[Mainland Chinese Drama 2017] The King’s Woman 泰时丽人明月心

[Guest]

 

I have feeling the ending will be messy... 

 

[sveta89]

here is a break from all the miserable previews 

dd and bin2 in a different show clip 

 

[dramalover1]

5 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@eighbcdefg Egads, I don't have hope and this has turned into very badly made pudding.  Let's see what we can make stick.  While I hope that there are some who share @tudorrose optimism, I have increasingly fallen off that wagon.

 

@blessedchild I don't know what to think anymore.  I will just admire the artwork and ZBB's acting.  JK makes me roll my eyes again and again... @january1234 maybe we could all make a gif where JK rolls his eyes again and again?

 

Honestly, this drama needed to be crowdsourced, especially by our resident expert @dramalover1!  

 

@january1234 if you are studying Mandarin, good for you and Korean is much, much, much easier than Mandarin.  I don't have to memorize endless numbers of characters.  

 

Regardless of how bad this drama has been, this has been the most rewarding place and I am inspired by everyone's insights.  Maybe precisely because this drama has become so bad, we are all very good at picking it apart rather than fawning over it?  

 

Let's get back to basic and the beginning - YZ, just slice everyone's throat and be done with it, and have your RIchard Simmons moment.  That's how it will end.

 

Haha, you're being too kind.

 

But I agree that they should've just concentrated on making this drama awesome rather than focusing on connecting it to Legend of Qin.

 

And Korean is easier to learn than Chinese, but grammar can be very complicated, esp. because the word order is the opposite of English, and Korean often skips subject & object and a bunch of markers. (Japanese is similar, but you have to learn at least 2-3k Chinese characters to be considered high-school graduate literate)

 

6 hours ago, eighbcdefg said:

Honestly................

 

What kind of nonsense is this? All this time, Li still kept the scarf given to her by JK, and AGAIN, organises their meeting outside the palace? For JK to give that uncomfortable "I've missed you so much" expression while they're hugging? And for her to tell Tianming that JK is his real father!!!!

 

She says that she wants Tianming to grow up and become as heroic as his father JK --- what a joke! Cry and drink for maaany many hours, act like a fool, and then suddenly wanting to kill the king out of pettiness and rage? Yeah, sure, how heroic. 

 

(However, to save what little hope there is left for the "main couple" --> in another teaser for ep. 46, when Li and JK are hugging, the camera pans around and Li isn't smiling or making that weird expression JK is making.) 

 

 

The problem is they made JK so unsympathetic and unheroic that it's a joke now. It doesn't help that neither JK nor Li can act. 

 

 

7 hours ago, shimshimae said:

Now I think YZ never really loved Li, he loves the "idea" of her but not her because if he really did, he would never abuse her or throw her off so easily (even if he repents later) - his love is more of possession - hence the strong case of insecurity and jealousy (his own personal issues don't help either) - there are moments when he genuinely seemed to love her - like when he let HS take her away - but again they are just moments. I was surprised that when she miscarries he doesn't even hug her or console her, he just storms off saying he'll get to the end of it - whatever he does later is another thing - but shouldn't he at least hold his wife and grieve for their unborn baby? 

 

So, both are deeply flawed, one is physically abusive, the other emotionally abusive - in a way it's a strong relationship but very unhealthy lol 

 

Only thing ZBB was able to play his part convincingly - so even when we can't accept his character, we are still sympathetic. He totally overpowered DD in many scenes. 

 

 

YZ  loved the self-less act she did for him way back when, when he had no power or money to offer her (saving his life).  Given that nobody in his life did anything like that for him without wanting something in return (his parents only wanted him for the power he could give them, his men protect him because he's the king, etc.).

 

He was also touched when Li was stabbed at the inn in Ep 2, thereby saving his life when he was just pretending to be a merchant. 

 

And him wanting that selfless, unconditional pure love --> his obsession with Li.

 

The problem is that Li is a very selfish and inconsistent person, so it led to the destruction of the couple as a unit. 

 

 

8 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@lavender2love I hope that I am proven wrong and that @tudorrose  ends up being right.  Someone mentioned that they saw on Weibo that YZ stabs Li-er so I am not expecting anything good and the previews may not be right or they may be teasing us but seriously why is Li-er even embracing JK or trying to protect him when he is being a fool?  The actor who plays JK does not grow on a person so I do not even think him even remotely handsome anymore - I cannot get over his perpetual fish pout.

 

Because JK probably has a power agency behind him that wants to make him a star despite his lemon-sucking face.

 

8 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

And that was probably the ultimate world paradigm for kings and world leaders... something had to be driving you to want to reach the top.  And given the historical background and how brutal this period of history was, I doubt that the real YZ was all that different from other kings of his era.  When you become king at 13 and you survive to adulthood and ultimately are able to claim your prerogatives as king, that means that you were most likely damaged emotionally and will never be given an opportunity to heal.  And he will always be wondering when and where you betrayed him.

 

As for the love triangle/rectangle, whatever - JK is not worth anything and I don't understand why they casted this actor.  He seems lifeless even during press conferences.  And HS is fine for the modern world but for that era, he is a little bit baffling.  Anyway in dramas, the person with the most screen presence wins and that is YZ.  I have given up on Li.

 

By the way, has anyone noticed that DD has another role in The Flame's Daughter where she has the triangle/rectangle structure again? She cannot manage that in The King's Woman effectively and someone thought it was a good idea to offer it again to her?

 

Also, I have a big fan of still poster art and I have to say The King's Woman has some of the best, and this still art was what initially attracted me to the drama - DD made up is quite something to gaze at... until she opens her mouth and furrows her brow.  Then she kind of loses me.  And ZBB's gaze in the still posters, but has anyone else noticed that in these still posters, every character is actually solo?  DD and ZBB may pose together but they never actually look at each other?  They are looking at us or at some distant point.

 

I dunno. Not all kings had:

 

power = fear = protection

 

Some kings had 

 

Discord = Power = Authority

 

^ Sukjung of Korea's method.

 

Taejong: Purge = Power = Strong nation

 

Jeongjo: Perfection = Power

 

I saw that casting w/ DD. She's also cast w/ ZBB for that drama. Another love rectangle. Ugh. ZBB is not her main interest IIRC.

 

 

8 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@shimshimae Agree wholeheartedly that YZ actually fathering Tian Ming and being in doubt about his paternity would have been the best storyline.  But I think that the writers are too focused on connecting the dots with The Legend of Qin, and although I have never read the actual novel, I understand that YZ was a very minor character and he was a 1-note character in the novel, and that JK and Li-er were supposed to be heroic and sympathetic whereas YZ has no sympathy built into him at all.  But if the writers had departed from the original novel anyway, then they should have departed completely since they only want to keep the bare bones of it.  Given what @dramalover1 pointed out about Yang Mi agency, etc. and how DD is allegedly her heir, this drama seems to have been originally built as a vehicle for DD and then somehow ZBB took it from her.  DD is the first one in the credits but she is not leading this drama.

 

I rewatched Eternal Love just to figure out expressions, and if the sound were silent and I turned off the subtitles too, there was fundamentally no different in the characters in The King's Woman and Eternal Love as far as DD was concerned - the same brow furrowing, the same smiles, the same poses, the same "oh my, I didn't know" or "I'm confused" or "I'm distressed that I caused this mayhem... I am sorry" - and what I have come to realize even with the costuming is that DD does NOT fit the concubine costumes in The King's Woman.  The clothes inhabit her - she does wear the clothes - it feels like these beautiful costumes and hairstyles and hair pieces basically vomited all over her.  Whereas ZBB is controlling the costumes and he is wearing that crown... even when he is acting goofy on the behind the scenes videos, he seems comfortable in the king's clothing and DD does not.  She looks like she is playing at being Li-er rather than becoming and being Li-er.

 

I was super-surprised when I checked out the ages like @dramalover1 & @shimshimae - I would have thought ZBB older than DD but he is actually a year younger and seems more mature.  At least this is for sure, he has figured out how to inhabit his roles and to be the character rather than playing the character.  What ZBB does really well: sarcasm, the stares, resolution, the hidden tenderness, playful ness, the smile out of nowhere - what ZBB should become better at - portraying range of emotions that flitter through a person when an event that should bring joy but oddly enough brings grief - he is working on it and he will become better with practice and time.  

 

At this point, I am convinced that Li-er is incapable of loving anyone - I am not sure that she ever truly loved JK, YZ or HS, and I agree with you @shimshimae there was no reason for the triangle/rectangle among the 4 characters.  If the writers wanted to depart from the novel (where Li-er and JK were actually married, not just colleagues and lovers), then they should have done it completely not just half-baked like this.  This dessert is just not doing it for me.

 

 

I do think that ZBB is  going to be a bigger star than DD because DD just doesn't have the star power or the presence.

 

 

9 hours ago, shimshimae said:

Yup. So true about YZ view of the world! What's pitiable is he holds this one action from his childhood as this perfect moment, (kid Li's bravery, kindness and courage) and keeps looking for it in the adult Li who initially hates him to the core. So much so that he has to literally force his way into her heart. 

 

What lonely world it must be for him! Like he mentions somewhere in the drama he compromised in everyway for her - he lets TM live, accepts HS as her bodyguard, etc etc. 

 

But while Li "in theory" understands him (like how she explains his actions to her seniors during her escape) - she doesn't do anything which actively heals him. 

 

And YZ also doesn't particularly do anything emotionally for her - like yes, he gives her everything but they never really talk about important issues - talking is so important! And it's healing - because even Li is an alien place where everyone is against her, shouldn't she becomes friends with the king (leaving as the romance) - friendship can build trust and heal in a more sustainable way. (And it goes both ways, Li does need a strong partner and neither of her seniors are a match for her even in her most dumb state LOL)

 

The only time they properly talked was when YZ tells her about his brother etc etc - I wish they talked more so that she didn't end up doing stupid stuff and get everyone unnecessarily involved. If she really listened to him, a lot of the issues would have resolved themselves and they could have grown stronger as a couple. Sigh. And if she talked to him more openheartedly, he wouldn't have been so insecure and jealous, I think.

 

But Li doesn't have to be healed.

 

Because YZ is such a flawed character, Li can be the catalyst character (the one who brings about change in the damaged character).

 

And that would make more sense given how limited DD's acting is. And how much more dominant YZ is.

 

But Li cannot be a catalyst character here because she's an idiot, does horribly inconsistent things.

[dramalover1]

Yan Dan assassination is so stupid it hurts.

 

JK doesn't have to do it. There are others who can kill YZ.

 

General Fan's head is just a way to get inside Qin palace.

 

That old man who kills himself -- He did it to protect Yan Dan. In reality, he did it because Yan Dan suspected that he may reveal the plot to others, so the old man felt humiliated (his honor being wronged) and killed himself to prove that he's not a big mouthed idiot.

 

I've always found Yan Dan Crown Prince (historical record basis) to be an idiot who brought down his kingdom with stupid tricks (like trying to kill YZ).  Yan Dan also sent a thug he hired along w/ JK to Qin, ostensibly to help JK, but who knows why he sent that fool? The thug behaved so strangely in the presence of YZ that everyone started to suspect something was off (the thug started to act scared).

 

As for JK, he's just a failed assassin.

[tudorrose]

19 hours ago, tudorrose said:

! I've seen episode 42. There is no doubt in my mind now that this will end good. ! I couldn't agree more on the things that HS told to JK. He may have realized his mistakes but it's too late already. A (very handsome) fool until the end. I can't wait to see the ending. It's not a happy one but still it's the beginning of something and that is what i want to see.

 

SORRY BUT I DIDN'T TYPE CORRECTLY! I WASN'T REALLY INTO TYPING AT THAT MOMENT I MISSED A FEW VERY IMPORTANT WORDS!

 

THE CORRECT ONE IS THIS - There is no doubt that this will end up not turning out good.

 

SORRY, I MISLED SOME. 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, lavender2love said:

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv  and as for how The King's Woman will end... the song "Walk Through Fire" probably says it best and I believe that someone posted a MV of The King's Woman with this as the background song.  "Did we take too many chances/do we let too many pass us/did we throw it all away/did we light too many matches/turn ourselves into these ashes/"  and if it ends the way the trailers hint, then probably yes.

 

@tudorroseI've seen episode 42. There is no doubt in my mind now that this will end good. I couldn't agree more on the things that HS told to JK. He may have realized his mistakes but it's too late already. A (very handsome) fool until the end. I can't wait to see the ending. It's not a happy one but still it's the beginning of something and that is what i want to see.

 

Gosh..... @rosamundekingsley99_stv and @tudorrose now we have two opposing views. I'm torn.  Sad then happy then dismay then hopeful then wallowing again

The waiting is suspenseful.

 

 

11 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@lavender2love I hope that I am proven wrong and that @tudorrose  ends up being right.  Someone mentioned that they saw on Weibo that YZ stabs Li-er so I am not expecting anything good and the previews may not be right or they may be teasing us but seriously why is Li-er even embracing JK or trying to protect him when he is being a fool?  The actor who plays JK does not grow on a person so I do not even think him even remotely handsome anymore - I cannot get over his perpetual fish pout.

 

8 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@eighbcdefg Egads, I don't have hope and this has turned into very badly made pudding.  Let's see what we can make stick.  While I hope that there are some who share @tudorrose optimism, I have increasingly fallen off that wagon.

 

 

Regardless of how bad this drama has been, this has been the most rewarding place and I am inspired by everyone's insights.  Maybe precisely because this drama has become so bad, we are all very good at picking it apart rather than fawning over it?  

 

Let's get back to basic and the beginning - YZ, just slice everyone's throat and be done with it, and have your RIchard Simmons moment.  That's how it will end.

 

 

 

 

 

I want a happy ending. I'm a hopeless romantic so i love "and they live happily ever after" stories but I understand that this drama's objective is to not give a happy ending but to tell the story of YZ with the fictitious GSL. Whether or not this will end good doesn't matter because it's still a beautiful love story, short, but then nothing last forever in the first place, theirs just came earlier.

[dramalover1]

@rosamundekingsley99_stv

 

I didn't address one of your point because I'm in rush at the moment, but ...

 

The reason why DD looks like she's being overwhelmed by her outfit/hair, etc. is that she can't project the authority of person who wears such things. She looks really uncomfortable in court clothes. 

 

If you look at Ep 37, the way ZBB carries himself even in a peasant's outfit makes it clear he's someone of authority (when he confronts unruly soldiers from Qin). That's why he can carry off his royal clothes and hair, etc. 

[meiazza]

10 hours ago, eighbcdefg said:

Honestly................

 

What kind of nonsense is this? All this time, Li still kept the scarf given to her by JK, and AGAIN, organises their meeting outside the palace? For JK to give that uncomfortable "I've missed you so much" expression while they're hugging? And for her to tell Tianming that JK is his real father!!!!

 

She says that she wants Tianming to grow up and become as heroic as his father JK --- what a joke! Cry and drink for maaany many hours, act like a fool, and then suddenly wanting to kill the king out of pettiness and rage? Yeah, sure, how heroic. 

 

I have not watched last week episode yet but OMG IS THIS TRUE? she told Tian Ming about his real father??? after all her trying to keep it secret for everybody's safety? I'm thinking maybe the writer wanted to make a connection with "Legend of Qin" drama? and then if she also finally told this big truth to JK, then these two deserve their tragic ending. Gosh I don't undertand why she keeps being inconsistent, why meeting with JK when she already let him go... it's dangerous knowing how YZ is. 

[Latte_Anyday]

@shimshimae said:-

Quote

Now I think YZ never really loved Li, he loves the "idea" of her but not her because if he really did, he would never abuse her or throw her off so easily (even if he repents later) - his love is more of possession - hence the strong case of insecurity and jealousy (his own personal issues don't help either) - there are moments when he genuinely seemed to love her - like when he let HS take her away - but again they are just moments. I was surprised that when she miscarries he doesn't even hug her or console her, he just storms off saying he'll get to the end of it - whatever he does later is another thing - but shouldn't he at least hold his wife and grieve for their unborn baby? 

It's like what @dramalover1 said, The King was vulnerable when he first met Li. She was like a ray of sunshine in his dull, lifeless world (wow that was poetic LoL) She saved his life countless of times, but more than that he felt indebted to her because she was willing to put her life on the line for him which is huge. Since y'know given his less than happy childhood. Also I think he craved for that maternal affection he sorely missed growing up & Li filled that void I guess? He sort of used her as an emotional crutch. I can't tell you how many times I cringe whenever he begged her to never leave him LoL. It was so pathetically uncharacteristic of a savage ruthless ruler. He just seem like a wimp #sorrynotsorry #stillloveBin2 

As to why there's lack of emotion on his end when news of miscarriage on his royal heir was largely due to the fact he was and still is paranoid. The man ordered the massive construction of an army of terracotta warriors to accompany him into his afterlife - buried together in his tomb. 

[dramalover1]

@shimshimae

 

i think that he didn't console Li after miscarriage because Min played his insecurity that he's Li's second choice. She reminds him that TM's JK's baby and Li and JK met before she got pregnant (they met twice and spent a night in a cave again after JK rescues her from Li Si's mercenaries. And Li hid the fact that she met JK which was the biggest driver behind YZbeing so nasty to her after Min told YZ she rescued Yan Dan)

 

 

[ForgottenSoulx]

im torn between this and princess agents to watch both are quite popular on fast drama ;p

[dramalover1]

37 minutes ago, Wotad said:

im torn between this and princess agents to watch both are quite popular on fast drama ;p

 

If you haven't done so yet, watch Eternal Love - 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms (drama NOT movie) instead.

[shimshimae]

@Latte_Anyday and @dramalover1 - I don't particularly have an issue with his reaction to her miscarriage- I only rhetorically asked it to support the main claim that he doesn't really love Li. Because if he did, his response would have been very different nothwithstanding the main issue that Li isn't very loveable lol

@dramalover1 worded it in a better way "he loves the selfless acts of Li" 

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv true about this thread being super insightful given how bad the writing and some of the acting is lol

 

I'm learning Korean too. I recently (just today) started reading one of my favourite Korean dramas (Seven Day Queen) script - I barely managed to understand two sentences and it took me an hour but on the plus side I'm a bit more comfortable with those topic/subject/object markers lol I learnt more grammar from two sentences than I did from reading all those grammar books lol

[dramalover1]

11 minutes ago, shimshimae said:

@Latte_Anyday and @dramalover1 - I don't particularly have an issue with his reaction to her miscarriage- I only rhetorically asked it to support the main claim that he doesn't really love Li. Because if he did, his response would have been very different nothwithstanding the main issue that Li isn't very loveable lol

@dramalover1 worded it in a better way "he loves the selfless acts of Li" 

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv true about this thread being super insightful given how bad the writing and some of the acting is lol

 

I'm learning Korean too. I recently (just today) started reading one of my favourite Korean dramas (Seven Day Queen) script - I barely managed to understand two sentences and it took me an hour but on the plus side I'm a bit more comfortable with those topic/subject/object markers lol I learnt more grammar from two sentences than I did from reading all those grammar books lol

 

 

I actually thought his issue is that he loves her too much, despite her flaws. he started out loving her acts, then he used her past actions to cover up her flaws and issues that continue to damage their relationship.

 

His love for her should've died when she came to the palace, pregnant with JK's baby. Instead, he kept on, probably because he couldn't give up on the only chance at unconditional love.

 

So when Min attacked Li and told YZ and Li that Li's baby could've been her senior's because she spent a night with him before (during her rescue when Li Si kidnapped her PLUS when she staged fake kidnapping), I think it really got to YZ. It was very obvious in his convo with LZ afterward. And I think YZ's main issue there was that he felt like maybe he was still Li's second choice (consolation prize because she couldn't have JK) and because she hid the fact that the person who rescued her from Li Si's thugs is JK. She led everyone to believe HS rescued he alone. I think YZ trusts that HS wouldn't betray YZ' and sleep with Li, but he's not sure about JK because he's certain Li still has deep feelings for him. 

 

Ah, that's a lot of work. I'm glad I just learned Korean as a child, so I just know. I watch K-dramas RAW, which may explain why I react very differently than many do (because I don't need to rely on sub, and some subs are TERRIBLE and miss the subtext and subtle nuance of words used, and I"m picky about diction because poor diction makes it harder to understand what's going on / dialogue ). 

[shimshimae]

10 minutes ago, dramalover1 said:

I actually thought his issue is that he loves her too much, despite her flaws. he started out loving her acts, then he used her past actions to cover up her flaws and issues that continue to damage their relationship.

 

His love for her should've died when she came to the palace, pregnant with JK's baby. Instead, he kept on, probably because he couldn't give up on the only chance at unconditional love.

 

So when Min attacked Li and told YZ and Li that Li's baby could've been her senior's because she spent a night with him before (during her rescue when Li Si kidnapped her PLUS when she staged fake kidnapping), I think it really got to YZ. It was very obvious in his convo with LZ afterward. And I think YZ's main issue there was that he felt like maybe he was still Li's second choice (consolation prize because she couldn't have JK) and because she hid the fact that the person who rescued her from Li Si's thugs is JK. She led everyone to believe HS rescued he alone. I think YZ trusts that HS wouldn't betray YZ' and sleep with Li, but he's not sure about JK because he's certain Li still has deep feelings for him. 

 

Ah, that's a lot of work. I'm glad I just learned Korean as a child, so I just know. I watch K-dramas RAW, which may explain why I react very differently than many do (because I don't need to rely on sub, and some subs are TERRIBLE and miss the subtext and subtle nuance of words used, and I"m picky about diction because poor diction makes it harder to understand what's going on / dialogue ). 

Agreed to your points - but what I meant by 'love' was selfless love - like if he indeed loved her selflessly it wouldn't really matter what Li did - even if she actually slept with JK (thank God she didn't), he would love her anyway. But because he's a king and a volatile person - he cannot love selflessly - he has to be certain that Li loves him the most - ergo all jealousy, insecurity. 

 

Yup. Watching with subs is a pain! So much is lost in translation! I tried picking up Korean from watching kdramas but couldn't really progress much - like I know a lot of vocabulary but I can't string sentences together because I don't know the rules/grammar lol so then I decided to do it properly learning the script (which is pretty easy) and the syntax (the hard part). 

[shimshimae]

Of course I don't expect YZ to love Li selflessly but that would be a nice contrast if he really did - like he keeps looking for selfless love but maybe he can only find it through his own actions of selflessness?

[dramalover1]

18 minutes ago, shimshimae said:

Agreed to your points - but what I meant by 'love' was selfless love - like if he indeed loved her selflessly it wouldn't really matter what Li did - even if she actually slept with JK (thank God she didn't), he would love her anyway. But because he's a king and a volatile person - he cannot love selflessly - he has to be certain that Li loves him the most - ergo all jealousy, insecurity. 

 

Yup. Watching with subs is a pain! So much is lost in translation! I tried picking up Korean from watching kdramas but couldn't really progress much - like I know a lot of vocabulary but I can't string sentences together because I don't know the rules/grammar lol so then I decided to do it properly learning the script (which is pretty easy) and the syntax (the hard part). 

 

 

I don't know if such depth of selfless love is possible in most cases. And certainly, Li does not deserve selfless love.  Can you love a person who betrays you repeatedly?  (Li betrayed YZ multiple times -- taking the medicine for JK, then coming to the palace after sleeping with JK and pregnant / leaving the palace after vowing she will never do so / she lied about who rescued her from Li Si / let Yan Dan escape, etc.) I already thought YZ gave her selfless love when he not only lied to others about TM being his own child, but not punish her for leaving the palace (breaking her vow to him). It's just that Li keeps doing things to damage the love YZ feels for her. 

 

I thought one of the best  portrayals of selfless love is found in Eternal Love 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms. Ye Hua does the selfless love in the drama, but a lot of that is driven by the way he is AND the fact that the woman he loves is worthy of that love. Bai Qian has NEVER betrayed him. NEVER. She doesn't break her promise, she doesn't play mind games with people, she's very clear on what she wants / doesn't want, she's loyal to her people and expresses her opinions clearly. Contrast to that, YH has failed BQ before, which is another thing that largely drives the second half of the story -- a redemptive arc for YH for how he wronged BQ before (when she was Susu). 

 

But even in Eternal Love, YH and BQ are both INCREDIBLY jealous and possessive. They hate it when others come near each other, when others talk to each other romantically, etc. And you know, that's very natural when you value the person. It's just that when you let that jealousy destroy your relationship (or damage the other person) it goes too far. 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

4 hours ago, dramalover1 said:

@shimshimae

 

i think that he didn't console Li after miscarriage because Min played his insecurity that he's Li's second choice. She reminds him that TM's JK's baby and Li and JK met before she got pregnant (they met twice and spent a night in a cave again after JK rescues her from Li Si's mercenaries. And Li hid the fact that she met JK which was the biggest driver behind YZbeing so nasty to her after Min told YZ she rescued Yan Dan)

 

 

A lot of the problem with this drama is that the writers seem to be thinking one transaction at a time instead of holistically thinking - so in figure skating/gymnastics parlance, none of the tricks are connected - they are separate and there are no transitions (other than the fading black screen).  So Li makes no sense and neither YZ when it comes to moments like miscarriage - there are no connecting elements - each scene by itself may make sense but not all of the scenes put together.

[dramalover1]

Korean grammar is complex because you also have to deal with multiple levels of politeness. Used incorrectly, you end up sounding rude or weird. Some Koreans can't use them correctly either. Chinese is probably easier because you don't have that level of complexity in conjugation and words. 

2 minutes ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

A lot of the problem with this drama is that the writers seem to be thinking one transaction at a time instead of holistically thinking - so in figure skating/gymnastics parlance, none of the tricks are connected - they are separate and there are no transitions (other than the fading black screen).  So Li makes no sense and neither YZ when it comes to moments like miscarriage - there are no connecting elements - each scene by itself may make sense but not all of the scenes put together.

 

Transitions are self-serve. LOL 

[january1234]

IDK- are we supposed to believe she's some kind of heroine because she now wants to rid the world of the nasty tyrant her ex lover and the (IMO idiotic ) assassination plot is a way of asserting family unity and her own national identity...The family that assassinates the Tyrant King together...

@shimshimae-interesting point about YZ trying to love selflessly by acting selflessly. He did try to allow her to live independently outside the palace with TM from 35/6 when he said he couldn't guarantee to look after her-then she went looking for him when he went missing on the expedition to conquer Han. His trying to battle with his DNA-and try acts of selflessness because he loved her/the idea of her would've been a better story for me, as their chemistry and his conflict  would've been more compelling  to watch- and MAYBE it might've  been more within DD's acting capabilities. ZBB IMO might not have been spread so thinly then.  I personally can not accept her as this larger than life epic heroine, because I do not think she has the screen presence for that.

 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

39 minutes ago, dramalover1 said:

 

 

I actually thought his issue is that he loves her too much, despite her flaws. he started out loving her acts, then he used her past actions to cover up her flaws and issues that continue to damage their relationship.

 

His love for her should've died when she came to the palace, pregnant with JK's baby. Instead, he kept on, probably because he couldn't give up on the only chance at unconditional love.

 

So when Min attacked Li and told YZ and Li that Li's baby could've been her senior's because she spent a night with him before (during her rescue when Li Si kidnapped her PLUS when she staged fake kidnapping), I think it really got to YZ. It was very obvious in his convo with LZ afterward. And I think YZ's main issue there was that he felt like maybe he was still Li's second choice (consolation prize because she couldn't have JK) and because she hid the fact that the person who rescued her from Li Si's thugs is JK. She led everyone to believe HS rescued he alone. I think YZ trusts that HS wouldn't betray YZ' and sleep with Li, but he's not sure about JK because he's certain Li still has deep feelings for him. 

 

Ah, that's a lot of work. I'm glad I just learned Korean as a child, so I just know. I watch K-dramas RAW, which may explain why I react very differently than many do (because I don't need to rely on sub, and some subs are TERRIBLE and miss the subtext and subtle nuance of words used, and I"m picky about diction because poor diction makes it harder to understand what's going on / dialogue ). 

@dramalover1 Completely agree with this analysis - YZ loves Li-er as she was when she was a child and when she protected him during that scuffle when he was going undercover.  But sometimes illusions are difficult to be rid of when you have clung to them for so long and YZ does not have any other illusion to cling to.

 

Actually this drama needed more of the emperor undercover and there were dialogue lines that hinted at it  -when Yan Dan mentioned that YZ tried to understand his people and went without fur coverings and Yan Dan could not understand this.  Yan Dan historically was just stupid (Amen!) and in this drama, he just can't act.

 

You and I are in the same boat - I am very glad that I learned Korean as a child so I do watch K-dramas raw as well and the subtitles miss many of the nuances, especially in the songs that play in the background.

 

6 minutes ago, dramalover1 said:

 

 

I don't know if such depth of selfless love is possible in most cases. And certainly, Li does not deserve selfless love.  Can you love a person who betrays you repeatedly?  (Li betrayed YZ multiple times -- taking the medicine for JK, then coming to the palace after sleeping with JK and pregnant / leaving the palace after vowing she will never do so / she lied about who rescued her from Li Si / let Yan Dan escape, etc.) I already thought YZ gave her selfless love when he not only lied to others about TM being his own child, but not punish her for leaving the palace (breaking her vow to him). It's just that Li keeps doing things to damage the love YZ feels for her. 

 

I thought one of the best  portrayals of selfless love is found in Eternal Love 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms. Ye Hua does the selfless love in the drama, but a lot of that is driven by the way he is AND the fact that the woman he loves is worthy of that love. Bai Qian has NEVER betrayed him. NEVER. She doesn't break her promise, she doesn't play mind games with people, she's very clear on what she wants / doesn't want, she's loyal to her people and expresses her opinions clearly. Contrast to that, YH has failed BQ before, which is another thing that largely drives the second half of the story -- a redemptive arc for YH for how he wronged BQ before (when she was Susu). 

 

But even in Eternal Love, YH and BQ are both INCREDIBLY jealous and possessive. They hate it when others come near each other, when others talk to each other romantically, etc. And you know, that's very natural when you value the person. It's just that when you let that jealousy destroy your relationship (or damage the other person) it goes too far. 

I don't know that any love is truly selfless - it is only selfless in the sense that you love that other person despite his/her flaws and then Kdramas do a terrible job of demonstrating selfless love and it becomes noble idiot.  What Kdramas do really well is obsessive love, which is unhealthy and dangerous.

 

Look at the end of the day, this whole drama has pieces that are adorable but they pieces do not meld together seamlessly and because we are humans, we are trying to find logic and patterns in these characters' actions because we all have confirmation bias.  Instead of trying to find patterns, I have given up and decided that too many writers have created a massively unappetizing pudding - there is no grace maybe except for the soundtrack melodies.

7 minutes ago, january1234 said:

IDK- are we supposed to believe she's some kind of heroine because she now wants to rid the world of the nasty tyrant her ex lover and the (IMO idiotic ) assassination plot is a way of asserting family unity and her own national identity...The family that assassinates the Tyrant King together...

@shimshimae-interesting point about YZ trying to find how to love selflessly. He did try to allow her to live independently outside the palace with TM 9from 35/6 when he said he couldn't guarantee to look after her-then she went looking for him when he went missing on the expedition to conquer Han. His trying to battle with his DNA-and try acts of selflessness because he loved her/the idea of her would've been a better story for me, as their chemistry would've been more compelling  to watch- and MAYBE it might've  been more within DD's acting capabilities.I  personally can not accept her as this larger than life epic heroine.

Honestly DD should NEVER be a larger than life heroine.  She looks too pathetic for that.  She is beautiful and her comparative advantage is that she looks different from traditional Chinese actresses, but that is about it.  Like @dramalover1 observed, DD cannot carry off the court clothes - she looks uncomfortable and she does not have presence whether it be court or peasant clothing, which ZBB has.