Joo Won 주원 [Current Drama 2024 - The Midnight Studio/ 야한(夜限) 사진관]

[kireeti2]

3 hours ago, kittyna said:

I do want to point out: whatever I think of these characters as dads, chances are, most of their shortcomings will be balanced out by the moms  Just saying

Lol!! That is given, I don't see any of Joo won's character doing a good job at parenting without moms, even in the case of cha yoo-jin I see the moms leading more than supporting 

3 hours ago, kittyna said:

I know - I like reading your responses for the same reason  So here are mine.

So, technically Cha Yoo-jin won by one point out of 3 contestants. 

 

[kittyna]

32 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

So, technically Cha Yoo-jin won by one point out of 3 contestants. 

 

Actually, I was thinking that we each had our personal Top Three.

 

For you: 1. Park Si On; 2. Cha Yoo Jin; 3: Kim Tae Hyun

 

For me: 1. Kim Tae Hyun; 2. Cha Yoo Jin; 3. Park Si On

 

34 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

Lol!! That is given, I don't see any of Joo won's character doing a good job at parenting without moms, even in the case of cha yoo-jin I see the moms leading more than supporting 

 

Rather than leading vs. supporting, I think most of the successful parents would be more-or-less equal partnerships.

[kireeti2]

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Actually, I was thinking that we each had our personal Top Three.

 

For you: 1. Park Si On; 2. Cha Yoo Jin; 3: Kim Tae Hyun

 

For me: 1. Kim Tae Hyun; 2. Cha Yoo Jin; 3. Park Si On

Lol! We can agree that cha Yoo -Jin is second best dad

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Rather than leading vs. supporting, I think most of the successful parents would be more-or-less equal partnerships.

I do agree with you parenting is a partnership relationship. But what I meant was moms are better in taken better decisions in times of crisis, because I tend to find that women are more clam and calculative whilebtaking decisions in times of crisis, where as men tend to take impulsive decisions (I speak with experience, since I belong that gender)

As you can see in case of handling covid -19 crisis, where not one country but 5 countries with female leaders were able to deal with it aptly and made sure the lock down, quarantine and communication with their fellow citizens were effective and efficienct. So yeah parenting sometimes demand leadership skills, so in that context I meant moms would lead

[kireeti2]

I wasn't expecting Joo won's agency to celebrate or wish him on his 10th anniversary debut, at the most I was expecting them to just put a post to just congratulate him. I was expecting it'll be mostly driven by fans, but I forgot that Joo won is among the handful of artist who stayed with the agency from the beginning, so I guess they are thanking him in this way

If we look at Joo won, he really does grow on you along with the time, I think he not kind of artist who we would recognize right away for the looks, but as the time passes, I am starting to appreciate his looks

 

[kittyna]

Greetings and thanks that JW reposted himself:

 

 

And seeing that there's a behind-the-scenes pic from Nae Il's Cantabile in that set, here are some I stumbled across today from Yong Pal:

 

 

Which reminds me - we know from the dramas that Kim Tae Hyun is a good swimmer (and that Cha Yoo Jin is most certainly not!), but what about the others? Hm...what do you think?

 

7 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I do agree with you parenting is a partnership relationship. But what I meant was moms are better in taken better decisions in times of crisis, because I tend to find that women are more clam and calculative whilebtaking decisions in times of crisis, where as men tend to take impulsive decisions (I speak with experience, since I belong that gender)

As you can see in case of handling covid -19 crisis, where not one country but 5 countries with female leaders were able to deal with it aptly and made sure the lock down, quarantine and communication with their fellow citizens were effective and efficienct. So yeah parenting sometimes demand leadership skills, so in that context I meant moms would lead

 

The reason why I think it's an equal partnership is that I think it really strongly depends on the individuals. So, using the three characters we've just been talking about as examples: if Park Si On and Cha Yoon Seo were parents, then I definitely think Yoon Seo would be the one in charge; if Cha Yoo Jin and Seol Nae Il were parents, then I think Yoo Jin would be the one in charge (since Nae Il's actually more impulsive than he is); and if Kim Tae Hyun and Han Yeo Jin were parents, I think the balance of power would be evenly split (with Yeo Jin being in charge publicly, and Tae Hyun in charge at home - we see her deferring to him as the "head of the household" and "father of our [future] kids").

 

By the way, by "since I belong to that gender" are you saying that you're a guy, @kireeti2 since it was men you were just talking about? Or am I misreading that sentence? Not that it matters (save that I think coming across a male JW fan would be really awesome, since there are usually so many girls), but I'm just curious. That is, if it's not too personal.

 

3 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

If we look at Joo won, he really does grow on you along with the time, I think he not kind of artist who we would recognize right away for the looks, but as the time passes, I am starting to appreciate his looks

 

 

JW's looks grow on you over time, but I think that gives him a slight advantage since his not-as-handsome features mean that we as viewers are compelled to notice his acting first.

[kireeti2]

7 minutes ago, kittyna said:

you're a guy, @kireeti2 

Yes, I have a odd name for guy, my dad kept it has a good luck, and by the way I did not get offended or felt bad if you have assumed that I am a "she", if not I am just happy that my writings did not give away the fact that I am a guy, since women are better in linguistic more than men(I meant it as a biological fact, not stereotyping).

 

11 minutes ago, kittyna said:

since it was men you were just talking about?

Yeah, I am talking as a man from man's perspective, we are pretty impulsive and at time try to be bravado instead of stop and think for a sec, the way I see it, women are actual successors of Aristotle's golden mean concept

 

15 minutes ago, kittyna said:

since there are usually so many girls

They are male fan as well, since I am the example to it, but I don't know if they are active in forum or not. But I am fan of joo won's acting skills, though it is not perfect, he there's to take different role and tries to improve it a time passes, that is something of quality I admire about him, not just looks.

 

17 minutes ago, kittyna said:

but I'm just curious. That is, if it's not too personal.

It's good to be curious, it makes you more sensitive towards others, like asking about my gender, it would help you to reply with more sensitivity , but I think I did mentioned it in my profile

 

20 minutes ago, kittyna said:

since his not-as-handsome features mean that we as viewers are compelled to notice his acting first.

It happened to me during his interviews, where I have notice his not-as-handsome features. But in drama or movies I have only noticed his acting and his handsome features were noticeable after progression of the plot line.

[kireeti2]

18 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

and by the way I did not get offended or felt bad if you have assumed that I am a "she

@kittyna What I meant was that, I found that usually people get offended if you assume their wrong(it is more in males and I use to be like that when I was young and naive). The other day when I was creating an gaming account for my nephew, I accidentally selected gender as female and he lost it like I have committed a some horrible thing, he was like I am boy and I identifying himself as female was like something gross even in gaming account which has no real bias in game even if you are male/female. So, in that context I have used it.

[kittyna]

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

but I think I did mentioned it in my profile

 

Yeah, I must have missed that, since I usually don't check people's profiles on this site unless I actually need to check something  So I definitely missed that memo there.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Yes, I have a odd name for guy, my dad kept it has a good luck, and by the way I did not get offended or felt bad if you have assumed that I am a "she", if not I am just happy that my writings did not give away the fact that I am a guy, since women are better in linguistic more than men(I meant it as a biological fact, not stereotyping).

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

What I meant was that, I found that usually people get offended if you assume their wrong(it is more in males and I use to be like that when I was young and naive). The other day when I was creating an gaming account for my nephew, I accidentally selected gender as female and he lost it like I have committed a some horrible thing, he was like I am boy and I identifying himself as female was like something gross even in gaming account which has no real bias in game even if you are male/female. So, in that context I have used it.

 

I think there are some general patterns when it comes to gender and leisure activities, preferences, etc., even if they are more stereotypical than fact. So, say, people assume that male K-drama or K-pop fans would like actresses and girl groups, and that female K-drama or K-pop fans would like actors and boy bands. I can see that partially being a result of marketing: male celebrities' images are carefully tailored to be sexually attractive to women and vice-versa. Korea does take it a step further than most, though, by having male celebrities promote female cosmetics in commercials: I literally saw that firsthand in Seoul and was like, "Um...why is Song Joong Ki in a lipstick commercial???" And then I realized that the ad was meant to appeal to his fangirls  

 

(On a side note, I can understand your nephew's concern, then: the "default" gender in gaming circles is male - such that female gamers have a hard time being taken seriously by their male counterparts - and it's unfortunately not uncommon for guys on game sites to insult each other through effeminizing language: calling each other "girl", or other more derogatory words for women that Soompi won't let me say...or even going so far as to say "I raped [so-and-so]" to say they defeated them, etc.)

 

As for me personally, I'm glad you're not offended by my mistake - nor am I bothered by being proven wrong. If anything, my first reaction was, "Oh, really? Wasn't expecting that!" followed shortly thereafter by, "And here I am, a female fanfic author writing mostly from the POV of male characters...I hope I haven't been messing this up!"

 

Because it's not unusual for female authors to inadvertently give their male characters unrealistically "feminine" attributes, thought processes, etc. Mind you, it helps that even the guys in JW's dramas aren't particularly macho - they may be action-oriented (e.g. Lee Kang To, Kim Tae Hyun) or obtuse (e.g. Hwang Tae Hui, Cha Yoo Jin) at times, but overall...I've found them far more in touch with their emotional sides than what I see of straight men in North American media. It's becoming more flexible now, but in Canada and the US, the assumption used to be that emotional guys were gay, whereas I find that soft masculinity is pretty broadly accepted in Europe and parts of East Asia (including Korea), at least among millennials or younger.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

They are male fan as well, since I am the example to it, but I don't know if they are active in forum or not. But I am fan of joo won's acting skills, though it is not perfect, he there's to take different role and tries to improve it a time passes, that is something of quality I admire about him, not just looks.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

It happened to me during his interviews, where I have notice his not-as-handsome features. But in drama or movies I have only noticed his acting and his handsome features were noticeable after progression of the plot line.

 

As for me, I'm a girl, but I've never been one to just be captivated by someone's looks. Like, if I see everyone gushing over some handsome celebrity or classmate or colleague, I would notice his good looks like anyone else, but just in a purely aesthetic sense. In order to like someone, I need more than that.

[kireeti2]

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

I hope I haven't been messing this up!"

Oh no, gosh no! You have done a great job writing about male perspective in fan fic, if not the perspective were real and not superficial like some of the fanfics I have read, at least in the case of Joo won's fan fics I can say it was aptly written

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

Yeah, I must have missed that, since I usually don't check people's profiles on this site unless I actually need to check something  So I definitely missed that memo there.

I usually check profile of others, not like cyber stalking. But to I have adequate information in order to reply sensitively. Like to avoid any political statements if they are from a particular country. In your case I mostly visited to read fanfics 

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

JW's dramas aren't particularly macho

I find joo won's drama's have more action than violence, like we would be jumping from one building to another, or usually punches a guy just to make statement or for self-defense 

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

I can understand your nephew's concern

He is just 8 years old, and the game was like I don't not a traditional online game where other players can talk or insult each other. The main concern for me was like he is kind of too young to identify that female means like weak/something that you should get offended for if you are addressed in female, I tried my best that it is not such a big deal, but it depends on his further socialization at school/college to change his behavior or orientation. 

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

emotional guys were gay, whereas I find that soft masculinity is pretty broadly accepted in Europe and parts of East Asia (including Korea), at least among millennials or younger.

I think that's is a absurd social construct created in medieval time to suppress emotions of men, so that they'll have no problem in fighting war. But still I think it is not the case in most the homosexual community where we can check the boxes on basis of masculinity and femininity in order to identify ones sexual orientation. There are many homosexuals who does not attribute so called "soft behavior" recent example Justice smith who came out as queer. But  I think many queers try to act as masculine as possible in few parts of the world in order to escape persecution or death penalties and that's very sad state of affairs. There was a queer character in Naeil's cantabile , who liked cha yoo-jin, and he thanked him for liking him after a tensed concert in front of his father . I was happy that they did not stigmatized that character, like playing lame jokes 

 

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

some handsome celebrity

Yeah, if being handsome/beautiful is the criterion for being a fan, then he/she would end up fan for everyone in the drama industry. As for me, I too first notice looks in an actress but for me it is just a part of where the actress grab my attention for brief moment. But if her acting doesn't impresses me, I would longer will be watching drama for the actress's looks. Some times it's baffles me that few audience watch drama just for visual of an actor/actress, like if their acting is not good you can just watch their photo shoot on youtube, because such fans causes more harm than good to an actor/actress, because being critical to their acting helps them in improving their acting skills

In this case Joo won is lucky, because his fans and audience in general do not watch for his looks, but for the story/acting and his portraying of a character. If he had delivered an underwhelming performance, it would come to him as feedback from fans, for instance, he got it in his performance of 2D1N variety show, Naeil's cantabile etc. 

[kittyna]

First: check out this gorgeous cake that was ordered by JW's Thai fans 

 

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Oh no, gosh no! You have done a great job writing about male perspective in fan fic, if not the perspective were real and not superficial like some of the fanfics I have read, at least in the case of Joo won's fan fics I can say it was aptly written

 

Well, that's good to know  I think it helps to think that gender is only one of multiple factors in determining someone's personality, and that people are ultimately still human and emotional range is universal. So I let myself get away with, say, having male characters that are more emotive or capable of multitasking (some people assume that guys can only focus on one thing at a time, but I doubt that's always the case).

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I find joo won's drama's have more action than violence, like we would be jumping from one building to another, or usually punches a guy just to make statement or for self-defense 

 

Speaking of punching to make a statement, I think my favourite example of that from JW's dramas is Yong Pal: when Tae Hyun punches the celebrity rapist on the victim's behalf. For everyone else on the 12th floor, that just came out of nowhere; but we as viewers knew it was coming  

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

There was a queer character in Naeil's cantabile , who liked cha yoo-jin, and he thanked him for liking him after a tensed concert in front of his father . I was happy that they did not stigmatized that character, like playing lame jokes 

 

Ma Su Min's counterpart in the Japanese versions of the story was canonically gay, but I do think the lines were blurred a bit more in the Korean version, such that it's left open to interpretation. There's a huge allowance for queer characters in Japanese pop culture, but less in Korea; dramas are more likely to explore openly queer characters now, but it's not too long ago that the trend was still for guys worrying that they were gay only to discover that their supposed "homo crush" was a girl dressed as a guy.

 

And while I'm not 100% sure, I feel like the attitude towards homosexuality in Korea is still a "not in my backyard" mentality: it's okay if it's somewhere out there, in general society, but not when it's my son, or my brother, or my friend, etc. It's this mentality that allows for so much platonic skinship between straight male friends like what we see from JW on 1N2D - if there's any possibility that it may be intended romantically or sexually, the entire atmosphere would just turn awkward. And I've also observed that a lot of cultures and societies that allow for platonic skinship like this (e.g. guys holding hands, hugging in greeting, etc.) are also ones where the underlying assumption is that everyone is straight and that homosexuality is an aberration.

 

So what does this have to do with Ma Su Min? It means that he's written as someone who can be gay, but also someone who can be straight, depending on the interpretation of the viewer. That's done in a couple of ways throughout the drama, but most notably by immediately pairing the other characters' discovery that he "likes" Cha Yoo Jin with Jung Si Won's answer that she "loves" Yuna Kim - I did see one or two comments subsequently wondering if Si Won is also a lesbian, but actually, she's just speaking in terms of being a fan of female celebrities. Coupled with Su Min's own admission that he's "glad to be [Yoo Jin's] fan" at the music festival, and a possibly straight interpretation of the character is set.

 

And for me, personally, that's the interpretation I go with, because my understanding of sexual orientation is that it's referring to who you're literally sexually attracted to - and the admiration for Yoo Jin that I see in Su Min's character doesn't look like sexual attraction to me. But for someone who does see his actions as evidence of sexual attraction, or for someone who defines homosexuality as including emotional attraction in the absence of sexual attraction, then Su Min can be read as a gay character. In short: it all depends on the viewer's definition of queerness or homosexuality.

 

Speaking of "soft" characters in Nae Il's Cantabile, though...you can also say that about Yoo Il Rak or, heck, even Cha Yoo Jin. Okay, Yoo Jin's a bit of a stretch, since his softer side is so deeply buried, but those who know him well know it's there, and the difference between how his parents treat him is that his mom welcomes it and his dad hates it.

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

In this case Joo won is lucky, because his fans and audience in general do not watch for his looks, but for the story/acting and his portraying of a character. If he had delivered an underwhelming performance, it would come to him as feedback from fans, for instance, he got it in his performance of 2D1N variety show, Naeil's cantabile etc. 

 

Criticizing his performance in Nae Il's Cantabile is fair game, but seeing that happen on 1N2D was just painful. JW was criticized for not being funny enough or talkative enough or witty/mischievous enough (i.e. he was the traditional obedient maknae rather than the naughty prankster maknae that variety shows wanted)...like, guys, that's his literal personality, what more do you want???

 

And you can see on 1N2D and in interviews after he left just how much those comments hurt him. My guess is that they were a minority (since many viewers did love his performance), but it was a minority that really got to him. So he kept apologizing to the hyungs for not doing better or not being able to do what audiences wanted him to do, and...no. He can apologize for poor acting all he wants, and he should apologize if he actually did do something wrong, but he should never have to apologize for simply being honest about who he is.

[kireeti2]

20 minutes ago, kittyna said:

Criticizing his performance in Nae Il's Cantabile is fair game, but seeing that happen on 1N2D was just painful. JW was criticized for not being funny enough or talkative enough or witty/mischievous enough (i.e. he was the traditional obedient maknae rather than the naughty prankster maknae that variety shows wanted)...like, guys, that's his literal personality, what more do you want???

I think in the show joo won did had his funny moments and he did made fun of his brothers with his wit and pranks, but I think he was hesitant to push it too far even for the show. Since, average age gap is like 10-15 years, except with that ballad singer, who was also active in the beginning of the show but seem to be retreated like joo won after some time. I think it was partly had to do with director change. I am not blaming director completely, but he did had lack of co-ordination with cast  and crew. In variety show people tend to take it a bit further in toxicity, So we really can't do anything about them. 

24 minutes ago, kittyna said:

Speaking of punching to make a statement, I think my favourite example of that from JW's dramas is Yong Pal: when Tae Hyun punches the celebrity rapist on the victim's behalf. For everyone else on the 12th floor, that just came out of nowhere; but we as viewers knew it was coming  

That scene was perfect, it always brings smile on my face, almost felt like instant justice. But it also brought out Yong-pal out of joo won, since up to that point he was either apologizing or kneeling in front of his superiors for getting caught has Yong-pal

27 minutes ago, kittyna said:

But for someone who does see his actions as evidence of sexual attraction, or for someone who defines homosexuality as including emotional attraction in the absence of sexual attraction, then Su Min can be read as a gay character. In short: it all depends on the viewer's definition of queerness or homosexuality

That's a deep analysis, I never thought of it in that perspective. As soon as I saw his admiration for cha yoo-jin I straight away assumed that he liked him sexually, maybe it can be interpreted as his admiration was  for his piano and conducting skills. You have raised a pertinent point 

 

30 minutes ago, kittyna said:

First: check out this gorgeous cake that was ordered by JW's Thai fans 

It almost looks like a wedding cake

 

33 minutes ago, kittyna said:

while I'm not 100% sure, I feel like the attitude towards homosexuality in Korea is still a "not in my backyard" mentality

It's same in all over Asia, barring Taiwan and Thailand. These countries are quite accommodating for LGTB communities. 

 

35 minutes ago, kittyna said:

JW on 1N2D - if there's any possibility that it may be intended romantically or sexually, the entire atmosphere would just turn awkward. And I've also observed that a lot of cultures and societies that allow for platonic skinship like this (e.g. guys holding hands, hugging in greeting, etc.) are also ones where the underlying assumption is that everyone is straight and that homosexuality is an aberration.

I think it also had to do with western influence sit com shows, I most of the Asian shows took a leaf from shows like "Friends", in which we can observe that as soon as there is platonic angle between to males, they make it  awkward to make audience laugh at it, in other words reduced to a joke. But as they have improved with time I think Asian shows need more time to come to terms with LGTB community existence. Speaking of shows, I have recently saw few Canadian shows with host of diverse characters, for me North America shows was also meant American shows. But after discovering Canadian shows like "Working Moms, Kim's convenience " shows and their positive humor, like making comedic scenes without demeaning the identity of some spectrum of people  was just mind blowing and fun to watch. Kim's convenience is my favorite, up until now I use to think East Asians, especially Koreans would only migrate to USA, due the being major Non- NATO ally, OECD organisation links etc, but it showed me that there are seasonable number of populations of East Asians in Canada, it was refreshing and revelating  at the same time 

[kittyna]

Celebrating Kim Hee Sun's birthday on set(?):

 

 

4 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I think in the show joo won did had his funny moments and he did made fun of his brothers with his wit and pranks, but I think he was hesitant to push it too far even for the show. Since, average age gap is like 10-15 years, except with that ballad singer, who was also active in the beginning of the show but seem to be retreated like joo won after some time.

 

There was, as you've pointed out, a whopping 8-year gap between JW as the maknae and the two other cast members (Sung Si Kyung - the aforementioned ballad singer - and Kim Jong Min) who were tied for second youngest, and that's not even getting into the rest of the Season 2 cast for 1N2D who were definitely well into ahjussi territory. But another major driving factor in this particular cast was that, whether by coincidence or by design, a good half of them were very obviously introverted, JW included. So rather than large-scale games and shenanigans (although JW did play his fair share of pranks), it's the smaller, more intimate friendship moments that I loved most with this particular season.

 

JW's relationship with Sung Si Kyung was really heartwarming and one of my own personal favourites to watch: they were complete strangers when they both started the show, and SSK had a reputation for being a bit cold or gruff on the outside (in other words, not the sort of person who'd respond well to aegyo). But as time went by...they really hit it off. It's noticeable that in partner missions and tasks, JW was one of SSK's go-to choices out of the entire cast, and maybe part of the reason why is because both are more quiet and reserved individuals who are comfortable just hanging out together without speaking much. When Sung Si Kyung wants an assistant for buying or cooking food, for instance, he'd rather go with someone he could trust to just quietly do his part than someone who'd try to strike up conversation while he's at it - and JW does have the right qualities for that. And when they do chat with each other, it's usually about something deep: their shared love of music, for example; or JW's concerns about his acting career. Classic introvert behaviour from both of them 

 

In contrast, JW was a bit more animated and witty when he's working with a more extroverted hyung (especially with Lee Su Geun, who seemed to actively encourage him to be more playful). But, in true introvert fashion, that wasn't his normal/default mode: instead, those moments tended to come out in short bursts before he would retreat back to the sidelines.

 

4 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

That scene was perfect, it always brings smile on my face, almost felt like instant justice. But it also brought out Yong-pal out of joo won, since up to that point he was either apologizing or kneeling in front of his superiors for getting caught has Yong-pal

 

Kim Tae Hyun's a bit of a chameleon: he's good at reading the atmosphere and responding with either stubbornness or deference accordingly. I do feel like his grovelling after he was found out was just as much an act/display as his money-grubbing side was: in his mind, it's just as simple as "Do whatever it takes to live another day, because So Hyun's depending on it".

 

There's this one really powerful camera shot from Episode 2 - when Chief Lee introduces Tae Hyun as his chosen assistant on the 12th floor - where you see Tae Hyun literally crawling to accept a drink from the hospital director. I was struck by how the camera filmed that moment from under the table, so that all we saw of Tae Hyun were his hands and knees: in Korean culture (and, actually, in Chinese culture) it is extremely dehumanizing and degrading to call someone a "dog" or force them to behave like one by making them crawl, but these guys are literally treating Tae Hyun like that...and it's just painful. Powerful, but still painful: because you can see how it's moments like this over all the years of Tae Hyun's life (including, say, watching the doctor in charge of treating his mom ditching her for a VVIP) that have slowly chipped away at his human dignity and self-esteem.

 

But we see in subsequent episodes that Tae Hyun might have thrown away his pride, but he hasn't lost his principles - and that punch was a really epic way of showing it. Like, that celebrity was literally in the middle of inviting Tae Hyun for a drink (i.e. trying to treat him as a friend or associate) when wham! It's a short but very powerfully visual way of showing that even Tae Hyun has his limits on who he's gonna kiss up to. 

 

4 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Speaking of shows, I have recently saw few Canadian shows with host of diverse characters, for me North America shows was also meant American shows. But after discovering Canadian shows like "Working Moms, Kim's convenience " shows and their positive humor, like making comedic scenes without demeaning the identity of some spectrum of people  was just mind blowing and fun to watch. Kim's convenience is my favorite, up until now I use to think East Asians, especially Koreans would only migrate to USA, due the being major Non- NATO ally, OECD organisation links etc, but it showed me that there are seasonable number of populations of East Asians in Canada, it was refreshing and revelating  at the same time 

 

And here's my confession: I very seldom watch North American dramas, so I suck at telling the difference between Canadian and American shows, despite being Canadian myself  It probably doesn't help that most TV networks here show a mixture of both, that a number of Canadian celebrities have moved down to the States over the years, and that even many American shows are filmed in Canada. It's all a bit of a general North American hodgepodge - BUT I can suggest a couple I do know.

 

In addition to Kim's Convenience, other Canadian shows that I know have raised awareness about ethnic/cultural/religious diversity are Little Mosque on the Prairie (a sitcom about the Muslim residents of a small rural town that's still mostly white) and Transplant (a new medical drama set in Toronto about a Syrian refugee who's trying to become a doctor while also caring for his little sister). I watched a bit of Little Mosque and found it a pretty detailed microcosm of Muslim communities and identities as a whole (it has both liberal and conservative characters, people from various generations, converts and people born into Muslim families, Middle Eastern, African, South Asian, and interracial characters, etc.); as for Transplant, it's on my bucket list but I haven't gotten around to watching it yet (the weekly previews for new episodes look more appealing than the American version of Good Doctor, so...).

 

I know that's going off on a tangent for a K-drama fan forum, but I just thought I'd throw those two shows out there in case you're looking for anything else to watch. I'm not sure what's available on which hosting/streaming service online, though - so no guarantees that they're available in India or elsewhere.

[kireeti2]

11 hours ago, kittyna said:

Celebrating Kim Hee Sun's birthday on set(?)

Yup, I have seen her Instagram photos she is celebrating it on sets

11 hours ago, kittyna said:

Korean culture (and, actually, in Chinese culture) it is extremely dehumanizing and degrading to call someone a "dog" or force them to behave like one by making them crawl,

Whoa! Is it that bad? I knew he was begging for his job and life, but I didn't knew it was that dehumanising

 

11 hours ago, kittyna said:

JW's relationship with Sung Si Kyung was really heartwarming and one of my own personal favourites to watch: they were complete strangers when they both started the show, and SSK had a reputation for being a bit cold or gruff on the outside (in other words, not the sort of person who'd respond well to aegyo). But as time went by...they really hit it off. It's noticeable that in partner missions and tasks, JW was one of SSK's go-to choices out of the entire cast, and maybe part of the reason why is because both are more quiet and reserved individuals who are comfortable just hanging out together without speaking much. When Sung Si Kyung wants an assistant for buying or cooking food, for instance, he'd rather go with someone he could trust to just quietly do his part than someone who'd try to strike up conversation while he's at it - and JW does have the right qualities for that. And when they do chat with each other, it's usually about something deep: their shared love of music, for example; or JW's concerns about his acting career. Classic introvert behaviour from both of them 

I too find their friendship heartwarming and fun to watch, it is almost like joo won was a protégé under si kyung for cooking skills, and joo won use to always cook rice

11 hours ago, kittyna said:

when wham! It's a short but very powerfully visual way of showing that even Tae Hyun has his limits on who he's gonna kiss up to. 

Lol! Wham?!  Indeed it was powerful moment

11 hours ago, kittyna said:

Lee Su Geun,

 He was actually the one who always made sure joo won was involved in activities,quiz or making a funny scene and he also tried to set up joo won with a guest idol, maybe her name was yoon-bora. But as usual our joo wonies awkward nature and introvertness made the scene a little dull. But I am sure now he as overcame all those short comings, as now he is senior and will be looking forward to help his juniors with open mind . But after his departure joo won became relatively silent and was hesitant to participate in activities, maybe side effect of doing too many shows at the same time

[kittyna]

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Whoa! Is it that bad? I knew he was begging for his job and life, but I didn't knew it was that dehumanising

 

You ever wonder why "gae saekkie" (i.e. "son of a dog") is such a massive insult in Korean? Now you know  A similar connotation exists in Cantonese as well, where people who are insignificant (and, it's implied, lower class) are referred to colloquially as "pigs and dogs" - for example: "What are you doing? This isn't a place where pigs and dogs can come in!"

 

Of course, culturally, there is now a shift towards dogs being better regarded as pets, as symbols of loyalty, etc., but that wasn't always the case in East Asia.

 

Also, I do want to point out that it's not just a matter of words, but also of body language. Confucian cultures place a lot of emphasis on hierarchy, and posture is one of the most immediately visible indicators of the dynamics in a group. Standing, sitting, kneeling with a straight back, down on hands and knees...those all communicate authority or the lack thereof. Yong Pal had some really good moments showing this (like the one I just described, or the one in Episode 10 when Kim Tae Hyun meets secretly with Han Do Joon - Do Joon's sitting, which shows he's the most senior in the group, while his assistant is standing and Tae Hyun is kneeling), but it shows up in some way, shape or form in all K-dramas.

 

If you've ever wondered why any shot of someone dropping down on their knees from a standing or seated position is such a big "slow mo" deal in K-dramas, it's because the person doing it is putting him/herself in a completely deferential position. You might also notice on shows like 1N2D that the order in which cast members are sitting or kneeling during a meal is age-based - more often than not, everyone's sitting, but if anyone is kneeling, it's always from the youngest up. 

 

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I too find their friendship heartwarming and fun to watch, it is almost like joo won was a protégé under si kyung for cooking skills, and joo won use to always cook rice

 

Yeah - and it's in interactions with JW that we see Sung Si Kyung at his most encouraging as well. At least for Season 2 of 1N2D; he's developed a friendlier variety show persona in the years since.

 

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

But after his departure joo won became relatively silent and was hesitant to participate in activities, maybe side effect of doing too many shows at the same time

 

I think you might be confusing Lee Su Geun with Kim Seung Woo, then - Lee Su Geun stayed on even after JW left the show.  

 

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

he also tried to set up joo won with a guest idol, maybe her name was yoon-bora. But as usual our joo wonies awkward nature and introvertness made the scene a little dull.

 

lol - I remember that JW mentioned on Win Win (which was around the same time as 1N2D) that he's shy and awkward around girls he doesn't know, and that it freaked him out once when a female friend of one of his friends started flirting with him because she mistakenly thought he was playing hard to get. As he put it to the hosts, "But I was just shy!"

[kireeti2]

10 minutes ago, kittyna said:

I think you might be confusing Lee Su Geun with Kim Seung Woo, then - Lee Su Geun stayed on even after JW left the show.  

Lol!! Thanks for pointing it out I was sensing somethings wrong while I was typing, I though both had same surname Lee.

 

12 minutes ago, kittyna said:

lol - I remember that JW mentioned on Win Win (which was around the same time as 1N2D) that he's shy and awkward around girls he doesn't know, and that it freaked him out once when a female friend of one of his friends started flirting with him because she mistakenly thought he was playing hard to get. As he put it to the hosts, "But I was just shy!"

I am sure Joo won had improved it. Not like hitting on women directly, but at least is able to express himself if likes someone

 

13 minutes ago, kittyna said:

friends started flirting with him because she mistakenly thought he was playing hard to get.

He said that he got angry for asking his number or something like that, it had to do with phone number, and the his brothers had to explain him that if girl is asking your number it means she is interested in you. Oh! our joo wonie was such a "sweet summer child", I think now he knows better

[kittyna]

@kireeti2 - I went back as you were reading my comment and elaborated on some stuff. Just in case you missed it  

[kireeti2]

26 minutes ago, kittyna said:

"gae saekkie

Yeah, now I remember hearing it lot times in K-drama, but usual it kind of translates into "jerk, fool or into more sober insults" . Is it a gender neutral term? I remember it has been used against female characters as well. I think joo won had used it more in "Birdal Mask and Baking king: kim ta goo"

 

35 minutes ago, kittyna said:

You ever wonder why "gae saekkie" (i.e. "son of a dog") is such a massive insult in Korean? Now you know  A similar connotation exists in Cantonese as well, where people who are insignificant (and, it's implied, lower class) are referred to colloquially as "pigs and dogs" - for example: "What are you doing? This isn't a place where pigs and dogs can come in!"

 

Of course, culturally, there is now a shift towards dogs being better regarded as pets, as symbols of loyalty, etc., but that wasn't always the case in East Asia.

It is also kind of similar in South Asia, but for "pig" we use it has insult to greedy behavior not to demean them. Dog has a similar insult like in East Asia, but not like calling someone as a "son of dog", but towards someone who has no spine and stays loyal despite immoral acts by the person he/she is loyal

[kireeti2]

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

If you've ever wondered why any shot of someone dropping down on their knees from a standing or seated position is such a big "slow mo" deal in K-dramas,

Now you mentioned it, I recall a scene from the drama "My Mister", in which IU played a lead role(so far the best of her acting it event beats Hotel del Luna). So in an episode main lead's elder brother gets into cleaning business, while he was doing his job he accidental spills something over a gangster/loan shark type of guy and he starts to threaten him to nullify his contract and then the brother falls on his knees for forgiveness even though he was older than that loan shark guy, unfortunately his mother saw this, which was kind of devastating to her and to his whole family. So, what I am trying to ask, Can anyone use it as an excuse like not to  drop on your knees for apologizing in the presence of  family members(specifically in the presence of ones mom/dad)?

 

3 hours ago, kittyna said:

like the one I just described, or the one in Episode 10 when Kim Tae Hyun meets secretly with Han Do Joon - Do Joon's sitting, which shows he's the most senior in the group, while his assistant is standing and Tae Hyun is kneeling

That scene almost felt like an  feudal era moment

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

You might also notice on shows like 1N2D that the order in which cast members are sitting or kneeling during a meal is age-based - more often than not, everyone's sitting, but if anyone is kneeling, it's always from the youngest up. 

Yeah I did observe it, but this kind of seating was more visible in Joo won's drama "Ojakgyo Brothers".

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

1N2D

While we are on topic of 1N2D, Did any of you felt like joo won deliberately acted as fool during general knowledge quiz competition? I know Joo won admits that he is not smart, but for those I think you need to have better memory not critical thinking. So my interpretation was since Joo won doesn't have an outgoing personality like others and he is too shy to make jokes, so the director might have asked him display ignorance in funny way. Like it was the few funny scenes of joo won where he was able to perform like proper variety show member. And one more thing it was hard for me to believe that Kim Jong min was smarter than Sung si kyung, although there is a possibility, but it kind of felt like staged, to extract more laughs from sung si kyung since he was also slightly like Joo won. And also Joo won suppose to fill in the shoes of Lee seung-gi as youngest member of the show, and also Lee sung-gi was known for ignorance as well, so it felt like the writers just continued it with joo won.

3 hours ago, kittyna said:

shot of someone dropping down on their knees from a standing or seated position is such a big "slow mo" deal in K-dramas

Does the same principle apply to Japan? I mean the only cultural exposure I have of Japan is from "Doreamon and Shin chan"

cartoons, so if a character does any mistake they show the character dropping on their knees and bowing continuously apologizing. This was kind of missing in Korean version,I mean they do bow down but only ones or twice, not like continuously like in Japan, at least in cartoon version

[kireeti2]

Lol!! Joo won, a male lead who is playing as a fire fighter hates heat(the irony of this post)   Joo won must be having hard time by wearing those fire fighter suits and gear.

 

 

[kittyna]

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Yeah, now I remember hearing it lot times in K-drama, but usual it kind of translates into "jerk, fool or into more sober insults" . Is it a gender neutral term? I remember it has been used against female characters as well. I think joo won had used it more in "Birdal Mask and Baking king: kim ta goo"

 

Maybe it's gender neutral - I don't know. I think I see it used more in reference to men than women, but if you've heard it for women as well, then I guess it is. I do see that calling a woman a "fox" is an insult, though. Or, maybe, that's just from the Chinese dub (which is how I watch most dramas, to be honest, although I do rewatch JW's in the original Korean).

 

Yeah, I definitely remember JW using language like that in Gaksital and King of Baking, Kim Tak Gu. And there's also that one rather hilarious example in the King of Baking episode of the Happy Together talk show/interview where he's asked to re-enact an argument with one of the hosts and just lets it all out (you can tell they were expecting him to get flustered, but he didn't). He also uses similar words a lot in Yong Pal - which does, I'll admit, add an extra challenge to writing fics for it.

 

8 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

It is also kind of similar in South Asia, but for "pig" we use it has insult to greedy behavior not to demean them. Dog has a similar insult like in East Asia, but not like calling someone as a "son of dog", but towards someone who has no spine and stays loyal despite immoral acts by the person he/she is loyal

 

Pigs and dogs seem to have those associations universally  We also see "dog" being used like that in Gaksital, where people like Lee Kang To are referred to as dogs due to their blind loyalty to the Japanese that's mostly motivated by greed (i.e. the image of a dog that just serves whoever feeds it).

 

6 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

So, what I am trying to ask, Can anyone use it as an excuse like not to  drop on your knees for apologizing in the presence of  family members(specifically in the presence of ones mom/dad)?

 

I'm not entirely sure, to be honest - like, I do seem to recall people asking for that in dramas (e.g. "You want me to kneel? In front of my kids/spouse/parents/etc.?!?!"), but I don't know how effective it actually is as a deferral in real life. I think it would depend on how much the person asking for the apology feels that his/her pride has been wounded - since it does seem to be a matter of pride to deliberately ask someone to kneel in addition to a bow or a spoken apology.

 

The same principles seem to apply when begging or pleading for help, except that the onus now goes the other way, so that the person being knelt to now feels more obligated to honour the request than before.

 

So this is how I think (not know - just think) it works:

• if the person doing the apologizing/begging chooses to kneel voluntarily (e.g. Kim Tae Hyun on numerous occasions in Yong Pal), that's a show of deference, respect, or desperation
• if the person receiving the apology demands that they kneel even after they've apologized (e.g. what happens to Park Sang Hoon in My Ahjussi - awesome drama, by the way), that's an indication that there's wounded pride or a loss of face involved
• if the demand for kneeling is in the context of a request rather than an apology...I dunno, but I think that person's just being a jerk or just trying to show their power, etc.

6 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Yeah I did observe it, but this kind of seating was more visible in Joo won's drama "Ojakgyo Brothers".

 

Point - I just watched 1N2D first, so that's where I first noticed it  

 

6 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Does the same principle apply to Japan? I mean the only cultural exposure I have of Japan is from "Doreamon and Shin chan"

cartoons, so if a character does any mistake they show the character dropping on their knees and bowing continuously apologizing. This was kind of missing in Korean version,I mean they do bow down but only ones or twice, not like continuously like in Japan, at least in cartoon version

 

I don't know, actually - I'm definitely more exposed to Korean shows than Japanese ones, so I can't say for sure. I do know that all three main East Asian cultures (i.e. Chinese, Korean, Japanese) share things in common in terms of body language, but it is highly likely that there will be subtle differences that I haven't accounted for. So, say, I do sense that kneeling holds a different significance in Japan than it does in Korea - in Japan (especially for women, as it's literally physically impossible to sit in kimono ), it looks to be more a signal of formality or respect (so you see it a lot in contexts relating to martial arts, formal ceremonies, etc.); but in Korea, kneeling is far less common and sitting seems to be the default when on the floor.

 

As for bowing, we do see the continuous bowing in some contexts in Korea, but usually it's an indication of extreme gratefulness rather than a norm. Usually - and I think this applies to both Japan and Korea - what matters first is the degree to which someone bows (ranging from a slight nod all the way to a full right angle from the waist), especially in everyday interactions like greetings. I actually think that Nae Il's Cantabile does a great job with this in particular, because you can see how Cha Yoo Jin changes his bows depending on who he's greeting: his deepest bow is towards his father and I think that's supposed to serve as a visual cue as to how dysfunctional their relationship is (since it means that Yoo Jin essentially views his father as a superior/boss rather than as a parent). You can also hear it, as Yoo Jin uses more formal suffixes ("-imnida") with his father than with any of the professors, strangers, etc. ("-yo").

 

6 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

While we are on topic of 1N2D, Did any of you felt like joo won deliberately acted as fool during general knowledge quiz competition? I know Joo won admits that he is not smart, but for those I think you need to have better memory not critical thinking. So my interpretation was since Joo won doesn't have an outgoing personality like others and he is too shy to make jokes, so the director might have asked him display ignorance in funny way. Like it was the few funny scenes of joo won where he was able to perform like proper variety show member. And one more thing it was hard for me to believe that Kim Jong min was smarter than Sung si kyung, although there is a possibility, but it kind of felt like staged, to extract more laughs from sung si kyung since he was also slightly like Joo won. And also Joo won suppose to fill in the shoes of Lee seung-gi as youngest member of the show, and also Lee sung-gi was known for ignorance as well, so it felt like the writers just continued it with joo won.

 

That's a good question. I don't think we'll ever know the actual extent to which shows like 1N2D are scripted - like, I'm sure they're not 100% scripted, but maybe they're scripted like improv is (like what you're saying about the director asking JW to just act like he doesn't know the answers). 

 

However, I do think his performance with general trivia might be genuine, and here's why: knowledge of general trivia is memorized (as you pointed out), but that only comes with exposure. Since JW has been interested in going into drama/theatre/acting at such a young age, it could be that his actual education was relatively narrow compared to a celebrity who studied other things before going into the entertainment industry. So we do see that JW is fine with trivia questions relating to TV shows, for example, but not things relating to history or philosophy or whatever.

 

JW does appear to be quite intelligent, though, even with all those wrong answers. He's got a good short-term memory, being able to quickly pick up song lyrics for a singing challenge or remember small details he's spotted (e.g. that time early on in 1N2D when he managed to memorize the name tag on a display school uniform). He also uses a lot of mental associations to jog his memory, and Sung Si Kyung in particular catches on to that and uses it to help him: e.g. a trivia question about the "salt road" that SSK tries to link to a song JW likes, or a four-character motto that SSK reminds JW shows up a lot in insurance ads. So JW is good at putting ideas together to come up with an answer; it's just that sometimes those associations end up logically sound but still completely wrong (e.g. "Rodin" - he took the phrase "Knowledge is power" and associated that with the famous Thinker sculpture...he even linked the clue that the answer was a food item [bacon] with a Korean food [odeng]).

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Lol!! Joo won, a male lead who is playing as a fire fighter hates heat(the irony of this post)   Joo won must be having hard time by wearing those fire fighter suits and gear.

 

It'd be tough, but he'll manage. I still remember when he literally spent the entire summer of 2014 in long pants, long sleeves, etc. in preparation for Nae Il's Cantabile - I know that's not nearly as hot as firefighter gear in the moment, but he did have to hold out on that consistently for weeks.