[Mainland Chinese Drama 2017] The King’s Woman 泰时丽人明月心

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 hours ago, eighbcdefg said:

I read some Chinese comments on the ending, saying that: 

 

Li does love the king, but she is disappointed that he never trusted her. Qing'er actually working for the king all along, and the king knowing everything about her and JK all this time, was the ultimate catalyst.

 

When the two were charging at each other with their swords, the king had, in theory, already given up his plans of unifying China, and was ready to die together with Li. (Thus proving that he loves her?) That's why he didn't retract his sword, or defend himself. But it was also his mistrust of Li that caused him to believe that she would actually kill him for JK. Therefore, the king single-handedly ruined the relationship between him and Li, and killed her, because of his mistrust and inability to understand that Li did love him, and not JK. Throughout the entire thing, YZ loves Li, but he loves his ambitions to unite China more. 

 

Li withdrawing her sword shows that she could not kill YZ, (probably because she loves him). Her using her last breath to tell him that she died in order for him to experience what killing his most loved one felt like, and that in order to be a good ruler, he must be able to empathize with the normal masses, could just convey that she died for him ---- therefore, she does love him.  

 

(Watching JK getting killed was somehow satisfying........... sorry )

First, I hope JK getting killed was TRULY satisfying.  He is one of the most annoying and useless characters.

 

So... did all the Chinese audiences get this?  This is very Nietzsche in meaning or are we again trying to attach meaning to something that we do not understand?

 

Right now, I feel as if I am viewing modern art - you know the type of art that needlessly has all these beautiful primary colors splashed together and you do not understand it and because you do not understand it, you feel stupid.

 

That's what I am feeling right now after reading @eighbcdefg recap of what Chinese audiences wrote about - clearly I am missing something in the nuances because I totally did not get this at all.

 

I am very open to this interpretation but this then seems like a needlessly infinity looped French movie that only those who are very deep and thoughtful will understand.

 

Sorry - I think that I fit into the superficial camp - this, I did not get at all.  But thank you for sharing @eighbcdefg - this definitely opened my eyes.  Clearly I am a linear thinker, not 4D chess.

2 hours ago, january1234 said:

@dramalover1. Re above post . My tiny head hurts...

@january1234 Right now I am beyond my dumb head hurts... I am numb.  I have to go back and re-read all the philosophers to understand the deep meaning of this drama and its ending.  And even then, I am not sure that I quite understand.

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 hours ago, eighbcdefg said:

 

I think making TM crown prince to protect Li is something YZ considered (and is what he told Li), but as he insinuated to Lizhong, he wants to ultimately appoint Fusu as crown prince, but plans to give the spot to TM only for now, to train Fusu to become more aggressive/firm as sibling rivalry will follow TM's appointment. This sibling rivalry would then be what causes others to destroy TM. 

 

3 hours ago, eighbcdefg said:

 

I am not sure why Li was surprised by this... she was too greedy if she really wanted the king title for TM - seriously????  In an era when paternity mattered so much and YZ was tortured by his own allegedly non-king paternity?  And what YZ was doing is what kings have often done in the past - set brother against brother (and this was when both were related by blood at a minimum same father even if different mothers) - don't forget all the dead sons of Taejo killed by Taejong... h/t on history thanks to @dramalover1

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 hours ago, dramalover1 said:

A Korean blogger who speaks Mandarin said 

 

YZ wants to make TM crown prince to make Li more powerful and to ensure she never leaves him. But he wants to have Fusu inherit the throne ultimately. This makes Li upset. So she decides to run away with HS then decides it's too hard and only has TM escape with HS. 

 

YZ is angry because he knows about JK coming and she wants him to spare her senior and TM and it only upsets YZ more. 

 

God. What a makjang bs

 

@dramalover1 Egads!  Egads!  Egads!  Says The Scarlet Pimpernel... Li decides it's too hard to run away with HS and just leaves TM to escape?  Why is Li always deterred by the hard?

3 hours ago, dramalover1 said:

 

That makes no sense. If Quing was spying on Li, why didn't YZ know about Yan Dan thing? Or that someone stole Li's dagger so she wasn't the one who stabbed Min? And why wouldn't YZ know about HS's mission to get YZ's half-brother???? 

 

Qing is a pretty crappy spy. 

@dramalover1 I am in the same thought camp as you - Qing is a terrible spy for all the questions that you ask above.  Why?  So strange.  So bizarre.  Again, I am not smart enough to understand the complex iterations and permutations of this drama.  

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

Thank you to everyone for reading and writing and taking time to pay attention to everyone's raves, rants and musings.  This has been the best forum because we have gone back and forth and shared ideas, thoughts and crowdsourced potential alternative plotlines. 

 

And clearly there are some deep thinkers on this forum and because I did not understand the last 5 episodes of this drama AT ALL, I am not one of them.  But that's what happens when you are a solidly boring and practical person working in the corporate world.  Oy vay.

[Kasmic]

5 hours ago, nna125 said:

YZ stab Li by his sword but Li use the hilt of dagger. Li died.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dramalover1 said:

 

WTH was the point of that stunt on Li's part??????????????????????????????????

 

Oh I havent tried EL. My friends tells me its good but Ive seen snippets of it and somehow (Im so sorry u may disagree)I just cant see the leads chemistry. Esp the guy he seems more robotic hence why I couldnt even watch the Chinese version of She Was Pretty. DD and the lead guy OMG was the worst combination ever it was not only until ZBB came on that I slightly enjoyed it. Still I couldnt finish it esp knowing the ending. 

 

4 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

Is this how Li proves that she loves YZ????????????????????  And this means YZ does not love Li-er?  So confusing.

Im totally WTF!!! Like you all too. Im beyond didappointed. I hate endings like this. I understand her point to use herself to give YZ the pain of loosing someone/something whom he treasures most  and I knew she would do something stupid like that. I guess theyre still sticking to history to show that his always put his ambition of China 1st and will always not trust others. Stupid, stupid poor YZ- Emperor Qin, has to live a life of guilt and loneliness. He scarficed so much for the good of his own people. I guess this proves what a Kings life is like - one of scarfice, loneliness, ruthlessness and paranoia. Not all could achieve this and he did. For whats this drama is worth I kind of glad I saw this side of Emperor Quin. That he isnt as ruthless as history paints him to be. More misunderstood of his actions and that in his lifetime he did had a moment where he did questioned and hesitated on his own ambitions. 

As for Lier, gosh I wish I could say I couldnt care less but from her role's stance I kindof understand her pov. Shes stuck between the love of 2 men, her son and also her people. The only way she felt possible to stop this conflict is her death.... I only wished it was another actress to portray her role as maybe just maybe this show would prove more of its worth. I dont think I can even watch the ending. 

[january1234]

Was it ever an option at ANY point ever  -for Li to do nothing ? (not sleep with JK/ run off to see JK/ get involved with Yan Dan  blah, blah and most importantly , even if she couldn't resist the others, not get involved in this stupid plot to assassinate YZ)?

[nayzau]

2 hours ago, sveta89 said:

RAWS it is the end 

 

all i have to say i am 100% ticked off by the ending 

there is nothing that save this show, not dd face nor bin acting nor their chemistry  

HhAHAHAHAAHHAH WTH with the ending scenes. They looks so cheap, specially the goodbye between YZ and Li'er! This literally make no sense, but they at least could have made the scenes more delicate, glomorous or something like that. It looks really bad. 

[briaes]

@Kasmic

Yup. Hk actor/actresses leaving by the busload to China for more money making opportunities. Really cant blame them. After slaving away for donkey years at their mother station, some dont even get a decent chance to shine. Still, I find most main leads overhyped. Those who stayed behind, the veterans are the ones who can really act.  

 

@nna125

Thanks for the confirmation. Very deserving indeed. Congrats ZBB. 

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv

Omg..  yes that cringe worthy ZBB dancing BTS. I love it. Seems like he's letting it all go after carrying such a huge and heavy burden (read pudding). And that JK actor is just naturally sulky on and off camera. Should have just stayed being a model so he can hone his fish pouting lips skills more

 

 

[briaes]

Wow. Such "tragedy". So Li killed herself to prove her love? Now i must agree with @dramalover1 that she's emotionally abusive to the point of killing herself to traumatise her love? So part 1 was Stockholm syndrome. Let brace ourselves for part 2 - survivor's guilt. 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

6 minutes ago, briaes said:

Wow. Such "tragedy". So Li killed herself to prove her love? Now i must agree with @dramalover1 that she's emotionally abusive to the point of killing herself to traumatise her love? So part 1 was Stockholm syndrome. Let brace ourselves for part 2 - survivor's guilt. 

@briaes I do not understand the ending at all... but YZ has basically lost everyone he cares about.  And he is all alone - well, he proves that he is ruthless because he directly killed the one whom he loved and as the movie, "The Liberty of Liberty Valence" states - "when the legend becomes the fact, you print the legend, not the fact."  No one will ever mess with YZ again after this.  He clearly proved that neither love nor Swan Swordsmanship would ever get him.  And in honor of the late Tom Petty, YZ is "No, I won't back down/There is no easy way out."

32 minutes ago, nayzau said:

HhAHAHAHAAHHAH WTH with the ending scenes. They looks so cheap, specially the goodbye between YZ and Li'er! This literally make no sense, but they at least could have made the scenes more delicate, glomorous or something like that. It looks really bad. 

@nayzau that weird spotlight - I thought that LIza Minelli would come out and start singing Cabaret... was that supposed to be Heaven taking Li-er away?  JK perpetually pouts - can't deal.

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

1 hour ago, january1234 said:

Was it ever an option at ANY point ever  -for Li to do nothing ? (not sleep with JK/ run off to see JK/ get involved with Yan Dan  blah, blah and most importantly , even if she couldn't resist the others, not get involved in this stupid plot to assassinate YZ)?

@january1234 as we all know, as @dramalover1 has correctly pointed out again and again, Li-er is the ultimate in abusive emotional passive aggressiveness.  And at this point, I don't think that I am smart enough to understand Li-er.  I get YZ but Li-er I do not.  And this is "The King's Woman" - ultimately because this may be the only concubine he killed with his personal sword?  Min committed suicide, and so did Lady Chu.  In many monarchy dramas, oftentimes one has to prove his ability to be king by giving up what he loves the most and clearly YZZ did this here unintentionally but he accomplished it.

 

Kudos to ZBB for a great performance.  His fierce king expressions and smirks are priceless.

1 hour ago, Kasmic said:

 

 

Im totally WTF!!! Like you all too. Im beyond didappointed. I hate endings like this. I understand her point to use herself to give YZ the pain of loosing someone/something whom he treasures most  and I knew she would do something stupid like that. I guess theyre still sticking to history to show that his always put his ambition of China 1st and will always not trust others. Stupid, stupid poor YZ- Emperor Qin, has to live a life of guilt and loneliness. He scarficed so much for the good of his own people. I guess this proves what a Kings life is like - one of scarfice, loneliness, ruthlessness and paranoia. Not all could achieve this and he did. For whats this drama is worth I kind of glad I saw this side of Emperor Quin. That he isnt as ruthless as history paints him to be. More misunderstood of his actions and that in his lifetime he did had a moment where he did questioned and hesitated on his own ambitions. 

As for Lier, gosh I wish I could say I couldnt care less but from her role's stance I kindof understand her pov. Shes stuck between the love of 2 men, her son and also her people. The only way she felt possible to stop this conflict is her death.... I only wished it was another actress to portray her role as maybe just maybe this show would prove more of its worth. I dont think I can even watch the ending. 

@Kasmic  I imagine that the real YZ was a man of immense passion and ambition - he survived several assassination and perhaps was born under the right star at the right time that he could unite the 6 kingdoms and create the predecessor to modern day China.  That kind of ambition takes immense sacrifice and so YZ was alone - as many have pointed out, he never selected an empress which ultimately did his dynasty in, because his descendants had no factions protecting them because there was really no Dowager Empress.  YZ may have been fantastic at uniting and ruling over the 6 kingdoms but he failed to understand that everything and everyone has a purpose, including empresses, even if he hated dealing with his mother and the then Grand Dowager Empress.

[nayzau]

13 minutes ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@briaes I do not understand the ending at all... but YZ has basically lost everyone he cares about.  And he is all alone - well, he proves that he is ruthless because he directly killed the one whom he loved and as the movie, "The Liberty of Liberty Valence" states - "when the legend becomes the fact, you print the legend, not the fact."  No one will ever mess with YZ again after this.  He clearly proved that neither love nor Swan Swordsmanship would ever get him.  And in honor of the late Tom Petty, YZ is "No, I won't back down/There is no easy way out."

@nayzau that weird spotlight - I thought that LIza Minelli would come out and start singing Cabaret... was that supposed to be Heaven taking Li-er away?  JK perpetually pouts - can't deal.

I actually think she didn't kill herself on propuse. At last minute she coudn't bear killing YZ because she loves him, but she was really stupid to think that at that point YZ will stop, like for gravity and inertia he couldn't. And yes, that is freaking selfish of herself knowing how traumatized is YZ about killing the ones he loves. @briaes

[briaes]

@rosamundekingsley99_stv

For the life of me, i don't get it either. And i guess we shouldn't try too hard too, remember... we are supposed to be cretins and not question and try to make sense of everything. Lol. Guees, I'm supposed to swallowed it whole and stay ignorant. So emotionally and mentally taxing. Borderline abusive even 

 

I watch raw from eps 43 to 46. My mandarin is not superb but i can still make sense of what's going on. Going to watch the raw eps of 47 & 48. Cant stand the suspense.  

 

But upto now. Here's my take :

 

Li loves most -> YZ, JK, TM? Fill in the blanks ...

YZ loves most -> his kingdom

JK loves most -> himself

HS loves most -> Li 

Lan loves most ->JK 

LZ loves most -> YZ (plus his duty to serve)

Min loves most -> revenge

Chu loves most -> her motherland 

Mengwu loves most -> the battlefield 

Lu buwei loves most -> power & authority

YZ's mom love most -> having fun with men 

Empress Huayang loves most -> her position & the power it gives her

Li Si loves most -> the prime minister position

Zhao gao loves most -> his motherland (on the surface) but really it's his pride

 

Finally Qing er.... gosh she's a spy??? She loves the exhilaration of a spy's job description more than being a mundane palace maid i guess 

 

And this is all I'm supposed to take home from TKW. All else doesn't matter. Sigh.... 

 

[dramalover1]

1 hour ago, nayzau said:

HhAHAHAHAAHHAH WTH with the ending scenes. They looks so cheap, specially the goodbye between YZ and Li'er! This literally make no sense, but they at least could have made the scenes more delicate, glomorous or something like that. It looks really bad. 

 

They probably ran out of money after putting JK in a better clothes to visit YZ in person. 

[shimshimae]

5 minutes ago, dramalover1 said:

 

They probably ran out of money after putting JK in a better clothes to visit YZ in person. 

LOL!

 

I haven't watched the latest episodes but from the comments - my understanding (I could be wrong) is that Li planned to get herself killed by YZ all along. Otherwise, why would she reveal TM his birth secret. This is her frustrating strategy of keeping everyone in the dark about her motives (I think she may have been saying her farewell to JK in her harebrained way) and then pull the I-did-this-for-you victim card with YZ. Poor YZ, no peace for this guy. She now forever took it away. 

[dramalover1]

10 minutes ago, shimshimae said:

LOL!

 

I haven't watched the latest episodes but from the comments - my understanding (I could be wrong) is that Li planned to get herself killed by YZ all along. Otherwise, why would she reveal TM his birth secret. This is her frustrating strategy of keeping everyone in the dark about her motives (I think she may have been saying her farewell to JK in her harebrained way) and then pull the I-did-this-for-you victim card with YZ. Poor YZ, no peace for this guy. She now forever took it away. 

 

I don't care bout Li dying that much because I don't like her.

 

BUT WHY DID THEY KILL LI ZHONG???? I wanted YZ and LZ to be happy together!!!!!!!!

[Kasmic]

13 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

I imagine that the real YZ was a man of immense passion and ambition - he survived several assassination and perhaps was born under the right star at the right time that he could unite the 6 kingdoms and create the predecessor to modern day China.  That kind of ambition takes immense sacrifice and so YZ was alone - as many have pointed out, he never selected an empress which ultimately did his dynasty in, because his descendants had no factions protecting them because there was really no Dowager Empress.  YZ may have been fantastic at uniting and ruling over the 6 kingdoms but he failed to understand that everything and everyone has a purpose, including empresses, even if he hated dealing with his mother and the then Grand Dowager Empress.

Yes for sure Emperor Quin most probably didnt like having a Queen and all those issues following it. I believe this story foretells why. As a child, I was told about a legend of Quin and it remains dearly to me. I dont know if its of any truth but I like this legend and perhaps this was the intial reason that drew me close to this drama yet I was so hestitant becos of DD's acting.  This legend was shown in  a HK drama many many years ago. But again i dont know if it holds any truth or if the writers just twisted it. Anyway the legend was that Emperor Quin did fall in love with a everyday girl (whom I cant remember her name) but she was already married with a child. (Very similar to Lier right?) Emperor Quin rulership killed her father and her people whilst forced into slavery to build the Great Wall. When her father died and her husband captured she cried and the walls of the Great Wall fell. This brought attention to Emperor Quin and he met and fell in love with her. He made her into his concubine by promising that her husband would be free and also protected her from all the palace dangers esp from his other concubines but was never able to receive her love back. In the end, she  couldnt accept  Quin betrayal whom killed her husband and declared war with her people. She commited suicided and jumped off the Great Wall making it crumble again. 

From these 2 dramas we see that Emperor Quin did most likely fell in love. But their love wasnt meant to be and it contributed to his ruthfulness during his reign. 

[Kasmic]

29 minutes ago, dramalover1 said:

 

I don't care bout Li dying that much because I don't like her.

 

BUT WHY DID THEY KILL LI ZHONG???? I wanted YZ and LZ to be happy together!!!!!!!!

Sorry I laughed becos I never thought about the bromance between them kekeke! But in seriousness it just made YZ realise more that his moment of hestitancy can prove fatal to those whom he treasures. LZ death served as a reminder of YZ purpose - yut tong tien ha! (In Cantonese- sorry I tried my best to write the ping yang as closely as possible ) or simply to rule over the 6 nations 

[raziela]

Thank you for all your posts everyone.  So enjoyable reading all the many intelligent, articulate and entertaining posts here whilst the drama ends leaving us confused, frustrated and disappointed.  You have put into words so many of my thoughts and disappointments: the inconsistency, plot confusion, Li's messy characterization, the treatment of YZ-LJ's relationship, what a charismaless limp lettuce Jing Ke is (character and actor). I had such high hopes in the beginning but my overall feeling towards the drama is now basically WTF?   It feels like there were multiple writers and scissor happy editors working on this and no one could quite agree so we ended up with this "pudding" as another poster aptly described it in an earlier post.  I feel cheated because it feels like such a missed opportunity especially as I think some aspects of the drama were very good like ZBB /DD's chemistry, the filming (bad special effects aside), cinematography, fight scenes, costumes, sets, some of the actors, even some of the writing in places but not enough to salvage the lacking aspects.   These last few weeks I'm mainly keeping up via the Drama Panda recaps, all your entertaining posts and watching selected scenes mostly featuring ZBB and now I'm just relieved it's over.  Thanks for trying to help make sense of the ending @eighbcdefg

 

Big thank you to all the wonderful posters who posts the clips, subs, raws, cute BTS. I'm sure I speak for all the visitors to this thread when I say we appreciate your efforts 

 

@Kasmic and @shimshimae : I've seen you and a few other posters wonder why ZBB was dubbed for this drama.  It'a actually this drama's fault he was dubbed!  He had do so much shouting during filming that he damaged his vocal cords and had severe laryngitis so he hadn't recovered in time to dub his lines as he usually does. 

 

Two things thing I am glad for is I have loved reading the posts from all you wonderful people  AND this drama has given my fave Zhang Bin Bin more exposure and new fans to appreciate how talented he is, his handsome looks and awesome personality as seen in the BTS.  So happy for him seeing all the praise from everyone on the thread   Whatever criticisms we have the drama I don't think anyone can deny his talent.  He's done a tremendous job carrying this drama and playing a very heavy character at only 24 years old.  I hope he gets more lead roles going forward and his career keeps getting better and better. 

[raziela]

On 04/10/2017 at 3:08 AM, dramalover1 said:

 

I don't care bout Li dying that much because I don't like her.

 

BUT WHY DID THEY KILL LI ZHONG???? I wanted YZ and LZ to be happy together!!!!!!!!

This!  Why did Li Zhong have to die?  I expected LJ would eventually die so the only thing that saddened me about Li Ji's death were the flashbacks to happier times and ZBB's heartbreaking acting.  Li Zhong was the only person who was always faithful to YZ and who YZ completely trusted.  Now YZ is completely alone not just in his personal life but his public/political life as well. 

 

On 03/10/2017 at 8:48 AM, briaes said:

 

It's supposed to be JK's heroic moment where maybe he can redeem himself from all his sore loser moments that we've been tormented earlier. Sadly, even in this duel he cant precisely nailed the emotions/expressions required of him. I find it strange too that with his towering height, he doesn't command screen presence. He could've used it to his advantage but he just doesnt seem to carry the aura and the charisma of a decent actor.  And not to mention his screen time with ZBB, he just drowns. Cant even hold a candle to ZBB at all. 

 

I used to wonder which is worse - his character role as a whole or the actor playing the role. I can safely say now it's the quintessential combination of both the actor AND the role. Gosh, this boy is really that bad. He's in dire need of acting classes. He made dumb (himself) look dumber (his role). 

 

Agreed. JK was just a flop through and through!  It was so satisfying watching YZ best him in the fight