L&R DEBATE: Growing to love someone vs. Falling at first sight

[GOOMBA]

THE DEBATE FOR THE WEEK: Some of us envision our dream relationships. You know, we spend a countless number of hours laying in bed wondering how s/he'll ask us out, if it'll be extravagant, if there will be flowers involved, if it's a "Hey, it's only been a week but I'm totally crazy for you. Will you be mine?" or if it's a "I've known you for forever and I just realized... I really like you."

Look at that last one carefully. I've heard things like, "S/he doesn't really like me. We've just known each other too long. Maybe we're too routine with each other." or, "S/he didn't like me at first... I want someone who likes me from the beginning."

Would you be hurt, if the person you really liked, 5 months down the line after you've showered them with attention, maybe gifts and compliments, turned to you and said, "I think I'm starting to like you"? Would you prefer someone who saw you across the street or from the other side of class and just had to grab your number?

[BingBong_514]

Gaslighting = acting two- faced due to the displeasure of seeing someone be in a better position than oneself (aka jealousy) and hence, resorting to acts of cruelty in order to sabotage the other person's source of happiness.

The above definition I gave can be applied to so many different relationships, including the ones that I've been in and perhaps is still in.

[mintcracker]

I've been in an abusive relationship with sb that gas lighted me alot.

"You're overreacting" is mild. Most gas lighters would say 'wtf you on about, you're delusional' 'stop it, you're crazy' etc.

Let's just say that wasn't fun. I won't ever put myself in that situation again.

[Guest 5kiana]

Hello, hello, Soompi love gurus and relationship newbies! -

Do you like the other debate and insight threads posted in other sections? Allow me to introduce you all to Soompi's L&R Debate Thread. Every week, there will be a new question posted for everyone to give their insights and opinions on. If you have any interesting topics or suggestions as to what would be a good debate, don't hesitate to PM me with it.

As always, and like anywhere else on Soompi, the point of this thread is to spark discussion, bring various insights and possibly teach a thing or two. Another member's opinion or point of view may be different (maybe a little, maybe a lot) and all I ask is that we all stay civilized, on topic and respectful of each other.

So this week's question...

This was an article written by a feminist researcher named Yashar Ali, on the topic of emotional manipulation and emotional abuse. It is titled, A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not Crazy. It outlines the term "Gaslighting" based on the movie Gaslight, and explains in depth this method of emotional manipulation.

Link to the article (source: Huffington Post): http://www.huffingto...1_b_958859.html

Excerpts from the article (TL;DR):

Debate question: Do you think it really is as harmful to use gaslighting terms like, "You're overreacting." to invalidate someone's feelings and reactions, whether male or female?

It is definitely harmful. It is a form of verbal abuse. You see this in bullies, insecure people, and those who are just plain mean. It's only purpose is to be derogatory. To degrade and cut down the other person. There is nothing constructive about it.

[Guest hiswendy]

In general, when I get into confrontations with my boyfriend, I speak out my complaints with lines like: "Sometimes, I feel ____ because I feel like it wasn't fair when you (insert what he might have done to slight me)" or "I find what you just said offensive because ___." Essentially, what I want to convey is that I am upset over something he said/did, not that he's a bad person. Luckily, he isn't the abusive type either. He is very careful with his words when we argue, so even though he might not follow the same lines I do, it isn't like he hurts my feelings un/intentionally either.

I think emotionally abusive people are despicable. I've been called a heartless b-tch because I didn't reciprocate someone's romantic feelings. It's immature and cruel. I don't think I'll ever look at that person the same.

[Guest DarkAngelInLove]

I think men often use this so they can avoid fixing a problem in the relationship and making her feel stupid about having an emotion, which is essentially emotional abuse. When the problem is dismissed by making the women feel inferior, the relationship take a bad turn. Don't disregard a woman's feeling just because men are unable to identify or express their emotions doesn't mean it's better way of dealing things.

[Guest [Deleted User]]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[inxomnia]

My problem with gaslighting, as raised by Hapless, is that sometimes it's hard to identify. When you're in love with someone, it's hard to pick out times when they are obviously trying to manipulate as such, because you are prone to write it off as something else, ie joking, some deep emotional bs etc. However, at the end of the day, if someone is intentionally and repetitively gaslighting, it will only do harm to the relationship on a more subconscious level, and issues are bound to arise from it. No matter how many times you brush it off, or make excuses for it, it will definitely be on your mind at some point in time.

[Guest Malice_Kaiser]

In certain cases, YES, it is without a question abuse. I had a friend who dated a real sociopathic d-bag. He'd say awful things to her, mess with her emotions, test her with the things he could say to her before she snapped. And when she did say anything he'd be like "God, I was just joking, calm down, you're overreacting." It turned into an emotionally abusive relationship and I'm so glad she got out of it. "Gaslighting" is a new term for me but I definitely think that's what he was doing -- treating her like crap and then acting like she was crazy for realizing she was being treated like crap.

[Guest katemon]

We can just say that the males in my house sound very similiar to this, and I can say that it's terrible and when you can't get out of it completly(it gets better when you start getting hobbies) but is still damaging (even when you stop believing it you still have to hear it) and it is going to take a long time to learn how to properly raise kids/not become just like them.

[inxomnia]

^ See I think that's the problem where things can get confusing. So many guys brush off girls and their emotional reactions as a way of justifying their own actions; or they hide behind the term "insensitive". Yes, sometimes it's insensitive, but at others it can be intentional manipulation and that is emotional abuse when their actions are intended to "control" them or "pacify" them when their concerns are valid. It's oppressive as the days go by, and it's belittling.

[Guest chae_ah]

I agree with inxomnia... it's really hard to identify. Most guys aren't going to start with "You're worthless." Something seemingly mild like "It's not a big deal" can escalate into worse situations without people even noticing that it got to that point.

 Even in other relationships, we tend to gaslight others without even knowing it, especially when we say anything like, "Chill out" or "Calm down" because it makes them feel inferior to your supposed calm and cool... even if you truly think it's not something to be worked up about. But when it starts out so mild, you just want to avoid fighting, so you let it go. And if it keeps happening, you just keep wondering if you are the one who is overly sensitive or whatever... it's a vicious cycle that eats at your self esteem, and yet you can't blame them for abuse because it's not really outright. 

I don't know what I'm trying to get at with this but I have dealt with this from both males and females, and it's definitely a form of manipulation and control that makes the victim feel helpless without a real way to fight back. 

[Guest [Deleted User]]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[fabrications.]

Wow, if I never read this, I would have never known that term actually existed. I've been treated this way before. A lot of things would be said to hurt me and then in the end the person told me they just wanted to get a reaction out of me because I "needed it." I was hurt all the time.

I told the person about a lot of personal things like how hurt I get over people that are close to me attempting to commit suicide or hurt themselves. It's even harder to witness it. This person has done it in front of me before. The person knew they'd get a reaction out of me that way. I got angry at the person, I cried, and I let out so many emotions. I thought I had no right to be mad at first--but then I started realizing that it was being done on purpose. Later on in the friendship, she'd tell me that she was hurting herself. Eventually I got blamed for all the pain they felt and that I shouldn't be the one upset.

Sometimes you'd ask yourself if you were really being treated cruelly or not because you get this terrible feeling inside--you start feeling like a scum of the earth. That's their goal; they set you up and get you to get angry enough, then they'll find some sort of escape to make it seem like it was only you that created all the problems. Sometimes you just don't know though because it's so subtle.

I remember my self-esteem was lowering a lot the more time I spent with the person.

When this was happening to me, I was at the lowest point of my life. It got to the point where my body and mind started to become numb for self defense. I had break downs. I got no support from the person that treated me this way (when this person was supposed to be important to me) and when I expressed my feelings of insecurity, they said things like, "You are so pathetic." And I believed it. It was stuck in my mind all the time. Every day, all day--those words stuck with me and I believed them because the person had been able to go that far. And then I somehow thought I didn't deserve to be alive.

Now I know that this is a form of abuse. If someone ever treats you this way, don't think lightly of it. It will be hard to escape, I know. It's hard to tell sometimes. But follow your instinct--follow what your body and mind is naturally telling you. You know when someone is good for you and when they're bad. Reflect and don't ever let someone else tell you you're nothing.

Oh, one major thing to add...I see that a lot of you are mentioning guys. But guys and girls alike, either way, both genders are capable. The person that did all those things to me was a girl. She used to be a close friend.

[GOOMBA]

Hi, everyone!

Thanks so much to those who took the time to participate in L&R's first debate. This week's question has been posted, and it's definitely something easier to relate to, so I hope to be seeing more faces!

[Guest [Deleted User]]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Guest toomanytrucks]

It's definitely a Hallmark holiday and yet, as a woman, I can relate to feeling unwanted or the like on v day. But once you're in a relationship it just so doesn't matter. To me, I don't see the point. If I see my boy I'm happy enough but I expect nothing.

[Guest Malice_Kaiser]

We've all heard the term "single-awareness day" and "Hallmark holiday", and these, usually coming from people out of relationships. Is Valentine's Day really considered a marketing plot, or do you think it should be valued as strongly as say, a birthday or anniversary, and why? What about views like, "You should treat your s/o like that everyday"?

I definitely think it's a Hallmark holiday -- a ploy to make extra profit this time of year. That being said, is Halloween a real holiday? It's been SO commercialized, and is also used to pull in extra money, so I'd say it isn't really -- but that doesn't stop people from having a ton of fun on that day. That being said, I think Valentines Day is what the individual makes of it. If you want to go all-out, then that's fine with me. I won't be though. Me and my S/O personally just say "Happy Valentine's Day" and buy each other chocolate (and I don't mean a fancy box of chocolates, I mean like candy bars) and that's it. But then again, we buy each other candy bars on a regular basis so... What I'm saying is, you shouldn't wait for some pre-determined-by-Hallmark day of the year to break out the romance. Why can't you do that any other day of the year? This is why even when I'm single, the holiday doesn't bother me.

[Guest hiswendy]

I dislike that majority of people who celebrate it forget the roots of the holiday-- that brave priests, St. Valentine and company, went against their emperor to wed Christian couples despite the on-going persecution of Christians. I think it valiant of these priests to stand against imperial power and secure their work as free people whose first priority is their congregation. (And okay, if we must: they/St. Valentine fought for love.)

I think it's mainly because this generation and the Modern Western Civilization are so capitalist that regardless of how genuine something can be, we will always find a way to commodify it. Insert marketing plots here, and voila, it's a hallmark holiday. Naturally, because of the emphasis on couple-hood the day promotes, single people may be more likely to be...'bitter' to it. As for people in relationships, all the media of perfect couples and perfect gifts may skew their expectations of their partners. <Insert issues with media, capitalism, etc. here.>

Personally, I see nothing wrong with celebrating it. If I want to shower my partner with a little bit more affection than I do the rest of the week, why not?

I detest the stream of media that commodifies the holiday, but then when have I ever liked that sort of thing.... For me, the problem comes in when people set unrealistic expectations -- either "buy me a ring now!" or "I will definitely find love on the 14th!" -- just because it's Valentine's Day.

[fabrications.]

Since you guys mentioned Halloween, I started thinking about my childhood and I remember Halloween and Valentine's Day being my favorite "holidays" of the year, and all for one reason--candy. I agree with you guys...I think it really is a Hallmark holiday but I won't deny that I don't get pulled into it sometimes. When all of my friends talk about what they're doing for Valentine's Day, I'm just sitting there, listening to their stories, and it just gets soooo...dreadful. It's cool that they're celebrating and all, but sometimes people get so hyped up about it and tend to talk about it too much. And I get jealous because unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to celebrate it with my s/o like they do.

Telling myself it's a "stupid holiday" is almost the same as celebrating it though--I'm still thinking and talking about it, am I not? And it's hard to not care because even back in elementary school, they used to make us pass out cards and lollipops and whatnot. Whether I want to believe it or not, Valentine's Day has already been embedded deeply into my culture...=/

ah, look at what the corps have done to us!

Really though, if you celebrate it--cool. And if you don't--that's cool too.