[Drama 2016] Cheese In The Trap 치즈 인 더 트랩

[chrianna]

1 minute ago, coffeeboy said:

@MrsSoJiSub what can you tell us about "victim mentality". That's the label grandfather Baek put on YJ.

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YJ's father messed things up because he's a control freak and used Baek siblings to spy on YJ's school activities (or at least that's what YJ's mother implied), YJ learned that and felt betrayed. It gave him more reason to justify his "victim mentality".

 

So do you think the Baek siblings reporting back to the father was the big betrayal that YJ thinks Inho should be apologizing to him about?  i so want to know this back story!

[carolinedl]

@MrsSoJiSub That is exactly what I thought. I don't think he knows those things. I think he is slowly discovering another way of being being close to Seol. I don't want him to change but I would like him to be a bit less... hard. The ones I overlook (I amr eferring to your message before the one about Jung not knowing those things?). I know he is a good guy on other aspects. Again, I like Jung a lot! But I do feel he lacks empathy. Perhaps empathy si not the right word, but he certainly does not think of how people are going to feel and how his actions will affect people. Does he have to when they did wrong first and did not think of how he would feel? I dunno. Frankly, I dunno. I would... Seol would, no?

@bebebisous33 I think you are too harsh on MS. I do think she approached Seol because she felt a certain sense of connection, a connivance. She felt that her and Seol were similar at first. That she was not amazing or popular but she had many things. Hence Seol's commenting on how hard she worked to get those things. I perceived her asking to have lunch with only Seol because she was scared or unconfortable around Bora (who is beautiful and popular).

@chriannaYep, I agree with you. I feel a certain dose of empathy towards TA Seo/Heo (?!) because I totally see where he is coming from.

 

[coffeeboy]

5 minutes ago, chrianna said:

So do you think the Baek siblings reporting back to the father was the big betrayal that YJ thinks Inho should be apologizing to him about?  i so want to know this back story!

Yes, i think he felt that they got close to him only on his father's instructions.

As soon as he learnt that he stopped speaking to Inho and told him to "never cross the line" (flashback in the most recent chapter S4 ch22)

[MrsSoJiSub]

5 hours ago, carolinedl said:

 

True. But my question is: the wouldn't it have been better to just report it? Why did Jung had to seek justice by himself? Who has given him the right to do so? Yes, it was his wallet. Therefore you can be the judge? Isn't your vision clouded since you are too involved since the wrong was done to you? He went as far as thinking that he could use him later, which he did. Frankly, that's a bit scary.

Again, I LOVE Jung. It feels like I am judging him but I am not. Perhaps because I wish I was more like him?... I dunno...

I need to go grocery shopping so I will answer @bebebisous33 when I get back!

Had Jung reported him he would have lost his job. At least with the deal that was brokered TA Heo got to keep his job, earn money to continue to support his boyfriend, and it only cost him a few favors. I saw it as a win, win for both parties involved and I'm now curious who brought up the deal? I actually think it was TA Heo because he had more to gain from it (he got to keep his job and reputation -for a while that is-) then for me that changes a lot of things. Your word is bond. It doesn't even matter to me if he made the deal. He chose to go into this agreement to save his own neck then gets mad when it's time for him to pony up his part of the deal. It's all fine and dandy when Jung did for him but now it's time for him to do for Jung, he mad? I know Jung could have thrown away his own paper but TA Heo could have refused to do it and deal with the outcome of such a decision. But again he chose his own neck. I have a hard time feeling for someone who can't even own up to their share of events. At least Jung admits to his crimes when confronted. 

[themarchioness]

27 minutes ago, bebebisous33 said:

@coffeeboy @carolinedl MS wanted to be Seol's only friend because as her friend, Seol would have to help her! A friend in need is a friend indeed! She would have taken advantage from Seol's kindness! Therefore she always asked Seol for a meal, when Seol was alone! Why didn't she ask for a meal, when Bora and ET were there? She would have felt excluded as she wanted Seol to focus on her! By getting the help from Seol, she thought, she could get what Seol had! But she failed, hence she changed her appearance in order to attract attention from Seol. 

Her motivation was greed in the first place and not loneliness! That's why she didn't regret copying Seol! She got attention, she got friends aso! However, the good grades were the only shortcoming! That's why she always wanted to get close to Seol over and over again!

 

I think it's a bit overreaching to say that MS would've taken advantage of Seol because the fact of the matter is, that's not how things played out.  So we can't actually know how things might have been if Seol had approached the situation with MS differently. 

I previously posted that I felt sympathetic towards MS, and that I didn't lump her in the same category as the likes of Young Gun.  At the time, you had replied that you disagreed with me and explained that it was because "she didn't realise about her wrongdoings."  You also stated that MS was "greedy and her attempt to approach Seol weren't selfless, the exact opposite."

I didn't bother replying at the time because I figured it was probably something we'd never agree on anyway, and that's fine.  I'm happy to agree to disagree with my Soompi friends.  But the response I would've given at the time ties into how I would respond to your comment above, which is the only reason why I'm bringing it back up again.

I agree with you in that even after the confrontation in Episode 10, MS continued to blame Seol and refused to accept any responsibility for the downward spiral of her life.  In that sense, I can understand why you consider her a hopeless business with no hope of rehabilitation.  However, when I said that MS was in a different category from Young Gun and salvageable, I meant it from the sense of things could have been different if the situation had been approached differently from the beginning.  Which is pretty much what Seol realized after the fact, and was getting at when she was talking to In Ho.

You say that MS approached Seol initially because she was greedy and wanted to take advantage of Seol's kindness.  I'm sorry, but I can't help but disagree.  MS was a complete wallflower before.  People didn't know who she was.  I think what attracted her to Seol was how different Seol was from their other classmates.  She actually paid attention to MS during class assignments, was kind to her, etc.  In essence, she found Seol approachable.  Certainly it was not wise of her to show up after the break completely decked out as Seolv.2, but I saw that as more being socially deficient than someone with sinister intentions.  She was merely trying to emulate someone she idolized, in the same way that a fan of a Kpop group might try and dress like their favorite star.  Even with the stuffed lion, we did see that her initial reaction upon finding it was that she would return it.  It was only after Bora kept hammering after her that she turned defensive and went down the alternative path.

Every person, at every moment of their life, has multiple paths to choose from.  The path we choose predetermines the outcome.  That was true of MS.  And that was also true of Seol.

What would have happened if Seol had accepted one of those lunch invitations that MS kept throwing her way when they returned from vacation?  As I said at the beginning, we'll never know.  But what could have happened is that after sharing a meal, Seol might have seen that MS was just this really insecure girl who yearned for friendship.  Knowing Seol, her kindness, and her predilection for helping the weak, I can well envision her taking MS under her wing.  She probably would've helped MS see that trying to be like her wasn't the best idea, and would've helped her to find her own persona instead.  It is for this reason that I have consistently held that MS is not like the others who have been dark and twisted from the beginning, and said instead that she is misguided.  It's also why I still insist that there is hope for a character like her.

And do I blame Seol for not being MS friend when MS asked for it?  Absolutely not.  I think her reaction at the time entirely realistic and probably would've done the same had I been in her shoes.  But life is all about what-might-have-been's and what-if's.  That was the realization Seol had after her fight with MS.  And that too is also something perfectly emblematic of real life.  How many times have we, ourselves, stumbled through a situation and later realized, "Ah, perhaps if I'd handled things differently from the beginning, it might have been different?"  It's experiences like these that help a person learn and grow.

This too was a learning experience for Seol.

Honestly, her realization about MS was probably one of my favorite Seol moments so far because it perfectly encapsulates the awesomeness of her character.  She's empathetic towards others and she's also honest with herself.  I love that.

Oh, and in final answer to your question above about how come MS didn't ask Seol to eat when other people, like Bora and Euntak, were around.  I don't think it's because she wanted to monopolize Seol or anything like that.  As I mentioned above, I think it had more to do with the fact that MS felt super insecure and overwhelmed by the others.  You must admit, the others, including Bora, are very loud personalities.  Bora's immediate attack of MS over dressing like Seol and having the lion doll in her possession is only proof of that.  It's no wonder that she wouldn't seek out their company; she couldn't.  It's hard enough for a shy and severely introverted person to approach even one person, so it makes complete sense to me that she'd stat out small and approach only Seol who is the most normal one of that crew!

Anyway, I don't expect this post to have your changed mind at all.  And as I also stated above, that's perfectly fine.  Happy to agree to disagree!  But to the extent that this provides some alternate perspective for you to consider, I thought I would share my thoughts.

[carolinedl]

Was it TA Heo? That would be really interesting!

Yeah I see what you mean. But I can't help feeling bad for TA Heo too. That sometimes you agree to things but you don't really realize what you agree for...

I still feel that Jung decides on his own who to punish and why way too much. Super-hero complex? Judge complex? You see what I mean. Of course, the other question is what can he do. Not much I agree. If he plays along, he is a pushover, a Hugu. Which he was in school...

[namyo]

I'm sucker for the soundtracks of dramas. CITT isn't the exception.

I love this song, darn the whole soundtrack

 

[bebebisous33]

52 minutes ago, carolinedl said:

@MrsSoJiSub That is exactly what I thought. I don't think he knows those things. I think he is slowly discovering another way of being being close to Seol. I don't want him to change but I would like him to be a bit less... hard. The ones I overlook (I amr eferring to your message before the one about Jung not knowing those things?). I know he is a good guy on other aspects. Again, I like Jung a lot! But I do feel he lacks empathy. Perhaps empathy si not the right word, but he certainly does not think of how people are going to feel and how his actions will affect people. Does he have to when they did wrong first and did not think of how he would feel? I dunno. Frankly, I dunno. I would... Seol would, no?

@bebebisous33 I think you are too harsh on MS. I do think she approached Seol because she felt a certain sense of connection, a connivance. She felt that her and Seol were similar at first. That she was not amazing or popular but she had many things. Hence Seol's commenting on how hard she worked to get those things. I perceived her asking to have lunch with only Seol because she was scared or unconfortable around Bora (who is beautiful and popular).

@chriannaYep, I agree with you. I feel a certain dose of empathy towards TA Seo/Heo (?!) because I totally see where he is coming from.

 

@themarchioness Yes, you might call me too harsh! I won't feel sorry for someone who is lazy: 

- she didn't prepare seriously a presentation twice (the first one where she even skipped the meetings ane never sent the papers / she copied Seol's work so that she saved her some hard work and Yoo Jung knew about her tendency!!)

- failed with her test too busy thinking about Seol and blaming her for the failed test (episode 10),

- left Seol alone although the latter needed a hand! [episode 6) This would have been the opportunity to get close to Seol, but she allows DY to drag her out of the bar! 

Her lack of confidence can't excuse her laziness!!!

As for their similarity, you're right. She approached Seol because of that. She chose the person who was close to her status: not really popular and more on her own! When Seol asked her for the book, she could have engaged the conversation after class, but it didn't happen. Seol talked to her many times (book, borrowing the laptop) and she had many times the opportunity to approach her, while Seol was alone! To her, Seol seems to be easy to be approached! But DY had already approached her (she took her away from the bar aso) therefore the reason for approaching her was a selfish reason. Seol seems to be weak! She thought, if she could become Seol's friend, she would get recognition from Seol and feel better! So in eyes, her relationship with Seol was more for a selfish reason! She had no genuine interest to get to know Seol! 

First, I didn't see MS so negatively. To me, YG was really terrible and he still is! But after watching the episodes again, where I really observed MS, I came to a different conclusion! She lied to Seol many times and even before changing her appearances! Why didn't she do her work for the presentation? Was it because she wasn't Seol's friend? No, this was not the reason! Was it because she couldn't do it? If so, why didn't she go to the meetings and ask for more help!? I see her SMS as a sign that she was lazy. And the confrontation between MS and Seol proved it: "I had to work hard for that!!" said Seol! MS told her, she wanted to have the same things like her: friends, good grades and a boyfriend! Her words illustrate her greed and she might have not realised it! I don't know but just because MS was quiet and shy, this doesn't mean, she is a nicer person! This association is to me a prejudice!

@chrianna As for the unlocked door of the office, well it is here different at my school! You can't enter the office, if there is no secretary around!! The door is closed! It is the rule! Even as a teacher, I can't open the door of our secretary office with my school key! Each test for the high school diploma is locked in a vault, until it is delivered to the responsible teacher!! You have to sign documents for that! That's why I see it differently! Imagine, each sheet of paper is counted and numbered, the words in their tests (essays) are counted! We have to make sure that nothing gets missing! Everything is registred in case of a law suit!!     

[Chipibela]

5 hours ago, namyo said:

Darn I'm definitely watching the 10 episodes again apparently I missed something in episode 7. Maybe there was a discussion here about it but since the thread is fast I probably missed it.

But someone in tumblr mentioned this. After that awkward/cute kiss on the cheek. When Seol and her brother were waiting for the rain to stop and In Ho saw them and walked them. In Ho saw Jung with his umbrella and even waved at him. Darn I missed that part.

 

 

And here he's waving to Jung

 

DON'T QUOTE GIFS; VIDEOS AND PICTURES!! 

Not cool In Ho, not cool.

I actually went to see that scene and indeed he was waving. And he saw Jung standing there.

source

Yes its true... He made it on purpose! He saw him standing there  and made sure that he whitnessed his arms over her and waved as if saying: Watch me leave with her! It was cold and meant to hurt Jung.  I really believe that In Ho was already falling for Seol way before the tenth episode but didn't aknowlged it. That second lead syndrome has been here for a long time now.. began in a very subtle way, with little things... but became bigger and bigger. At least its been my perception throughout of the drama. However its just one sided...Seol is totally for Jung..she never showed nothing but friendship and care for In Ho, and thats my perception also throughout all of the episodes. Even if she never told Jung that she likes him, with these words, she did say she likes to be with  him, says that she missed him.. and i dont need to hear them because i can feel it... ai'm on the outside! .She loves Jung.. Yes loves, not likes... but she doesn't aknowleged it.. as she's asked herself inumerous times: That feelling that i don't Know what it is... What is this feelling???  while narrating....  She does not know what it is But at 15/16 February she will discover

[bebebisous33]

@themarchioness @carolinedl I wanted to add that MS tried to take advantage of Seol and it was with the group presentation. Did she help Seol in that matter? No, not at all! She received from Seol the paper and when she presented her part, she had no idea what she was talking about! No to me, it looked like she had done nothing at all! If she had tried to prepare it, she could have known at least something. but she didn't! The SMS she sent were so many, she was acting as if she was lost and it was too complicated! But she was a third year student like Seol! How come that she didn't know anything at all?

To me, all these are clues that MS was lazy and was trying to take advantage of Seol! That's why I say that MS is not really different from SC. She only used a different method! Just because she isn't obvious like SC, this doesn't mean, she should be judged less harshly. The result is the same: she did nothing and this has nothing to do with lack of confidence! She never tried to work hard and the confrontation proved it in my opinion! YJ realised MS' laziness! That's why I stopped feeling sorry for MS! Sure, Bora wasn't very nice with MS... and I won't argue with that. But what strikes me is that noone is mentioning how MS worked! It's totally overlooked and only focused on her trying to copy Seol! But this is just a part of the problem! 

[themarchioness]

15 minutes ago, bebebisous33 said:

@themarchioness @carolinedl I wanted to add that MS tried to take advantage of Seol and it was with the group presentation. Did she help Seol in that matter? No, not at all! She received from Seol the paper and when she presented her part, she had no idea what she was talking about! No to me, it looked like she had done nothing at all! If she had tried to prepare it, she could have known at least something. but she didn't! The SMS she sent were so many, she was acting as if she was lost and it was too complicated! But she was a third year student like Seol! How come that she didn't know anything at all?

To me, all these are clues that MS was lazy and was trying to take advantage of Seol! That's why I say that MS is not really different from SC. She only used a different method! Just because she isn't obvious like SC, this doesn't mean, she should be judged less harshly. The result is the same: she did nothing and this has nothing to do with lack of confidence! She never tried to work hard and the confrontation proved it in my opinion! YJ realised MS' laziness! That's why I stopped feeling sorry for MS! Sure, Bora wasn't very nice with MS... and I won't argue with that. But what strikes me is that noone is mentioning how MS worked! It's totally overlooked and only focused on her trying to copy Seol! But this is just a part of the problem! 

 

I suppose it depends on what evidence you want to use to support your view.  Not contributing to group assignments, plagiarizing another student's work, I don't condone any of those behaviors, but I don't think it makes a person crazy either.   I just think it makes her a poor student.  That's why I don't factor those things into my analysis.

To the extent that you find her similar to Sang Chul, I won't disagree with you there.  I think he's a poor student too.  But I don't think he's crazy either.

For me, psycho level is Young Gun.  Sang Chul, on the other hand, is an annoying, leech of a classmate.  But he's not all bad either.  And that's my point with MS.  She may have turned out psycho, but if matters had been approached differently from the get go, she may not have reached that level.  She may have just turned out to be another annoying, leech of a classmate . . . the type that seems to be alarmingly common at this school that Seol attends! 

[chrianna]

3 minutes ago, themarchioness said:

 

I suppose it depends on what evidence you want to use to support your view.  Not contributing to group assignments, plagiarizing another student's work, I don't condone any of those behaviors, but I don't think it makes a person crazy either.   I just think it makes her a poor student.  That's why I don't factor those things into my analysis.

To the extent that you find her similar to Sang Chul, I won't disagree with you there.  I think he's a poor student too.  But I don't think he's crazy either.

For me, psycho level is Young Gun.  Sang Chul, on the other hand, is an annoying, leech of a classmate.  But he's not all bad either.  And that's my point with MS.  She may have turned out psycho, but if matters had been approached differently from the get go, she may not have reached that level.  She may have just turned out to be another annoying, leech of a classmate . . . the type that seems to be alarmingly common at this school that Seol attends! 

keep in mind that she also got royally played by Young Gon.  every time she was about to back out of a lie or just stop, YG was there to keep egging her on . . . plus she got more attention when she kept going . . . 

[themarchioness]

8 minutes ago, chrianna said:

keep in mind that she also got royally played by Young Gon.  every time she was about to back out of a lie or just stop, YG was there to keep egging her on . . . plus she got more attention when she kept going . . . 

 

Yes!  Exactly.

This is where I wish MS had fallen into the hands of someone like Seol versus Young Gun.  Again, not blaming Seol for the choices she made in that regard.  But there is definitely room for regret, and I share in Seol's sentiments of "what might have beens."

[bebebisous33]

@themarchioness But I don't condem MS for going crazy! I judge her harshly because of her poor quality as student and her attitude towards work! She is lazy and her attempts to get close to Seol were made for a selfish reason (she approached Seol to make her life easier: getting her work done by Seol) and she uses the victim's mentality to get sympathy!

"I had no friend and noone would recognise me!" That's why I tried to copy you.. I wanted to get close to you!"

No, here she is lying to herself and to the others. She isn't honest in my opinion until she explodes: "I wanted to have the things you have!"

That's why I see her as lazy and greedy and judge her harshly! 

Just like I have no sympathy for SC!

[bebebisous33]

Just because she is too stupid to notice that she is used by YG, I should feel sorry for her? Oh no, she was played by the devil! As if she had no free will! She believed him because she wanted to. When she was confronted by YJ and the truth, she refused to accept it because it would have meant, she has to question herself! But she never did, unlike YJ who keeps asking himself (Am I strange?) When she hears harsh words from YJ, she  starts blaming Seol again instead of YJ!  

No, she is a grown-up person, then she isn't insane! If she was, she wouldn't know what is right and wrong! But she knew it since she revealed it during the confrontation! 

Although Seol has her flaws, blaming her for not allowing MS to become her friend is definitely wrong in my opinion. What if she had accepted MS' invitations, MS would have been nice to her! To me, it wouldn't have changed a thing. She would have taken advantage of Seol's kindness. 

[carolinedl]

@bebebisous33 I see where you are coming from, I really do. But MS is only human. She is weak, has no will power. So many people are like that in the world unfortunately. But like Jung, she probably had not reason to believe otherwise, that there are other ways to do things, in her case, that she was better. YG said the words she had wanted to hear all along: you are good, you are nice, you are better than someone (it happened to be Seol because hse mattered to MS)! He turned the situation around. (My comparaison between Jung and MS is very glumsy, they are very different; I am just comparing two situations).

I did like you saying that MS was lazy. It's true that her lack of work is really astonishing. How can she expect to be like Seol if she is missing the important part: that you need to work to get what you want. But there is more than that, than wanting to have what she has. Why dress up like her than? I think it did start because she looked up to her. Looking up to her just turned into jealousy. That happens very often in real life too!!

Also, is there anyone blaming Seol for not becoming friends with MS? Not at all. But she did recognize that things could have been different if she had. She did not and that's the end of that. I don't think seeing the potentiality necessarily means that anyone is to blame for how things turned out (except perhaps YG coz he made it worse!).

I don't think we'll ever agree, and that's fine. But what I like about the whole story was how realistic it was (expect the excessive make-over; ok for style and make-up but the hair!! ha ha): believe me, it does happen in the real world. Jealousy makes one does stupid things.

ETA: Gosh, I also have sympathy for SC!! What is wrong with me? Ha ha!! That scene when his mom calls got me all teary-eyed!!

[NRGchick]

Popping in to say that there are all kinds of people that we meet everyday. For MS, she was weak and easily manipulated. She had low self esteem and YG came by and provided the support to make her feel better (for his own purposes) and use her to needle Seol. Does YG actually like or hate Seol - the line is not very clear.

As for the scene in the library where she tells Seol she saw YJ near the computer, she was trying to be friends with Seol and Seol was trying to find out who changed her schedule. She thought she was being helpful to Seol (not necessarily targeting YJ as the mastermind). It was Seol who already had a prejudice against YJ and jumped to the conclusion that it was him who changed her schedule. [I am not blaming Seol as well because we do jump to conclusions at times too, right?)

What else can be the evidence that it was not YJ would be the fact that he changed classes to be with her (not that she knew it). I mean he changed from a professor who people were frantically trying to get into his class to Prof Kang, the hard nosed professor.

*PEACE*

EDIT: I feel that the fight was good for MS as well. A form of catharsis where all her anger and frustrations came bursting out and now she needs the time to reflect on what has happened. The old MS would never (I believe) have done the abuse to that poor lion.

[themarchioness]

31 minutes ago, carolinedl said:

ETA: Gosh, I also have sympathy for SC!! What is wrong with me? Ha ha!! That scene when his mom calls got me all teary-eyed!!

 

It's not just you!!!  I am by no means a Sang Chul fan.  I tolerate him as much as Seol does.  But man, I just finished rewatching Episode 1.  And when we reached that part where Seol narrates in a voiceover that she never was able to figure out who changed her schedule, but that she's decided to think the person was someone more desperate than her, and then it cuts to a scene of Sang Chul in his goshiwon spouting lies at his mother so she won't worry . . . I admit, I did a little *sniff*. 

It's amazing how much one forgets even when they're following along closely, and because I clearly had forgotten that scene, I was glad to be reminded of it.  I realized that for the most pathetic of people, even when you're actively disliking them, they're capable of being pitied too.  I think that's what makes this story and this drama really shine.  There are aspects of the webtoon/drama that clearly off the charts, but there are other parts of both like this that are so true to life.  It's thought-provoking.

[honeywell]

Ok explain this for me.  I've watched episode 1 probably 5 times now and the timeline is still a little iffy for me.  Did Sol end up taking that year off when she got drunk?  Or did Jung stop her because of that scholarship?   For some reason I thought Sol took off from school twice.  Also, did Jung start liking Sol somewhere in between when they first met and when Jung got sick at the restaurant? 

[Lissabonni]

33 minutes ago, honeywell said:

Ok explain this for me.  I've watched episode 1 probably 5 times now and the timeline is still a little iffy for me.  Did Sol end up taking that year off when she got drunk?  Or did Jung stop her because of that scholarship?   For some reason I thought Sol took off from school twice.  Also, did Jung start liking Sol somewhere in between when they first met and when Jung got sick at the restaurant? 

 

Somehow, I have this crazy idea that the first scene of the drama, where Seol is drunk and babbling that she's going to take off college time again because of YJ, is the party that they were advertising when YJ was sick and Seol took care of him and he changed his opinion of Seol.

I don't know if this makes sense but that party took place in the day after and when Seol fell, YJ seemed really concerned about her, thing that wouldn't be possible if it was during the period that he disliked her... 

The party theme also appeared to be the end of semester and right after the flashback, Seol found out that she gain the scholarship and began a new semester.

Edit: So Seol does the 1st year but stops due financial issues. When she returns to college to her second year, she meets YJ Sumbae. At the end of the 2year she wants to stop again because of him but she wins the scholarship and began her 3rd year. YJ is her Sumbae because he's in his fourth year. Does this make any sense?

It is also confuse in the beginning of the webtoon, with so many flashbacks...