[Drama 2013/2014] ♚ Empress Ki (기황후) ♚

[churasan]

The more posts I read in this forum, the more I start analyzing about Empress Ki...  I just can't stay away this week!

Recently, I started thinking about the drama Jamyungo (another saguek that I liked) and remembered one ending that may apply to Empress Ki.  In that drama there was the queen who had a blood daughter that she was separated from at birth and her adopted daughter she raised.  When the queen reunited with her blood daughter, her adopted daughter got jealous and always asked her mother if they were both dying and could only save one of them, which daughter would the queen save?  At the end of the drama, the queen saved her blood daughter, but chose to die alongside her adopted daughter (when her adopted daughter was executed).

Anyways... I have a feeling that SN is like that queen.  I think SN will do everything in her power to help WY regain his throne and become a "powerful" king once again.  She will do whatever it takes to make sure he stays alive and has the opportunity to make Goryeo stronger.  But even though she loves him and does all this for WY, in the end, she will ultimately chose to die besides TH (rather than going back to WY after Yuan loses power).

I have a feeling that SN is going to use TH for her revenge plan (she's going to marry him to gain more power). And maybe the audience will not blame her so much because he does owe her a debt for indirectly causing the death of her father. However, I think in the end she will eventually forgive him since she knows she hurt him by using him for revenge and that she took advantage of his affections for her.  I have a feeling she will be sorry because she knows TH lived a lonely life because he could never truly receive all of her love.  She will realize how much he's sacraficed for her and won't let him be alone anymore, even in death.

This idea could be way off... just thought I'd share since there have been comparisons to other dramas (i.e. WHIB) about potential endings.

[stclaus]

I just hope they don't leave us with an open ending or a 400yrs later ending...

[wolanah]

I decided to make some gif, because I love the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMxT_HYeXs, enjoy

 

[Guest [Deleted User]]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[sally_b]

@tessieroo - RE: "I'm betting anything that TN had that Royal doctor killed so he won't tell anyone she's not really pregnant and that she's infertile."
(nods head) OH YEAH. I was thinking to myself - "Lie, dude, LIE." "Even if your magical-ancient-wrist-doctor ways tell you she's infertile, Jimney-Cricket! don't tell her she can NEVER have a baby. Tell her that her pulse is TOO powerful for her body to contain another life (allow in), that she has to become completely mellow in order to get pregnant in the future." 
Hope he has his affairs in order...because he's got inside info on the ET Clan which means he'll be gone in 3...2....1.... ~poof~

[Guest Ding Lin]

@Churasan

Thank you for your analysis. You think you are right!
I am looking forward to Episode 23 since we will a transforming SN.  I guess her heart was dead after seeing so many deaths and the loss of her child.  She probably lost the desire to persuade personal happiness since there is always a monster around (i.s. Yuan) to take it away.  The only way to change it to gain power.  As for WY, I guess she probably felt guilty for losing the baby and did not know how to face him. It could be another reason that she chose to stay in Yuan.   

This drama is so tragic!! SNIFF!

[Guest JOSIEvang]

OH MY GOSH. episode 22.... I will totally HATE this drama if she loses Wang Yoo Jr. OH MY GOSH. Why did everything just go so wrong? URGHHHHH!!! 30 more damn episodes we should've known!!!!!Oh my gosh when is the next monday? 

[pegster]

I've been contemplating about whether or not to post about this.
I've been backtracking and catching up on some of the comments in this thread (getting bored at work, it's quiet Friday), and I'm seeing a lot of comments from people saying how they think TH is such a pitiful character, and what a tragic life he has.
Sorry to say, but if we're talking about tragic characters (lead wise), TH is not the most tragic of the 3, at most he comes in second.  SN wins it being the most tragic/pitiful IMO (up till now).  If we're including other primary characters, then please, don't forget LP.
Here's is my rank of who is the most tragic/pitiful character (of the leads):
** Don't expand the spoiler tags if you don't want to read a long post, I mean a LOOOONG post **
#1 - SN

Had a hard childhood growing up with her mother alone, didn't know who her father was.  I'm sure we all agree that a single woman bringing up a child is hard in those timesWas captured and sent to be a tribute woman/slave at a young ageWhile trying to escape her fate of becoming a slave, she watches her mother die right before her eyes trying to save herFinds out the man who saved her from the streets was actually also responsible for her capture and her mother's deathHas to grow up hiding her true gender to avoid being captured as a slave againGrow up all her life plotting how to avenge her mother's deathFinally find her father, only to watch him suffer and die right before her eyesGet betrayed by the person who she risked her life savingOnce again meets her fate of being sent to Yuan as a tribute womanAlmost get raped by the man who killed her motherForced to serve the man who betrayed her, and adhere to all of his ridiculous and outrageous demandsUsed as an agent to handle the Empress' dirty deeds (poison LP to have her miscarry her child)Tortured by DKPossibly suppressing her growing affections for the man she can't love (TH)Separated from the man she loves, not knowing she was pregnantLive in hiding from DK et al during her pregnancy to keep herself, and her unborn child safeWatch the people who tried to save her die before her eyes, especially have to watch LP get killed with a full term child in herSuffer the pain of watching another mother like figure die before her eyes trying to save herRunning away for her life while 7 months pregnantGive birth pre-maturely on her own out in the wildHave her child taken away from herThe list goes on as the drama continues....With SN, her life was was full of hardships ever since she was a child, but she tried to overcome all of them all her own.  She tries to make her life better for herself, but it seems like fate just has a load of crap waiting for her from every corner she turns.  
She never really had anyone around her who she can depend on.  When she finally finds the man she loves, WY, they end up separating due to various reasons.
You can argue that SN had control over the choices that she made through out her life as well.  She didn't have to stay under WG's roof once she found out he was responsible for her mother's death, but then what would she do?  Grow up on the streets and beg for food?
All of her choices were somewhat either directly or indirectly influenced by the choices made by other people.
At least she took her time to properly plan out her revenge plot on WG, and she succeeded.
When she found her father, all she wanted to do was silently stay by his side, then boom! TH comes along, and not only that, WY gives her the mission to protect him, and puts the burden of keeping him alive to keep Goryeo safe.
When she first got the palace, she wanted to revenge, she gave up on that plan because she didn't want to bring harm to all the other Goryeo people in the place.
When she was about to just settle and live her life as a musari in the palace, DS decides to bring her into her scheme to get rid of LP and the unborn child.  This triggers her plan to scheme back against DS, now again putting herself in a hot spot.
The TH decides to bring her to his side, and this creates more conflict between her and DS.  
When TH decided to finally stand up against ET (again, it's not a bad/wrong choice), and WY wants to take down ET to get back his throne, being the type of person she is, she gets herself involved to help with the plan, once again putting herself into danger.
I guess only those who can overcome great sufferings can achieve great success.
#2 - TH

With TH, I'm sure he had a good childhood.  Even though his father was a powerless emperor, it seems like he was loved and care for by his parents.  It was only after his father died that his sufferings started.
Please don't tell he TH is still only a teen growing up now, based on his age as outlined in history.  Clearly he's a full grown man, and never once did he appear as a child, though he acts like one.
For TH, IMO some of his hardships in life are due to the choices he has made.
Yes, he was sent to exiled and targeted to be killed.  During his journey to Goryeo, you can see that he did have a somewhat loyal eunuch who was willing to disguise as him to help him escape, regardless of whether the eunuch did it out of loyalty or fear, he had someone die in his place.  Tutor Jang was always trying to help him within his powers.
During his escape from the island back to Goryeo, he had SN by his side always protecting him, again, regardless of her true intentions, if she hadn't have saved him, he would be dead.
What I'm trying to point out here is although he seemed to have been 'alone' all along, but really he's not.  He's had people around him, maybe not powerful people who can truly protect him, but he had people around him.  Now he has Golta, and I want to say he has LP because even with the few scenes that they have together, I can see she does care for him.
When he returned back to Yuan to become emperor, he easily could have continued his life being controlled by ET.  I'm sure if ET sees him as someone he can easily control, he wouldn't want to kill him that soon.  Now that's not saying what he's doing, trying to to revenge his father's death, and taking back the power he rightfully should have as an emperor is wrong, what I'm saying is this is a choice made.  TH chose to plan a revolt against ET, and to side with ED to do this.
Is his life really that bad being controlled by ET?  He is the emperor after all, inside the palace walls, he can do whatever he wants, live in luxury and not worry about the necessities of living.

#3 - WY


I'm can't imagine him having a rough childhood considering that he was the crown prince, and had all these loyal subjects around him and taking care of him.  Bang has been with him since he was a kid.  It also looked like he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do.
It's not as if he didn't know about the Yuan trying to control Goryeo on his life, is not secret that Goryeo is not strong enough to stand up against Yuan.  Why in the world he he blatantly just go against the Yuan with no regards for the possible consequences?
Just like how he had secretly planned out how to take down WG (with SN's help), he could have done the exact same thing with Yuan.
Same situation with TH, WY chose to act the way he did, no one forced him to. 
Sure he can't be with the woman he loves, maybe won't even know about his child, or even ever get to see his child, but this is partly because of his ambition to get his throne back.
He easily could have said, you know what, my dad's the king, I'm here with the woman I love, I'll just settle for a normal life, forget about all this political struggle.
Again, there is nothing wrong with him being a noble man, putting his people first, and trying to make the life of his citizens better in his own way, but it is a choice he made.

I can't get myself to classify him as a tragic/pitiful character.  For WY, it sounds bad, but the way I see it, he put himself in his current situation.

Outside of the leads, the first person that comes to my mind as being the most tragic/pitiful is Lady Park.  How much more tragic a life can you have?

First she's sent away from her home to be a slave in Yuan.

Then she's forced to be a baby making machine for a man who doesn't even care for her, then she gets killed before she can even give birth.  Even after she's attacked/on the verge of dying, no one really shows much concern for her.
It looks like she might also be an orphan, as when all the musaris were giving SN letters to bring back home for them, she didn't have anything to give to SN.
I get the feeling that LP is so willing to help SN partly because she envies SN, not in a bad way.
You can think that LP wants SN to fulfil the life that she's not able to have.  Find a man who she loves and loves her back, have a child with this man.
I got that feeling from the scene where she was talking to SN and saying how she WY would be happy to know that SN's pregnant.  This is something that she never felt for herself.  Really it seems like the only person truly happy about her being pregnant is ED.
The only reason why ED is happy about her pregnancy is likely due to the fact that ED now has a pawn of her own to go against ET.  It wouldn't be surprising if ED had planned to do the same thing with this baby as ET would've done with DS' baby if she was to have one, use the child to replace TH.

Ok, that's it for now, I'm exhausted from all this typing.  Ah....STRESS!!!!

[rinchan76]

I knew that MBC was screwing with me when they put out a preview without SN and later, after an initial written preview they put up another one. 
After reading that preview, it made me imagine a hundred scenarios, one of which was mentioned by @minnie0103. Since LP was headed towards the temple when she started her journey out the palace, and SN mentioned she would meet Bang and Bulhwa north of the temple, so the temple shouldn't be too far away. 
The only thing is they were headed towards the temple ED was staying in, so I wonder, how far is that temple from the temple TN is staying in? 
Since the preview seems to emphasize that it was a nuns baby, I really hope that is the case. I recall it being mentioned that the historical TN had a child but it died young. I know that the writers are not strictly following history, but there is that option that it is the nun child she will be taking care of and she will not be raising baby wy. However it is possible that the nun's baby dies early too, and she somehow gets her hand on SN's baby. For example YBS, for whatever reason, brings the baby in.  
 It is, however hard for me to envision YBS bringing in only the baby. It is possible that he would try to capture SN alive (because he would want to torture her), and the baby would be brought in tow. Although SN being brought back  in to the palace with the baby may pose a problem to her becoming empress, I guess if TH claims the baby as his own, her life might be spared and she will get that concubine title. (*sigh* if only things were that simple.)
I am curious how that cliff looks like, though. It isn't SN's first time going off a cliff. Since the massacre in ep 22 was reminiscent of the tribute killings in ep 1, I wouldn't rule out SN tumbling down the cliff, baby in arm, kind of like what happened with her mom, in their last moments together. It is then that YBS can look for the body, and since there is no sign of it, they can say that SN is dead. 
Hopefully the longer preview will be out on Sunday and we can get better details, or better yet Monday can come tomorrow   )

[chrissydiva]

OH MY GOSH. episode 22.... I will totally HATE this drama if she loses Wang Yoo Jr. OH MY GOSH. 

Why did everything just go so wrong? URGHHHHH!!! 30 more damn episodes we should've known!!!!!

Oh my gosh when is the next monday? 

It's not Wang Yoo Jr. It's Hercules! ) That child went through the craziest thing in his mother's womb from her fighting, bleeding, falling on her belly, rolling down mountains, labor in a cave and don't know what else. The child surviving all of this is a demi god lol

And how the heck did she keep that hairpin on her head after all that rolling down? )

I know she wasn't wearing it during Ninja Mission so it must have been inside her clothes then.

[Guest Ding Lin]

@ Pegster...... 
I like your ranking idea !  

I would like to say something about WY.  I thought the life of WY was pretty tragic.  He really did not have much in his life in the end.  Every time, he had to fight very hard for every thing. However, those things were taken away from him (like his temporal victory and SN).   This is a tragic life to be the king of a small country like Goryeo -- very powerless and sad! 
I guess many of you are from western countries and may not understand how it feels to be a citizen or king from a small neighboring country of a big nation, like Yuan.  Let me share my experience.  I am from Taiwan, where China has been consistently claiming to be a province of China. Many aspects of our lives are deeply affected.  It sucked. I feel angry, offended, humiliated, and sad, but extremely powerless.  There is not much we can do since China is a powerful and rather rich country.  Therefore, some aspects of Empress Ki  are very true to me.  I was crying with WY when he protested TH saying that Goryeo was a  province of Yuan!!  It is difficult to describe the deep sorrow that I feel!  
I am sorry for the long and rather personal post, but I would like to give you some insights.  For me, WY is doing what he has to do as a king of a powerless country.  And, I will see his action is out of the love for his people and country (Like his decision to release those tribute girls 15 years old).  WY may look like a cold-blooded political monster to some, but I do see a king with a loving heart towards his people and the woman he loves.  

[vu_hoa1983]

pegster said:
#3 - WY

I can't get myself to classify him as a tragic/pitiful character.  For WY, it sounds bad, but the way I see it, he put himself in his current situation.

I'm can't imagine him having a rough childhood considering that he was the crown prince, and had all these loyal subjects around him and taking care of him.  Bang has been with him since he was a kid.  It also looked like he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do.
It's not as if he didn't know about the Yuan trying to control Goryeo on his life, is not secret that Goryeo is not strong enough to stand up against Yuan.  Why in the world he he blatantly just go against the Yuan with no regards for the possible consequences?
Just like how he had secretly planned out how to take down WG (with SN's help), he could have done the exact same thing with Yuan.
Same situation with TH, WY chose to act the way he did, no one forced him to. 
Sure he can't be with the woman he loves, maybe won't even know about his child, or even ever get to see his child, but this is partly because of his ambition to get his throne back.
He easily could have said, you know what, my dad's the king, I'm here with the woman I love, I'll just settle for a normal life, forget about all this political struggle.
Again, there is nothing wrong with him being a noble man, putting his people first, and trying to make the life of his citizens better in his own way, but it is a choice he made.

[ChelseaS]

@pegster Yes I have read your long post.

Just my two cents:

The two royals really lived different lives, and though we have only seen glimpses of it.

For WY, being powerless since childhood is a weakness, yes. Being powerless to defend his country made him strive at his young age to do all he can for his people. However, his childhood also gave him the freedom to go out there, get to know his people, and eventually learn the plight of the common folk. Didn't we see at the beginning of this drama that WY was out on the streets, pretending he is just a lowly civil servant? He even had 'gang friends' surrounding him. Yes, he is only is ruling a small country, and yes, there was the big bad wolf Yuan out there to take their small country. But I don't think he became wise simply because he was educated, or that he can read and write. He became wise because of the fact that he was able to out there and see and maybe experience the lives of the people. For me, he is pitiful because he has so much to offer and give to his people, but he is unable to do so. He is in the middle of this power struggle between his small country and the big bad bully, Yuan.

For TH, @vu_hoa1983 pointed out that he only enjoys the luxuries of life and is not even able to read. Didn't we find out that he was prevented from reading by ET? His father was a puppet, at the beginning of his life, all he had to do was be a mere puppet. We didn't see TH's childhood, so we never knew if there were people courageous enough to defy ET by teaching TH to read, or even let him have a normal childhood.

Remember the scene where TH and SN went horse backriding on the beach? That is as much freedom as someone like him can get. And look how happy he was when he was able to get out of the palace. Maybe we think that he must not be that pitiful because he enjoys riches, and luxury and he does not need to do anything, but, isn't it also pitiful to live a caged life, and have no friends and only own material things? Isn't it also very pitiful to have no freedom to enjoy anything or freedom to establish bonds with people?

So I say that both their lives can be considered pitiful, but it different ways.

[vu_hoa1983]

ChelseaS said:
For TH, @vu_hoa1983 pointed out that he only enjoys the luxuries of life and is not even able to read. Didn't we find out that he was prevented from reading by ET? His father was a puppet, at the beginning of his life, all he had to do was be a mere puppet. We didn't see TH's childhood, so we never knew if there were people courageous enough to defy ET by teaching TH to read, or even let him have a normal childhood.

Remember the scene where TH and SN went horse backriding on the beach? That is as much freedom as someone like him can get. And look how happy he was when he was able to get out of the palace. He must not be that pitiful because he enjoys riches, and luxury and he does not need to do anything, But, isn't it also pitiful to live a caged life, and have no friends and only own material things? Isn't it also very pitiful to have no freedom to enjoy anything or freedom to establish bonds with people?

[pegster]

@Ding Lin, @vu_hoa1983: I just want to clarify, my ranking of tragic characters post was not intended to condone or praise either WY or TH's actions/choices.
What I'm trying to say is that WY choose to take the harder path.  For example, during when he tried to save all those tribute women by freeing them, the act itself was noble, and intended to do good, but really, the results were he complete opposite. This due to his rash decision, without thinking through the possible consequences.
There's no doubt that WY is a noble man, and in many people's eyes, he's a perfect leader...but remember that conversation WG had with WY at this throne.  It was somewhere along the lines of 'Your constant fight against the Yuan is just going to bring more harm to the citizens, is what you're doing really helping the people, or is it helping you to achieve your ideal world?' (Sorry, if this is not completely right, it's just based on my memory, and I didn't bother to re-watch).
There are many roads that can be taken to reach the end, if WY chooses the road that he feels is the best path for him, great.  But look at how many dead bodies are paved along that road.
Like I said before, I don't believe any great leader reaches his position without giving up the lives of innocent people, so I have no problem with what WY has done.  It's a matter of his choice.
Just like when he tried to over thrown ET, he underestimated ET's powers, and overestimated his own intelligence.  Now this is the one thing that bothers me about WY, IMO, I see him as being arrogant at times.  I think if he had acted with more modesty in front of his enemies, he would have easier time winning his war.
Like I said, he made life harder because he chose to do everything in the open. He did such a great job planning his plot against WG, he could do the same thing with Yuan/ET.  He must have done something to alert ET that he was someone who can't be trusted on the Goryeo throne to have increased ET's mission to get rid of Goryeo.
As with TH, like I said he's always acted like a child, and is only now that he's started to mature.  Again, he chose to go up against ET without thinking it through.  After he had failed, he repented, and realized that his actions were too rash.  Nothing wrong with his choice to do what he did, just that he didn't make the best choice at that time IMO.
Again, he could've just done nothing, and live his life as a puppet for as long as ET lets him live, but he's decided now that he wants to get back the power he should rightfully have as emperor of Yuan.
Like someone said, the difference between WY and TH's struggle for power is that, right now, WY wants to get his power back for his people.  TH wants to get his power back for himself, and the people he cares about, SN.  You can't really say either is right or wrong, just they both have different priorities.


@ChelseaS Thank you for reading my extended post  Just as I was starting to miss my fabily 

I'm going to end my discussion on this topic here as I'm getting a feeling that it may be opening up doors to another possible shipping war.

[ChelseaS]

@tessieroo

You're not the only one who wants ET dead right now. Since the drama devoted so much time on the ET clan, this means less time for:

ED vs SN showdown (if there will be)
Bayan being the next villain (but I am now doubting this route, since we saw the scene where Bayan was being concerned for TH. Also, he said in episode 21 that he wants power because he wants a good country? Or was the subbing not accurate?)
Taltal siding with SN and betraying Bayan
Return of Batolu's daughter

[Guest Ding Lin]

@pegster

Oh! I hope I did not let you feel that I was starting a war ! As many here, English is not my first language so that some things may come up stronger than it should be !  <Shake hands>  

Alos, just a note here.  No matter how things were done in WY's or WG's ways. There would have been many deaths. The question was just when, where and how. That was the sad fact when a small nation faced a big powerful nation.  I guess that was exactly why SN made her ultimate choice to gain the political power to change things. 

pegster said: @Ding Lin, @vu_hoa1983: I just want to clarify, my ranking of tragic characters post was not intended to condone or praise either WY or TH's actions/choices.
What I'm trying to say is that WY choose to take the harder path.  For example, during when he tried to save all those tribute women by freeing them, the act itself was noble, and intended to do good, but really, the results were he complete opposite. This due to his rash decision, without thinking through the possible consequences.
There's no doubt that WY is a noble man, and in many people's eyes, he's a perfect leader...but remember that conversation WG had with WY at this throne.  It was somewhere along the lines of 'Your constant fight against the Yuan is just going to bring more harm to the citizens, is what you're doing really helping the people, or is it helping you to achieve your ideal world?' (Sorry, if this is not completely right, it's just based on my memory, and I didn't bother to re-watch).
There are many roads that can be taken to reach the end, if WY chooses the road that he feels is the best path for him, great.  But look at how many dead bodies are paved along that road.
Like I said before, I don't believe any great leader reaches his position without giving up the lives of innocent people, so I have no problem with what WY has done.  It's a matter of his choice.
Just like when he tried to over thrown ET, he underestimated ET's powers, and overestimated his own intelligence.  Now this is the one thing that bothers me about WY, IMO, I see him as being arrogant at times.  I think if he had acted with more modesty in front of his enemies, he would have easier time winning his war.
Like I said, he made life harder because he chose to do everything in the open. He did such a great job planning his plot against WG, he could do the same thing with Yuan/ET.  He must have done something to alert ET that he was someone who can't be trusted on the Goryeo throne to have increased ET's mission to get rid of Goryeo.
As with TH, like I said he's always acted like a child, and is only now that he's started to mature.  Again, he chose to go up against ET without thinking it through.  After he had failed, he repented, and realized that his actions were too rash.  Nothing wrong with his choice to do what he did, just that he didn't make the best choice at that time IMO.
Again, he could've just done nothing, and live his life as a puppet for as long as ET lets him live, but he's decided now that he wants to get back the power he should rightfully have as emperor of Yuan.
Like someone said, the difference between WY and TH's struggle for power is that, right now, WY wants to get his power back for his people.  TH wants to get his power back for himself, and the people he cares about, SN.  You can't really say either is right or wrong, just they both have different priorities.


@ChelseaS Thank you for reading my extended post  Just as I was starting to miss my fabily 

I'm going to end my discussion on this topic here as I'm getting a feeling that it may be opening up doors to another possible shipping war.

[vu_hoa1983]

pegster said:
I'm going to end my discussion on this topic here as I'm getting a feeling that it may be opening up doors to another possible shipping war.

[tieuyeunu]

[ChelseaS]

Is this the day of long posts??


Kidding aside...

@tieuyeunu

Didn't see it before, but that's very possible. That will make a very tragic ending for both characters, if writers make SN fall in love with TH, too.