodes! Viki is only up to 38 and there's not even an episode today!! :tears:

YouTube has up to ep 40 raw, but that's the TV version I think. I just watch all versions to get the whole story. And rewatch on Viki when translated.

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58 minutes ago, m0us3y said:
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I felt she's already a realist to start with, and the experience with QH was not pleasant. That's why I mentioned earlier I think QH did more damage to ML than she's showing. 

But I feel GTY does love ML tho. The way he looks at her and all. 

So I'm guessing that's why the fall out. She's too guarded with her emotions. 

I do feel she admires him, respects him, and likes him a lot, but I'm not sure she loves him. Because she doesn't seem to allow it. Protecting herself from more hurt. 

 

  Hide contents

 

Pretty sure she will learn to love her husband..

She just need a lot of assurance I think. 

It was really sad when she told grandma she's happy, and she's afraid because he's too nice to her...that the happiness is something she's not fated to have....

So it will be how to soften her heart again so that she learns to love...I think...

All my speculation lol. 

I agree with you, they love each other so much but their defense Is too big making them think it's admiration they have for each other.. Their small actions and generousity explains their love towards each other. But they are thinking it's administration. I think in this drama, I want to believe that saying the word love is very important so as to show that they have finally let down the wall against their feelings.. I'm so excited for the coming struggle 

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55 minutes ago, matrim said:

 

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Your feelings are spot on. ML has never forgot her mother's last words "Try to survive.". During her life, she has remained a level-headed girl, never letting her emotions run wild. It doesn't mean she is cold-hearted, it's just staying alive is her first priority and romantic love is something too luxury and fragile to have or rely on. In the book, after they have their first son, GTY feels ML still hasn't really opened her heart to him and later ML makes a moving confession that she only truly loves herself and she has been selfish all along. They both cry and the barrier between them is finally lifted.

 

That explains it then but I somehow admiring her for considering her life so important.. It's hard to love yourself more than anything because we all want to show the world that we are a good person and pure as such we all fail to realize the importance of our life.. It's just that, no matter how trivial love is, it's something very important that must be felt.. So I am glad they both cried and broke the barrier.. Hope it happens like that in the drama.. One thing is, they must cry it out no matter how they want to make the resolution scene to be.. They must cry please write 

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@m0us3y @zenya22

I think @tomo74 @linhlinh111 and I are just trying point out that QH doesn't know GTY's intentions and feelings for ML for people who are saying QH has no right to go talk to GTY, no right to ask him to back off and no right to be mad at him. Our discussions have never been about the effects on ML's life by QH's action or non-actions. We also never said QH deserves to be with ML as well as he was so pitiful. We're just trying to point out NOT to view QH from viewer perspective who knows more about GTY and ML encounters and GTY's actions and feelings than QH.  

 

I did not mean that GTY created events/ things to prevent QH to propose to ML or to be together with ML. All I said was GTY lied to QH that he didn’t know QH’s plan to propose ML again and he also calculated/ considered what QH will do in every steps even when he offered his help to QH as GTY is very good at accessing characters and personalities.  I also did not say QH will get ML if GTY was not there. All I said was for QH, his timing, his focus and his circumstances were all wrong even for his second try. I also did not believe everything QH did was right but said it is understandable given his personality, situation, background and circumstances. I never thought that QH and ML should be together since their personalities are very different and ML never gives priority to love anyways.

 

@zenya22 on a side note, GTY was not penniless when he was roaming around investigating about his son whereabouts. He has income from salt farms and stores he inherited from his grandfather. He was just living fugal as he was traveling most of the time. 

 

Spoiler

I just do not think it is fair to call QH bad, selfish and inconsiderate just because we’re looking from ML’s perspectives and on ML’s behalf, similar to it is not fair to call GTY bad, selfish, inconsiderate and cunning for having out-of-wedlock children, scheming, and being not filial to his father without being in his shoes. GTY was inconsiderate to Yanran when he tried to propose marriage to her by hiding the fact that he has two children from outside woman though he was considerate to ML. 

 

I just thinks that GTY shouldn’t blame QH for not taking his help regards to Yong Wang and taking himself credit by saying “I tried to fulfill you guys’ wish to be together but it was you who didn’t take my help” as his plan wasn’t guaranteed success given the circumstances at that time (Yong Wang being potential successor) and debatable whether he was really sincere with his so called help. On the other hand, QH shouldn’t blame GTY for getting ML (which he did not after he realized that GTY had eyes on ML). 

 

Spoiler

You should watch and listen epi 40 conversations in details. He admitted to ML that he was determined to marry her since he rescued her from river. When I was watching GTY's second rescue of ML from bandits during first old Madam funeral procession, I thought it was another chance encounter. After hearing his confession to ML, I just realized that GTY joined army but specific one camped near You Yan instead of joining war front to get more achievements (ML even mentioned that), he basically followed ML there.

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Me_iDee said:

YouTube has up to ep 40 raw, but that's the TV version I think. I just watch all versions to get the whole story. And rewatch on Viki when translated.

For those looking for the RAW eps before they come out on Viki: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAqDX_XjLlvhjY0eDqHpVQw this channel has them but all TV version. 

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3 hours ago, m0us3y said:

Regarding QH vs GTY, I feel there are 2 things in discussion here. QH and GTY's character and personality, and the relationship with ML. They are separate, yet intertwined. That complicated the situation. Add in bias by each of us, we get all the differences in opinions, from our own perspectives. 

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of QH, but I think I can see where @Golden Flower and @tomo74 are both coming from...

 

@Arieslazarel summed it up quite nicely. 

As a person, if we look at their characters independently of the consequences of their action, and circumstances, QH as a person, is better. He's filial, kind, honest, rich, honourable, loyal. 

GTY is cunning, a bit of a rascal/scoundrel, manipulative, but responsible, and not that bad a person, but compared to QH, is much more of a flawed character. 

 

But the reason I am so against QH, and cheered for GTY is probably because their personalities and characters are shown in their actions and as a direct result, impacting their relationship with ML. 

That despite his best efforts, all the sufferings, QH's actions hurt ML. And I personally felt that ML had to pay for the heavy price for QH's actions, which I didn't like. 

He loves ML, and he believes ML loves him too, so naturally, they should be together. That's his math. 

But in it all, he has never tried to stand in her shoes, to understand her, to see from her perspectives, or see how much pain and humiliation he caused her, intentional or not. 

 

And while GTY lied to multiple people, manipulated some, scam others, there's one thing he didn't do- hurt ML. 

Every step that he made, he considered the impact it might have on ML and her reputation first. 

If GTY really confessed that he likes ML since the water bandit incident and wanted to make her his wife since (clearly I haven't watch), I wouldn't disagree that he may not have been sincere in helping QH, but rather testing him and wanting to see how far QH would go for ML. 

But I personally didnt feel that GTY was trying to discourage ML with the Emperor Ming/ Yang Gui Fei comparison as I felt he was being honest about their situation to her then. 

Every interaction GTY had with ML, the conversation felt sincere, advice given with best interest of the other at heart. 

Some were saying that GTY should have told ML his plan and get her agreement to her hand of marriage. With a 21st century lens, I'd agree. 

But I could see why he wouldn't do it. Because if she did agree, and he failed, he would end up hurting her, giving her hopes and not deliver. 

As much as his plan was fail proof, as ML said in recent episode "human plan, God decides"..

In his case, heaven was on his side.

 

If we look at only characteristics of them, QH is definitely more ideal. If we only look at the intentions, the means but not the end, QH has been more upright as a person. But if we look at the end, all he ever did was damage to ML. 

And while some of GTY actions were shady, his actions rouge, his end game was getting ML, without hurting her if he fails. 

Im not saying that the end justifies the means, but I am saying that the characteristics of a person drives their actions, and those actions have consequences. And they all matter. 

 

 

I find these discussions of QH and GTY very interesting as I find that from an ethical standpoint, while both characters adhere to Confucianism, from a western perspective, this character discussion seems to be between a person who bases his decisions on the consequences that follow (GTY) and a person whose actions are based on a set of principles that guide his life (QH) which is very much a deontological perspective.

QH's entire life is based on the virtues of Confucianism - he bases his actions on a set of principles; indeed, through the capital, anyone looking to him would be unable to deny that he is a morally good man. How then, does he end up losing ML? 

The issue here is that almost every other character in the ensemble cast, with the exception of Rulan (bless her soul <3), is a consequentialist at heart - and GTY takes that to the extreme, as can be seen in episode 38 when he reveals his machinations to ML.

I do not mean to say that GTY is not a morally upright man. It's just than, rather than basing his actions on a set of virtues, he has learnt, just like ML, that actions have far reaching consequences - and that to achieve certain ends, he needs to put specific plans in motion.

 

GTY still has a bottom line, a moral code he stands by - he draws a line before committing actions that would harm people. In many ways he get what he wants but does it in such a way that he pacified the Sheng family and also got the He family out of the way.

At first glance, one may dismiss GTY as scheming and manipulative - however, his individual actions brought perhaps the greatest degree of good to everyone involved as he paid careful attention to both short term and long term consequences. This, in my view, is Utilitarianism in action.

On the other hand, QH seems to almost live his life in a bubble, adhering to his principles but being blind to the consequences therein - he is incredibly obtuse when it comes to the power imbalances in play for ML and the context her decisions are often based on. This is not to say that deontological ethics are weak, not at all. But they rely on logical consistency and a strong understanding on how tone's principles apply to the world we live in.

 

My issue was that while I could tell QH loved ML and his parents and didn't want either of them hurt, he was entirely vulnerable to the political machinations of not only the princess et al but also his mother. He doesn't know how to apply his principles to controversial and complex issues at hand.

What is worse is that up until episode 38, QH waited for positive exam results before having his mother broach the topic of marriage to ML, despite losing her once already. He did not learn from recent events. From a deontological perspective, he should have at least reflected on his actions and those of others and applied the virtues of Confucianism to them to better understand how to live his life and not be a pawn to others. In this, he fails miserably and is but a leaf on the wind.

To that end I believe the present GTY has a stronger grasp of ethics as he has developed a strong perspective of how the world works and he bases his decisions on a well defined moral code. The code may not necessarily be ones we ourselves would adhere to (indeed, I see myself reflected mostly in RL, which is hillarious) but something we can at least acknowledge and respect.

 

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@Golden Flower I agree with your line of thoughts. :)

On episode 40, I'd love to watch too but it's not subbed yet...:(. Having said that, I am not at all surprised that after the river bandit encounter, the following 2 encounters were not by chance. After their talk that night when ML asked GTY to consider his future and Rong'er, we could see he sees her differently. 

I just wasn't sure if it's love, or just wanting to protect her. I was convinced he was stalking her since. Everytime she runs into trouble, he's there to help. :D

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4 minutes ago, gossymer said:

 

I find these discussions of QH and GTY very interesting as I find that from an ethical standpoint, while both characters adhere to Confucianism, from a western perspective, this character discussion seems to be between a person who bases his decisions on the consequences that follow (GTY) and a person whose actions are based on a set of principles that guide his life (QH) which is very much a deontological perspective.

QH's entire life is based on the virtues of Confucianism - he bases his actions on a set of principles; indeed, through the capital, anyone looking to him would be unable to deny that he is a morally good man. How then, does he end up losing ML? 

The issue here is that almost every other character in the ensemble cast, with the exception of Rulan (bless her soul <3), is a consequentialist at heart - and GTY takes that to the extreme, as can be seen in episode 38 when he reveals his machinations to ML.

I do not mean to say that GTY is not a morally upright man. It's just than, rather than basing his actions on a set of virtues, he has learnt, just like ML, that actions have far reaching consequences - and that to achieve certain ends, he needs to put specific plans in motion.

 

GTY still has a bottom line, a moral code he stands by - he draws a line before committing actions that would harm people. In many ways he get what he wants but does it in such a way that he pacified the Sheng family and also got the He family out of the way.

At first glance, one may dismiss GTY as scheming and manipulative - however, his individual actions brought perhaps the greatest degree of good to everyone involved as he paid careful attention to both short term and long term consequences. This, in my view, is Utilitarianism in action.

On the other hand, QH seems to almost live his life in a bubble, adhering to his principles but being blind to the consequences therein - he is incredibly obtuse when it comes to the power imbalances in play for ML and the context her decisions are often based on. This is not to say that deontological ethics are weak, not at all. But they rely on logical consistency and a strong understanding on how tone's principles apply to the world we live in.

 

My issue was that while I could tell QH loved ML and his parents and didn't want either of them hurt, he was entirely vulnerable to the political machinations of not only the princess et al but also his mother. He doesn't know how to apply his principles to controversial and complex issues at hand.

What is worse is that up until episode 38, QH waited for positive exam results before having his mother broach the topic of marriage to ML, despite losing her once already. He did not learn from recent events. From a deontological perspective, he should have at least reflected on his actions and those of others and applied the virtues of Confucianism to them to better understand how to live his life and not be a pawn to others. In this, he fails miserably and is but a leaf on the wind.

To that end I believe the present GTY has a stronger grasp of ethics as he has developed a strong perspective of how the world works and he bases his decisions on a well defined moral code. The code may not necessarily be ones we ourselves would adhere to (indeed, I see myself reflected mostly in RL, which is hillarious) but something we can at least acknowledge and respect.

 

I couldn't agree more with you and I think you have explained these two characters well.. Qe know QH and we know he lives by his principles, not thinking about consequences and not moving from his thoughts, and we know GTY too, always planning for failure and success and he thinks about everything in his plans, everything, even the littlest thing as to checking if the wen scholar is actually good for Rulan, which he said if not, he would have thrown him away just like how the He family were eventually thrown away from ML's plan.. He knows what's best and he adheres to the safer side of his plan. If you notice, his plans are always very pleasing and straightforward like a scholar plan even though he is a military man that could just start killing anyone in his way..he is a very compassionate and soft man actually and very childish and funny.. Life just play game with us and we see ourselves trying to win the game, as such... We also start to plan in life and keep the ball game rolling.. Hahah

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11 hours ago, linhlinh111 said:

That was I was trying to say. There is no guarantee ML would chose him. If she doesn't want to marry him then it is wrong to force her. Whichever era it is, this is still true. He has no rights to decide what's best for her. His plan was not about her, it was about him getting her. He didn't put her first, he was putting himself first. Had he ever counted in her feelings and her choice (and also her Grandma's)? No, he wanted her, so he just had to have her.

 

I'm not against underhand tactics. I understand that scheming is necessary at some point, but it doesn't mean that it is right. ML is a scheming, manipulative woman, but she understands this, while GTY doesn't. ML actually feels guilty and sad when she has to use people to achieve her goals. I just wanna show anyone who support his method that, if he was okay with being manipulative against ML, then both he and their marriage have issues.

 

I never said GTY was a gentleman, and I also understand his tragedies and experiences in the past which lead to his result-focused methods. I sympathize with him and I'm also excited to see him on his way of improving himself, seeing ML and GTY bonding after marriage and resolve their issues. I just don't know why many don't realize that his method and his current way of thinking have problems?

Actually GTY did think about ML first, at least from my understanding from their conversation during the polo match (episode 39);  she was asked not to run away from him and listen to his sincere proposal first, if she still doesn't want to marry him after his sincere proposal then he won't force her to marry him.

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