[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner

[kdramawriter]

4 hours ago, shamelessmiss said:

 

I hope he knows that there are individuals who might not agree with the way the drama ended but still very grateful of the way it ended.

I'm one of the few who loved the way it ended. I thought it was a beautiful thematic ending and the ending open to interpretation. Sometimes, great art is not suppose to wholly satisfy us but make us yearn for more. 

[40somethingahjumma]

Moon Lovers Retrospective Ep. 12

 

I was going to put 12 and 13 together but after re-watching 12 I thought better of it. There's just too much going on in one episode.

 

It seems to baffle many that Hae Su would even consider rejecting So out of hand after all his incredible declarations of steadfastness and love from the previous episode. There’s an underlying assumption I imagine that she’s an empty headed candy girl who is incapable of recognize the quality of the man under her nose and that she’s somehow a first class idiot to hold lingering feelings for the coward that walked away from her. According to this line of thought, it’s supposed to be easy for someone who has experienced brutality of how the palace troubleshoots to plunge from one relationship to another with relative ease. Perhaps I’m caricaturing things a tad but that’s the logic I’m left with.

 

So is an easy character to love. Much of our sympathies in this drama lies with him. Although he may be abrupt at times, clumsy with his words, he is a man of action through and through. It’s an attractive quality but it shouldn’t mean that a woman should be obliged to throw her lot in with him after experiencing ten degrees of trauma.

 

Su’s rejection of So at this point is much bigger than the man himself. It’s a general repudiation of what the palace is and all that it stands for. She wants to forget it all. Someone she cared about, someone who was a mentor and mother-figure to her made the ultimate sacrifice for her. It’s hardly surprising then that she wants to forget it all and put it all behind her. She is quite aware too that So has had to give up his freedom and his desire to live in the palace because of her. More than that, however, she knows herself that getting involved with So is political dynamite and the safest cause of action is to stay away. It’s a view seemingly shared by the King who sends her off to the far ends of the palace to be a water maid at the Gyobang.

 

I think it’s important from time to time to stand back from the romance in this show and look at the show from the point of view of politics. The obstacles exist not just for storytelling purposes but because it’s been established that they exist because of the cultural context it's located in.

 

We receive confirmation in Ep. 20 of course that she’s liked him for a very long time so it wasn’t the lack of liking that held her back for as long as it did.

 

I think it’s much clearer to me this time round that in essence So and Uk want the same thing. They both want the girl but the way they choose to get there is quite different. Uk acts out of his own sense of powerlessness but So acts out of his own sense of liberty. Certainly they are both powerless in the sense that they are subject to the whims of others… Uk with the demands of family, So with his parents but So never allows the external restrictions to override his internal sense of self. Circumstances don’t determine who he is and he seldom feels the need to play the victim card. When Su fobs him off, he’s not deterred but tacitly acknowledges that she needs time to recover from recent tragedy and attempts to strike a bargain with the King for her freedom.

 

Uk does what he does because he sees himself as the perpetual victim. Even when he finally makes the effort to secretly see Su (after some pushing by Jeong), it’s all about him. It’s about his feeling powerless, about him feeling guilty and bad that she’s in the state that she’s in. We get the usual dose of “I, I, I… excuses, excuses, excuses.”

 

It’s amusing that in one scene Uk tells Jeong that no one can go against the King if they want to survive in the palace but then So does exactly that when he returns from being an envoy and gets away with it. In fact, much to General Pak’s surprise, he earns his father’s pride and respect for doing so.

 

Uk craves safety and legitimacy within the status quo. It never seems to occur to him that he can rewrite the rules. He wants to have Su in relative safety. He wants the throne without getting his hands dirty. The brilliant line “the traitor that kills the traitor is a hero” uttered by him encapsulates the way he thinks perfectly. That’s why in almost every instance he’s left watching in the sidelines and playing second fiddle to just about all his siblings despite purportedly being the smartest and most accomplished one. I have no doubt his upbringing has played a large part in that. I can well imagine the tension of wanting to do illegitimate things while maintaining the veneer of being blameless.

 

Sadly I reached the limits of my patience for Uk in this episode. Despite his less than commendable actions in the previous episode, it was still possible on some level to sympathize with the kind of untenable position he was in and why he made the choices that he did. At the very least he had enough decency left to be embarrassed about his own incompetence. But at this point, I directed a rare outburst at my iPad followed by an uncontrollable urge to throttle him.

 

Clearly he was provoked by jealousy and fear when he accused So of putting Su in the position she’s in but in the final analysis he’s the guy with the big picture. He had all the pieces of the puzzle in his grasp. He knew exactly who pulled the strings and the rationale for it. This knowledge could have saved a lot of lives. Furthermore, this was one of those rare occasions that he did have real power in his hands because he had quite literally, all the evidence at his fingertips. His refusal here to take responsibility for any of it is no doubt posturing. Still, to blame So who was largely a pawn in this situation… that boy Uk is just asking to be hated. I’m in no doubt that it was also Trash Talking 101… to verbally excoriate one’s adversary when his morale must be at its lowest. With no leg to stand on for his own craven behaviour, tactically he had to stoop this low. But of course, So is riding on a wave of confidence. After all, he’s taken the King down a peg or two, how hard can a weasel brother be? Even if So doesn’t have all the facts, he knows that 1) Uk could have done a lot more and 2) Uk turned his back on Su. He hits bullseye when he tells Uk that he should turn just his back on Su just as he always has. Ouch!

 

Yeah, people who live in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones.

 

Continue reading here.

[kdramawriter]

1 hour ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

 

Quote

 

In actual fact throne politics has always been the main thing and the romance was the interloper. From everything she said in the voice over, Su was quite clear on that that when sending him off at their favourite hang-out. She rejected him because she knew that getting involved with him would ultimately end in tears. To put it simply, her head’s telling her that getting romantically involved with the future Gwangjong would be disaster (just as Court Lady O had warned) but her heart is nudging her in a different direction.

...Su did too, long before she became head of Damiwon but she strenuously fought it because she had an inkling of what the long-term consequences would be based on her experience with Uk and Lady O’s warnings.

 

Almost nothing to add except this is the thing that most viewers missed when they were throwing Hae Su under the bus for not loving Wang So back. Yes, WS is amazing, yes his love and chase for HS is so relentless that eventually she gives in so why didn't she give in earlier?! Let's separate the romantic gestures with the practical realities that Hae Su knows. I mean, it was a GIANT bitter pill to swallow when she realized that she could only live when someone else dies in her place. Her reasons for not wanting to be in the relationship with the future Gwangjong are solid. Every single experience HS has had in the palace points to the destruction of love in the palace. The palace destroyed Lady Oh, the palace destroyed whatever love Queen Yoo had for King Taejo. Indeed, the palace has also destroyed her first love with Wook. There are no examples of a happy relationship in the palace. [Heck, there's not even a FRIENDSHIP that can survive: see point Mu/Jimong, then of course Baek-Ah/So]. Hae Su says in her voice over when WS tells her that he would take care of her, that "You must stop caring about me" which is a statement for WS but also for herself. We know from the laundry scene that she DEEPLY missed Wang So, but still pushed him away for fear of both of their safety. Every wrong move she has made in the palace has led to punishment for both her and Wang So. I see her being deeply protective of him here, even if it's not in the romantic way that most audiences favor. 

Quote

Therefore, I’ve come around to the idea that both men are equally problematic for Su not because of who they are per se but where they’re positioned in this battle for the throne. Loving Su is easy but hanging on to her is the tricky part. Neither of them can really give her what she wants as a 21^st century woman because she really doesn’t belong in this world. (“I can’t marry just to leave the palace”)

This X1000. Even though Wang So was more loyal to Hae Su towards the end, the thesis of the show is that love does not survive in the palace. We see the character tirelessly try to attempt to live and love in the palace over and over again, only to fail again and again, of course ending with HS's death. That's why Hae Su's request to Jung at the end of her life is so poignant, she wants her daughter to have love, and it does not exist at the palace. This is pretty much why I was always team Hae Su from the beginning, because both were problematic suitors as you elegantly put it, and she was doing the best she could. 

 

Quote

“Don’t be so obsessed with the future as to lose what you have now.”

 

The King Taejo quote always confused me too! It seemed like he was so against her when he sent her to gyobang, but then when he brings her back, it is directly after Wang So declares that the King does not control him and that he will live like a man. That declaration must have allowed King Taejo to realize that the person who allowed WS to build up his mettle was Hae Su. That's the only thing that makes sense, other wise why the huge 180? And why say that he sees her as his own daughter? Maybe WS's change of heart in declaring himself to his father really changed Taejo's perception of him. 

 

This serves as an example of what the shows functions as a narrative. One event affects another, but the show makes this effort to NOT point out the direct implications, sometimes a less observant viewer is left floundering for the character motivations. I find myself finding out all the logic and consistencies in the SECOND viewing or talking about it with other viewers who take a more dispassionate POV towards character motivations. I really do deeply admire Kim Kyu Tae, I think he did give us something really enigmatic and complex to dwell on instead of spoon feeding us what we're suppose to feel. 

 

[40somethingahjumma]

1 hour ago, kdramawriter said:

Almost nothing to add except this is the thing that most viewers missed when they were throwing Hae Su under the bus for not loving Wang So back. Yes, WS is amazing, yes his love and chase for HS is so relentless that eventually she gives in so why didn't she give in earlier?! Let's separate the romantic gestures with the practical realities that Hae Su knows. I mean, it was a GIANT bitter pill to swallow when she realized that she could only live when someone else dies in her place. Her reasons for not wanting to be in the relationship with the future Gwangjong are solid. Every single experience HS has had in the palace points to the destruction of love in the palace. The palace destroyed Lady Oh, the palace destroyed whatever love Queen Yoo had for King Taejo. Indeed, the palace has also destroyed her first love with Wook. There are no examples of a happy relationship in the palace. [Heck, there's not even a FRIENDSHIP that can survive: see point Mu/Jimong, then of course Baek-Ah/So]. Hae Su says in her voice over when WS tells her that he would take care of her, that "You must stop caring about me" which is a statement for WS but also for herself. We know from the laundry scene that she DEEPLY missed Wang So, but still pushed him away for fear of both of their safety. Every wrong move she has made in the palace has led to punishment for both her and Wang So. I see her being deeply protective of him here, even if it's not in the romantic way that most audiences favor. 

This X1000. Even though Wang So was more loyal to Hae Su towards the end, the thesis of the show is that love does not survive in the palace. We see the character tirelessly try to attempt to live and love in the palace over and over again, only to fail again and again, of course ending with HS's death. That's why Hae Su's request to Jung at the end of her life is so poignant, she wants her daughter to have love, and it does not exist at the palace. This is pretty much why I was always team Hae Su from the beginning, because both were problematic suitors as you elegantly put it, and she was doing the best she could. 

 

 

 

The King Taejo quote always confused me too! It seemed like he was so against her when he sent her to gyobang, but then when he brings her back, it is directly after Wang So declares that the King does not control him and that he will live like a man. That declaration must have allowed King Taejo to realize that the person who allowed WS to build up his mettle was Hae Su. That's the only thing that makes sense, other wise why the huge 180? And why say that he sees her as his own daughter? Maybe WS's change of heart in declaring himself to his father really changed Taejo's perception of him. 

 

This serves as an example of what the shows functions as a narrative. One event affects another, but the show makes this effort to NOT point out the direct implications, sometimes a less observant viewer is left floundering for the character motivations. I find myself finding out all the logic and consistencies in the SECOND viewing or talking about it with other viewers who take a more dispassionate POV towards character motivations. I really do deeply admire Kim Kyu Tae, I think he did give us something really enigmatic and complex to dwell on instead of spoon feeding us what we're suppose to feel. 

 

I'm also of the opinion that it's the "love conquers all" trope that's being deconstructed here. It's refreshing. I imagine it's why the director has vehemently refused to show the handkerchief ending because it would more than likely undermine that repudiation. I'm absolutely certain that the heartbreak at the end is quite intentional... that feeling of emptiness and yearning... is exactly how we should feel. So gained the whole world to change it but he lost everything that was important to him... I'm sure there's a lesson in it for all of us about the choices that we make.

The idea that no one can have everything... the idea that to gain something one has to give up something else... resonates right through the show like a natural law. Politics and love is a bad, bad combination. But I'm saving that for a future retrospective, IF I get there.

I suspect that you and I must enjoy the same kind of shows. All the idiosyncrasies of Moon Lovers that seem to annoy others are probably the very things I like most about the drama. There is no spoon feeding at all. During the drama's first airing, I had an inkling that I would have to watch the whole thing again once it was done to get a better sense of how the story flowed. I was right... in the Sixth Sense, Usual Suspects sort of way. I've never seen anything else by KKT before but I find there's a bit of Terrence Malick to his approach, not that I'm a huge fan of Malick at all. But I did like The New World and I didn't mind The Thin Red Line.

I still wish the drama had been given 24 episodes though. 

[kdramawriter]

45 minutes ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

I'm also of the opinion that it's the "love conquers all" trope that's being deconstructed here. It's refreshing. I imagine it's why the director has vehemently refused to show the handkerchief ending because it would more than likely undermine that repudiation. I'm absolutely certain that the heartbreak at the end is quite intentional... that feeling of emptiness and yearning... is exactly how we should feel. So gained the whole world to change it but he lost everything that was important to him... I'm sure there's a lesson in it for all of us about the choices that we make.

The idea that no one can have everything... the idea that to gain something one has to give up something else... resonates right through the show like a natural law. Politics and love is a bad, bad combination. But I'm saving that for a future retrospective, IF I get there.

I suspect that you and I must enjoy the same kind of shows. All the idiosyncrasies of Moon Lovers that seem to annoy others are probably the very things I like most about the drama. There is no spoon feeding at all. During the drama's first airing, I had an inkling that I would have to watch the whole thing again once it was done to get a better sense of how the story flowed. I was right... in the Sixth Sense, Usual Suspects sort of way. I've never seen anything else by KKT before but I find there's a bit of Terrence Malick to his approach, not that I'm a huge fan of Malick at all. But I did like The New World and I didn't mind The Thin Red Line.

I still wish the drama had been given 24 episodes though. 

BOLDED ALL THE AGREEMENTS! HAHA!! I think KKT is a visionary, so it makes sense to me that he would not give in to all the fan service and demands from an audience. One of my favorite directors, David Lynch, said that once the work exists, it doesn't matter what the creator thinks. It's there for the audience to consume and interpret. I think KKT probably has a similar mindset: it's done, it's complete. Let it be. 

I'm a HUGE Malick Head! Even when I was kinda hate-watching Knight of Cups, I was still enjoying all the mysterious images and non-sequential story telling. I enjoy stories being told in innovative ways (which makes sense because what else does a writer do?). My favorite Malick movies are the narrative ones though, Badlands is excellent and so is Days of Heaven. I liked The New World too, for it's dreamy logic and focus on Pocahontas falling in love with the two men in her life. 

Also, does anyone doing the Dramafever rewatch can tell me if ALL of the episodes are recut from 3-20? I was only aware of the Director's cut for Ep 1-3 (in the initial SBS broacast), but if 3-20 is truly the KKT's new edits, then I will sit down to watch them with gusto!

 

[shamelessmiss]

7 hours ago, kdramawriter said:

I'm one of the few who loved the way it ended. I thought it was a beautiful thematic ending and the ending open to interpretation. Sometimes, great art is not suppose to wholly satisfy us but make us yearn for more. 

 

I didn't like the ending at first but now i think it's better that way. The impact was more intense and it really made and still makes us think. I really think the director did his job well.

[htk9207]

21 hours ago, pixelsticks said:

Thank you for sharing!!  It must have been a surreal moment and even watching the crowd videos...I can see how anyone would get caught up in the moments! Glad to know you had a great time!  Get any LGJ merchandise?

 

@antoniaclamens

 

My sister bought me a pillow. I can't upload the photo, sorry.

[kiinn]

I know I'm VERY late. But YAYY to hankie reenactment! 

I made a lot of fuss about this, but when it was really happening, I missed it. LoL

I guess, I've actually had my heart redeemed at SBS night. So, I'm pretty cool with anything now. hehe. 

I feel truly grateful to both Lee Joon Gi and Lee Ji Eun, who went the extra mile to mend the fans broken hearts. Lee Joon Gi is the most considerate celebrity I've ever known. I'm touched.

They said in the interview, they actually would love to have second season? Well....it's not a bad idea....but I'd rather them not to do it, if there're no good writer or quality production. I actually feel a movie would be ok. I've gone through 20 episode to see this couple get together ( and they didn't in the end), I don't think I can survive another season watching them being torn apart or still struggling to get back together. No, my heart can't take it. A 2 hour movie is fine. Plus, the director won't be able to change any richard simmons. It's released and bam. Can't alter anything. How about something like 'Allied' (with happy ending)

 

I don't think I'll post often, but I might lurk around every now and then. I love this thread, and I love SHR, but I also miss my life before my brain's tainted by Wang So. Hopefully this thread will still be alive, and be a room for new ppl who fall into the trap of Goryeo. *grin*

Here's our 4th prince promoting the Japanese DVD. Yep, give him your money, girls.

[tinniet]

Annyeonghasaeyo yeoreobun!! It's been awhile since the last time I post here, and I'm glad to see this thread is still very much alive (ugh so many pages to backread not complaining tho). I just came back from SK 2 days ago and I wouldn't lie that from the moment I stepped out of the plane til I walked back into it, I constantly tried to find even the tiniest bit of MLSHR (and LJG) It wasn't until the last 2 days that I came to Seoul and finally found some stuffs related to both.

So first, I finally laid my hand on the original MLSHR OST DVD I found in MusicKorea (a DVD store) after roaming in 0 degree C in Myeongdong, and guess what? After I finished the payment, the ahjumma at the cashier asked me something in Japanese (do I look like one? ), and when I looked confused and said, "Sorry?", she changed to Korean (okay I can blend in I will start living here now ). I told her I didn't speak Korean and finally she used surprisingly fluent English to ask me if I had a favorite Korean actor or boyband. I was a bit puzzled and only heard the boyband part so I told her I wasn't really into Kpop, but she eagerly asked me, "How about actor? Do you like any actor? I will give you a photograph of the actor that you like." Oh okay, so in this country of gimmick, even buying DVD would also get me a gimmick LOL and OF COURSE IT'S LEE JOON GI picture that I requested from her (and of course it was available, together with LMH, SJK, LJS and KSH I guess). I didn't have time to search for the magazines with LJG's pictorial, so this is such a precious gift for me

I also went to Dongdaemun to buy some souvenirs, and I found Lady Hae Myung and Lady Hae Soo here (a bit different hairstyle for Lady Hae Myung but nevertheless it reminded me to her) and a cute couple I'd like to think of Wang So and Hae Soo if only they got out of the palace and lived as commoners (see that signature ponytail of WS keke~)

Finally, the last stop before going home was Chungha Grocery. I didn't expect to find anything MLSHR here but apparently I found this hidden gem  (I'm fully aware that the queen/bride's attire and hairstyle is more like Joseon's one and these are indeed Joseon's royal wedding dolls, but the attire of Goryeo edition of the King and Queen doll doesn't look like the one that GJ and HS wore, plus HS was never seen wearing the queen attire except this wedding outfit, so these dolls are more appropriate to represent GJ and HS. The king/bridegroom's wedding outfit is the same as Goryeo's tho.)

That's all about my trip of discovering MLSHR and LJG in SK Thank you for reading^^

[40somethingahjumma]

8 hours ago, shamelessmiss said:

 

I didn't like the ending at first but now i think it's better that way. The impact was more intense and it really made and still makes us think. I really think the director did his job well.

What I really like about the ending is that it affirms that what they had together was real and meaningful even if it did end in tears. Even if she left too early and it became painful at the end, the few stolen moments that they shared together made it all worthwhile.

But at the end of the day, So couldn't have it all.

Such an existential drama.

 

[darker91]

JG update his IG again, now with actress Milla to prepare promote prescon RE: The Final Chapter tomorrow.

JG great actor even now he play in Hollywood, I hope this is his first start project hollywood.

[shamelessmiss]

3 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

What I really like about the ending is that it affirms that what they had together was real and meaningful even if it did end in tears. Even if she left too early and it became painful at the end, the few stolen moments that they shared together made it all worthwhile.

But at the end of the day, So couldn't have it all.

Such an existential drama.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. It was painful but realistic. 

[pixelsticks]

3 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

What I really like about the ending is that it affirms that what they had together was real and meaningful even if it did end in tears. Even if she left too early and it became painful at the end, the few stolen moments that they shared together made it all worthwhile.

But at the end of the day, So couldn't have it all.

Such an existential drama.

 

Slowly but surely I am getting there in my head and heart as well.  LOL  I foolishly and selfishly started KDramas because I thought they were brief, funny, slightly dramatic, relatively innocent (as compared to US TV) love stories to digest.  Boy have I had a learning curve.  

First watch of this drama can leave you feeling very empty and yearning.  The amount of times that the characters mis-communicated, missed opportunities, and made seemingly baffling choices was heartwrenching and seemed so reminiscent of a Shakespearean Drama (very Romeo & Juliet).  I literally shouted at the characters (and the writer) during most of episodes 18 - 20.  My heart kept hoping for a happy ending but my head knew this trajectory was the path that garners the most literary respect.  I can admire that.  

With completing the Rewatch with my housemate, I still cried and felt empty but it was more melancholy and not heartwrenching as the first time.  My housemate did not cry and actually apologized to me for not doing so.  That made me laugh.  We did have a long conversation about it and watch many "Behind the Scenes" videos afterwards to make us feel better.  

I am trying to forget there is a hankie scene because, I will admit, it is tempting to want to watch.  

Overall her last 3 episode comments included:

1. I'm Team HaeSoo.  She needs to get away from all that richard simmons. <<I am still trying to figure out why she was so Team HaeSoo and I was so Team Wang So>>
2. Gwangjong - not the man I thought he would be.  <<We really debated the effect of power/status and relationships here.  She could NOT understand how he could not have it all or just leave with HaeSoo.>> 
3. She was glad that JiMong was there for HaeSoo at the end.  She felt he was there to trigger her memories and let her know they were real and that she was important. <<I may not hate JiMong as much now...maybe>>
4. She admired Jung.  And Gwangjong for not acknowledging Seol.  
5. She admitted the tone was very different from the beginning to the end so that made you believe this story might end on a happy note, but she appreciated that it did not and thought it helped make this an even better drama than it could have been.  <<<my housemate...the existentialist fan>>>> 

 

But I will still admit that my heart sometimes needs just a happy ending because real life can be so richard simmons sometimes!  Escapism 101 please!  Any Kdrama suggestions?

 

[pixelsticks]

I wanted to add a few more things I found interesting in my friends' comments about MLSHR.  

She never complained about the music choices during the whole drama except for the dramatic ending of episode 2 (Dramafever original version) where So & Wook have swords pointed at each other.  The modern music there was too jarring otherwise she never brought it up again.  I believe the Directors Cut addresses this.  She really loved the instrumental portions and wished they were utilized more.  

She never mentioned editing flow or too many close ups.  American TV really utilizes the close up/forehead cutting intimate view ever since the TV show LOST.  I remember that was my first experience with that type of camera framing and it was jarring at first, but then it really can draw you into the character.  Plus visually it tends to follow the Rule of 3rds and is appealing to the eye.  Except for the almost comedic zoom into Wook in one of the later episodes, we did not have a problem with it.  

Actually, I LOVED watching Lee Joon Gi that way as he is so expressive in his acting.  At first, I hated watching IU close up, but then I have seen some gifs where the editor has slowed down the video and you CAN see subtle reactions/acting on IU's face.  It's actually very helpful!

And we both believe the writer dropped the ball on not addressing all the copies of the poems, or HaeSoo's diary (and any subsequent attempts to understand what she wrote).  We also debated that Wang So might have been keenly aware of JiMong and even HaeSoo as being from another time (not only King Taejo) and we were secretly hoping that his quick analysis of her emoji meant he had had some exposure to the modern world before. But this wasn't that type of drama.   

And for my 200th post...I know....

(I need that gif with sound)  Anybody have it?  

[kdramawriter]

2 hours ago, pixelsticks said:

She never mentioned editing flow or too many close ups.  American TV really utilizes the close up/forehead cutting intimate view ever since the TV show LOST.  I remember that was my first experience with that type of camera framing and it was jarring at first, but then it really can draw you into the character.  Plus visually it tends to follow the Rule of 3rds and is appealing to the eye.  Except for the almost comedic zoom into Wook in one of the later episodes, we did not have a problem with it.  

Ah, great visual analysis! I found that there were far more fans of the show in the international community, who've watched a great deal of American content. Hardcore Kdrama fans were NOT fans of the show generally, for the same reasons mentioned that drew me INTO the show. It's so funny to me. I liked the storylines that made you work for information and made you pause to think about character motivations. So often in Kdrama, you're hit over the head with the information, often in the form of flashbacks (sometimes only 1 min after the initial scene has played -- I noticed this a ton because I started watching the classic Secret Garden). On the one hand, kdrama's often overly direct and spoon-feeding style certain allowed a global audience, because almost anyone could follow the story without cultural context. On the other hand, this repetition of information is REALLY boring for sophisticated TV watcher. Moonlovers was a weird kdrama exception. It's like Kim Kyu Tae wanted to throw us into the world without my explanation and let us find our way -- of course, this is my preferred style of storytelling, so that's a personal thing.

I thought the cinematography was breathtaking at times (see any of the wide shots in the show), and really drew me into a filmic world. Even the close ups rarely bothered me b/c LJG often killed his scenes. And I thought IU dramatically improved after Episode 11, because I think the Hae Su character after her torture is soulful, deep, and much closer to IU's true personality than the weird over the top aegyo HS before Lady Oh's death. 

[40somethingahjumma]

8 hours ago, pixelsticks said:

Slowly but surely I am getting there in my head and heart as well.  LOL  I foolishly and selfishly started KDramas because I thought they were brief, funny, slightly dramatic, relatively innocent (as compared to US TV) love stories to digest.  Boy have I had a learning curve.  

First watch of this drama can leave you feeling very empty and yearning.  The amount of times that the characters mis-communicated, missed opportunities, and made seemingly baffling choices was heartwrenching and seemed so reminiscent of a Shakespearean Drama (very Romeo & Juliet).  I literally shouted at the characters (and the writer) during most of episodes 18 - 20.  My heart kept hoping for a happy ending but my head knew this trajectory was the path that garners the most literary respect.  I can admire that.  

Well, my first K drama was Dae Jang Geum so I had no illusions about cute and happy from that experience whatsoever.

Interestingly enough it was Secret Garden that brought me back to K dramas after that one-off. And then it was My Princess.

I'm not a person who likes sad endings for the sake of it. I like happy endings too when it makes sense to have them. I expect all rom coms to have happy endings and it does annoy me when rom coms turn into melodramas half way through. 

The bittersweet ending for ML works for me because it is consistent with the rest of the show. Knowing that it was an adaptation of BBJX obviously helped prepare me mentally but I still don't think the ending was sad and bittersweet just to fit in with the source material. The signs were already there. When Eun and Seon Deok got killed off, I was pretty sure that we were headed for heartbreak.

But often it isn't about the destination. The journey is just as or in most instances, much more important. Yes, they didn't have their happily-ever-after in Goryeo but they did have their happy moments... when they weren't dodging swords... much more than you'd see in most sageuks quite frankly. They even had a child together. 

8 hours ago, pixelsticks said:

Overall her last 3 episode comments included:

1. I'm Team HaeSoo.  She needs to get away from all that richard simmons. <<I am still trying to figure out why she was so Team HaeSoo and I was so Team Wang So>>
2. Gwangjong - not the man I thought he would be.  <<We really debated the effect of power/status and relationships here.  She could NOT understand how he could not have it all or just leave with HaeSoo.>> 
3. She was glad that JiMong was there for HaeSoo at the end.  She felt he was there to trigger her memories and let her know they were real and that she was important. <<I may not hate JiMong as much now...maybe>>
4. She admired Jung.  And Gwangjong for not acknowledging Seol.  
5. She admitted the tone was very different from the beginning to the end so that made you believe this story might end on a happy note, but she appreciated that it did not and thought it helped make this an even better drama than it could have been.  <<<my housemate...the existentialist fan>>>> 

 

But I will still admit that my heart sometimes needs just a happy ending because real life can be so richard simmons sometimes!  Escapism 101 please!  Any Kdrama suggestions?

 

I'm a lot more pro-Hae Su now that I've seen the whole thing twice. I was always to some extent but it doesn't mean I'm anti-Wang So.

I was going to save this for my retrospective but I will say this, if we actually look at the big picture... not just Ep. 19 and 20, it's very clear that Su really, really loved So. More than he ever realised and certainly more than the audience acknowledges. When people look at Ep. 20, they think she left him but if you look at her hallucinations, it's clear that while she physically left the palace, she never left him in her mind. I've come to the conclusion that she left the palace for three reasons: First, certainly to protect their child. Secondly, to protect So's kingship and thirdly, to protect what was left of the love they had for each other. She was terrified that the palace would destroy even that.

A lot of fans look at how lonely So is at the end and we all pity him. I do too. But we forget that Su was incredibly lonely herself in the palace. She wasn't allowed to continue at Damiwon, and she became the trophy mistress that she really never wanted to be. She couldn't marry the man she loved and became caught in a polygamous situation which she swore she'd never get into in order to help him strengthen his position in the court. To protect the man she loved and their child, she married someone to get out of the palace something she also said she'd never do. She had to sit around all day waiting for him. She had no friends in the palace and things were fast deteriorating between them. Bit by bit, everything that was GHJ disappeared. She gave it all up... for love. 

That's why I cannot hate Su at all. I think she showed so much strength and practical sense in what she did. Like Lady O, she gave up what life she had left so her lover and child could live on. Remember what she said after she slashed her wrist? Remember what Lady O said in the cave? "I protected what I wanted to protect. It's right that I should pay the price." 

And she did.

[kdramawriter]

1 hour ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

I was going to save this for my retrospective but I will say this, if we actually look at the big picture... not just Ep. 19 and 20, it's very clear that Su really, really loved So. More than he ever realised and certainly more than the audience acknowledges. When people look at Ep. 20, they think she left him but if you look at her hallucinations, it's clear that while she physically left the palace, she never left him in her mind. I've come to the conclusion that she left the palace for three reasons: First, certainly to protect their child. Secondly, to protect So's kingship and thirdly, to protect what was left of the love they had for each other. She was terrified that the palace would destroy even that.

A lot of fans look at how lonely So is at the end and we all pity him. I do too. But we forget that Su was incredibly lonely herself in the palace. She wasn't allowed to continue at Damiwon, and she became the trophy mistress that she really never wanted to be. She couldn't marry the man she loved and became caught in a polygamous situation which she swore she'd never get into in order to help him strengthen his position in the court. To protect the man she loved and their child, she married someone to get out of the palace something she also said she'd never do. She had to sit around all day waiting for him. She had no friends in the palace and things were fast deteriorating between them. Bit by bit, everything that was GHJ disappeared. She gave it all up... for love. 

That's why I cannot hate Su at all. I think she showed so much strength and practical sense in what she did. Like Lady O, she gave up what life she had left so her lover and child could live on. Remember what she said after she slashed her wrist? Remember what Lady O said in the cave? "I protected what I wanted to protect. It's right that I should pay the price." 

And she did.

oh man, making me fall in love with Hae Su all over again. Her strength is really hidden in sacrifice. Her long view was always right -- it is better to forgive than to hate, it is better to love and sacrifice than to be selfish and take. 

**edited to add: Most people think of Wang So as the center of this story, but I would argue that Hae Su is as much of a hero as he is. She doesn't fight battles or wield swords, but it's through her sacrifice that Gwangjong remained strong and left a legacy of a more egalitarian Goryeo. She knew what she wanted and she achieved her goals. HS is just as fierce as WS is in what she wants. She just does it in her own way. She protected the people she loved and died doing so. I don't know what's more heroic than that!

[pixelsticks]

3 hours ago, kdramawriter said:

Ah, great visual analysis! I found that there were far more fans of the show in the international community, who've watched a great deal of American content. Hardcore Kdrama fans were NOT fans of the show generally, for the same reasons mentioned that drew me INTO the show. It's so funny to me. I liked the storylines that made you work for information and made you pause to think about character motivations. So often in Kdrama, you're hit over the head with the information, often in the form of flashbacks (sometimes only 1 min after the initial scene has played -- I noticed this a ton because I started watching the classic Secret Garden). On the one hand, kdrama's often overly direct and spoon-feeding style certain allowed a global audience, because almost anyone could follow the story without cultural context. On the other hand, this repetition of information is REALLY boring for sophisticated TV watcher. Moonlovers was a weird kdrama exception. It's like Kim Kyu Tae wanted to throw us into the world without my explanation and let us find our way -- of course, this is my preferred style of storytelling, so that's a personal thing.

I thought the cinematography was breathtaking at times (see any of the wide shots in the show), and really drew me into a filmic world. Even the close ups rarely bothered me b/c LJG often killed his scenes. And I thought IU dramatically improved after Episode 11, because I think the Hae Su character after her torture is soulful, deep, and much closer to IU's true personality than the weird over the top aegyo HS before Lady Oh's death. 

 

I'd love to take a class in cinematography and movie styling.  It is fascinating what has changed in terms of camera angles, positioning, steady vs realistic shaking, focus and zoom.  And to also see what may be "trendy" and fall in and out of favor with audiences. The power of the image along with the words, when it works, can make unforgettable stories.  I struggle with creating both.  

 

1 hour ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

Well, my first K drama was Dae Jang Geum so I had no illusions about cute and happy from that experience whatsoever.

Interestingly enough it was Secret Garden that brought me back to K dramas after that one-off. And then it was My Princess.

I'm not a person who likes sad endings for the sake of it. I like happy endings too when it makes sense to have them. I expect all rom coms to have happy endings and it does annoy me when rom coms turn into melodramas half way through. 

The bittersweet ending for ML works for me because it is consistent with the rest of the show. Knowing that it was an adaptation of BBJX obviously helped prepare me mentally but I still don't think the ending was sad and bittersweet just to fit in with the source material. The signs were already there. When Eun and Seon Deok got killed off, I was pretty sure that we were headed for heartbreak.

But often it isn't about the destination. The journey is just as or in most instances, much more important. Yes, they didn't have their happily-ever-after in Goryeo but they did have their happy moments... when they weren't dodging swords... much more than you'd see in most sageuks quite frankly. They even had a child together. 

I'm a lot more pro-Hae Su now that I've seen the whole thing twice. I was always to some extent but it doesn't mean I'm anti-Wang So.

I was going to save this for my retrospective but I will say this, if we actually look at the big picture... not just Ep. 19 and 20, it's very clear that Su really, really loved So. More than he ever realised and certainly more than the audience acknowledges. When people look at Ep. 20, they think she left him but if you look at her hallucinations, it's clear that while she physically left the palace, she never left him in her mind. I've come to the conclusion that she left the palace for three reasons: First, certainly to protect their child. Secondly, to protect So's kingship and thirdly, to protect what was left of the love they had for each other. She was terrified that the palace would destroy even that.

A lot of fans look at how lonely So is at the end and we all pity him. I do too. But we forget that Su was incredibly lonely herself in the palace. She wasn't allowed to continue at Damiwon, and she became the trophy mistress that she really never wanted to be. She couldn't marry the man she loved and became caught in a polygamous situation which she swore she'd never get into in order to help him strengthen his position in the court. To protect the man she loved and their child, she married someone to get out of the palace something she also said she'd never do. She had to sit around all day waiting for him. She had no friends in the palace and things were fast deteriorating between them. Bit by bit, everything that was GHJ disappeared. She gave it all up... for love. 

That's why I cannot hate Su at all. I think she showed so much strength and practical sense in what she did. Like Lady O, she gave up what life she had left so her lover and child could live on. Remember what she said after she slashed her wrist? Remember what Lady O said in the cave? "I protected what I wanted to protect. It's right that I should pay the price." 

And she did.

Ahhh this makes me cry all over again! (I'll admit...I can cry even at commercials)

Yes I do agree I was so pleasantly shocked that they added the surviving child storyline as I was preparing for the rumored poisoning/miscarriage and frankly if that would have happened....I might have been more of a basketcase. It wasn't ALL awful at the end. It's just the memories/embedded feelings of my first reactions to the ending are so strong. Because...dammit..my inner 12 year old was devastated.  

And yes, her visions of So offering his hand, writing with her and painting with her were bittersweet balm at the time. I believe the visions were used to tear at the viewers hearts for what could have been if Soo/Su letters had been opened but then again...maybe not. Do you feel she was really trying to reach him and get him to come to her in those letters? Or what was her motivation?  

And then, Soo/Su listening to her song after it was presented as the song where the King knew he had fallen in love with a Court Lady? Be still my heart and cue the tearducts.  The build up of that last episode of all the emotional feels was so intense! I still have a hate/love relationship with it.  

I know Soo/Su paid the price, a pretty big one. I believe pretty much every character in MLSHR paid a price, some more than others.  Except maybe JiMong.     

13 minutes ago, kdramawriter said:

oh man, making me fall in love with Hae Su all over again. Her strength is really hidden in sacrifice. Her long view was always right -- it is better to forgive than to hate, it is better to love and sacrifice than to be selfish and take. 

**edited to add: Most people think of Wang So as the center of this story, but I would argue that Hae Su is as much of a hero as he is. She doesn't fight battles or wield swords, but it's through her sacrifice that Gwangjong remained strong and left a legacy of a more egalitarian Goryeo. She knew what she wanted and she achieved her goals. HS is just as fierce as WS is in what she wants. She just does it in her own way. She protected the people she loved and died doing so. I don't know what's more heroic than that!

Well said!!  

Edited to add:  I should be like Soo/Su and forgive this story for making me feel so tormented and not be so selfish in wanting the Hankie scene.  I know I am not heroic as her!  

[40somethingahjumma]

3 hours ago, kdramawriter said:

Ah, great visual analysis! I found that there were far more fans of the show in the international community, who've watched a great deal of American content. Hardcore Kdrama fans were NOT fans of the show generally, for the same reasons mentioned that drew me INTO the show. It's so funny to me. I liked the storylines that made you work for information and made you pause to think about character motivations. So often in Kdrama, you're hit over the head with the information, often in the form of flashbacks (sometimes only 1 min after the initial scene has played -- I noticed this a ton because I started watching the classic Secret Garden). On the one hand, kdrama's often overly direct and spoon-feeding style certain allowed a global audience, because almost anyone could follow the story without cultural context. On the other hand, this repetition of information is REALLY boring for sophisticated TV watcher. Moonlovers was a weird kdrama exception. It's like Kim Kyu Tae wanted to throw us into the world without my explanation and let us find our way -- of course, this is my preferred style of storytelling, so that's a personal thing.

I thought the cinematography was breathtaking at times (see any of the wide shots in the show), and really drew me into a filmic world. Even the close ups rarely bothered me b/c LJG often killed his scenes. And I thought IU dramatically improved after Episode 11, because I think the Hae Su character after her torture is soulful, deep, and much closer to IU's true personality than the weird over the top aegyo HS before Lady Oh's death. 

One of the most common comments I see among fans of the show is that the show elicits plenty of feels. There is a reason for that I believe.

The advantage of this visual-oriented approach aside from what you've said is that you're asked to feel a lot more intensely than what you would if you were told how you should feel. Images speak directly to the heart and allows your experience of life to help you interpret the scene and connect with the character.

It's a fascinating approach to character development. I loved it Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy. That director loved close-ups to the point of self-indulgence but it worked really well for a show about espionage where people wear masks all the time and it leaves you wondering who they are and what they're thinking.

I think there's a kind of realism to this ambiguity. I don't think we always know what we ourselves are thinking or feeling much less what others are thinking. And maybe it isn't just one thing that we're feeling and maybe it does take time for us to process. Feelings and thoughts can't always be put into words immediately. Maybe words are inadequate to the task.

The raincoat scene, the snow scenes, Jeong sitting by himself with the urn and Baek A bursts into the room, So rummaging through the unread letters, ripping through the first and then the second with Ji Mong looking on... Not a word... just the voice over of the letter. Just to name a few examples.

Wonderful stuff. 

@kdramawriter -- Amen! She's not given enough credit for being really heroic and when I typed that section up, I started tearing up myself. 

Lately I feel that I'm just writing apologias for Hae Su.

[antoniaclamens]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:34 PM, htk9207 said:

 

I really love your posts. I felt the same way about Jung, too. 

Thank you dear! i thought i was alone about Jung...

On 11/1/2017 at 0:09 AM, pixelsticks said:

Thank you for sharing!!  It must have been a surreal moment and even watching the crowd videos...I can see how anyone would get caught up in the moments! Glad to know you had a great time!  Get any LGJ merchandise?

 

@antoniaclamens Ahhh episode 17.  I hear that the Directors Cut is such a different experience than the DramaFever version so I need to rewatch it.  

1. And no, I didn't notice that when the kings die, it's not the heartwrenching death song that is played.  
2. And yes, dang Yeon Hwa didn't let a huge battle happen.  I wanted some more Wang So fighting.
3. And WHAT was the purpose of all the copies of the poem/song?  
4. And thanks for all the pics while Wang So is writing the copies for Hae Soo.  He does have the best facial reactions here.  Pouts and smiles.  
5. And evil smile Gwangjong is great as well.  I think he would play a great evil character someday...but will he ever?  
6. Overall we got to witness happy, sad, angry, frustrated and determined 4th Prince this episode.  And it hurt so much to watch everyone disappear. 

Dramafever version was the international version, right? i always  like better the SBS version... sometimes a great deal better specially in episode 17, everything was so rushed in international version. BTW i'm one of the few that didn't complain about the different versions, i watched both, they complement each other... in the end the more the merrier...

One thing i would wish is for more action scenes, it would be great if it was a 24 episodes drama, so we could have more fighting, an explanation to all the copies of the poem, more happy times from our couple, more developement of GJ reign, and so on...

He played an evil character in Resident Evil... i'm counting to finally watch him on the big screen even for 5 minutes...

@40somethingahjumma thank you so much for episode 12 restrocpective... love it as always love what you write. BTW about Soo.. my mind understand everything you said... but my heart disagree... she protected what she wanted to protect? well maybe, she paid the price for it? yes indeed. i remember when i watched final episode for the first time i wanted so badly for her to pay the price in the way she actually did (dying alone and living in modern time in regrets...) by now i calmed down a little. As i said i understand that she wanted to protect many things but, was the way she did it the only way? why always take Wook, Jung and CR's side and not So? what about not telling lies to each other??? why not saying that she understood him when Queen Yoo died? why hurt him so much?????? what angry me the most is her reaction after CR's death. No, my heart is still in pain and can't understand Soo. But i'll try to think about what you say some more because i really want/need to be in good terms with Soo. I love her nonetheless

Edit: Sorry i'm strongly So biased. can't be helped...