[Mainland Chinese Drama 2017] The King’s Woman 泰时丽人明月心

[dancingbee]

I love Jing Ke and Li Er's pair - sword dance in Ep 7. So beautiful....

 

 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

48 minutes ago, briaes said:

 

@Latte_Anyday

Yes, he's a model turned actor. Which is why i believe he should go back to his forte. Lol. And nope, TKW is not his first acting assignment. He was a main lead in some drama back in 2014 and 2016. I know... i was shocked too when i found out 

 

@january1234

LOLing real hard at your take on LC/JK. Yeah, he's a model first then actor. Rightly so, he was more concerned about the lighting/colour than ZBB who was more focussed on delivering the spot on expression and body language. Lol 

@briaes @january1234 @Latte_Anyday Not sure that being so focused on lighting/color really even helped LC/JK.  ZBB had great camera angles regardless because he looked like he was enjoying himself in the moment and that happiness/satisfaction shone through.

 

The other thing that kind of bothered me but I left it alone... but I need to say it now is that DD's swordsmanship was not crisp - most of the time, I could not believe that she actually was capable of killing anyone because her wrists were too loose when she moved her sword and especially in the last scenes of episode 48 when the camera focused on her hands and arms, you could really see that her movements were not tight and crisp.  Having once upon a time been a taekwondo student, the dojo master always slapped us for lacking crisp and tight movements.  Because if your movements are crisp and tight as possible, you are in control and you leave little room to be taken advantage of.  I have seen other actresses do a much, much better job on the crispness of the movements with respect to swordsmanship and marital arts.

15 minutes ago, dancingbee said:

I love Jing Ke and Li Er's pair - sword dance in Ep 7. So beautiful....

 

 

This was beautiful except that JK's pout is still there.  He is defined by the fish pout.

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

2 hours ago, dancingbee said:

 

At first, I thought Ying Zheng truly grew to love Tian Ming as his own son because his love for Li Er. But it was just an act to get Li Er to fall for him.

In fact, Ying Zheng had raised Tian Ming all those years to keep Li Er. He asked his soldiers to bring Tian Ming back after Li Er sent him away because he did not want to lose his face and he still needed Tian Ming to be the puppet Crown Prince and to continue keeping the boy's mother around.   Ying Zheng has planned to eventually kill Tian Ming off after using him to push his own son,  Fu Su, to become the Crown Prince. That was why Li Er sent Tian Ming away with Han Sen.

I can't believe that a great emperor, as he claimed himself to be, would use such a coward and dirty trick of poisoning Jing Ke before the fight. Without the poison, Jing Ke already had zero chance of coming out of that palace alive. Yet, the great emperor of the great Qin would dual with the man who was severely poisoned. How disgraceful!!!  Jing ke had proved to be a much greater man than that Da Wang.

 

Well one of the great thinkers from the other kingdoms and advised YZ to divide and to conquer from within instead of trying to conquer just with military might (because that did not work with the Zhao Kingdom because of the fantastic general that it had).  And as @dramalover1 pointed out, "All is well in love and war."  Also, it was a different era and a different time, and I suspect some of this still goes on in the modern world despite our illusions that we are civilized - we just do away with each other differently because physical killing is not an acceptable form anymore.  But spreading rumors and then preventing someone from being able to ever be employed again, that happens and that is analogous to what YZ was doing back then in the BC era.

 

And this is exactly where all the inconsistencies merge - the last 6 episodes, YZ suddenly wanted to do away with Tian Ming... some of this is probably due to the fact that the writers suddenly remembered that they had to be consistent with the novel The Legend of Qin.  Again, pieces of this drama were lovely and then put together, it made my head hurt.

 

By the way, great still of ZBB and the young child who played Tian Ming.  All those BTS scenes between the two of them are very funny.

2 hours ago, dancingbee said:

 

           My favorite character....

 

 

 

Perfect partner material for the modern era but not the BC era.

[january1234]

@rosamundekingsley99_stv-I wasn't convinced when she replaced the ill YZ when facing off Prince Jia of Zhao-you know, the moment when she came out of the wagon instead of him and shouted "fight". I've seen more conviction in playground scraps.

[sveta89]

i finally finished the series with eng subtitles ... the main characters were both cruel to one another .. if only jk and lier did not save the king as children (which he repaid them both with death in adulthood and killed all of lier family) then all of this could have been avoided. Both did not have pure love it was always twisted and warped. and YZ stabbed through his best man to kill JK .. so wrong on so many levels .. the loyalty felt disregarded and YZ the main "user" of them all .. hell he even got the maid 

[Latte_Anyday]

@dancingbee said:-

Quote

I can't believe that a great emperor, as he claimed himself to be, would use such a coward and dirty trick of poisoning Jing Ke before the fight. Without the poison, Jing Ke already had zero chance of coming out of that palace alive.

Well without his power as King, Ying Zhen is nothing more than an ordinary man. So he does what any man in power or has authority would do, resort to dirty tactics. And yea Han was my favorite too.

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv Poor Dilraba..the nitpicking on her flaws just continues LoL! I did notice that Dilraba's martial arts to be somewhat lacking but because her skills were not the focus of the Drama it didn't bother me much. Bin2 pretty much outshone anything else IMO. 

Interesting insight into the same tactics bein' used in today's modern world. Ying Zhen is just a ruthless ruler who will stop at nothing in world domination, even at the expense of anyone dear to him...

 

LoL @the Kebab reference! @january1234

@Wotad I didn't like the ending at all. It was indeed very rushed and a huge mess. The end where Ying Zhen held a dying Li in his arms didn't move me for some reason LoL. I think I just wanted this trainwreck to end as quickly as possible.

[marimari00]

8 hours ago, january1234 said:

ZBB/YZ was all "I'm going to kill you MYSELF even if I have to kebab Li Zhong as well" -all focused killing/red mist before the eyes  intensity whist LC/JK was "hope they're lighting my best side/does this colour suit me..?." 

 

I literally laughed out loud at LiZhong the kebab. That scene emotionally scarred me but your comment might have just erased that trauma.  I can watch that scene and laugh now thank you!

[briaes]

12 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@briaes @january1234 @Latte_Anyday Not sure that being so focused on lighting/color really even helped LC/JK.  ZBB had great camera angles regardless because he looked like he was enjoying himself in the moment and that happiness/satisfaction shone through.

 

The other thing that kind of bothered me but I left it alone... but I need to say it now is that DD's swordsmanship was not crisp - most of the time, I could not believe that she actually was capable of killing anyone because her wrists were too loose when she moved her sword and especially in the last scenes of episode 48 when the camera focused on her hands and arms, you could really see that her movements were not tight and crisp.  Having once upon a time been a taekwondo student, the dojo master always slapped us for lacking crisp and tight movements.  Because if your movements are crisp and tight as possible, you are in control and you leave little room to be taken advantage of.  I have seen other actresses do a much, much better job on the crispness of the movements with respect to swordsmanship and marital arts.

This was beautiful except that JK's pout is still there.  He is defined by the fish pout.

 

I guess that's where the difference between ZBB and LC lies. One graduated from a theatre academy while the other just dabbled into acting. ZBB learned the tricks of the trade at school whereas LC had to learn the ropes the hard way - on the job. Lol 

 

But DD also graduated from the same academy. So I hv no idea why she's lacking in so many areas, esp when TKW is supposed to be her "vehicle".  I do agree with your earlier thoughts that DD is not comfortable with intimate scenes. I've seen some still shots of YZ/Li kissing. She didn't even part her lips. Seriously, clam up like an oyster and shut tight tightly. And maybe because she's kind of reserved, ZBB took the cue from her and went easy. ZBB's peck on her forehead didn't even look like one. It's more of like a light graze against her skin.  Lol. Talk about nitpicking 

 

[briaes]

@dancingbee

 

My thoughts on YZ's love towards TM.

 

I do think that YZ truly loved TM. He loved him as Li's son. Not as his own son. The difference here is how as a parent you would love your own biological child and how you love other kids. Its a different kind of love. Like how some pointed out how Li can love both YZ and JK. What is clear is YZ definitely loved TM for he's an intelligent and adorable kid. Much more than his 2 biological princes Fusu and Ziying. In fact, YZ has stated over again how he wished for TM to be his son with Li. 

 

YZ is really bummed out and it hurts him to the core by the fact that TM is JK's son and that they're blood related. Still, he was prepared to take the secret of TM's paternity to his grave. For reasons being his ego, keeping Li by his side forever, TM's safety etc. 

 

YZ did not deliberately set out to kill TM. He could if he wanted too. He was just using TM to fulfil his selfish desires to buck up Fusu, his firstborn son - they are highly regarded in Chinese family hierarchy, a major thing in Chinese customs even till today. And in the process of appointing TM as crown prince, he'll be entangled with lots of court politics as those ministers have their own fractions. Most are on Fusu's side. Maybe TM will have a handful backing him up. But since the majority support Fusu, they will plot against TM and this will inevitably lead to his downfall. This is unavoidable.

 

And if, only IF word of TM's paternity ever gets out, his life will be in danger, because that will constitute as a crime for lying to the king, which warrants excecution. That was why YZ said untill then, his life will be in danger. By just putting TM in a tight spot of a crown prince position with dirty politics against him will not get him killed outright. He's a smart kid beyond everything. Only his paternity will. But YZ doesn't really mind that though. After all, YZ always had his own ambitions to fulfil, and this is how he stayed consistent with his character role. Let's not forget YZ is no King of Hearts.  

 

And as for the poisoning of JK, for me it's really a no brainer on YZ's part. How else could he possibly take down a highly skilled warrior one on one if he doesn't resort to dirty tactics to gain an upper hand. Seriously, what are the odds if they were to fight the "gentleman's way"? Maybe the Qin soldiers will finish him off eventually, but YZ wanted to kill JK himself. Its not about being graceful or being a greater man. It's more about winning the game till the very end. I more inclined to believe JK is really dumb beyond words to even think that he actually stood a chance of killing YZ by just taking it on like hero, even if he were to die trying. You need to strategise if you want to kill a king. More so, if he's such a powerful and cunning king. 

 

Also, I dont think YZ is a "great emperor". His achievements yes. But definitely not so in the personality department. 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

8 hours ago, briaes said:

@dancingbee

 

My thoughts on YZ's love towards TM.

 

I do think that YZ truly loved TM. He loved him as Li's son. Not as his own son. The difference here is how as a parent you would love your own biological child and how you love other kids. Its a different kind of love. Like how some pointed out how Li can love both YZ and JK. What is clear is YZ definitely loved TM for he's an intelligent and adorable kid. Much more than his 2 biological princes Fusu and Ziying. In fact, YZ has stated over again how he wished for TM to be his son with Li. 

 

YZ is really bummed out and it hurts him to the core by the fact that TM is JK's son and that they're blood related. Still, he was prepared to take the secret of TM's paternity to his grave. For reasons being his ego, keeping Li by his side forever, TM's safety etc. 

 

YZ did not deliberately set out to kill TM. He could if he wanted too. He was just using TM to fulfil his selfish desires to buck up Fusu, his firstborn son - they are highly regarded in Chinese family hierarchy, a major thing in Chinese customs even till today. And in the process of appointing TM as crown prince, he'll be entangled with lots of court politics as those ministers have their own fractions. Most are on Fusu's side. Maybe TM will have a handful backing him up. But since the majority support Fusu, they will plot against TM and this will inevitably lead to his downfall. This is unavoidable.

 

And if, only IF word of TM's paternity ever gets out, his life will be in danger, because that will constitute as a crime for lying to the king, which warrants excecution. That was why YZ said untill then, his life will be in danger. By just putting TM in a tight spot of a crown prince position with dirty politics against him will not get him killed outright. He's a smart kid beyond everything. Only his paternity will. But YZ doesn't really mind that though. After all, YZ always had his own ambitions to fulfil, and this is how he stayed consistent with his character role. Let's not forget YZ is no King of Hearts.  

 

And as for the poisoning of JK, for me it's really a no brainer on YZ's part. How else could he possibly take down a highly skilled warrior one on one if he doesn't resort to dirty tactics to gain an upper hand. Seriously, what are the odds if they were to fight the "gentleman's way"? Maybe the Qin soldiers will finish him off eventually, but YZ wanted to kill JK himself. Its not about being graceful or being a greater man. It's more about winning the game till the very end. I more inclined to believe JK is really dumb beyond words to even think that he actually stood a chance of killing YZ by just taking it on like hero, even if he were to die trying. You need to strategise if you want to kill a king. More so, if he's such a powerful and cunning king. 

 

Also, I dont think YZ is a "great emperor". His achievements yes. But definitely not so in the personality department. 

Thanks @briaes  - most of us are neither good nor bad and as YZ's mother points out in episode 34, has viewing everything in black and white made YZ happy?  YZ was single-minded about his goals and people who care too much about others do not succeed in achieving their goals.  Also, if YZ had a heart, he would not have tried to unite the kingdoms and muscled on despite all the death and mayhem created by his vision - and that is his consistency.  He may like, love and be hurt but at the end of the day, he roars like a tiger and moves on.

 

I can think of many modern business titans who are similar in personality and outlook as YZ.

 

Again, this has been the best forum - everyone's contributions have made me think and laugh (especially kebabs - I shall never look at them the same way!).  But has anyone noticed that we spend most of our time writing and arguing about YZ's character and we barely make a mention about Li or JK except to throw our hands up in the hair or make fun of them?  There was a moment when I thought that this drama did a great thing in acknowledging the vagaries of the human heart and the fact that there are people are neither 100% all good or bad but that it depends on the environment and how committed to one's principles one is willing to be because purists rarely survive.  So there was no "truly" good guy/girl; in fact, in the standard drama YZ would be the bad guy except ZBB did too good a job (like Daniel Chan did with the king in Lan Ling Wang) and brought his foibles and vulnerabilities to life for us so that we could empathize at least with him from time to time regardless of what we thought of his motives and actions.  He was not a cardboard character whereas JK faded into cardboard territory and to a certain extent so did Li because she was kind of like IU in the Korean version of Scarlet Heart - as viewers, we could not understand Li's motivations or thoughts and so we kind of tuned out from time to time.  Dramabeans pointed out that IU's character could not be figured out by the viewer and therefore we lost sympathy and empathy for her.

 

Whereas as with YZ, from the smirk, swagger, stern expression to the efficient slicing of throats with a flick of a wrist, we understood what he was feeling and what he was doing.  We did not condone it but we knew and to a certain extent there was a part of us that had been where he had been.  I mean wanting world peace and helping the weak are such beauty pageant responses; but wanting everyone to fear you in order to protect the ones you love, that is a double-edged sword - yes, you can protect the ones you love when everyone fears you but the ones you love fear you too and that love departs, and then as the intended recipient, you stop knowing the line between fear and love.  Kind of like the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera.

[divethereal]

On 10/7/2017 at 6:08 AM, peanutbutterjellytime said:

Sorry I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this but I'm consistently amazed by those that dismiss - if not outright defend Ying Zheng's issues, actions or instability throughout the drama.  Only because he's a swoonworthy handsome King portrayed by Zhang Bin Bin, does not change how messed up he is. Dude is an immense prick I feel no sympathy for who essentially drove everyone away and reaps what he does. The price of being a ruthless leader who accomplished something no other has done I suppose.

 

 From the moment he used a method as backhanded as poisoning Jing Ke -a childhood friend who also saved him- to blackmail Gong Sun  Li to become his concubine I have a hard time rooting for this OTP.  If YZ is not a handsome young thang with serious bad boy vibes, but is old and fat, people would be finding it creepy instead of "romantic". Half the people wishing for Jing Ke to leave them alone would be singing a different tune - instead rooting for him to reclaim his lady love and whisk her as far away possible from the palace.    

YZ has done ruthless and evil acts -no doubt on that. BUT I think it's possible to love the person even if you disagree on his actions and hate his decisions. At least in this drama, ZBB's acting was able to achieve that. It also helped, of course, that the series tried to explain his terrible childhood where he was basically rejected by everyone resulting to his lust for power. I empathized with him since we all experience rejection at some point in our lives- just in different forms thereby causing us to make wrong decisions.

I believe in happy endings and I was REALLY hoping that his love for Li will change his heart and will somehow heal his wounds but I guess, that is such a great promise the drama couldn't meet. 

[divethereal]

On 10/4/2017 at 2:03 AM, nna125 said:

YZ stab Li by his sword but Li use the hilt of dagger. Li died.

 

 

For me, this is the ONLY thing that saved the ending from a total heartbreak disaster. I was crying a river on this exact scene especially during the flashbacks of how many times Li saved YZ life. I say, he is a total idiot to believe Li can actually kill him.

As I've explained in my previous post, I believe this act of Li proved her love to Yin Zheng DESPITE every evil thing he did. I also believe that YZ loved Li but in the last episodes, he was just so consumed by his jealousy and thirst for domination he became simply insane, I don't want to analyze anymore, my head hurts. I just want to give myself a closure on this drama and will think that at least Li died for a reason and her love for the king has been true.

[january1234]

Well, you have to smash a lot of eggs to make an Imperial Omelette. And it starts in  the family nest- Lao Ai and his half brothers and, particularly painful to him, Chengjiao. In this drama he treated Yan Dan to a sort of half way house-former friend -but-hostage, but guess what, there was still major resentment from Yan Dan leading to the ill conceived assassination  plot.So not surprised that he was  confused, and decided on no grey areas. You could not rely on childhood ties- he grew up with Min , Dan and the Princes of Zhao-only for it to end in bitter conflict and betrayal each time. Better to assume no one is really a friend and that everyone lies.

As to the succession,  history in hindsight shows the rivalry between  Huhai and Fusu in the future-it  was inevitable . This YZ was stating what would happen between TM/Fusu and the others as a fact of life. Huhai plotted with Zhao Gao/Li Si to induce Fusu to kill himself. Huhai is also "credited"   by some with wiping out his other half  brothers and sisters, thus contributing to the demise of the Qin dynasty.The Emperor's own reported search for an elixir of life shows that he did not want to relinquish control to anyone, even his children. In fact, to me the circumstances around his death,e.g  that the succession could be forged,that there could be doubt about his heir, shows that.

LBW told YZ's mother not to be so foolish and naive,when she was hoping that they three could effect some sort of reconciliation, as YZ did not hate her anymore.What was more important was uniting the states-and YZ had the ferocity and single mindedness (and yes, the B n W tunnel vision to do that). Although he killed LBW, that ambition (or lesson) did not die. And, the closer he got to crushing each state one by one, the more single minded and ruthless he'd have to be-and the greater the resentment stored up for the future.In military Qin, softness and tenderness were a luxury-and being generous, also too expensive. With personal losses as @rosamundekingsley99_stv says,  however grief stricken you were, you roared and moved on.In this drama, rage was a personal driver of that ambition (all the grudges of being an outsider etc)

It's difficult competing in a nest full of fledglings (OK, I'll stop now with the bird analogy) .It's hard being the first of anything. And once you've got there, it's hard STAYING there for a long time , long enough to establish a lasting legacy or peace.Somehow the Han were able to manage something closer, but it's hard being the first.

It was never going to end well for Li/YZ.I know THAT now. once you've helped and nursed a Tiger-well, it's still a Tiger, however much you love it.

 

[Latte_Anyday]

@rosamundekingsley99_stv said:-

Quote

 

YZ was single-minded about his goals and people who care too much about others do not succeed in achieving their goals.  Also, if YZ had a heart, he would not have tried to unite the kingdoms and muscled on despite all the death and mayhem created by his vision - and that is his consistency.  He may like, love and be hurt but at the end of the day, he roars like a tiger and moves on.

 

Again, this has been the best forum - everyone's contributions have made me think and laugh (especially kebabs - I shall never look at them the same way!).  But has anyone noticed that we spend most of our time writing and arguing about YZ's character and we barely make a mention about Li or JK except to throw our hands up in the hair or make fun of them?  There was a moment when I thought that this drama did a great thing in acknowledging the vagaries of the human heart and the fact that there are people are neither 100% all good or bad but that it depends on the environment and how committed to one's principles one is willing to be because purists rarely survive.  So there was no "truly" good guy/girl; in fact, in the standard drama YZ would be the bad guy except ZBB did too good a job (like Daniel Chan did with the king in Lan Ling Wang) and brought his foibles and vulnerabilities to life for us so that we could empathize at least with him from time to time regardless of what we thought of his motives and actions.  He was not a cardboard character whereas JK faded into cardboard territory and to a certain extent so did Li because she was kind of like IU in the Korean version of Scarlet Heart - as viewers, we could not understand Li's motivations or thoughts and so we kind of tuned out from time to time.  Dramabeans pointed out that IU's character could not be figured out by the viewer and therefore we lost sympathy and empathy for her.

 

Whereas as with YZ, from the smirk, swagger, stern expression to the efficient slicing of throats with a flick of a wrist, we understood what he was feeling and what he was doing.  We did not condone it but we knew and to a certain extent there was a part of us that had been where he had been.  I mean wanting world peace and helping the weak are such beauty pageant responses; but wanting everyone to fear you in order to protect the ones you love, that is a double-edged sword - yes, you can protect the ones you love when everyone fears you but the ones you love fear you too and that love departs, and then as the intended recipient, you stop knowing the line between fear and love.  Kind of like the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera.

 

I must say that most of your posts @rosamundekingsley99_stv in particular resonates with me...are you sure you're not the actual scriptwriter for The King's Woman LMFAo!??! They should've hired you my dear! I mean that in the best way possible 

Also most of the posts here are pointing out Dilraba's less than stellar acting skills (I'm guilty of it as well) while I am in agreement that Ying Zhen was brought to life with so much conviction by Bin2, I have a lot of reservations on the choices he made & they truly unnerve me for obvious reasons. I can understand the appeal/attraction to Ying Zhen. All of us are moths to a flame when it comes to power etc. There's somethin' very alluring when someone has/exudes authority, but I guess when the man in question look as good and is as charismatic as Bin2 does, the attraction is inevitable LoL. 

It's unfortunate that the actor cast for Jing Ker just so happen to be a model by profession. I know that's no excuse because there's been many model turned actors who've done excellent work i.e. Kim Woobin, Lee Jongsuk (I know they're K-actors but they're at the top of my head atm) It certainly didn't help that the writers have him whine and wallow in a drunken stupor for some, 75% of the Drama

Like all things in life, there has to be a balance. Due to the circumstances and environment Ying Zhen was exposed to throughout his life has shaped him into the tyrant historians know today. Would he have been just as great a ruler had he been a gentle, considerate ruler as you've mentioned? Probably...yes, but easily taken advantage of. No one is innately good or bad again to point out what you've said, but what makes us different is how we choose to do with the decisions we're given. Sadly for Ying Zhen he bears grudges, lots of them. Instead of letting his bad experiences strengthen him, he let them define him. 

Your last comment on Phantom of the Opera was funny to me because I read somewhere that someone was turned off by the glaring white light during the scene where Ying Zhen held a dying Li in his arms LoL! They thought the director might have had some unfulfilled theater inclinations.   

And what was up with Han levitating in the air when he was killed huh

 

@january1234 Are you hungry by any chance? I'm just curious with the Kebab, omelette food references LMFAo!

[january1234]

@Latte_Anyday on 500 calories today. I could chew my own arm off ,and have to stay away from pictures of food. MY subconscious is thankfully not very complicated...

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

6 hours ago, divethereal said:

For me, this is the ONLY thing that saved the ending from a total heartbreak disaster. I was crying a river on this exact scene especially during the flashbacks of how many times Li saved YZ life. I say, he is a total idiot to believe Li can actually kill him.

As I've explained in my previous post, I believe this act of Li proved her love to Yin Zheng DESPITE every evil thing he did. I also believe that YZ loved Li but in the last episodes, he was just so consumed by his jealousy and thirst for domination he became simply insane, I don't want to analyze anymore, my head hurts. I just want to give myself a closure on this drama and will think that at least Li died for a reason and her love for the king has been true.

 

7 hours ago, divethereal said:

YZ has done ruthless and evil acts -no doubt on that. BUT I think it's possible to love the person even if you disagree on his actions and hate his decisions. At least in this drama, ZBB's acting was able to achieve that. It also helped, of course, that the series tried to explain his terrible childhood where he was basically rejected by everyone resulting to his lust for power. I empathized with him since we all experience rejection at some point in our lives- just in different forms thereby causing us to make wrong decisions.

I believe in happy endings and I was REALLY hoping that his love for Li will change his heart and will somehow heal his wounds but I guess, that is such a great promise the drama couldn't meet. 

@divethereal  when I read your passages and your analysis, it made me think of the song by Mika  - "No Happy Endings" - especially this part of the chorus:

 

This is the way you left me
I'm not pretending
No hope, no love, no glory
No happy ending
This is the way that we love
Like it's forever
Then live the rest of our life
But not together

Wake up in the morning, stumble on my life
Can't get no love without sacrifice
If anything should happen, I'd guess I wish you well
Mm, a little bit of heaven, but a little bit of hell
 

I learned about this song thanks to someone's Grace Kelly tribute - this was the background music - I linked it above - but it also says a great deal about Grace Kelly's life too.  And for all of us - "a little bit of heaven, but a little bit of hell" and the story between YZ and Li was exactly this.  

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 hours ago, Latte_Anyday said:

@rosamundekingsley99_stv said:-

I must say that most of your posts @rosamundekingsley99_stv in particular resonates with me...are you sure you're not the actual scriptwriter for The King's Woman LMFAo!??! They should've hired you my dear! I mean that in the best way possible 

Also most of the posts here are pointing out Dilraba's less than stellar acting skills (I'm guilty of it as well) while I am in agreement that Ying Zhen was brought to life with so much conviction by Bin2, I have a lot of reservations on the choices he made & they truly unnerve me for obvious reasons. I can understand the appeal/attraction to Ying Zhen. All of us are moths to a flame when it comes to power etc. There's somethin' very alluring when someone has/exudes authority, but I guess when the man in question look as good and is as charismatic as Bin2 does, the attraction is inevitable LoL. 

It's unfortunate that the actor cast for Jing Ker just so happen to be a model by profession. I know that's no excuse because there's been many model turned actors who've done excellent work i.e. Kim Woobin, Lee Jongsuk (I know they're K-actors but they're at the top of my head atm) It certainly didn't help that the writers have him whine and wallow in a drunken stupor for some, 75% of the Drama

Like all things in life, there has to be a balance. Due to the circumstances and environment Ying Zhen was exposed to throughout his life has shaped him into the tyrant historians know today. Would he have been just as great a ruler had he been a gentle, considerate ruler as you've mentioned? Probably...yes, but easily taken advantage of. No one is innately good or bad again to point out what you've said, but what makes us different is how we choose to do with the decisions we're given. Sadly for Ying Zhen he bears grudges, lots of them. Instead of letting his bad experiences strengthen him, he let them define him. 

Your last comment on Phantom of the Opera was funny to me because I read somewhere that someone was turned off by the glaring white light during the scene where Ying Zhen held a dying Li in his arms LoL! They thought the director might have had some unfulfilled theater inclinations.   

And what was up with Han levitating in the air when he was killed huh

 

@january1234 Are you hungry by any chance? I'm just curious with the Kebab, omelette food references LMFAo!

@Latte_Anyday  Ha, I think that of any of us, @dramalover1 might be the scriptwriter or at least they should hired @dramalover1.  She understand structure and character arc and those are important skills.  But thank you for your kind words.

 

The attraction to YZ probably has more to do with his aura and presence rather than his looks - I know many seemingly unattractive men who are attractive because there is something about their eyes, and often it is the eyes that are the door to the soul.  YZ never hid his soul - he still had one when this drama began; you just questioned whether he had tossed it away when he killed Li and roared on the steps of his palace hall.  And as @january1234 pointed out, trust is a commodity akin to platinum to YZ because everytime he trusts, it is almost like an atomic bomb goes off and he is taught again and again that he should not trust.  In this Yan Dan is right - YZ is the king of Qin, he cannot have normal relationships because everything is colored by the fact that he is the king of Qin and the choices he must make to expand Qin's territory. Yan Dan does not judge him for that - as he too is royalty and a crown prince, he knows that he does not have a chance but to go down the road to try to assassinate YZ.

 

4 hours ago, january1234 said:

Well, you have to smash a lot of eggs to make an Imperial Omelette. And it starts in  the family nest- Lao Ai and his half brothers and, particularly painful to him, Chengjiao. In this drama he treated Yan Dan to a sort of half way house-former friend -but-hostage, but guess what, there was still major resentment from Yan Dan leading to the ill conceived assassination  plot.So not surprised that he was  confused, and decided on no grey areas. You could not rely on childhood ties- he grew up with Min , Dan and the Princes of Zhao-only for it to end in bitter conflict and betrayal each time. Better to assume no one is really a friend and that everyone lies.

As to the succession,  history in hindsight shows the rivalry between  Huhai and Fusu in the future-it  was inevitable . This YZ was stating what would happen between TM/Fusu and the others as a fact of life. Huhai plotted with Zhao Gao/Li Si to induce Fusu to kill himself. Huhai is also "credited"   by some with wiping out his other half  brothers and sisters, thus contributing to the demise of the Qin dynasty.The Emperor's own reported search for an elixir of life shows that he did not want to relinquish control to anyone, even his children. In fact, to me the circumstances around his death,e.g  that the succession could be forged,that there could be doubt about his heir, shows that.

LBW told YZ's mother not to be so foolish and naive,when she was hoping that they three could effect some sort of reconciliation, as YZ did not hate her anymore.What was more important was uniting the states-and YZ had the ferocity and single mindedness (and yes, the B n W tunnel vision to do that). Although he killed LBW, that ambition (or lesson) did not die. And, the closer he got to crushing each state one by one, the more single minded and ruthless he'd have to be-and the greater the resentment stored up for the future.In military Qin, softness and tenderness were a luxury-and being generous, also too expensive. With personal losses as @rosamundekingsley99_stv says,  however grief stricken you were, you roared and moved on.In this drama, rage was a personal driver of that ambition (all the grudges of being an outsider etc)

It's difficult competing in a nest full of fledglings (OK, I'll stop now with the bird analogy) .It's hard being the first of anything. And once you've got there, it's hard STAYING there for a long time , long enough to establish a lasting legacy or peace.Somehow the Han were able to manage something closer, but it's hard being the first.

It was never going to end well for Li/YZ.I know THAT now. once you've helped and nursed a Tiger-well, it's still a Tiger, however much you love it.

 

@january1234 love your food analogies!  And yes, it is hard being the first and once you have raised a tiger, that tiger's basic instincts do not disappear no matter how much you love it.

[briaes]

13 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

Thanks @briaes  - most of us are neither good nor bad and as YZ's mother points out in episode 34, has viewing everything in black and white made YZ happy?  YZ was single-minded about his goals and people who care too much about others do not succeed in achieving their goals.  Also, if YZ had a heart, he would not have tried to unite the kingdoms and muscled on despite all the death and mayhem created by his vision - and that is his consistency.  He may like, love and be hurt but at the end of the day, he roars like a tiger and moves on.

 

I can think of many modern business titans who are similar in personality and outlook as YZ.

 

Again, this has been the best forum - everyone's contributions have made me think and laugh (especially kebabs - I shall never look at them the same way!).  But has anyone noticed that we spend most of our time writing and arguing about YZ's character and we barely make a mention about Li or JK except to throw our hands up in the hair or make fun of them?  There was a moment when I thought that this drama did a great thing in acknowledging the vagaries of the human heart and the fact that there are people are neither 100% all good or bad but that it depends on the environment and how committed to one's principles one is willing to be because purists rarely survive.  So there was no "truly" good guy/girl; in fact, in the standard drama YZ would be the bad guy except ZBB did too good a job (like Daniel Chan did with the king in Lan Ling Wang) and brought his foibles and vulnerabilities to life for us so that we could empathize at least with him from time to time regardless of what we thought of his motives and actions.  He was not a cardboard character whereas JK faded into cardboard territory and to a certain extent so did Li because she was kind of like IU in the Korean version of Scarlet Heart - as viewers, we could not understand Li's motivations or thoughts and so we kind of tuned out from time to time.  Dramabeans pointed out that IU's character could not be figured out by the viewer and therefore we lost sympathy and empathy for her.

 

Whereas as with YZ, from the smirk, swagger, stern expression to the efficient slicing of throats with a flick of a wrist, we understood what he was feeling and what he was doing.  We did not condone it but we knew and to a certain extent there was a part of us that had been where he had been.  I mean wanting world peace and helping the weak are such beauty pageant responses; but wanting everyone to fear you in order to protect the ones you love, that is a double-edged sword - yes, you can protect the ones you love when everyone fears you but the ones you love fear you too and that love departs, and then as the intended recipient, you stop knowing the line between fear and love.  Kind of like the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera.

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv

Thank you. Your post is very thought provoking. How the human race have evolved socially through our perceived civilisation yet our basic survival instincts remained unchanged. Our brain is definitely wired for survival the way we want and choose it.

 

And i believe you are much more than a scriptwriter, you are a humanities guru. 

 

[january1234]

@rosamundekingsley99_stv- you said that the eyes are the door of the soul, YZ never hid his soul and that :

Quote

he still had one when this drama began; you just questioned whether he had tossed it away when he killed Li and roared on the steps of his palace hall

I think after killing Li, he might well have done.IMO he gave up on all hope of intimacy like LBW, and as he said in 35, he could not protect her/anyone  anymore probably from himself as well. The real YZ incorporated a very mechanical system-obey the rules or be (harshly)punished . He( in a way) sold his soul for the state and then gave it up entirely after that. That's what made the ending so sad for me , as all hope of the good things in himself he had also hoped for, went when he killed her. And maybe the dream of her had represented these things.She made a grand gesture effectively trying to make him understand, but I don't know in the end if he either understood it or learned anything from it. Maybe again it's the way it was written/acted that made it seem  sad and (a bit) pointless to me.

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

1 hour ago, january1234 said:

@rosamundekingsley99_stv- you said that the eyes are the door of the soul, YZ never hid his soul and that :

I think after killing Li, he might well have done.IMO he gave up on all hope of intimacy like LBW, and as he said in 35, he could not protect her/anyone  anymore probably from himself as well. The real YZ incorporated a very mechanical system-obey the rules or be (harshly)punished . He( in a way) sold his soul for the state and then gave it up entirely after that. That's what made the ending so sad for me , as all hope of the good things in himself he had also hoped for, went when he killed her. And maybe the dream of her had represented these things.She made a grand gesture effectively trying to make him understand, but I don't know in the end if he either understood it or learned anything from it. Maybe again it's the way it was written/acted that made it seem  sad and (a bit) pointless to me.

@january1234  You have connected the loop that these writers probably intended but it is taking awhile for us to connect them because the drama was 48 episodes - you're right in episode 35 and 36, YZ admitted that he could not protect Li or anyone anymore; one of the few moments in this drama that was moving (and it took me some time away to rewatch it) was when he leaves Li with Han Shen without looking back.  A tear or two rolls down his right cheek and he has to remind himself that he is the king of Qin and that he cannot stop here and that perhaps Li was too good for him and that she was just a dream.  Even if I had not expected a NOT happy ending, this by itself gave me plenty of hints that they would not end together happily or separately happily.  He needs to gaze at his people to remind himself that he needs to give up a dream of personal happiness, and for one brief blue moon, she represented the dream of happiness and normality that he knew deep down that he could not ever achieve because he was not willing to walk away from being king of Qin.  Which frankly he could not have anyway in real life.  

 

Perhaps some of our dissatisfaction with the writers on this drama is that it reminds us too vividly of the choices that we have to make and the pain that comes from some of the chosen choices consequences; this drama does not give us sunshine and roses and no one is ever able to "have it all."  It provides the keen and painful lesson that we must give up something that we may love the most to achieve something else - and actually, it is interesting because the general who lost his daughter in the Korean version of Scarlet Heart said that same thing - he was only interested in supporting Wang So for king if he demonstrated that he would give up the thing that he loves the most; and Wang So's father gave up the woman he loved for his empire and when she took the fall for the mayhem created by his queen, he stoically uttered that as king he must know when it is time to throw away people and things.