Joo Won 주원 [Current Drama 2024 - The Midnight Studio/ 야한(夜限) 사진관]

[flutterby06]

20 hours ago, kittyna said:

Seeing JW's stats so far raises an interesting question for me re: the results. And I want to pose it to you guys to hear your response: would you rather JW be popular or underrated - and why?

 

It's actually really thought-provoking once you let it sit in your brain for a while (and if you are willing to be brutally honest with yourself), so I'm curious where you guys end up going with this  

 

Note: while it is possible for someone to be both popular and underrated at the same time, assume for the purposes of this thought experiment that you have to choose either one

 

(I was thinking of skipping the poll because I do not follow strongly anyone in the third segment but then saw your post went went there to see the result..ha ha)

 

Oh..such a complicated question even without the note applied!!

 

I will answer like this.. If underrated means to be someone whom people do not list as their ultimate oppa but can vouch that his acting is solid or they mention certain characters when they think of Joo Won, then yes. I prefer Joo Won to be that kind of underrated than a Hallyu Star who is not that well in performance.

 

I have always loved how most people in media says he is a powerful actor, dependable actor..those I think are real indication of how they perceive him. You remember in Healing camp he was asked "Is there any actor his age who he wonders why is this person so good at acting! While Joo Won answers there's a lot Seo Jang Hoon asked "Who is it!"  Meaning who is it that gives pressure to such acting talent like JW. Seo Jang Hoon seems like a very serious, no non sense guy. Coming from this just  shows how they acknowledge JW's solid versatile performance!

 

Before Joo Won went to Military, his last project MSG did average if you compare it with his usual drama rating... Many A listed and Hallyu actors have come in 2019 but how many received anywhere close to 50 scripts( I am sure they received quite a lot to but did they get this many, if so surely it'd be a news).. this amount of scripts means that is the volume of production expected his return and wanted to work with him.

 

Joo Won was once asked in a Guerilla Date what are his fans like "He said they seems gentle. But that doesn't mean other people's fans are not." I think as most his fans are people with observation, so is he.

 

I really did not want to compare with anyone but still I am going to do a slight comparison.

 

Spoiler

 

Everyone is talking about TKEM when comparing Alice. I didn't watch it. But it has two popular lead of current time. LMH is always Hallyu and KGE is well acclaimed actress, still fresh in people's mind with Goblin. They have script from popular scriptwriter  of  Hallyu Dramas. It has been adopted by Netflix. Look at the local rating.. It is almost same as Alice till episode 12. If you compare overall backing of two project TKEM has more exposure than Alice. But they're doing almost same.

 

 

21 hours ago, kittyna said:

 Oh, my God - here we were, guessing from clues in costumes (for me, it was the curly/frizzy hair), when the answer was in the caption the entire time! It literally says "Go hyungsa", which means "Detective Go". 

 

I only go for a text scanner when I do not have a clue at all.. 

 

Btw, Joo Won did his own personal vlive today..He talked mostly about Musical.. talked a bit about Alice well..How there are many twists and fun are in coming 4 episodes.

 

https://www.vlive.tv/video/218105?channelCode=FD143

 

He did one live musical vlive too..But I haven't watched it yet.

 

[kireeti2]

1 hour ago, flutterby06 said:

He did one live musical vlive too..But I haven't watched it yet.

Thanks for sharing it, it's better than I expected. And it was good to see that Joo won's voice is still same and there was no major change after the Military enlistment.

I think it is first I am seeing Joo won playing as a "salary man", usually he is use to play roles like Detective or Doctor but never as salary man. So, I think he would do well in drama with role as salary man

[kittyna]

3 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

(I was thinking of skipping the poll because I do not follow strongly anyone in the third segment but then saw your post went went there to see the result..ha ha)

 

I seldom participate in these polls either - and the third section cracked me up so much, because I felt the division between the second ("Mature") and the third ("Younger") was really arbitrary. I mean, JW under "Mature" and Kim Soo Hyun under "Younger" when they're literally just a few months apart (Sept. 1987 and Feb. 1988, respectively)? Really? So I just rolled with it - had the categories been divided differently, I might have put down different responses. But I definitely would have found some way to include JW regardless, because he is my bias, after all  

 

3 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

I have always loved how most people in media says he is a powerful actor, dependable actor..those I think are real indication of how they perceive him. You remember in Healing camp he was asked "Is there any actor his age who he wonders why is this person so good at acting! While Joo Won answers there's a lot Seo Jang Hoon asked "Who is it!"  Meaning who is it that gives pressure to such acting talent like JW. Seo Jang Hoon seems like a very serious, no non sense guy. Coming from this just  shows how they acknowledge JW's solid versatile performance!

 

I don't remember if the question was about acting ability or popularity - or a combination of both - but I do know from general comments that JW has a lot of respect for other actors and what they can do.  

 

3 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

Before Joo Won went to Military, his last project MSG did average if you compare it with his usual drama rating... Many A listed and Hallyu actors have come in 2019 but how many received anywhere close to 50 scripts( I am sure they received quite a lot to but did they get this many, if so surely it'd be a news).. this amount of scripts means that is the volume of production expected his return and wanted to work with him.

 

It could be that other actors got this many as well - maybe even some overlap with the offers for JW, who knows? - but it became newsworthy for JW because audiences started wondering why the heck he was taking so long choosing his comeback drama  Like, he finished his enlistment first, but was pretty much the last one to sign on to anything, such that by the time he confirmed Alice, some other comeback dramas have already come and gone.

 

But once JW explained (in his May 2019 fanmeeting, I believe) just how many offers he got and that he was taking his time looking through them, fans understood. And we knew to expect something good because he was the one making the choice  

 

3 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

Joo Won was once asked in a Guerilla Date what are his fans like "He said they seems gentle. But that doesn't mean other people's fans are not." I think as most his fans are people with observation, so is he.

 

Good point. I also planned to say something about the fandom in my response, so you know what? Let's just go for it  

 

Would I rather JW be popular or underrated?

 

For me, the initial response is easy: underrated. But how on earth does that make any sense? If I claim that JW is my bias/favourite/"ultimate Oppa"/etc., shouldn't I want him to be as popular as he can be? And isn't that what's ultimately better for him and his career?

 

(Yeah, I'm gonna get philosophical with this - bear with me.)

 

So that got me thinking: why? Why do I think this way about JW? And I think, when it comes down to it, it's because I like to think of him as a rare treasure who isn't immediately noticeable. And, somewhere deep inside of me, I take an admittedly childish (and slightly petty) pride in being in on something most people don't know or care about.

 

Let me explain by giving a non-JW-related example. I went on one of those student travel tours to Paris when I was in high school, and one of the historic sites we visited was the Père Lachaise cemetery. At the time, our tour guide was trying to take us on a route to the grave of Jim Morrison: someone who I could tell from context (being highlighted on the tour, my peers' responses, etc.) was famous, but who I myself wasn't familiar with. However, along the way, we wound up walking past Chopin's grave. Now if anyone knows my Seolleim in Salzburg stories, you'll know I'm a big classical music nerd - so this, I was excited about. But...no-one else noticed? Maybe? I'm not a mindreader, but what I do remember is how the rest of the group just...walked right by: no stopping, no double-takes, nothing. It felt like I was literally the only one in the group who was getting excited and I realized, in that moment, that I actually enjoyed that feeling. Maybe it's the juxtaposition of a rock musician (Morrison) being recognized and a classical musician (Chopin) being ignored, but I started to think, in my own biased classical music nerd way, that I'd somehow landed on something better.

 

So what does any of this have to do with JW? Well, in comparison with other Hallyu stars, he isn't as well-known or recognized. That's the simple reality. It's hard to find JW merch when you visit Korea compared to many others: from my own experience visiting Seoul four years ago, K-pop groups and idols rank first, followed by a number of seriously big name actors - Song Joong Ki (this was right in the middle of DOTS), Lee Min Ho, Kim Soo Hyun, Lee Jong Suk, Park Hae Jin, etc. It's hard to find news about JW on English-language Hallyu news sites, or to find him featured in the popular listicles. It's hard for pictures of JW to appear on my Pinterest feed - I need to post several pictures to trigger that particular algorithm, but pictures of bigger name actors will show up entirely on their own. 

 

And while this all gets frustrating at times, more often than not, I come back to that same feeling that I experienced in Paris: that sense that I'd somehow landed on something better than the mainstream.

 

So, how about the future? Do I want JW to become more popular than he is? Yes, but just a bit. Just enough that I could see that it's his acting skills or his personality that's drawing people in rather than his looks or charisma. I want him to stay humble, and I want his fandom - our fandom - to stay small and intimate and gentle like it is right now. And I guess, deep down, I worry that reaching full Hallyu star levels of popularity might disrupt all that.

[kireeti2]

Lol! Why "Im Si-wan "  is under young actors list along with the guys who are 6 years younger than him?

[kittyna]

20 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

Lol! Why "Im Si-wan "  is under young actors list along with the guys who are 6 years younger than him?

 

I told you guys it was weird  

 

Honestly, I think that it's because there are so many popular/well-known actors who were born in the late 1980s that it was impossible to narrow down a list of just twenty names for people to choose from. So, whoever designed the poll probably just decided to push the youngest few (Kim Soo Hyun, Im Si Wan, Lee Jong Suk, etc.) into the "Younger" category to make them all fit.

 

It makes voting really weird, though - because I can't be the only one who was left scrambling to just pick three at the end there. Actually, besides JW, I can't even remember who else I picked anymore  

3 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I think it is first I am seeing Joo won playing as a "salary man", usually he is use to play roles like Detective or Doctor but never as salary man. So, I think he would do well in drama with role as salary man

 

Missed replying to this one earlier, but I don't think it's ever crossed my mind to imagine JW playing a salaryman before. But now that I think about it, that would be interesting - I wonder what sort of story he'd tell.

[kittyna]

Since this number - "Rain/Hold On" - was performed by JW's co-stars in the recent 2020 press performance of Ghost, here's a throwback to when JW did it back in 2013:

 

 

[kireeti2]

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

Since this number - "Rain/Hold On" - was performed by JW's co-stars in the recent 2020 press performance of Ghost, here's a throwback to when JW did it back in 2013:

I like it how the chemistry and performance of the leads doesn't change at all even if the leads are swapped for every performance, for instance, Joo won's chemistry is same with Ivy and Park JI-Yeon and vice versa. It's like they recreate the scene with different musical actors with same chemistry and performance.

[airplanegirl]

There were several Korean reviews stating that watching Joo Won with Ivy was like spying on a couple, whilst they were on a date.

 

And after watching the press con videos, I have to agree with those reviews. The chemistry is outlandish and like in his dramas, his ability to have chemistry with all his co-stars is a gift that any actor would kill for. 

 

But from what I understand, the sex scene (in the press call) was toned down. In the show, the sex scenes are much steamier. 

[kittyna]

1 hour ago, airplanegirl said:

But from what I understand, the sex scene (in the press call) was toned down. In the show, the sex scenes are much steamier

 

I definitely remember something along those lines from the fan reviews of the 2013 production on the Joo Won Cuties website - or, if nothing else, fans were able to comment on what JW looked like shirtless, so we know that at least that detail is different  

 

Whether the scene was toned down overall or simply cut short to just before JW would take his shirt off in the press call is beyond me. However, it makes sense that the press call version would be more family-friendly, given that it could end up televised (and Korean content censors are still quite strict - at least compared to what I see here in North America).

 

10 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I like it how the chemistry and performance of the leads doesn't change at all even if the leads are swapped for every performance, for instance, Joo won's chemistry is same with Ivy and Park JI-Yeon and vice versa. It's like they recreate the scene with different musical actors with same chemistry and performance

 

I think there will likely be some differences between actors, since each person's offering his/her own interpretation of the characters. However, the rotations happen in such a way that everyone gets a ton of opportunities to work with everyone else, so by the time we see them on stage, after countless rehearsals, they're all already really comfortable and natural.

 

And speaking of JW's chemistry with his co-stars, check out these two cuties

 

JW's own "Alice Day" update - He's doing Ghost today, and also sends out a reminder for fans to dress warmly (I guess the weather's quite cool in Seoul right now)  

 

 So, I was vaguely aware before that in addition to the previews at the end of each episode, SBS also releases little tiny teasers just before the new episode airs. And here's the one for Episode 13, featuring our first real look at Evil!Jin Gyeom (or at least that's who I think he is, since this is definitely not the teenage version of "our" Jin Gyeom). Creepy Jin Gyeom is creepy.... 

 

Let me balance that out with some cutie fanart  And this post about JW's recent fashion.

[kittyna]

So, I haven't actually watched Episode 13 yet, but from what little I've seen so far, is it reasonable to guess that the writers are, like, really into classic literature? Because not only does the drama draw heavily from Alice in Wonderland in its basic concept, but along with its Oedipus-esque subplot (which is already resolved now), it's now adding Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to the mix? What...???

 

Spoiler

I hope, if the references to Jekyll and Hyde are deliberate, that the writers don't take Alice to the natural conclusion of that narrative - where, after it becomes clear to Jekyll that Hyde is the one taking control, he discovers that the only way to defeat him is to commit suicide, since they're ultimately the same person.

 

[flutterby06]

On 10/14/2020 at 6:54 PM, kittyna said:

Dramas are often cast so that up-and-coming actors are "carried along" by more popular or veteran actors. The hope is ultimately that enough viewers will become intrigued by the new faces that they will be able to snag greater opportunities in the future. In The King: Eternal Monarch, for instance, a lot of the show's popularity was riding on Lee Min Ho and Kim Go Eun, but I saw a ton of interest in Woo Do Hwan afterwards. Maybe something similar will happen with Kwak Si Yang and Lee Da In here - Alice is the first time many viewers are seeing either of them, and the feedback for KSY at least has been overwhelmingly positive.

 

However, this is a potential drawback for pre-produced dramas: underutilization of supporting characters who are starting to become fan favourites. In a liveshoot drama (which was the model used predominantly in the past), it was easy to add more scenes for these characters along the way, but with a pre-produced drama, what's done is done. Even the making videos were probably already made well in advance and are just being released as-is.

 

I would like to clear myself in this regard..I have no complain against the amount of screen time MH or DY are getting.. I believe they're having required amount of screen time. It's just people who like them more or just discovered these good actors who are feeling disappointed about their drama screen time. I complained about how they're not in the making videos. They're mostly of Joo Won and Km Hee Sun. There are one on one scene of Joo Won-Kwak Si Yang, Joo-Won- Lee Da In, Lee Da In-Kim Hee Sun.. Even though they have interesting parts that can be featured in makings, SBS did not give us any is what I am talking about. I myself enjoy Doyeoni-taeyi cat fight..but it's sad we've no making of those fun scenes.. SBS is always promoting how JW and KSY has so many action scenes but we've no making of those. That's what I find not satisfactory.

 

I actually like it that Alice is fully pre produced... I recently had a bad experience with SBS live shooting airing drama.. they totally changed their story and romance ship because other character got more hyped.. That was a very unpleasent memory of mine so when I heard JW is going to do SBS drama I was kind of freaked thinking about what ifs... then was glad that Alice is going to be pre produced! 

 

On 10/15/2020 at 8:17 PM, kittyna said:

I seldom participate in these polls either - and the third section cracked me up so much, because I felt the division between the second ("Mature") and the third ("Younger") was really arbitrary. I mean, JW under "Mature" and Kim Soo Hyun under "Younger" when they're literally just a few months apart (Sept. 1987 and Feb. 1988, respectively)? Really? So I just rolled with it - had the categories been divided differently, I might have put down different responses. But I definitely would have found some way to include JW regardless, because he is my bias, after all  

 

 

On 10/15/2020 at 10:05 PM, kireeti2 said:

Lol! Why "Im Si-wan "  is under young actors list along with the guys who are 6 years younger than him?

 

lol..Exactly..But who started the poll has given a explanation so may be shouldn't hung up too much on it.

 

Alice Ep 13

Watched today's episode... Will watch it again with sub.

 

Spoiler

 

But I am very satisfied with this episode. The thing everyone is bothered about "IF YOON TAE YI'S ARE DIFFERENT" has been addressed today. And it's exactly what I have been thinking so far since the time I started watching Alice. It feels good. But the story is moving in a good direction -just because two people are same should they bear the same fate, surely at least one can scape the misfortune if not two. But both Tae Yi would give their all to save Jin Gyeom..can 2020 Tae Yi avoid the prophesied misfortune!

 

Park Jin Gyeom and Dark Jin Gyeom they say..I had the feeling that young Jin Gyeom might be getting affected if 2020 Jin Gyeom time travel. after watching this episode that is what actually seems to be happening. Young Jin Gyeom due to the affect of time travel of Jin Gyeom/wormhole radiation effect may have gotten vulnerable and easy prey for whoever(Seok Oh Won) is behind all this mess. 

 

This Dark Jin Gyeom seems to visiting in 2020 as well..hmm.

 

 

Will talk more about it when you guys are done watching.

 

Leaving some vlive moment of JW in here in first he talked about Alice..

 

 

 

and in this he was answering a question about how far is home is from Ghost theatre..I just found they way he answered soo adorable! 

 

[kittyna]

48 minutes ago, flutterby06 said:

I complained about how they're not in the making videos. They're mostly of Joo Won and Km Hee Sun. There are one on one scene of Joo Won-Kwak Si Yang, Joo-Won- Lee Da In, Lee Da In-Kim Hee Sun.. Even though they have interesting parts that can be featured in makings, SBS did not give us any is what I am talking about. I myself enjoy Doyeoni-taeyi cat fight..but it's sad we've no making of those fun scenes.. SBS is always promoting how JW and KSY has so many action scenes but we've no making of those. That's what I find not satisfactory.

 

Ah, I see. Yeah, I've been wanting to see behind-the-scenes cuteness with Lee Da In and Kwak Si Yang, too.  

 

Speaking of that, remember that GIF with JW and KSY we saw recently and how we thought that maybe it was from when things get better for Park Jin Gyeom and Yoo Min Hyuk? Um...nope. 

 

48 minutes ago, flutterby06 said:

I actually like it that Alice is fully pre produced... I recently had a bad experience with SBS live shooting airing drama.. they totally changed their story and romance ship because other character got more hyped.. That was a very unpleasent memory of mine so when I heard JW is going to do SBS drama I was kind of freaked thinking about what ifs... then was glad that Alice is going to be pre produced! 

 

I also like that it's pre-produced, because I think pre-produced dramas generally have tighter and more cohesive writing overall. And, because the writers can actually have free reign to create the stories however they want (as opposed to having to change to meet viewer expectations, demands for cuts or extensions from the networks, etc.), they actually have the time to come up with incredibly complex storylines like what we see in Alice. Right now, watching Alice feels like watching a filmed version of a page-turner novel, and while it's not perfect (because up until the end, I think I'm always gonna be just a bit worried that the writers will have to rush or there'll be major plot gaps), I'm enjoying the suspense and mystery of it overall.

 

Actually, am I the only one that feels like Alice, despite its overarching genre as a Sci-Fi drama, actually switched genres several times? For instance: in Episodes 1-6, we had a classic crime mystery/action story; in Episodes 7-8, we went more towards a heartwarming rom-com; in Episodes 9-12, we had really tragically poignant melodrama (RIP Go Ahjussi - we still miss you ); and now, we're just in straight-up horror/psychological thriller territory. Makes me wonder where this is all going to end.

 

48 minutes ago, flutterby06 said:

Leaving some vlive moment of JW in here in first he talked about Alice..

 

Aw...these are cute! Thanks for sharing! 

 

I think it's funny that JW's almost bursting at the seams with his knowledge of all the twists and surprises that Alice has in store in these final four episodes. He's giddy about it like a little kid, and it looks like he has to literally stop himself from just spilling it all 

 

As for his mother's reaction to Evil!Jin Gyeom...  Don't worry, Mama Moon - we understand  

 

(It also reminds me of the time when JW shared that during Level 7 Civil Servant, his grandmother worried that he really was getting kicked in the balls as much as Han Gil Ro was.  Ya...what are we gonna do with this adorable family?)

[kireeti2]

Episode 13 has just blew me away with its twist and revelations. There were few plot holes, but we get over look it since they are the ones which made the drama intriguing. So, episode 13 has our answers for past questions, like, Who was TY(2020) and her family, turns out PSY is not her mom and they are two different persons, and I am guessing the term "reset" used for stopping the time travel means to completely erasing PJG in every dimension, maybe that's why PSY did not want to stop the time travel. And evil PJG really lives up to his ominous looks and actions, and I guess he will try to stop the team of 2020 in order keep the time travel a reality and he can take complete control over the time travel. And the character who suffers most is PSY, I really feel for her, she left everything for the sake of PJG just to be killed or get killed because of him. And I think episode 14 will also have few revelations for us and with its twist. I think episode 13 is by far best one in this drama, with all the conflicts of different characters, it is complex and enjoyable at the same time. And I also like how PJG from 2020 says that KDY is a special friend of him and would never hurt her, so it is like a low-key confession

14 hours ago, kittyna said:

Speaking of that, remember that GIF with JW and KSY we saw recently and how we thought that maybe it was from when things get better for Park Jin Gyeom and Yoo Min Hyuk? Um...nope. 

Yup, I think Father - Son duo will try to stop the evil PJG who seem have better understanding and good control over time travel of them all. So, PJG (2020) need all the help that he can get to stop his evil self, and I have feeling that in this process we might see the end of PJG.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

Park Jin Gyeom and Dark Jin Gyeom they say..I had the feeling that young Jin Gyeom might be getting affected if 2020 Jin Gyeom time travel.

I think the effect these two were having has to be only physical not mental. Its not like that PJG(2010) became evil because of the presence of PJG(2020). It looks like he became evil long before arrival of PJG(2020) and I am more interested in the next episode like what will come out of the confrontation between PJG(2020) and PJG(2010).

14 hours ago, kittyna said:

ctually, am I the only one that feels like Alice, despite its overarching genre as a Sci-Fi drama, actually switched genres several times? For instance: in Episodes 1-6, we had a classic crime mystery/action story; in Episodes 7-8, we went more towards a heartwarming rom-com; in Episodes 9-12, we had really tragically poignant melodrama (RIP Go Ahjussi - we still miss you ); and now, we're just in straight-up horror/psychological thriller territory. Makes me wonder where this is all going to end.

Yup, you are spot on. This drama has all the elements, it never gave me the impression that I was watching a Sci-fic drama, and last episodes we are seeing a classic conflict between all powerful top-dogs and underdogs. So, I think we might be seeing more heart wrenching scenes in the end, my bet is that PJG  will be sacrificed by the writers and right I see it has the only way for reset to happen in order to stop time travel

[kittyna]

9 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

lol..Exactly..But who started the poll has given a explanation so may be shouldn't hung up too much on it.

 

Don't worry - I'm not hung up on it. I just thought it was funny  

 

Actually, I had a really hard time with the "Ahjussi" category, though, because most of my actual favourite ahjussi actors weren't there  But that's okay; there were still plenty who I enjoyed watching in general, even if they weren't my faves.

 

I can't respond to most of @kireeti2's comments yet, because this is definitely an episode that I want to actually watch before giving my own take. However, I agree with him on this point, at least:

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I think the effect these two were having has to be only physical not mental. Its not like that PJG(2010) became evil because of the presence of PJG(2020). It looks like he became evil long before arrival of PJG(2020) and I am more interested in the next episode like what will come out of the confrontation between PJG(2020) and PJG(2010).

 

I don't think Good!Jin Gyeom's time travel would be what pushes Evil!Jin Gyeom to the dark side - that would just be really messed up, and the guy's traumatized enough as he is without that additional burden of guilt. Instead, I'm actually starting to wonder if the influence is the other way around - that Evil!Jin Gyeom (if he does turn out to be the Teacher) has been periodically barging into Good!Jin Gyeom's life (and psyche) and just generally wreaking havoc.

 

Hence my reference to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde a few posts back  

 

Friends from JW's enlistment came to see him on Ghost

 

This is cute: Where is the Book of Prophecy? According to mini-Tae Yi, "the props uncle took it".  Smart kid  

[kittyna]

I haven't watched the new episodes yet (not completely, anyway), but right now, I get the sense that everyone's curious as to just who exactly is the person in that black cloak. For blocking/filming purposes, I do think it's JW in the costume (or his stunt double), but does that mean the character is actually Jin Gyeom?

 

(Wild and crazy speculations ahead - but "wild and crazy" is where the fun is )

 

Spoiler

That's what Tae Yi got from the DNA test, but given how this entity seems to be literally possessing Jin Gyeom whenever he turns dark (in either timeline), I think there's more going on than meets the eye.

 

First of all, I don't think there's a single "Teacher". Instead, I feel like we've been slowly climbing our way up a hierarchical pyramid where each person calls his/her superior(s) "Teacher" as a form of respect (the same way that gangsters in K-dramas call all their superiors "Hyungnim" regardless of actual rank in the gang). So we started off with Gi Cheol Am, then Evil!Seok Oh Won (both in Episode 11), then Evil!Park Jin Gyeom (Episode 13), to whoever the hell this person is (Episode 14). We've finally reached the top of the pyramid, and I think the actual reveal, despite being forecast in the Episode 15 preview, will happen either right at the end of that episode, or not until Episode 16 (the finale).

 

So is this Jin Gyeom from yet another dimension, doing whatever it takes to stay alive? I think it's telling that the Episode 15 preview implies that "our" Jin Gyeom has to go to "Alice" in person to find out. If each parallel universe has its own version of each person, and the reason that we have two Tae Yis in our main universe is because the Tae Yi from one universe (Park Sun Young) chose to stay in another one, which led to her co-existing alongside the original Tae Yi (2020) in our universe, then Jin Gyeom's the wild card, as he simultaneously belongs in both parallel universes. Given that, I doubt that the villain is a 2050-timeline Jin Gyeom, as that's the place that "our" Jin Gyeom was meant to have all along.

 

What do we know about the black cloaked villain? We know that he/she covers their face with that massive hood, but we haven't actually seen that face yet. We also know that this is someone who can not only travel through time freely, but who also appears capable of butting into and controlling Jin Gyeom's mind without warning - but not necessarily anyone else's.

 

If this were a fantasy rather than a sci-fi drama, I'd put all this up to something supernatural (a god, a demon, a ghost, etc.). But Alice claims that everything we see is scientifically possible even if, given our 2020 situation, we're not there yet: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So, in my wild and crazy imagination, I'm starting to wonder whether we're dealing with some uber-advanced AI (that's appropriated Jin Gyeom's appearance in a more advanced deepfake) that forms the core of "Alice", as we know that everything that makes time travel possible in this drama stems from computer software (i.e. the program that 2020 Tae Yi was working on before Good!Seok Oh Won shut down the project).

 

The team's Episode 14 Instagram updates

 

[EDIT]

 

Since I brought up deepfakes earlier in this post, this video goes into the concept more generally (whereas the first one I linked to was referring to a specific sexual harrassment context.

[flutterby06]

5 hours ago, kittyna said:

First of all, I don't think there's a single "Teacher". Instead, I feel like we've been slowly climbing our way up a hierarchical pyramid where each person calls his/her superior(s) "Teacher" as a form of respect (the same way that gangsters in K-dramas call all their superiors "Hyungnim" regardless of actual rank in the gang). So we started off with Gi Cheol Am, then Evil!Seok Oh Won (both in Episode 11), then Evil!Park Jin Gyeom (Episode 13), to whoever the hell this person is (Episode 14). We've finally reached the top of the pyramid, and I think the actual reveal, despite being forecast in the Episode 15 preview, will happen either right at the end of that episode, or not until Episode 16 (the finale).

 

That Hyung nim-Teacher analogy  It seems so true for Alice.

 

5 hours ago, kittyna said:

What do we know about the black cloaked villain? We know that he/she covers their face with that massive hood, but we haven't actually seen that face yet. We also know that this is someone who can not only travel through time freely, but who also appears capable of butting into and controlling Jin Gyeom's mind without warning - but not necessarily anyone else's.

 

He is just no face for now.. I wonder if we could actually see that face in next week.

 

On 10/17/2020 at 12:33 AM, kittyna said:

I think it's funny that JW's almost bursting at the seams with his knowledge of all the twists and surprises that Alice has in store in these final four episodes. He's giddy about it like a little kid, and it looks like he has to literally stop himself from just spilling it all 

 

Yeah..I found it cute too.. JW is so animated when things like this happens.. he is all expressive.

 

When Joo Won said "There's more scary things" oh he actually means it.. In Ep 14 he just changes from Jin Gyeom to Dark Jin Gyeom just like that.. It's so hard to keep track! His fine detailed acting ....

 

Due to technical difficulty one show of Ghost stopped in mid performance. Joo Won apologized on behalf of everyone. He also the audience will be compenseted(probably they will give the ticket fee back). He kept apologizing ..

 

Feeling sad for both the viewers and performers.. viewers must have been really sad. 

[kireeti2]

6 hours ago, kittyna said:

So, in my wild and crazy imagination, I'm starting to wonder whether we're dealing with some uber-advanced AI

It almost sounds like a "Terminator" movie theme. I do feel like Alice is going in that direction, like we have a badass mom who wants to protect her son and a son who can be turned into a evil person by some unknown person. I can totally draw parallels from recent "Terminator" movie where the main guy who was supposed to be leading the resistance have turned evil.

54 minutes ago, flutterby06 said:

Due to technical difficulty one show of Ghost stopped in mid performance. Joo Won apologized on behalf of everyone. He also the audience will be compenseted(probably they will give the ticket fee back). He kept apologizing ..

That really sad,like, both for the audience and for the artist. I thought the stage management always double checks everything before the performance, I guess nothing is fool-proof when it comes to technology.

6 hours ago, kittyna said:

So is this Jin Gyeom from yet another dimension, doing whatever it takes to stay alive? I think it's telling that the Episode 15 preview implies that "our" Jin Gyeom has to go to "Alice" in person to find out.

I am  anticipating few  main and side characters are going to  die in episode 15 and there will be some kind of showdown between the main antagonist and PJG and in episode 16 we met get to see the explanations and tying up the loose ends.

6 hours ago, kittyna said:

That's what Tae Yi got from the DNA test, but given how this entity seems to be literally possessing Jin Gyeom whenever he turns dark (in either timeline), I think there's more going on than meets the eye

I think that guy dressed up as a grim reaper is the white haired person from the episode 1 when PSY was killed. I also think that it is PJG from another dimension who is able to take control of time by killing his mom and now trying to the same thing with every PJG from every dimension

 

[kittyna]

3 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

Due to technical difficulty one show of Ghost stopped in mid performance. Joo Won apologized on behalf of everyone. He also the audience will be compenseted(probably they will give the ticket fee back). He kept apologizing ..

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

That really sad,like, both for the audience and for the artist. I thought the stage management always double checks everything before the performance, I guess nothing is fool-proof when it comes to technology.

 

That's the thing about live performance: even with the best of preparations, you never know what's going to happen.  

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I also think that it is PJG from another dimension who is able to take control of time by killing his mom and now trying to the same thing with every PJG from every dimension

 

I do think it's interesting that some version of Park Jin Gyeom is fated to kill some version of Yoon Tae Yi regardless of which dimension we're in. I think I'll need to watch Episode 14 with full subs (rather than the auto-subs from SBS's YouTube) to know entirely, but there seems to be a catch in the prophecy that I want to unpack further.  

[kittyna]

And here I am with my thoughts on Episode 13 of Alice:

 

Spoiler

Okay, I know already that this is wishful thinking on my part, but dang - someone give Park Jin Gyeom a break already! I honestly have no idea how much more of this he could take before he well and truly snaps, evil black cloaked person or not.

 

I don't blame him for his denial of the prophecy, though. As what I now assume to be the "original" Jin Gyeom, he's the one who grew up completely unaware of parallel universes, time travel, or any of their longterm implications. That means that the whole idea that there's not only other versions of himself running around in parallel universes, but that they could also be his complete opposite in terms of character, morals/ethics, personality, etc. is a completely foreign concept.

 

That does appear to be what we're dealing with, though, as the version of Park Sun Young we see in this universe is genuinely frightened of her son in a way that the first Sun Young (i.e. "our" Jin Gyeom's mother) wasn't. "Our" Sun Young certainly realized that Jin Gyeom was capable of causing harm to others from a very early age; but, as we've already discussed here on this forum, she seems to be living in a universe where her interventions and her determination to raise him properly actually succeed - such that the Jin Gyeom who could have thrown his classmate off the roof (as Evil!Jin Gyeom did here) wound up trying (albeit failing) to catch her instead. And in one of the rare heartwarming moments in this episode, it was great seeing this Park Sun Young realize that one of her counterparts succeeded somewhere along the line.

 

Unfortunately for Jin Gyeom, though, that does mean that he's more or less completely unaware of what he could or would have been capable of if circumstances had just been ever-so-slightly different. The upright police detective we know and love only got there just by a hair, and the prophecy implies that he might be the only version who's made it this far on the side of good.

 

(Not that that helps a whole ton, as we discover in Episode 14 - but my focus here is on Jin Gyeom's journey here.)

 

For me, the most telling difference between the two Jin Gyeoms is their reactions to the voices in their heads. 2020-Tae Yi assumes that Evil!Jin Gyeom only started having those symptoms now, after she time traveled with "our" Jin Gyeom, but from what we see of the instances in which it happens...yeah, this has been going on for a long time. Evil!Jin Gyeom is completely used to the voices and almost seems to welcome them when, I assume, various kill orders come to him via those voices - the small knowing smile and murmured "Arasseo" whenever it happens say it all.

 

Contrast that with "our" Jin Gyeom when he first encounters this phenomenon in the lab - oh. My. God.  He's terrified (obviously, as he has no idea what's happening), but he's also horrified in a, "What have I just turned into???" kind of way. Kudos to JW for being able to show both sides of fear in a single scene, though. My first look at Evil!Jin Gyeom in Episode 12 was creepy, but this was terrifying to watch because of the pain and sorrow you feel for "our" Jin Gyeom in that moment.

 

(Long story short: Awesome job, Oppa, but I did not sign up for that sort of nightmare fuel. )

 

I know my comments have been almost entirely about Jin Gyeom so far, but I do want to say something about 2020-Tae Yi as well. First of all: I love me a smart female lead, and we definitely see Tae Yi using those smarts in spades in this episode.  Of course, she's taking the realization of just what the prophecy entails better than Jin Gyeom (because, let's face it: anyone would take that better than Jin Gyeom), but if my hunch is correct, the big shock for her will be what else is written on that page that she's just found. Whatever the method to stop time travel is, it must be really bad for Park Sun Young to literally choose being killed by her own son instead.

 

[kittyna]

By the way, after sleeping on what I watched last night, I just realized something.

 

Episode 13 explains what happened in the parallel universe that Jin Gyeom and Tae Yi found themselves in (i.e. that Sun Young is killed by her son - whether of his volition or not), but Jin Gyeom's got a point when he says that that doesn't explain what happened in his own universe. Like, unless yet another Jin Gyeom time-traveled to his house that night and killed his mother while he wasn't there, there's no way that the prophecy could have played out as written. So I still think there's a catch in the prophecy somewhere; hopefully, it's one that allows Jin Gyeom to exonerate himself.