selenette
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ON GORYEO!WANG YEO AND GORYEO!KIM SHIN
After the revelation of the Grim Reaper's past as a king named Wang Yeo (Ep 13), some reviewers began to pile the blame of the bloody past on the character. They absolved the Goblin from blame.
Personally, I think both Wang Yeo and Kim Shin had their share of blame in their Goryeo past, and each of them had their own advantages and disadvantages when living in the bygone era.
Please click the spoiler boxes if you're interested.
HOW THEY WERE SHAPED: THEIR SOCIAL BACKGROUNDS
A. KIM SHIN
SpoilerI suspect that he had to raise his little sister in a noble but not too affluent family, so Kim Shin was instilled with a strong sense of duty from a young age.
This sense of duty, combined with his presumably low station in life, prevented him from protesting or challenging Wang Yeo's stepbrother's request. In spite of his personal discomfort, he swore to protect the young king and allowed his sister to marry the strange young man.
Despite those disadvantages, there were several advantages in Kim Shin's Goryeo life over Wang Yeo's (despite the latter's status as king):
1. His familial background. Although his nuclear family only consisted of his little sister, they were close.
There must've been many hardships that he had to endure with his sister, as two orphans a harsh era. But the knowledge that he had his beloved sister must've sustained him and helped him to survive.
(EDIT: no parents had ever been mentioned, hence the Kim siblings' kinsfolk who were executed in Ep 1 were most likely their extended family members)
2. In spite of the tough military life he led, the bond he created among fellow soldiers was strong. He found friends among these soldiers, which factored in his success in wartime campaign.
A general who is only respected but not loved would find it hard to rally his people from one exhausting battle to another. So Kim Shin must've been loved as well as respected.
3. His servants loved and were devoted to him, to the point of praying for his salvation after his death. This was another source of his solace.
Based on his grief (Ep 1), the old servant Yoo must've known the Kim siblings personally from up close. So in happier days, he must've helped Kim Shin take care of Kim Sun.
His well-being benefited from these advantages and they shaped Kim Shin as a confident, secure, mentally healthy person. He experienced suffering, but he was able to perceive it as part of his duty.
I daresay Wang Yeo was not so fortunate in that aspect.
B. WANG YEO
SpoilerWang Yeo was born in a royal family, so to outsiders he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Nevertheless, he led a bleak life.
Although he was a king, from what I watch in sageuk and read, many kings exercised little to no power because they were made to be dependent on their advisors, etc.
Wang Yeo was no exception to this. He grew up with no familial love, so he was strongly dependent on the manipulative eunuch as a father surrogate.
Let's see.
1. His parents, brothers, cousins, etc were either estranged or killed, leaving little Wang Yeo practically uncared for, except by the eunuch (who was the murderer of many of those family members).
2. The step brother who died last couldn't express his love for the little boy because he was scared for Wang Yeo's safety.
So, at a formative age when nurture was essential in shaping a child's perception, Wang Yeo had none but that from the devious enuch.
I think Park Joong-hun instilled suspicion, low self-confidence, and strong dependence into Wang Yeo, for YEARS AND YEARS.
These are the results of Park Joong-hun's teachings:
1. As an impressionable teenager, Wang Yeo was scared of making his own decisions. He was either incapable or too confused to differentiate between right and wrong.
2. As an adult he was simply a dead man walking. The majestic adult king in Sunny's vision never existed at all.
With the eunuch's influence hovering in the background, almost all of Wang Yeo's life was spent as a delusional paranoid. He was always suspicious and scared. Nothing and no one, not even the Kim siblings, could convince him otherwise.
MISCOMMUNICATIONS, MISUNDERSTANDINGS: THE PALACE AS PRISON
Spoiler@hushhh posted about the palace being Wang Yeo's prison here:
I agree that the palace was Wang Yeo's panopticon prison cell, because:
1. Goryeo!Wang Yeo felt and was constantly watched.
2. His opinions were dictated by the eunuch.
3. He had neither family, kinsfolk and friends who could approach him privately.
When Present Day!Kim Shin reproached Present Day!Wang Yeo of not summoning him back in Goryeo, he seems to have forgotten that even though both Kim Shin and Kim Sun swore to protect him, a king couldn't interact freely with anyone.
Eventually when it dawned on Wang Yeo that he was only a prisoner in his own palace, the cultural values expected him to endure his guilt. He failed at endurance, too, as was natural for someone with severely poor coping skills.
I'm not saying that suicide was a way out. But I will say that for such a depressed and isolated man to commit suicide, in healthcare perspective it means that he had no mental support.
DIVIDING THE BLAME
A. WANG YEO
SpoilerWas Wang Yeo blameless, just because his upbringing was wrong and he suffered from at least two severe mental disorders?
No. He was still guilty of the following things:
1. He did order the executions of many people, out of his personal insecurities.
2. He should've, in any way he could, try to find help and support to get rid of the eunuch.
That is, before his paranoia and major depression fully kicked in. Because once the disorders beset him, he must've been too overwhelmed to do anything but ruining himself.
3. Even though Kim Shin was far in the battlefields, there were still the loyal palace official and the queen's chief maid who could find a way for the king to reach the general in secret. Wang Yeo should've reached these people.
4. Also, if Wang Yeo's subjects still loved him --including the commoners--, there must've been many more palace insiders who sympathized with his plight and were still loyal to him.
The commoners could easily get the wrong idea that their king was just another tyrant, but if the loyal insiders informed them on the truth, they could perceive it.
5. Wang Yeo was educated in strategy and leadership, among other things. He could've tried and found these loyal people painstakingly. He could've used them as a network of informers to reach Kim Shin in the kingdom borders.
6. He didn't do that, and instead he let the eunuch and his own mental disorders ruined himself, his queen, and eventually Goryeo, too.
B. KIM SHIN
SpoilerWhat about Kim Shin, then?
I'm afraid that, aside from taking lives in battlefield, Kim Shin was guilty of another thing. This guilt is connected with his sense of duty.
EDIT: Concerning "taking lives as sin", this is the drama's stance as expresssed in Ep 1.
1. Because he was too dutiful, he wouldn't break the protocols to protect both the king and his sister. Even though he knew from the very start that the palace was a dangerous place to live in. He did express his regret in this matter (Eps 11 and 12).
2. He also didn't try to reach the remaining loyal palace insiders to ensure the two young people's well-being in his absence.
Present Day!Kim Shin told Present Day!Wang Yeo that the king (should've) known that he was loved. But Goryeo!Wang Yeo was so isolated and was turned into a paranoid, after all.
So if the king didn't even understand that he was loved, was he guilty of not knowing?
3. If only the general had let the king know sooner (that he was loved and supported) by any means necessary, perhaps the king wouldn't be so keen on self-destruction.
4. Because the warrior and his little sister managed to pull through the difficulties of growing up as orphans, he assumed that the king would pull through, too.
But he forgot that since each human being is unique, our coping mechanisms are individually unique, too.
WHERE DO THEY GO FROM HERE
A. WANG YEO
SpoilerGoryeo!Wang Yeo was truly guilty of "killing and killing" , as Present Day!Kim Shin puts it. But as @bebebisous33 explained here:
...now the former king has a chance to redeem himself by actively protecting Sunny and Eun-tak in Kim Shin's absence.
I believe he will protect them at all costs, in spite of the injunction and threats of harsher future punishments from Reaperdom Bureaucracy.
Here are the reasons.
1. In his current mindset, he was the only guilty party in the past (he refused to lay the blame on Park Joong-hun at all, to the very end. )
2. Present Day!Kim Shin's anger about the king's suicide (and death wish) has stopped Wang Yeo from taking that option again.
Additionally, when Goryeo!Wang Yeo did nothing to find love and be loved, Present Day!Wang Yeo could change his path by fighting hard to love and to earn love.
All I can say is I hope Present Day!Wang Yeo wouldn't see redemption as a way to gradually erase his existence out of unquenchable guilt, like @jeijei (jokingly?) suggested here.
B. KIM SHIN
SpoilerI suspect he will be revived somehow in the upcoming episodes, so I can only hope that he will not revisit his scars from the past enmity against Goryeo!Wang Yeo. Or if he does, I hope to see it fully resolved at the end of the drama.
EDIT: By saying this, I don't mean to say that Revived!Kim Shin has to be the one who forgives immediately. But he has to remember that while he himself has changed, so has Present Day!Wang Yeo.
Also, I hope Revived!Kim Shin will see Present Day!Wang Yeo as a treasured brother and best friend, not only someone whom he has to protect and serve out of his sense of duty.
The last time he parted from Present Day!Wang Yeo, Present Day!Kim Shin seemed to relapse into his warrior mode, abandoning all the traces of the best friend he has come to be for the former king.
Last but not least, I wish to see the two best friends reunited. Preferably with some inside jokes now and then about the time when they were a general and a king.
Dedicated to
Dear @shynaz, in the hope that she will be more forgiving on Wang Yeo, who is, after all, the other half of the legendary bromance that she loves.
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And some other kind souls in the spoiler box (sorry, this post is too wordy)
SpoilerDear @nearsea, whose questions regarding the Goblin and the Grim Reaper kept me up at night for 2 days.
Dear @gamshe ,with whom I talk a lot about WangSun.
Dear @winterdew who understands Wang Yeo and Lee Dong-wook better than me
Dear @stargazer187 , and @Nymeria289, whose dashed hopes for happy ending for WangSun I still share
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37 minutes ago, makeuptemple said:
too much for everyone...... GRP is on probation and he is still GRP he said to that Eunuch yesterday you are not responding a GRP's call.
@makeuptemple Hi! (I love your username, btw. Is "makeup" there the makeup we put on? Sorry for my curiosity). That last scene confuses me, actually. Is Wang Yeo back on Reaper duty, or does he simply rush to the scene because of Eun-tak's death note? Judging from his attire, he's on duty... but we never see his getting a clearance. Or is this a narrative jump?
Asking @winterdew and @MaysoonD to clarify too...
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6 hours ago, carolinedl said:
I did! It was great indeed! That is how I caught the "That's right." You could also hear the ashes being formed out of KS's dying body... I swear I heard that!!
@LyraYoo @carolinedl I always watch this drama with my headset on, from Ep 1-13. Listening to the beautiful sounds so clearly ehances my mood in watching it.
In Ep 13, when Kim Shin meets Wang Yeo and tells the latter that everybody in Goryeo loved their king, you can hear birds chirping in the background. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but the general effect was very healing. It signifies a new beginning.
I fell in love with the show during Ep 1 when I listened to the opening with the "Never Far Away" song. Through a headset the song feels hauntingly beautiful, at 6 PM and in a lonely place (where I usually recap), it's chilling. Like it's half a bad omen, half a lover's longing.
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@maryofbethany Thank you so much for recapping and for sympathizing with the lack of Sunny scenes. I guess tvN wants to bundle all the good stuff in the DVD (which I could never afford if the payment is by credit card only, and if the region coding is limited....but I digress). I missed the special ep but I still want to see the NGs of the main casts at least.
Thanks, @LyraYoo, some time before this amazing show ends we will talk about the anatomy of the scenes (Have you watched that NYTimes series, "Anatomy of A Scene", where directors talk about filming a particular scene in their films?). I think since we and @staygold or any other kind souls here are interested in cinematography, we should definitely talk more!
Also many thanks to @jeijei and @naritul for highlighting the juicy bits of the special episode.
If I missed anyone, it is unintentional. I thank you, too!
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13 minutes ago, zagigirl said:
None beautiful memories..but not just in this ep...did we saw any so far?..he might of have with his queen if it wasn't for that eunuch
At least our GR felt good a bit that he was a happy memory for Sunny and that she didn't forget him... despite their unhappy ending
So...you r not rushing to buy a fuchsia lipstick???
...but its so trendy these days @zagigirl The fact that she doesn't forget him makes these two even sadder to watch.
Btw would you believe it... I already have one lipstick in that color. From R*vlon. I used to love that color like crazy, before...you know.
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ON MEMORY ERASURE
So we all know Wang Yeo promised to erase Eun-tak's memories once Kim Shin died.
However.
1. Will his memory erasure work on Eun-tak, if she really treasures those memories with Kim Shin? Sunny is immune to the erasure because of this exact reason: she treasures the memories of Wang Yeo.
2. Will it work because Eun-tak is no longer a Goblin bride? That is to say, will she have no supernatural immunity at all?
Conjectures here:
1. Is Sunny an exception to memory erasure because she's Wang Yeo's soulmate...or no, is it because she now remembers her past life? He could erase her memories before, but not again?
2. Is Wang Yeo's memory erasure power diminishing? He was reprimanded by the higher ups because of the power abuse.
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@Sunset90 Thanks for the post on suicide and bloodline. It injects a deeper cultural (and religious) perspective on the weights of Kim Shin's and Wang Yeo's sins. It isn't only the bloodshed that counts as sin, but also the reasons behind the bloodshed, as you explained.
God we talk about heavy stuff in this thread. I miss the days when we could just joke, back in those times. Here, the joke is almost always mixed with the angst. Or maybe it's just my drama queen self.
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27 minutes ago, zagigirl said:
...you forgot GR got even internal affairs on his back as well...that was such a great detail in this story
@zagigirl Yeah I forgot! And the higher ups just gave Wang Yeo his painful memories, like a stab to the heart. I mean we don't see any of his beautiful memories in Ep 13. So to him, all he had ever done was to cause pain and harm on others.
And we can see him losing sleep and obsessing over the ring and the scroll, because they were ties to those painful memories.
In his right mind, he knew he shouldn't be thinking of returning the ring to Sunny or even taking a look at the scroll. But I guess he was too overwhelmed by those memories to even try to stop himself.
Gah I'm crying again. Fuchsia in Rage did this to me!!
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@rrmski Thank you so much for the gifs. Like Eun-tak, Sunny too had always been alone. They're both strong girls.
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1 hour ago, zagigirl said:
A few hours back i was sad...now i'm pis*ed
King was young, foolish and ignorant...he let that evil man to determine his destiny...but himself suffered as a king years later for his naivety and stupidity...as GR hundreds of years later
KS/GB lost everything..was tormented for hundreds of years
ET, innocent child suffered all her life like hell
...but that evil man, who misslead young king, had his fingers in so many deaths, has been provocing another evil things and deaths over the centuries...just quietly vanishes just like that..just like with slow wind blow????
...not enough punishment if you ask me ...last impression...but had to let it out first
...to be continued
@zagigirl Hello! We definitely need to talk more about Wang Yeo, but for now..
I AGREE WITH YOU. WHOLE HEARTEDLY.
I mean come on. Wang Yeo got, what ...madness, 600 years as wandering ghost or in hell, plus 300 years of social work as Reaper? Kim Shin got 900 years and more with a bloody sword lodged in his chest, always in painful remembrance of anything? Eun-tak lost everything and everyone, poor girl didn't even had a home for years! Sunny is fated to be alone no matter how many times she lives, and even though she died a super sad, violent death as Kim Sun?
But that thing with YSL Fuchsia in Rage on his lips, got only an exorcism and a slick stabbing. A big no no.
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@rrmski Greetings...
Do you have a crying gif of Sunny from Ep 13 too? Because I think @gamshe and myself can do with a little more pain... I mean consolation.
And hello, @rei-ra it's nice to meet you here. I think Sunny knows that Wang Yeo knows? Or perhaps she thinks that he regains his memories at the same time that she did? Maybe from her conversation with a very tense Kim Shin after the almost-brawl at the temple. Kim Shin didn't tell her anything about Wang Yeo not remembering, either.
But I do love the idea that Sunny tries to shield Wang Yeo from the brunt of their painful past. It sounds angsty, but is so self-sacrificing, which is in character for a reincarnation of Kim Sun.
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@vangsweetie637 You're not alone in wanting harsher punishment for the eunuch. I want to savor his demise properly with a good, ETERNALLY PAINFUL kick at his backside from the Wang Yeo/Kim Shin combo!
Oh my, we're totally needing that fire extinguisher from last time. We need to calm down.
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26 minutes ago, gamshe said:
@selenette Yess I am a fan! I actually have been going crazy after the latest episode, but yeah that is another topic.
I think since I joined here later I didn't see those posts.
I got very sad when I realized that Kim Shin is jealous(?) of GR in a way. Like when he said ''You protect that fool in this life too,'' and ''The deity is still on your side.'' But as you said, both of them has been through awful things and this is a chance for them to live the life they never could before. But I think Sunny doesn't do as she says either.... When she decided to ''break up'' with GR, it was because she is the sister of the traitor...I wish she would still be insistent in their relationship. But again, she is also very heartbroken so it is hard to expect things like this right away... Ah I don't know, I am just really sad.
@gamshe You know what, I haven't even watched Sherlock S4. The sheer angst in people's comments have been keeping me away. Maybe later after Goblin...
EDIT: @emilydark Hello! Your tag isn't working, so I'm sorry I missed that post. I still see it as jealousy, especially in the sentence that gamshe posted.
That right there, the sentence that Kim Shin said, that was jealousy and bitterness. He feels that he wasn't trusted, and in the end he was betrayed. He knows that the king was manipulated by the eunuch, but he also feels that his sister chooses Wang Yeo no matter what. Wang Yeo, on the other hand, feels isolated and alone, that nobody loves him.
Kim Shin and Wang Yeo feel that each is more loved than the other. Each believes that he suffers more than the other, without a full, complete idea of the extent of the suffering that the other has to endure.
They have to move on, otherwise they would only be dealt with the losing cards again.
Sunny has to practice what she preaches! If she really adheres to her own belief, she will give Wang Yeo the second chance, or at least challenge herself to start anew with him. After all, he's no longer the same man she knew, and neither is she the same woman he knew. There's still so much they can explore once everything is properly addressed.
*and by the word "explore" my mind is going haywire with pervy, no, creative thoughts*
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@gamshe Hello there fellow Sherlock fan! We talked and talked here a couple of times but I never knew you love the show too!!
I'm not shipping Johnlock as a couple, but I do love their bromance and I can see that the production team try to emulate the same bromance vibes here, as you pointed it out.
I think the saddest part of Kim Shin and Wang Yeo's friendship fallout is the fact that each of them feels that one suffers more than the other (despite Wang Yeo's insistence that he is the one to blame, deep inside he still feels that he is wronged, too). This kind of perspective isn't healthy at all and will never be the road to true forgiveness. They need to acknowledge that each of them had their share in the terrible past conflict, from a series of misunderstandings and miscommunications.
Wang Yeo has to work hard in order to redeem himself, not only in his Grim Reaper capacity but also outside of it. Kim Shin, once he returns (because he WILL) has to learn that he isnt the only one suffering from Park Joong-hun's crimes.
And then, after all is said and done, they have to let go of the past. If they can learn anything from Sunny, is that the past is an integral part of their lives, but it should not dictate them in the present.
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@bebebisous33 I think we will see the butterfly effect next week, in the three remaining episodes! We will see if human will, sheer determination, will cause tempest in the heavens.
@carolinedl Hello! I found the butterfly effect term from Chaos Theory! Glad to meet someone who's also into philosophy (you're French, right? I've heard from a senior colleague at my uni how your national curriculum drills philosophy...it's amazing) I think Schopenhauer, too, agreed with Sartre that humans are the ones who can change their own fate!
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8 hours ago, salz said:
Oh they give his memory back for breaking rules? Lol
He should have break rules much earlier
...
Emotionally exhausting ep of LDW but he brilliant actor
@salz Hi! I'm sorry I had to cut your post as I replied. I've been thinking about this, too. Imho they only give Wang Yeo his painful memories, there is no indication so far that he remembers the beautiful ones.
They make the remembrances so unbearable that Wang Yeo seems to be losing sleep and is mostly focused on those memories,or on mementos related to them--e.g. the ring and the scroll. Imho Wang Yeo is only functional because he's no longer human...otherwise the anguish will kill him twice.
And yes, it was an emotionally exhausting episode for Lee Dong-wook!
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@supergal99 Hmm yes, at least we hear that bittersweet "Goodbye, Your Majesty" and see how much he loves her both in the past and in the present?
Also, 3 episodes hopefully with a development regarding their relationship and where they're headed...
EDIT;
@staygold I love frames, they give us the impression that we take a look at a character's very personal, treasured moment (in both Wang Yeo's and the original Kim Sun's scenes that you posted), or trapped, confined sort of feeling (the WangSun scene). The traffic was bustling outside, the city lights were lit on, but in the restaurant it was dark and still.
@LyraYoo Yes, the bridge and its two open ends (yet another way to show that their two worlds are apart?), also...only in their second meeting in Ep 5 they met other people, their other scenes at the bridge feel so lonely.
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40 minutes ago, LyraYoo said:
I have my wine tonight , and marshmallows and cheesburger.
So far the best episode .
@LyraYoo I liverecapped with an empty stomach. Will rewatch tomorrow when my energy is restored...
Btw I really love your post about cinematography of Ep 9 (Sunny grabbing Wang Yeo's hand). To think of it, their scenes have this confined, restricted feel about them. Their two worlds that can't be merged?
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7 minutes ago, jeijei said:
Are you still emotionally alive?~ Heol the episode today.
Did he leave behind something stained with blood? Perhaps ET can pray hard and he'll come back. Or GR can forge a deal with the boss. Wager his un-life?
Wager whaaat? No, no Kim Eun-sook nim, @jeijei is just joking. Please pretend you never read our comments, you already fill Wang Yeo's head with painful memories as once posted here, we don't need more pain, no thanks.
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13 minutes ago, blademan said:
So....what am I supposed to be upset about essentially??
Kim Shin dying at the end?
OR
Kim Shin and Grim Reaper's breakup??
OR
Grim Reaper and Sunny's farewell???
TELL ME!!!
Since we're all masochists here, what about all three, hmm? And salt our wounds while we're at it?
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7 minutes ago, shynaz said:
forum. is jammed..i cannot read u. here..what happen?
Let me just say, @shynaz, THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS NOW OFFICIALLY DEAD, SALTED, AND BURIED.
P.S. My stream died on me just when the scene reached its saddest point. Sorry, guys
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Wang Yeo came to the helipad, and stopped the eunuch from doing further harm.
He calls the Eunuch's name out loud "PARK JOONG-HUN!". This time his voice is so different, it's full of authority.
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...but its so trendy these days 
...last impression...but had to let it out first
I think since I joined here later I didn't see those posts.
[Drama 2016-2017] Guardian: The Lonely and Great Goblin 도깨비
in k-dramas & movies
Posted · Edited by selenette
@makeuptemple Nice one! I think "Don't look for death, death will find you" could also be the slogan on the business card (since he totally thinks he looks cool in saying that).
