[Drama 2015/2016] I Have A Lover 애인있어요

[ayselluna]

 

Hello @jadecloud and @Claudia-ximena ,

Because I couldn’t help it , I come here just to say how I agree with your opinions about BS behaviour towards HK. To me, what he did during dinner party was all over the plate. I couldn’t believe that he said “this is my wife to be”. I beg your pardon?!?! Even if she was or had agreed to be his girlfriend, how could he impose the “engagement” condition? In special, in such context as that: a family meeting!

I would like to add that it doesn’t matter if JE is better, same or worst than BS. What really matters is HK feelings and wishes. And her feelings say: it doesn’t matter if JE is/was there or not, she never loved BS. With or without JE presence/appearence, her heart was frozen. No love feelings for BS. That’s enough.

Love isn’t about who deserves who. Unfortunally, one could reply.

I really can’t stand someone who pressures another or who sets traps to be in a relationship, even less if the argument is “s/he deserves it, s/he is so good”.  

Maybe it is related to a personal experience during my college days, when a beloved friend and a really great guy was in love with me. But I couldn't love him as a man. However, because his insistence and our mutual friends insistence (oh Nina he is such a great guy! Why not give him a chance?), and because my guilty feelings melted with pity (he was really a good friend to me) after more than two years of “I can’t” I gave in. It didn’t last long and only make him suffer more and put me in a really unconfortable situation (sorry for this personal note).

The fact is: I can’t stand pressure to accept a guy because “he is a better guy, he deserves more”’s argument. And I’m not saying that a guy or girl can’t pursue or try to conquer someone who s/he loves. But one have to know when to stop. There is always a limit, and one mustn’t take advantage of a girl/guy’s friendship to continuasly push his/her friend to accept his/her feelings.

Is there a difference between BS and JE? In my opinion yes, there is. And the difference is HK feelings.

 

 

Very well said!

Edited October 29, 2015 by ayselluna

[thegoldbug]

So I tried to put myself in BS and YK2's shoes and these are my thoughts:

BS

He wants to marry YK2 who he thinks is YK.  He knows that she had a husband and that husband as dead and that she was very pregnant but he has no idea what happened there and evidently has not tries to find out (the doctors would know if she had ever given birth).  He has kept this from her in what he thinks is her best interest.  He has provided her with a home, a job, and drawn her into the living world so to speak.  I'm a little confused as I've stated many times why he never tried earnestly (that we've been shown) what happened with her pregnancy and why he never introduced her to her former coworker (who was really concerned about her and wanted to meet her), Any of these two things may have lead to the discovery of her misidentification much earlier before 4 years had past).  I also question what he thought her reaction would be if she did marry him and as some time went by it came back.  If she was YK then she would remember having a husband that died that she hadn't been able to fully grieve for and a pregnancy or child. Did he think it would be ok with the fact that he hid this from her and married her despite knowing this or making an effort to find out about her pregnancy.  How could he expect to build a marriage when he didn't at least inform her what he found out.  At least any decision she would be making would be an informed decision.

YK

She does not know who she is.  She only knows who she's been told she is so she has to take it at face value. BS has told her that they went to middle school together and that she was his first love (I can't recall it having been implicitly stated if they dated or not).  BS has not only provided her a place to live and a job but enormous emotional support as well.  He adores her and would do anything for her.  She feels like she owes him more than she'll be ever be able to repay.  She knows if she just loved him and stayed by his side that would be more than enough but she just doesn't feel that romantic love for him.  She is confused and thinks maybe in time her feelings will change, that it's something to do with her why she can't open her heart to him.  She doesn't know who she is but knows someone attacked her because of something she may have done.  She thinks she may not have been as good as BS thinks. 

I think she when she hugged him in the hospital she honestly wanted to believe that she would never betray him and would stay in his sight.  That she truly never wanted to hurt him.  I think when he introduced her as his future wife she felt uncomfortable but she would never call him out, that wasn't the place to do it and it would make an uncomfortable situation worse,

I know there has been a lot of discussion on how/if YK2 is leading him on.  I don't think so.  I think it's been shown how stiff she is when he tries to be physically close to her and how she's gets silent or tries to change the subject when he or his dad ties to bring up marriage or proposals.  BS would have to be obtuse not to see or sense it.  He knows, he may hope it will change but he knows.  The hug in the hospital, the speech to JE spoke to me of desperation and fear.  Desperation not to betray or hurt BS because he means so much to her as a person (not lover) and fear that she would. Fear that not only would she betray BS but also that she would destroy everything that she knew (the past 4 years) and hurt her family, her friend, her lighthouse. Fear and desperation cause people to make rash decisions without thinking of the consequences of there actions.  She was reacting to her fear and desperation and I think she honestly hoped what she said would be true.  That she would not betray him and that she would stay in his sight.

 

What would you do if you were YK2?  She can't muster up romantic love for BS but she not only feels that she owes him more than she can ever repay but she also has genuine, non romantic affection for him. You are drawn though to a man who cheated on his wife with the sister of the man who has done so much for you.

What would you do if you were BS.  You love someone desperately that doesn't love you in the same way back.  You know that they are attracted to someone else in a way that they have never been to you.  Evidence points to the fact that this person is YK but there is also evidence that this person may be someone other than who you thought they were the past 4 years. 

In the end these characters are human and flawed.  It is with our best intentions sometimes that we deeply hurt other people.  Us humans often times react with our feelings without thoughts for others as we're so wrapped up "in the moment" we aren't consciously aware of the impact those actions may have on others.

[ayselluna]

I guess, SR made a big mistake, when she asked HK to invite JE. If she somehow forced him visit that dinner and if she asked HK to stay at home (as it should be), then I'm almost sure, that JE won't refuse. He is too weak, it's so easy to manipulate him. SR and his mother know this very well and tried to use it. But SR was too ambitious. When JE came and saw that he was cheated by the person (HK), whom he trust, he became too angry. It's not his normal state, that is why acted so bravely. He couldn't stay there not because he didn't want to marry SR (which is true), but because he needed to pour out his anger. Poor SR cant understand one simple thing. If she is mad to see JE with HK, so JE is mad to see HK with BS as well. SR wanted to show JE that HK with BS, so don't touch her, but didn't think about his anger at all. This one simple thing that can make JE act unpredictable. And we saw results.

I think that JE was weak vulnerable  because of what happen with his daughter.

He married HK against both his father and mother will.  He stayed a researcher when his dad wanted him in the business.  So he does have strong character. Also he did all his work without benefiting from his family name.  That one of the reason his father wanted HK to bring him into the fold.  It was also another sources of his resentment towards his wife.  Feeling she was manipulating him into a life he did not want.   His bother in law , sister and wife would operate with very wide moral compass.  He felt that his wife was going further along that path.  That she would destroy anyone in her way.  While he might turn a blind eye to others he felt she had done the same with the daughter and saw her as tool one which was easily replaced. 

 The sister knew his fear and thats why she and SR used the pictures to end the marriage.  However, now he getting closer to his old self. One that will not be railroaded.  He is now years latter finally remembering the person her married.  Now that grief is not as acute his ability to reason is better.  

 SR and BS knew JE feelings for his ex-wife/YK2  and that is why both were trying to rush the wedding and have the meeting. 

BS is selfish, blindly delusional and willful ignorant.  If he cared about YK, at all h,e would have found out about her after HS, Job, hospital records.  If she was married had boyfriend etc.   He done nothing but keep her  as his HS crush.   Someone he really did not know much about.  

I couldn't agree more! (y)

Edited October 29, 2015 by ayselluna

[-jade-]

 

 

Reading all these discussions make my mind more curious about another thing though..Do us women have a tendency to forgive men..who've cheated before...Wish there was a poll system available lol.

I think so. We as women tend to be hard on the woman than the man. I don't know if it's a sisterhood thing that a woman should never do that to another woman....... 

but do the women really forgive? maybe they are just pragmatic for the sake of their children and keep the hurt inside...knew of this one family where she caught him cheating with the nanny once. always wondered how she managed to keep staying with him but then noticed that they have separate bedrooms. so, it made things tolerable for her I guess as long as he fulfilled his father role well enough (which he did). @nearsea ~ have heard of men also staying in a marriage because of the children after cheating... in my place, it can be difficult for men to get custody if there are daughters (the court is usually reluctant to award custody of girl child to men because of fear of potential abuse)... @lclarakl ~ maybe it is an ego/competition thing for men and hence reluctant to forgive?

 

I think I misunderstood @nearsea question.  I interpreted it as 'do we as women who observe an affair, have a tendency to forgive the man and not so much the woman who he had the affair with?'

I've noticed on many threads where adultery is involved, we do tend to be harder on the woman in the affair than the man. Even in this drama I think JE, partly because of his good looks, blame is being minimized. Initially we all wanted his head. Then with the wall scene it's like "there's so much chemistry....ahhhhhh'.  "It's all BS fault, it's all SR's fault. They are the villains."  "JE always loved HK even when he was cruel to her; even when he cheated; even after seeing HK trying to kill herself and continuing his affair he loved HK; he didn't even like SR even though he laughed happily with her in her home and whistled while giving her a piggyback ride; he only slept with her one or two times although they were together for a couple of months before they left for the U.S. together; although in the 4 years he was gone and never checked once to see if HK was alive or dead (which he could have done very easily with a phone call or internet search) he missed her and loved her, etc., etc, etc, etc."  

We make all these excuses for JE which the first 10 episodes don't support because we want to see him and HK back together. We then continue to crucify SR (I'm part of it because I still don't like her at all, but neither do I like JE at this point either) while making excuses for JE.  I have to say that I loved when JE got up from the dinner at left, but I also loved what SR told JR. That was the first time I liked SR--when she spoke up for her siblings. In some ways, JE has wronged her big time. She deserves it because she knew better, but it also shows the type of man JE is IMO.

I think JE is the worst husband cheater I've seen in a K-drama. In the past I thought it was the husband from Ohlala Couple and the Fierce Wife, but it's most definitely JE.

 

I agree. Women, even educated ones, tend to be harder on the OTHER women, even if the husband was clearly the initiator/culprit. One well-known and excellent example is:

the Cli@to@s from the US. Even though H knows very well that her husband has been indiscreet repeatedly, yet she chose to persecute the OTHER women, and stood by, even lied, to keep the marriage and her *man.

*all men being equal

And women do tend to forgive and accept their men who has strayed and has made their remorseful return. Cheating from women, no matter in the East, the West or anywhere else, is viewed societally as being worse and almost unforgivable, than from the men. Somehow, the masses have been 'brainwashed' (or could it be the education? the media?) that men's needs for 'the deed' far outweighed those of women, and actually serves their good health well(jinja! what I've been told before by many) and so can be acceptable or forgivable. But for the women, it's nothing but shame! like that deserving of (in the old days) 'drowning the cheater women in pig's cage in the river'! In the modern days, women cheaters are looked at with disdain and disbelief while the men, they are either given a thumbs up for being 'capable' or merely shrugged off as 'just another men who can't hold it in', (@nearsea  your query...I will create a poll for it. Thanks for the interesting topic )

@lclarakl I'm sorry but I think there're some assumptions being made. Yes, re JJH and KHJ, the acting, the chemie, they are superb and explosive, and many do like it, including me. But NO, many aren't making or just making excuses for JE, including me. The BLAME is still LARGELY SQUARELY on JE, JE is still THE responsible party, MORE RESPONSIBLE than SR, if a comparison has to be made. (btw, this gave me a topic for a future poll - if one had to choose, who'd you rather ... cheater in remorseland vs crush in lalaland,,,?)

About the 4 years in US, nothing has been shown yet of what actually transpired, whether JE attempted to search for HK or not, whether JE looked into HK's post-D well-being or not, whether JE missed HK or not, felt remorse and realized his mistakes or not, no one knows the facts as we haven't yet had any flashbacks into those years in the US or outside of SK. But what has been said by JR was JE and SR were NOT living together when they were in the US. From that statement, the likely scenario for me would be that was JE's choice. Perhaps they live next door to each other. Also, perhaps they did have intimate times even if not co-habitating, but I doubt that since even from SR's mouth, words like 'sunbae only treated me as a hoobae' were spoken. 

Btw, a piggyback, whistling, kissing and sleeping with someone do not equate love, necessarily. Although I do prescribe to the idea that JE was attracted to SR 4 years ago, and apart from his anger, he couldn't resist the temptation she presented..Hence, he cheated. Blatant and in HK's face, he CHEATED. Many feel (like I do too) JE didn't and doesn't love SR like he did (and still do) HK, not just from assumptions, but from watching the past eps, and from JE's own mouth, and even SR herself knows and has spoken that fact. 

IMO, the worst husband cheater in k-land, is Seok Hoon from Temptation, but JE is a close second. Very close, followed by Woo Cheol from Second Time Twenty Years Old in third place. I must admit I haven't had a long history of k-watching, and haven't watched many kdramas with cheating theme. (btw, you gave me another topic for a future poll... thanks ) 

Anyway, my takeaway about men and women when it comes to the issue of cheating is this:

Men, They Will Unite.

Women, We Just Fight!

 Wae-YO?   

 

[-jade-]

Another POV.

I think BS is the one getting a break.   He is a very manipulative  person and is the one taking advantage of HK.  He has no claim to her and no rights to act as her boyfriend.  His pass with her is more figment than real.  I have know women who will not leave a home because they wonder how they will make because they lack job experience, credit rating and everything else to be  independent at an older age.   YK2 is a 4 year 40 year women.  How will she establish herself?  What work will she do where will she live.  Those daunting questions to everyone much less to some with no memory.   Also I wonder if know she was pregnant he keeps her close to yong children to fill that maternal instinct that he know she is longing for.  

So I think there is real fear and it more comfortable for her to stay than leave even with all the proposal it annoying but something she can handle.  However, as BS act more aggressive and possessive that balance may change enough for her to leave the nest.  She his guide and light house but more as teacher student than love of her life.    He knows what she is to him and keeps pushing things with every excuse.

If she really knew who she was she would have left.

If your an adult and you see a snake pit before you why enter into it.   JE rightly saw all the things that are wrong with his fathers company and wanted none of it.  His wife saw it and entered into it.   It changed her and not for the better.  We also see how the BIL and sister scheme when he was not part of the company and even now plot  when he has minor position he also knew this.   Seeing how the BIL and sister act they might schemed more ways to split up the couple.  Or JE and HK would have had more fights over work as she keeps trying to please dad with unethical practices and JE see it first hand.

HK and JE had reached an impasse in the relationship.  HK tried everything but really talking about the core issue and that was the loss of their child.  Every other issue from that point blows up out of proportion.

JE wanted out of marriage to "cold" calculating win at all cost HK.    He wanted that divorce before the affair, because she felt she was not the woman he married anymore.  This why there was no remorse on his side.  I believe if he came back home and she was still the driven ruthless lawyer living in China he would not have looked for her.  However, seeing her not herself was the trigger it got pass all his resentment and grief of her.    

We know HK never stopped loving him, that why she was willing to goto China so she was willing to accept him back even 4 years ago.   As JE needs to repent for his treatment of HK, before after and during the affair,  HK needs to think of who she married.  Is she the tool of his father or does she want to be his wife.

If both  work in the company will she support his methods or the families?  

Well, as for me, if I root for JE and HG, it is because they love each other.   I will be happy when HG is happy.  She had suffered a lot and become the victim.  For now we know that she has fallen for JE.  Her happiness is with JE.  I will root for them then.

If I ever forgive JE, it is not because he is better looking than BS or he is the main lead. It is because JE is the man HG is in love with. I just want HG to hold on to the love she deserves. If her happiness means being with JE, so be it. (I don't mean happiness as in smooth sailing or rosy garden and rainbow over them) Besides, the man showed he was remorseful in the last eps.  It is your call whether you can  forgive him, haven't or won't ever.

I think some expressed their sentiments  for BS, because it happened in the two last eps, he had been acting so possesively.  We did the same towards JE in ep 1-10.  We hated and were mad at JE  as well when he was such a jerk.  So, I think it has nothing to do with who is better looking or who the lead is. It just happens that JE has expressed his remorse and has acknowledged his being a jerk.  If one day BS acknowledges he has been wrong, we will 'forgive ' him as well.

It is okay to agree to disagree

 

@DelroyB  @Deandraluv  OMO...why do I feel like you guys are my doppelgangers (of the mind)? hehe... thank you for your excellent voices. I couldn't have said it any better.

 

 

[Lmangla]

.......................

And women do tend to forgive and accept their men who has strayed and has made their remorseful return. Cheating from women, no matter in the East, the West or anywhere else, is viewed societally as being worse and almost unforgivable, than from the men. Somehow, the masses have been 'brainwashed' (or could it be the education?) that men's needs for 'the deed' far outweighed those of women, and actually serves their good health well(jinja! what I've been told before by many) and so can be acceptable or forgivable. But for the women, it's nothing but shame! like that deserving of (in the old days) 'drowning the cheater women in pig's cage in the river'! In the modern days, women cheaters are looked at with disdain and disbelief while the men, they are either given a thumbs up for being 'capable' or merely shrugged off as 'just another men who can't hold it in',

.....................................

actually it would depend on whether it is a matriarchal or patriarchal society @jadecloud

remember watching this documentary and the difference in how bloodlines are traced back. so if it is matriarchal ~ property, family name and bloodline (genealogy/family tree) is traced through the women. if it is patriarchal (which is in most parts of the world) ~ the bloodlines is done through the male. (so example ~ jadecloud, daughter of appa-jade, who is son of grandpa-jade....)  this is why in matriarchal societies, a woman can easily divorce and also have multiple husbands.. so in those societies, there is not much of a stigma if a woman cheats because the bloodline itself does not change. in some matriarchal societies, they don't have a concept of a long-term marriage but it is more like they live together for a period of time and men leave. the women then raise all these children together like lionesses. but in a patriarchal society, the bloodline can potentially change if a woman ends up cheating on the man and gets pregnant ~ hence, one reason for the stigma. am not an anthropology/sociology expert and this is stuff I remembered from some documentary I watched long whiles back on TV. just sharing for something to think about...

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Lmangla

[Kfan7172]

Another big surprise/twist coming to us in future episodes ????????

Having just gone back to re- look at HK nightmare scene (my typo EP 10 not 11) the following thought come to me--
In nightmare HK has drowning flashback BUT does he NOT ave an actual scene of her daughters death -- even though she speaks about it 

I do not recall ever having seen that scene-- yes I recall that other people (JR ) have spoken about, but no actual scene ???

That accident and daughters death are a critical part of this drama and we know that HK feels very guilty about and JE blames her for daughters death.

When/ if at all, we get a chance to see that scene -- what is it really going to show us?

 

PS -- I just edited this post left out the word NOT above

 

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Kfan7172
Left out the word NOT

[-jade-]

So I tried to put myself in BS and YK2's shoes and these are my thoughts:

BS

He wants to marry YK2 who he thinks is YK.  He knows that she had a husband and that husband as dead and that she was very pregnant but he has no idea what happened there and evidently has not tries to find out (the doctors would know if she had ever given birth).  He has kept this from her in what he thinks is her best interest.  He has provided her with a home, a job, and drawn her into the living world so to speak.  I'm a little confused as I've stated many times why he never tried earnestly (that we've been shown) what happened with her pregnancy and why he never introduced her to her former coworker (who was really concerned about her and wanted to meet her), Any of these two things may have lead to the discovery of her misidentification much earlier before 4 years had past).  I also question what he thought her reaction would be if she did marry him and as some time went by it came back.  If she was YK then she would remember having a husband that died that she hadn't been able to fully grieve for and a pregnancy or child. Did he think it would be ok with the fact that he hid this from her and married her despite knowing this or making an effort to find out about her pregnancy.  How could he expect to build a marriage when he didn't at least inform her what he found out.  At least any decision she would be making would be an informed decision.

YK

She does not know who she is.  She only knows who she's been told she is so she has to take it at face value. BS has told her that they went to middle school together and that she was his first love (I can't recall it having been implicitly stated if they dated or not).  BS has not only provided her a place to live and a job but enormous emotional support as well.  He adores her and would do anything for her.  She feels like she owes him more than she'll be ever be able to repay.  She knows if she just loved him and stayed by his side that would be more than enough but she just doesn't feel that romantic love for him.  She is confused and thinks maybe in time her feelings will change, that it's something to do with her why she can't open her heart to him.  She doesn't know who she is but knows someone attacked her because of something she may have done.  She thinks she may not have been as good as BS thinks. 

I think she when she hugged him in the hospital she honestly wanted to believe that she would never betray him and would stay in his sight.  That she truly never wanted to hurt him.  I think when he introduced her as his future wife she felt uncomfortable but she would never call him out, that wasn't the place to do it and it would make an uncomfortable situation worse,

I know there has been a lot of discussion on how/if YK2 is leading him on.  I don't think so.  I think it's been shown how stiff she is when he tries to be physically close to her and how she's gets silent or tries to change the subject when he or his dad ties to bring up marriage or proposals.  BS would have to be obtuse not to see or sense it.  He knows, he may hope it will change but he knows.  The hug in the hospital, the speech to JE spoke to me of desperation and fear.  Desperation not to betray or hurt BS because he means so much to her as a person (not lover) and fear that she would. Fear that not only would she betray BS but also that she would destroy everything that she knew (the past 4 years) and hurt her family, her friend, her lighthouse. Fear and desperation cause people to make rash decisions without thinking of the consequences of there actions.  She was reacting to her fear and desperation and I think she honestly hoped what she said would be true.  That she would not betray him and that she would stay in his sight.

 

What would you do if you were YK2?  She can't muster up romantic love for BS but she not only feels that she owes him more than she can ever repay but she also has genuine, non romantic affection for him. You are drawn though to a man who cheated on his wife with the sister of the man who has done so much for you.

What would you do if you were BS.  You love someone desperately that doesn't love you in the same way back.  You know that they are attracted to someone else in a way that they have never been to you.  Evidence points to the fact that this person is YK but there is also evidence that this person may be someone other than who you thought they were the past 4 years. 

In the end these characters are human and flawed.  It is with our best intentions sometimes that we deeply hurt other people.  Us humans often times react with our feelings without thoughts for others as we're so wrapped up "in the moment" we aren't consciously aware of the impact those actions may have on others.

@thegoldbug Love your take!. Another awesome POV which I couldn't agree more with, esp. the 'us humans' and 'in the moment impact'.

 

About that question you posted, in my simpleton mind and my simple backyard, this is what I see:

BS has huge crush and 'loves' YK2

YK2 has huge gratitude for BS but no love

SR  has huge crush and 'loves' JE

SR stole JE from HK.

JE cheated on HK with SR.

How about having JE and SR's sin cancel out YK2's gratitude and BS' delulu? That way, every one of them can have their reset and start anew again. kkkkk ...If only love and life were just a math/science equation.

[ayselluna]

@lclarakl   

I will  say JE is more responsible as he should uphold his vows, and he told SR that in the beginning.  At the same time he had been asking to end the marriage and signed the divorce papers.  However, SR actions are more vile because of framing the wife. JE & SR  were both active participants the affair, though JE resisted SR advances longer.   

At 24 she knew what she was doing and wanted.  JE wanted to leave his wife and I think in truth he was willing to use SR as means to get a divorce and relieve his tension since he had not been intimate with wife after the death of his daughter.  However, SR was not passive she was active even when JE had not touched her yet.  They had not been intimate at the time SR and HK fought over the shoes. Also HK and her mother behavior, helped push those two together as JE sought escape from his marriage to cold and manipulative HK.  

 

SR fully knew what she was doing and wanted she was no innocent  and to think of her as such denies her intelligence. (in fact as the wife pointed out JE was the one SR was taking advantage of)  I think her charter is more vile because she acted with the sister.  She was smart enough to know why the sister was helping her and knew she was framing the wife.  (SR and JE will be back together since it is  50 episodes ) I think, that when, truth comes out what sister and SR did , that act will put  SR beyond redemption in JE eyes. That she was just like the HK he grew to despise.    

Another thing is I think HK and JE really needed  time apart.  SR became the false positive.   She became the focus of both of their marital problems.  When the real issues were occurring well before the affair.   

The best part about this drama is that all the characters are intelligent, selfish and flawed to some degree.  The only innocent maybe the original YK.   

If I'm not mistaken, it was JR that framed HK and told SR about it. SR just didn't open her mouth to contradict what was being said.....if I remember correctly.  No doubt JE and SR are active participants in the affair, but JE is more vile to me because he was married, she was a young inexperienced woman with childlike behavior (innocence as her character description says) who reminded him of a young HK. HK noticed that he was treating SR the way he used to treat her when they first met, that's when she knew he liked SR.

Again, I could be wrong, but JE touched SR first by following her when she was doing her work and saw her hair getting in her face. He then took her hair and pinned it back with paper/binder clips. He also took her face in his hands as if she was a small child to encourage her to continue her studies--she wasn't a child; she was a grown woman. There is a scene when he was leaving his daughter's grave, he received a text from SR and was a little hesitant about reading it, but did and it was pictures. SR is a grown man and he knew this young woman liked him.

She touched his hand in the elevator (he had already touched her first, umbrella, shoes, etc) and he turned it into kissing, showed loving care for her by giving her his shoes and getting pee'd off when HK bought SR shoes of her own, he's the one that was lying to his wife about being in the lab when he was spending the night in SR's place (she had to work that night), he's the one that when seeing her tipsy-- gave her a piggyback ride, he's the one that turned their relationship into having sex, he's the one that went to SR's job and proclaimed in front co-workers and customers that he chose her, he's the one that hurt his wife so bad that she tried to commit suicide, he's the one that after she tried to commit suicide still chose SR and automatically believed before the explosion that HK and sent the pictures of him and SR. JE thought the absolute worst of HK. He is also the one that chose to study overseas with SR and leave the country.

To me, I will always see him in a worse light than SR when it comes to the affair.

@Katrina Abdul Talib, I love your comment above mine.

Actually, it was Hae-gang who was calling Jin-eon (after the suicide incident outside the court building) while he was at their daughter's columbarium.

Also, it was Hae-gang who first saw the pictures of Jin-eon sent by Seol-ri, which she later confronted him about, making him aware of Seol-ri's feelings for him.

 

[Guest airgelaal]

Many of us mentioned many times that SR start her game only after she saw divorce papers. But wait a minute. What normal girl would send such pictures to her professor? It's even not important if he was married or not. That is why I think, she wouldn't stop until she get him even if he had happy marriage.

[maplekist]

In light if JE will be forgiven, I will wait until HK recovers her memory... Just because at the end HK will be deciding if her love for this man from the past and the second time around can surpass and overlook what has happened to the past.  JE has faults and so is HK.  Both had made mistakes in the marriage... only that JE has done a grave way of trying to escape.  HK had an accident not because of JE, yes she developed amnesia and this is her flight mode from all of the pains.  If JE run away physically, HK ran psychologically.  Both has to face again the pain of the past head on...but if they want tone together they have to face them all again together, beside each other and learning from their mistakes from the past.

I also ship the HK-JE couple, not because JE as the main lead who is rich and charismatic, but also because you can feel the strong love connection between them that no matter what fate decides to keep...

I know that the selfishness of the sibling SR and BS are based on the 'love' they got for the other person. But I am not really sure now if it is real love or just the possessiveness and fear of being left and abandoned again....

Looking forward to the weekend... 

[mdj101]

Thank you, @thegoldbug,  for a great post that sums up the issues as they must appear to BS and HK/YK2 at this point in the drama.  Minus all the things we see as the viewers of the drama!

And somehow, when HK/YK2 talked about the man who hit her in the head with a rock in an earlier episode, I wasn't sure if it was real or part of her nightmares.  But as it is mentioned here in posts since Epi. 18, I see more clearly WHY she takes it as meaning she may not have been all that nice of a person before!

Now I can imagine her showing up in front of someone who thinks she is HK, the corporate lawyer/"the executioner", who reacted violently ---throwing things, cursing her, chasing her away.  Just like the employees at the JE's office assumed she was her previous self, the Director, the President's ex-wife.

This also explains better to me why she stopped investigating back then.  But I think she will start over now --- first, most likely, by looking into "YK --the whistleblower".   Since JR identified her as that person.    Probably a lot safer way out where the factory was located.  No one there knew that YK1 looked like HK, Company Lawyer.

                                                       ******************************************************

This forum is so much fun!   Feels like being part of a Special Investigation Intelligence Force.  Like an FBI profiling division --- we have to do it all without the benefit of "hands on" investigation of the subjects, the scene, the evidence, etc.

Revising  as we go, relying on input by "specialists" with different areas of knowledge and experience.  Suspending final judgement. Always open to new data.             "CSI- Kdrama spin-off".    (just one analogy,  a favorite of mine though!)

 

I love the way members keep finding new insights about the characters and the drama's plot.   I just have such reluctance to forget about these people in between weekends!  A tribute to the Writer, the actors, the entire production team, of course.  And I'm happy to see the interest Korean media is giving the drama, too.

                                                ***************************************************************

Another point I'll make about the main issues of the drama.  IMO, the main issue is exploring the meaning of LOVE. What is "LOVE"?   We see people defining it very differently.  Each and every character, even SR, JR, and TS, believe they have sincere love for someone.  Each person believes their actions are right because of that love.    I'm not listing each one's "love" object, but just think about it?   Even TS has a great love, his DR. brother! 

And as viewers, we have the overview of their mistaken understanding of love, the way their twisted ideas may have begun, how their own needs drive them to protect their loved ones, etc.     The Writer gives us more clues about their history and shows us how they are  responding to events in the present moment . They are without full awareness of past events that brought them to where they are today.    In that respect, we are as much in the dark as they all are.   

Love, morality, class differences, our biases (gender, social status, good looks, age, etc) ---All factors being thrown into the story line for good measure --- just as in RL (real life).  All these, and more, affect our own lives. Dramas give us a way to think about them in more depth.     Isn't that true of all eras, all literature?    

Today is late Thursday afternoon  here!   Hooray!  Counting down until Saturday, 9 A.M. , ( N.E. Coast of USA) !          Approximately 41 hours!

EDIT:.... I am so slow!!!     How much does YK1 really know?    Not even anything about GN, her real mother, or that she is a twin.  Will Dr. be the one who lets TS know about YK1? Don't think he knows much about his brother's Company at all.  But YK1 and daughter will be in that hospital for testing!   Oh the possible meet-ups!  

                                           

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by mdj101

[chubbychub1966]

OMG YK is the cutest mom EVERRRR 

Cr. Twitter @SBS

[mdj101]

Just caught up reading posts here.

1)      I can see JE returning to his younger self --- the strong willed guy who could not be easily "railroaded"into changing his beliefs or giving up the woman he chose to marry (thank you, @DelroyB, p.167).   So, OK, I am seeing this return to his previous "self" as part of his remorse, his recognition that he had lost his way as much as HK had stayed from who she once was. The "new", immensely attractive HK, who was really being like her original self, was more to him than simply a cuter, more lively little babe to hook up with.  

          And HK, who wonders and worries whether she had been a really bad person, must also make some choices.  Very much as JR presented the choices to SR:   will you be  TOP CORPORATE DOG . vs TOP WIFE  (for JE) ? HK must remember the JE she married --- was she being his wife or more like the tool of MH.  What does she want?  

Of course we have talked in this forum about whether one role means you can't also be the other. And someone here mentioned that HK & JE might just be able to work together as a team in the future Company.

2)     Society's different attitudes  r/t  men vs women as "cheaters".   I think @Lmangla summed it up perfectly with her references about matriarchal vs patriarchal societies.   It's all about THE BLOODLINES.  Loved her comparison to the way the groups of lionesses group together to raise the young.  I see the male lion cast out after he donates his sperm .Then he is free to make deposits in all accessible "branch offices" without condemnation from the group!   Hah!  Brings us in line with societal viewpoint of "harmless sowing of oats", etc.

           Matriarchal societies are rare.  And I think occur in places where females control farming and cattle, namely the FOOD source.   Where food must be actively HUNTED/FOUGHT OVER/etc. and then men's biology/strengt wins and a patriarchy reigns.  MY version, but look it up online, etc. and I'm pretty sure I'm close to the "best guess" in Social Science

3)      Worst Kdrama Cheater Husband ? --- "Temptation", yes.       ---but really, the drama plot was twisted to create the onscreen  OTP viewer fans wanted to see --- recreating first couple's melodrama mega-hit from 10 years earlier!

I nearly coughed up blood myself I became so enraged after following the drama on TV and in the Soompi forum.  I'm more cautious in my forum participation now.

         

[mdj101]

@Stacey Wathan:

 Happy to hear your mother is doing well.  Please keep in touch with your regular doctors, too. No harm in keeping up to date with advances in treatment.  It's a good thing to stay open to information from all avenues.  Keeping an open mind is probably how you found her current treatment. Right?   Wishing you both continued good progress!      

Hope you are both enjoying this drama and this forum!

[ninaanin]

.......................

And women do tend to forgive and accept their men who has strayed and has made their remorseful return. Cheating from women, no matter in the East, the West or anywhere else, is viewed societally as being worse and almost unforgivable, than from the men. Somehow, the masses have been 'brainwashed' (or could it be the education?) that men's needs for 'the deed' far outweighed those of women, and actually serves their good health well(jinja! what I've been told before by many) and so can be acceptable or forgivable. But for the women, it's nothing but shame! like that deserving of (in the old days) 'drowning the cheater women in pig's cage in the river'! In the modern days, women cheaters are looked at with disdain and disbelief while the men, they are either given a thumbs up for being 'capable' or merely shrugged off as 'just another men who can't hold it in',

.....................................

actually it would depend on whether it is a matriarchal or patriarchal society @jadecloud

remember watching this documentary and the difference in how bloodlines are traced back. so if it is matriarchal ~ property, family name and bloodline (genealogy/family tree) is traced through the women. if it is patriarchal (which is in most parts of the world) ~ the bloodlines is done through the male. (so example ~ jadecloud, daughter of appa-jade, who is son of grandpa-jade....)  this is why in matriarchal societies, a woman can easily divorce and also have multiple husbands.. so in those societies, there is not much of a stigma if a woman cheats because the bloodline itself does not change. in some matriarchal societies, they don't have a concept of a long-term marriage but it is more like they live together for a period of time and men leave. the women then raise all these children together like lionesses. but in a patriarchal society, the bloodline can potentially change if a woman ends up cheating on the man and gets pregnant ~ hence, one reason for the stigma. am not an anthropology/sociology expert and this is stuff I remembered from some documentary I watched long whiles back on TV. just sharing for something to think about...

 

Hello,

It could have more to do with the ways the conception is concieved. For exemple, in Brazil many patriarchal native societies think that the womb is just a receptacle and the sperm is the only responsible for the conception. And more: conception is a process, a foetus need many copulations to grow well. In that kind of society, if a husband has to travel, he can ask a friend to help growing the baby through copulation (he will be also a kind of father). There are even societies when a married woman can have a official lover, same rules for the husband. Therefore, we can say that even in regards of fidelity/infidelity there are strong cultural differences

In general, I do think that social, economics and cultural factors influences the way we judge male or female betrayl. The bigger is the gender assimetry in a society, the more people will judge women and men differently. Consequentely, due of the level of assimetry, women will accept/forgive easier or not.

So, I think that a liberal (in her ideas), emotionally strong and independent (economic) woman leaving in a society more gender simetric, will be less willingly to pardon infidelity. Of course, if there are children things can change, but even so if a woman can stand alone, she will not easily forgiven. But, if she is emotionally dependent of the man, probably there will be a second chance.

The more a woman lives under oppression, the less she will have the option to not accept/forgive the man. The more her infidelity will be violently judge.

I don't know if women are more easier with men in regards to adultery. I will say again that it dependents of the environment where a woman evolve. For exemple, I can't se how a woman who has a feminist attitude towards society will be more easier with men. So, conditions and contexts telt here, imo.  

[Kfan7172]

Chap 18 --

After HK/YK2 basically tells JE I am here as YK not your wife -- if you only think of me as your wife I will leave now and turns to go --JE says --
"Throw away your name , throw away everything, and from today, from now, let's start over from the beginning "

Recent posts have noted the following about JE:
-- He is very intelligent 
--He has smooth moves

I agree with all above -- 
the words JE used to keep her with him (see above) were a 
Masterpiece of smooth--  for JE I think his hope is for her to agree to disregard all the past and start over from today, from the beginning----- 
What a Win Win for JE -- you are accepting me and agree to forget the past (even though she does not now remember anything, I think he is looking for this acknowledged agreement to forget the past)

My POV IMO

[ninaanin]

Another POV.

I think BS is the one getting a break.   He is a very manipulative  person and is the one taking advantage of HK.  He has no claim to her and no rights to act as her boyfriend.  His pass with her is more figment than real.  I have know women who will not leave a home because they wonder how they will make because they lack job experience, credit rating and everything else to be  independent at an older age.   YK2 is a 4 year 40 year women.  How will she establish herself?  What work will she do where will she live.  Those daunting questions to everyone much less to some with no memory.   Also I wonder if know she was pregnant he keeps her close to yong children to fill that maternal instinct that he know she is longing for.  

So I think there is real fear and it more comfortable for her to stay than leave even with all the proposal it annoying but something she can handle.  However, as BS act more aggressive and possessive that balance may change enough for her to leave the nest.  She his guide and light house but more as teacher student than love of her life.    He knows what she is to him and keeps pushing things with every excuse.

If she really knew who she was she would have left.

If your an adult and you see a snake pit before you why enter into it.   JE rightly saw all the things that are wrong with his fathers company and wanted none of it.  His wife saw it and entered into it.   It changed her and not for the better.  We also see how the BIL and sister scheme when he was not part of the company and even now plot  when he has minor position he also knew this.   Seeing how the BIL and sister act they might schemed more ways to split up the couple.  Or JE and HK would have had more fights over work as she keeps trying to please dad with unethical practices and JE see it first hand.

HK and JE had reached an impasse in the relationship.  HK tried everything but really talking about the core issue and that was the loss of their child.  Every other issue from that point blows up out of proportion.

JE wanted out of marriage to "cold" calculating win at all cost HK.    He wanted that divorce before the affair, because she felt she was not the woman he married anymore.  This why there was no remorse on his side.  I believe if he came back home and she was still the driven ruthless lawyer living in China he would not have looked for her.  However, seeing her not herself was the trigger it got pass all his resentment and grief of her.    

We know HK never stopped loving him, that why she was willing to goto China so she was willing to accept him back even 4 years ago.   As JE needs to repent for his treatment of HK, before after and during the affair,  HK needs to think of who she married.  Is she the tool of his father or does she want to be his wife.

If both  work in the company will she support his methods or the families?  

 

Well, as for me, if I root for JE and HG, it is because they love each other.   I will be happy when HG is happy.  She had suffered a lot and become the victim.  For now we know that she has fallen for JE.  Her happiness is with JE.  I will root for them then.

If I ever forgive JE, it is not because he is better looking than BS or he is the main lead. It is because JE is the man HG is in love with. I just want HG to hold on to the love she deserves. If her happiness means being with JE, so be it. (I don't mean happiness as in smooth sailing or rosy garden and rainbow over them) Besides, the man showed he was remorseful in the last eps.  It is your call whether you can  forgive him, haven't or won't ever.

I think some expressed their sentiments  for BS, because it happened in the two last eps, he had been acting so possesively.  We did the same towards JE in ep 1-10.  We hated and were mad at JE  as well when he was such a jerk.  So, I think it has nothing to do with who is better looking or who the lead is. It just happens that JE has expressed his remorse and has acknowledged his being a jerk.  If one day BS acknowledges he has been wrong, we will 'forgive ' him as well.

It is okay to agree to disagree

 

@DelroyB  @Deandraluv  OMO...why do I feel like you guys are my doppelgangers (of the mind)? hehe... thank you for your excellent voices. I couldn't have said it any better.

 

 

I would like to say to you all: "your words my words".  

Ironically, this week I watched a mexicain soap opera where the main male lead was a married man with a very sick woman (who died after 2/3 of the episodes), he used to say that he loved very much his wife, but was having a affair (long duration) to "answer his male necessities" (), and who falls in love with the female main lead. Well, the chemistry between the two was great, the main actor fenomenal, but I was since the beggining rooting for the second main lead - a super awesome guy, the actor was less good actor and had less chemistry with the female lead, but still I couldn't accept the main lead character. To my pleasure, the second guy got the girl !! (I think that the mexicain public didn't accept well the main character, in special because his cheating ways, and the writer changed the end).  (I have to say that I didn't know before the synopsys and watched it only because the female actress!) - Hope this ins't thought as off topic. 

Btw, I will just add that this mexicain character is the exemple of what I consider the fatal/worst/unforgiveble cheating: the man who justifies his cheating because his "needs". The second is the man who without that kind of justification, cheats on his wife while sleeping with her and saying "I love you" to her. JE's is one of the few cheating contexts which I can think could be forgiven: already broken marriage, no love words, no physical relationship (no sex). But, of course that to be forgiven he has to really repents and learn from the experience.  (that in reel life only, because in my life I probably won't forgive any kind of cheating from my husband!).

 

 

 

[DelroyB]

@mdj101

I think HK can be everything, she has it all in her to be  Top dog, Top wife and loving partner and mother.

Ambition and drive coupled with compassion works for her as YK2.   Her good luck comes from the same tenacious streak  that made her the executioner.   As HK her issue was win at all cost  throw scruples out the window now she is applying principle as YK2.     Also just like she wanted to talk out plans with JE.  She could  do more listening to what he says instead pushing her agenda.   Again YK2 shows us this side of her with the one sided contracts and the way she jumps to concussions on what JE is going to do.

As someone pointed out the personality largely remains.    If she took some YK2 back as HK and instead of blindly supporting the company worked to correct issues  that are unfair to the work force and clean things up instead of burring the the company would prosper in the long run and might then be attractive to JE.

 

[ayselluna]

DelroyB

I know BS is not being true to himself either..he knows who hk is...but I was only talking about hk..and that she should stick to the righteous character that she's  been maintaining after becoming yongki..fighting for cause,not being timid even after getting strong reactions from dishonest people like hk's father in law's company,she even followed that man who was having affair and made him pay for his action..So,hk ...the way she is now..rather came off imbalanced to me..at the rise of her present behavior.I was speaking of hk solely..and that she could have come clean to BS...rather than the status she is maintaining now..

This drama have it's share of grey characters also.If we talk about BS's character..then the question also comes in mind who is the better of the two..? When we compare JE to BS..then who is the one that torments his lover more? Who in his worst condition can't handle it anymore and hurts the person beside him? You sed BS can not handle HK in her real state...I think he'd rather be in awe of the real hk.Because the positive character that he holds,he would rather be able to affect hk with his way of making people smile..[I remember the BS four years  back who used to laugh and make the halmoni smile a lot too..].I've this belief and have also seen from personal experience that,nice people have this tendency of being able to co-exist without going into too much conflict/clash with people around them.And I think BS is one of that kind.Yes,he has not told HK who she is yet,but then again he must have his reason for it..I could be wrong.But when I compare him to JE,I am thinking these days that he has the abilty to change hk to a better person ...rather than JE.JE who lives on his whims is too volatile...and when struck by hardship,he has the chance to become his worsened kind again.

P.S/ All I said  is what I have felt..which could be affected by my own way of viewing things lol..by no means I am saying that this should be the truth lol.

Baek-seok is already yelling at Yong-yi2 and said he hated her ( just because she can't reciprocate his feelings).

I shudder to think of his behaviour/reaction/attitude to Yong-gi if his beloved daughter died and it would partially be her fault... 

Jin-eon also used to be be nice and loving until the tragedy struck their family. 

So, no-one can guarantee Baek-seok wouldn't make the same choices as Jin-eon if he found himself in his shoes.