[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否？知否？应是绿肥红瘦

[cherubstomato]

8 hours ago, RobinM said:

The blunt fact is: Grandma did a pretty poor job of raising Dad to be a strong and discerning man.She should have put as much care and wisdom into him as she has Ming Lan.

I think SH was raised by his mother and he only treats granny well because she protected him and his mother from the evil concubine. Granny also suffered miscarriage from an evil concubine. I believed it was expressed here pages back.... 

I also don’t feel sorry or pity for Molan. She is intelligent and driven but her ambition and everything she does is only so she can marry a rich man. She could care less about the teachings. She just wants to show off and have something to talk about with the rich. 

[Golden Flower]

3 hours ago, darkphoenix123 said:

@Golden Flower

Why does GTY need to be transparent with QH? They are not close friends like he is with CB. It’s been atleast a year since the whole QH & ML thing happened so why does QH need to be informed? Maybe it’s not wrong of him to ask GTY to give up based on his knowledge of the proposal but it’s very wrong of him to ask him to give up based on what he made ML go through! Or is it that he is so completely oblivious to what is being said about her because of him?

 

I can never defend QH but to each their own...

@Suzzy San 

Please read my comments carefully. I already mentioned that I’m not saying GTY was evil or he needs to be honest to QH since they’re love rivals. I also said that I’m not saying QH deserves ML. I’m also not defending QH. 

I just do not like the fact that GTY pretending and saying that he tried to help QH and ML to be together before which he was not sincere. I’m also pointing out the fact that he also calculated QH like he calculated Dr. He. His idea of kinapping princess would not help work if Yong Wang not Zhao Wang became emperor. I just think that he does not need to mention making himself magnanimous and blame QH for not taking his help when he was pressured by Yong Wang’s family. QH’s decision was right at that time given the circumstances his family faced. 

 

The truth is GTY even calculated new emperor. Zhao perfect was going to hide in the remote farm house after first assisination attack in the rice field. From the expression on GTY’s face, GTY either planned the second attack by alone assassin or he knew that that guy was assassin beforehand and could’ve prevented the attack. However, he let the assassin attack the Zhao Wang and only saved him at close knit point to freak Zhao out and to force him going to the capital. 

Overall, I’m just pointing out all GTY’s schemes and tricks.

[leeza77]

Ha ha

Spoiler

http://p.weibo.com/show/channerWbH5/1034:4329089201330789

 

[Suzzy San]

31 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

@Suzzy San 

Please read my comments carefully. I already mentioned that I’m not saying GTY was evil or he needs to be honest to QH since they’re love rivals. I also said that I’m not saying QH deserves ML. I’m also not defending QH. 

I just do not like the fact that GTY pretending and saying that he tried to help QH and ML to be together before which he was not sincere. I’m also pointing out the fact that he also calculated QH like he calculated Dr. He. His idea of kinapping princess would not help work if Yong Wang not Zhao Wang became emperor. I just think that he does not need to mention making himself magnanimous and blame QH for not taking his help when he was pressured by Yong Wang’s family. QH’s decision was right at that time given the circumstances his family faced. 

 

The truth is GTY even calculated new emperor. Zhao perfect was going to hide in the remote farm house after first assisination attack in the rice field. From the expression on GTY’s face, GTY either planned the second attack by alone assassin or he knew that that guy was assassin. However, he let the assassin attack the Zhao Wang and only saved him at close knit point to freak Zhao out and to force him going to the capital. 

Overall, I’m just pointing out all GTY’s schemes and tricks.

I know you are not saying GTY is bad. I understand the point you are making but somehow GTY already told ming lan that he started having the idea to marry her only after he saved her from drowning. So that means he truly wanted to help QH then at least to make ming lan's reputation not getting soiled. So,we already know GTY is not a pure man, he is very manipulative but what I think people still doesn't appreciate about QH is the fact that he still sees himself as some kind of high-class man who sees himself as the best man for ming lan, even though he does not know what others have done to win over her. 

To be honest of its someone that doesn't know QH, the person would also claim not to know what QH has done for ming lan other than soiling her name.. And the person will also claim that QH is not fit for her. So they both gets the share of where their personality leads them 

[UnniSarah]

9 hours ago, minglan1 said:

When Concubine Lin was screaming for help in the farmstead prison,ML's aunt said that she has brought shame to the Sheng household and encouraged the servants to ignore giving her medical treatment while bribing them.

Letting CL experience the absence of medical treatment was ML's idea of revenge.Didn't look like old madam or SH had any idea about it.My observations are purely based on the episodes.

@minglan1 Like I said before an eye for an eye.  Her goal was for to her feel what her mother experienced but her mom’s death was more painful , so I think she got it easy. I think she wanted her to die because she waited until she died to confess what she did. At least this time only one person died unlike Ming Lan’s Mom and baby brother died. To find out she was in pain since 3 am, Midwife showed up at 9 am-11am. We don’t know the exact time the midwife arrived. Then MidWife disappeared too and she had no servants to help her either. Only Ming Lan tried find a doctor for her mother but Concubine Lin said she said servant to look for a midwife when it wasn’t true. At least she confessed that Concubine Wei shouldn’t have dared to her pregnant and should have been content with just having Ming Lan. Hearing this richard simmons talk made feel no pity for her. She act like CW had a choice in not sleeping with her husband. Smh smh 

@ForgottenSoulx I agree with you . She deserved what she got. She had no remorse but she wanted ML to not hurt her precious daughter but she herself believes only her children are precious. 

@hello210 Thanks for explaining marriage life and inheritance in that era.

[minglan1]

@UnniSarah If Minglan didn't take revenge the drama wouldn't be so enticing.Good for her that she did and let us enjoy some wonderfully fast paced episodes.Concubine Lin had become too overconfident of her smartness and underestimated her opponent Minglan.When you do that you end up losing badly.I believe Miglan did exact one corpse two lives revenge on Concubine Lin.Her death and a perpetual unhappy miserable existence for her daughter Molan.

Now I am eagerly waiting to see Molan's pride of  getting the best marital match of a rich family bite the dust.

 

[tomo74]

I think I should moved on from discussing QH, it's very clear that people taking side, it sounds to me, when GTY acting cunning and manipulative to ML, people always find an excuse, but keep saying QH is bad, trashing ML reputation, like he do it in purpose, please look at the whole story and characters, I'm happy that some people already try to understand QH's character without squeeze him to death, once again, I'm not pro QH.

[Lunkera]

1 hour ago, leeza77 said:

Ha ha

  Hide contents

http://p.weibo.com/show/channerWbH5/1034:4329089201330789

 

LOL, that was cutely edited  

[gleek49]

@mayonnaisepan When Xiaotao ripped QH a new one, I was clapping like a seal. QH really needed to hear it, he needs to know what he did wrong in order to grow up and move on. Because honestly, up until his confrontation with GTY, I don't think he truly understand what he did wrong and how hard it was for ML because of his actions.

 

@ForgottenSoulx In NIF/NIF 2, I believe the dynasty is an actual real one. Just the emperor(s)/reign(s) are fictional.

 

 

[tomo74]

Now, talk about GTY, people say his best friend is CB, my question, why GTY have to mislead his bestie about marrying his sister, he can honestly say, "hey bro, I like your 6th sister and I plan to marry her, give me your blessing please", instead he just say (I don't know what his exact word, since I'm not up to that episode) I want to marry your sis (even though what he wants is ML), he should knows that his words will mislead CB and the whole Sheng family, lucky enough that RL doesn't like him, can you imagine what happen if RL likes him too, and they agree to let GTY marry RL, and then GTY will tell them, "um... actually I dont want RL, I want ML", if he is a gentlemen with good moral, he won't do that, how RL can live her life after that rejection, isn't he trashing RL reputation (purposely).

[Arieslazarel]

59 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

I think I should moved on from discussing QH, it's very clear that people taking side, it sounds to me, when GTY acting cunning and manipulative to ML, people always find an excuse, but keep saying QH is bad, trashing ML reputation, like he do it in purpose, please look at the whole story and characters, I'm happy that some people already try to understand QH's character without squeeze him to death, once again, I'm not pro QH.

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

[tomo74]

6 minutes ago, Jiyin Tu said:

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

you are one of the people who understand QH's character, if you read the previous comments, you'll get what I mean with my post.

[minglan1]

9 minutes ago, Jiyin Tu said:

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

Well said.

[gleek49]

GTY is cunning and manipulative, but he's honest to Minglan. He did what he did because he knows the straightforward way is not going to work. If Minglan herself is no longer have an issue with the way he operates, I don't see why we should argue about what he did is right or wrong.

 

It's not like people didn't rip GTY to shreds during the first 20 eps of this drama. But guess what, after he fell on his face, the guy moved on, learnt from his mistakes and got back on his feet taller than ever. I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for GTY or criticized QH because we "picking sides". Some of us just honestly believe that GTY is more suitable for ML, that what he did was within reasons. Some of us, like Xiaotao, just honestly don't like how QH handled his relationship with ML, so we're just stating our opinions, I don't think any of us criticize QH just out of spite to his character. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings/opinions. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[Lunkera]

I agree. QH isn't a bad person. But his personality during ancient dynasty's/kingdom's is a huge weakness. Heck, it's even a weakness to some degree in different professions. GTY and ML are more on the same level both emotionally and intellectually. Not talking about feelings when i say emotionally but they have both suffered alot in their family so they have mutual understanding and trust.

[gleek49]

27 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

Now, talk about GTY, people say his best friend is CB, my question, why GTY have to mislead his bestie about marrying his sister, he can honestly say, "hey bro, I like your 6th sister and I plan to marry her, give me your blessing please", instead he just say (I don't know what his exact word, since I'm not up to that episode) I want to marry your sis (even though what he wants is ML), he should knows that his words will mislead CB and the whole Sheng family, lucky enough that RL doesn't like him, can you imagine what happen if RL likes him too, and they agree to let GTY marry RL, and then GTY will tell them, "um... actually I dont want RL, I want ML", if he is a gentlemen with good moral, he won't do that, how RL can live her life after that rejection, isn't he trashing RL reputation (purposely).

 

If GTY let CB in on his scheme, then he would have asked CB to lie to his family for him. Do you think that's the better option for CB? To help his friend, he would have to lie to his parents and grandmother?

 

About Rulan, GTY told Minglan that (1) he was happy that the scholar is in the picture, which means that he knew RL would never happened to like him too. (2) He had thoroughly investigated the scholar, only after he confirmed that the scholar was trustworthy, that he proceeded with his plan. If the scholar is a bad guy, then he would have chased the guy out of the capital for Rulan and Sheng family's sake. 

[minglan1]

GTY's brother said he had been promoted as general of Jin army.The drama is based during Song dynasty so why is it called Jin instead of Song army?

[Arieslazarel]

5 minutes ago, Lunkera said:

I agree. QH isn't a bad person. But his personality during ancient dynasty's/kingdom's is a huge weakness. Heck, it's even a weakness to some degree in different professions. GTY and ML are more on the same level both emotionally and intellectually. Not talking about feelings when i say emotionally but they have both suffered alot in their family so they have mutual understanding and trust.

 

I actually think this is the most interesting part of the show, because QH is everything ancient China teaches a man should be! Loyal to his country, educated, moral etc. But it's all a lie! In order to survive, you can only ever have the appearance of these qualities. Truly living those principles can only lead to ruin. QH is outwitted and out-maneuvered by everyone around him - his mom, Yong family, GTY etc. And all because he tries to live by the principles he is taught his entire life - to be a good person. 

 

It's a really nice contrast against ML's female cousin in the countryside, who is everything that ancient China teaches a woman should be - kind, quiet, obedient, loving to the husband etc. And yet both characters end up in often brutal situations. 

 

It's a very philosophical lesson that being moral is in itself a privilege. The female cousin could live without manipulating all her life and become a "good" character because her family used money to buy her way through life. Every time her husband abused her, they just stuffed her husband with money. Similarly, QH grew up in a lap of luxury. He has always been a good, kind moral person because he's never been required to be anything else. A starving man doesn't care about doing the right thing when he cannot even fill his stomach. 

 

 

[Golden Flower]

@tomo74 Thanks for understanding my attempt in trying to point out things from QH’s point of view as well as GTY’s calculations toward QH. I just wanted non-native viewers to notice all the details and nuisances from conversations and expressions to get unbiased overall pictures of each character and events, respective of the era and irrespective of who are leads/ OTPs and who deserves female lead better. 

 

@Suzzy San So far, QH never said or shown that he is the only suitable high-class man for ML. He never disrespected ML for being shu born. He was totally against his parents’ idea of making ML his high concubine which is btw, very logical in the eyes of society in that era for ML being Shu daughter of 5th grade official and QH being son of a duke and 2nd grade princess. He never even said that GTY was not good enough for ML. He only said to Xiaotao that he wants ML to have a good life in the future which he is sincere (can see from his prayer before). We can only imply that he thinks that GTY was not good enough for ML due to his past behavior, reputations and incidents with Yu family (Manaing). You have to remember that GTY is a scoundrel in the view of aristocrats of the capital.  

 

I think you are getting order of events confused. GTY helped ML from drowning on the way to Sheng family ancestral  house in You Yan. That was right after QH’s mom non-proposal at ML’s house, QH followed ML along her trip to give ML the female doll and told ML that he would try again for his mom approval.

GTY joined the army stationed near You Yan (Sheng’s family hometown), basically he followed her there, and ended up helping ML again from bandits. He followed and protected ML and grandma in their trip back to the capital. If you watched GTY’s expression carefully, he has already shown feelings for ML and he created opportunities to be with her and have conversations with her (he could have taken her straight back to her group after he rescued her from bandits but took her to his camp outside the city). He even told his daughter to call ML aunt instead of sister. When ML is back to the capital, she heard about QH’s hunger strike with his mom to get her approval for their marriage. QH and ML then met alone last time at Gu family’s house and QH told ML that he would ask emperor’s benovelance for marriage decree. At that time, QH didn’t even know his family’s dilemma of getting marraige proposals from two powerful families, Long Fei Yan was raped and tortured by Yong Wang’s people because of him and the lives of ML and his family will be threatened by Yong Wang. 

 

I still do not agree that GTY’s plan in helping QH to go against Yong Wang would have worked at that time (of course, we say now that it would work because Yong Wang died and didn’t become emperor) and GTY was being sincere in helping him especially after he recently confessed to ML that he has set his mind in marrying her after he rescued her from drowning and she told him to plan for his life and his daughter’s future. I believed he offered help to QH knowing QH would not do anything reckless out of his principles and would not take risk in putting ML and his family in danger. He just wanted to make a point to QH that he doesn’t deserve ML for not fighting enough to get her (in GTY’s own perspective as he is someone who never adhered to society rules at that time). He tried to put a wedge between ML and QH by telling her QH not going to be able to go against his filial piety by referring him to emperor of Míng of Tang (this was before he offered his help to QH in going against Yong Wang).

 

Again, I’m not saying what GTY did was terrible. I’m just pointing out He did everything he could including calculating, scheming, tricking everyone including QH and changing others' lives in gaining ML’s hands and he is a very flawed character. Of course, I applaud him for achieving his goal and I agree that he is best choice for ML as both of them are against traditional point of view. However, we including GTY should not blame QH for not taking GTY’s help and advice to go against Yong Wang. 

From now, I’ll move on from trying to point out about situation and circumstances surrounding QH. Cheers!    

[Golden Flower]

15 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

GTY's brother said he had been promoted as general of Jin army.The drama is based during Song dynasty so why is it called Jin instead of Song army?

GTY is now general of army that protects the city. Juan Jin mentioned was not Jin army. It is the army that protects the capital city.