LOST

[Guest bazelette]

No frickin way it is a dream! I think it's an alternate timeline that the bomb set off showing what happens if it sets everything back AND what happens when the bomb doesn't set everything back.

Where was Michael and his son in the pilot? And the biggest surprise is Hurley's good luck in the other world...meaning the numbers have turned into something else?

[Guest _dax_]

Okay so I was typing my thoughts bits at a time, while watching the premier....so it's going to be long.

Each cast member is an avatar in a sim-city-like game; similar to the idea of the matrix.

Every action this character makes, it affects the real versions of them in some way.

On the flight in the 'current time' Charlie is shown to have almost died, so this means he possibly survived the submarine explosion in the alternative reality, without anyone knowing yet. Perhaps he will be revealed in later episodes.

So we the viewers are getting a perspective of the 'playing pieces.' How they are confused of their existence.

Like, what if sim city characters could talk sort of thing.

Anyways, so each person has two versions. One trapped in a virtual reality and one who is not. However unlike the matrix, the person in the 'real' world, is not trapped in a dream-like state, sitting strapped onto a chair, but is living day-to-day normal activities, without realizing all of which is really going on.

And then, in this virtual reality, time is in layers. Each layer has a 'character' living the same sequence, essentially "life" but at different points on a time line. So this would explain how they are able to come face to face with themselves.

As for the island itself, I think it could be a middle path between life and death.

Similar to ancient Egyptian beliefs of a judgment day. Each 'virtual' character has a chance to reverse their sins, and return to "the real world" or "die" on the island and finally cross over into "the real afterlife" either heaven or hell.

The water ritual was Sayid's final judgment. The hour glass represented how many good deeds he reversed while on the island. If he remained alive until the last drop of sand, it would mean he was "saved." He almost made it, but unfortunately he didn't do enough good deeds.

The temple people are the ones at the top of the hierarchy. The ones in charge, the "law-makers"

Jacob seems to be the next most important, followed by Richard. Not too sure on this.

As for John Lock, I think the 'virtual' him is dead. The 'new' John Lock is a re-incarnation, hence why he had memories from the old John Lock. Jacob represents the good; who interacts with the 'characters' convincing them to think over their actions, and Lock represents the bad; who sways others onto the dark side; how he encouraged Ben to kill Jacob is evidence of this.

As well, Sayid rose from the dead. Saeid was already tested, with results of not being good enough.

Him regaining consciousness shows the temple people, that "evil" is on the rise, that Lock is a huge threat to the afterlife system and will upset the balance.

[Guest Nana]

As well, Sayid rose from the dead. Saeid was already tested, with results of not being good enough.

Him regaining consciousness shows the temple people, that "evil" is on the rise, that Lock is a huge threat to the afterlife system and will upset the balance.

If that were the case wouldn't Sayid rising from the dead be a bad thing? But I thought it was good because when they arrived, the temple people said, if your friend dies we're in a lot of trouble. Technically Sayid is not dead. So that should be a good omen. Jacobs death I'd think shows people that evil is on the rise and that the balance has shifted.

I'm so heartbroken over the whole Locke thing. He was my favorite. BEN! :fury:

[Guest Myss Blewm]

Maybe it's a clue. Juliet's detonation of the bomb was successful in changing the timeline.

Didn't the very first pilot episode of the show premiere on a Tuesday?

I can't recall the pilot but I do remember "Lost" was on Wednesdays because I'd watch "America's Next Top Model" before "Lost" for quite awhile. I've grown old and my memory lacks. Maybe I just really like Wednesdays.

Okay, one thing that stuck out in my mind: when Man in Black/Smoke Monster/Locke told Richard that it was nice to see him out of chains, or something along that line, I take it that it means Richard was a slave on the Black Rock. Because if not, that was the only somewhat impressive theory I thought of whilst watching the show.

I think the two universes can mean either

1) We are watching what is really going on (they're still on the island), and we get to look into the world of "what if" (they landed in LA back when they were all on Oceanic Flight 815).

OR

2) After detonating the hydrogen bomb the islanders are still on the island. The events we see with the LA landing is what happened after the island drama. Meaning, Jack and Company found another way to alter their past that will be revealed in a much later episode.

[Guest iEatPowder]

First off, it was great seeing Boone, Charlie, Claire, and everyone else. I liked the camera tricks they used on Charlie to make it seem like it wasn't Dominic Monaghan when he was passed out in the bathroom by conveniently covering his face. And then... surprise! It was him! I didn't like that Jin was back to his old, mysogynistic and control-freak self again. But that dude's been working out! You see the guns on Jin when he was carry Sayid in the stretcher??

No frickin way it is a dream! I think it's an alternate timeline that the bomb set off showing what happens if it sets everything back AND what happens when the bomb doesn't set everything back.

Yes, I too believe we are witnessing an alternate timeline/reality of what happened if the Island never came to be due to the atomic bomb's detonation. Concurrently, we are witnessing the "normal" timeline/reality in which the survivors are still on the Island. Several events have led me to this hypothesis:

- Farraday said you can't change what's already happened, which is why the survivors are still on the island.

- Miles, after communing with Juliet's corpse, tells Sawyer that "It worked." I'm assuming she's referring to the detonation of the atomic bomb "working," causing the new timeline/reality to form at that pivotal event in time.

Okay, one thing that stuck out in my mind: when Man in Black/Smoke Monster/Locke told Richard that it was nice to see him out of chains, or something along that line, I take it that it means Richard was a slave on the Black Rock. Because if not, that was the only somewhat impressive theory I thought of whilst watching the show.

I think the two universes can mean either

1) We are watching what is really going on (they're still on the island), and we get to look into the world of "what if" (they landed in LA back when they were all on Oceanic Flight 815).

OR

2) After detonating the hydrogen bomb the islanders are still on the island. The events we see with the LA landing is what happened after the island drama. Meaning, Jack and Company found another way to alter their past that will be revealed in a much later episode.

I was quite curious about "Man in Black's" remark to Richard too. I couldn't come up with any theories aside from the same one you stated. All we know is he was a captive at one point in time. The question regarding his longevity in life also remains to be answered. Perhaps his unnaturally long life has something to do with the Fountain (of Youth?)?

As for your theories on the two realities, both are quite valid. #1 would definitely explain how Desmond was also on the "new" Oceanic flight 815. He would have finished sailing that race around the world just in time to fly back to LA (where he originally met Jack while running stairs).

Ummm... ya. Disagree on most points. Your theories, while you are entitled to form them, are convoluted to the point of corniness.

With regards to your hierarchy, Jacob would most definitely be the top tier. The Japanese guy/Richard would probably fall somewhere under Jacob. Richard for obvious reasons (he answers to Jacob and is his personal messenger of sorts, along with the gift of eternal life/youth). The Japanese guy is also below Jacob because of his reaction when Hugo mentioned the name Jacob/ When he read the message hidden in the ankh/ when Hugo asked what was on the letter and the translator said they'd be in big trouble if Sayid and company were not saved.

[Guest _dax_]

"if your friend dies we're in a lot of trouble"

True. This part doesn't really fit in with my ideas.

I wonder what the temple people mean by this.

Interesting.

Ummm... ya. Disagree on most points. Your theories, while you are entitled to form them, are convoluted to the point of corniness.

Not sure why you felt the need to tack the bit on at the end, no matter how proper you word it, but okay then.

The fourth dimension, time travel, parallel universes, worm holes; all fall under contraversal "science."

The idea of time in layers is an interesting read here:

Level I Multiverse: [1] [2]

By "virtual" I mean to say, other existence of the same person, for lack of a better word.

Anyhow, your post was an interesting read. Hopefully more questions will be answered in the next few episodes.

[Guest HERMIT]

The popular notion is that upon Juliet's striking of the Jughead bomb, there was the creation of two alternate universes: one in which the plane never crashes and another in which the Losties are still stuck on the Island.

But maybe this is not the case. What happens when Juliet strikes the bomb? Is there an explosion? No. There was a flash. A flash more descriptive of a time jump rather than a nuclear blast. Remember too, that this occurred at the Swan station, the location of unstable electromagnetic energy and prime breeding ground for unpredictable time flashes.

Hence, what our unwitting Losties experienced was not really a "game changer" event that produced two alternate universes (from the audience's perspective) but just another run of the mill time flash that now places our 1977 Dharma Losties back to the same timeline as the 2007 Ajira 816 survivors.

How do we know this?

We know this because once the then-1977 Losties find their way to the Temple - and then those "Temple Others" later scramble to battle stations and fire off warning flares/fireworks into the sky - we see that the 2007 Ajira 816 survivors on the beach by the Four-Toed Statue are also able to see those flares/fireworks explode in the sky. Hence, the 1977 Losties have transported to the 2008 time. (Further evidence how we know they are in the "present time" is how the 1977er's found the remains of Montand, the Frenchman that had his arm torn off by Smokey - around 1988 when Rousseu and the French team arrived on the Island. If they were still in 1977, those remains would not be there.)

So, this idea of two alternate universes could just simply be a sneaky smokescreen set up by the creators of the show.

One only needs to remember the popular storytelling device that was frequently used throughout the series: flashbacks and flashforwards.

A working hypothesis could be made that the scenes of Oceanic 815 are the flashforwards and the scenes of the Losties on the Island are actually the flashbacks. Neither of them are concurrent timelines as we are led to believe.

In essence, what we are seeing of the Oceanic 815 flight/LAX scenes are the beginning stages of the actual end of the series and the consequent wrapping up of the individual storylines of each major character.

The scenes of the Losties on the Island are merely the flashbacks describing the how in which this 815 flight was made possible without crashing. In other words, it's not what Juliet did with the bomb that allowed Oceanic 815 to land safely; rather, it is what we are about to see on these upcoming Island sequences during this last season that will describe how that plane landed safe and sound in LAX.

Now, as to what will transpire during these flashback sequences on the Island, it's still too early to tell. But if the hypothesis holds true, it could be theorized that it will describe what the reunited 1977 Losties and 2007 Ajira 316 survivors did on the Island to secure the resulting fate of the Oceanic flight 816 not crashing in 2004. Perhaps there will be another time flash to rectify the timeline disparity of how something happening in 2007 procured a safer flight in 2004.

Judging from the events occurring towards the end of the season 6 premiere, it's likely we'll see the anticipated war on the Island as Widmore had predicted. Maybe such a war will result in the Island being rendered harmless by being dislocated in both time and place. In other words, the end result could very well place the Island deep underwater at a distance at which it cannot be reached - and at a time evidently well before the Oceanic 816 flight takes place.

Even as early as this very first episode we might already have a hint as to who our hero could be: Jack.

Jack could be the only one to figuratively "survive" - subconsciously, at least? - the war/Island timeline as he's the only major character to display hints of recollecting that other time (maybe he too accomplishes consciousness time travel like Desmond?). He seems to notice how he looks different/older when he sees himself in the bathroom mirror on the plane. He notices that he's cut on the neck - perhaps a 'souvenir' from battling to secure the safety of his friends. He even seems to recollect Desmond as he took an aisle seat next to his.

For once, maybe Jack was able to fix things once and for all. He was able to make things right for himself and for everyone. After all, as he said to Locke after he offered a free medical consultation:

"Nothing is irreversible."

(Disclaimer: I cannot take entire credit for all this as I've incorporated some brilliant insight from The Fuselage and Dark UFO along with some thoughts of my own)

[Guest NanaMun]

A lot of occurrences happened when I watched the premiere last night. First, I was right about a few things, second, they threw a series of curve-balls that left me dumbfounded and last, they answered quite a handful of questions (What's in the guitar case, who is the smoke monster?).

I saw an interesting theory in this thread. The pool where Sayid was placed and the hour glass being a test in order for him to be saved. Interestingly enough, I thought of baptism when watching that scene and the way they carried him out...was interesting. His "death" was anti-climatic, so I wasn't fearful that he was a total goner, but I am a little curious as to how someone is miraculously alive after 10 minutes of, you know, being dead. So another interesting theory I saw: Sayid = Jacob. That could be far fetched, but it is a nice thought, although it doesn't fit with Sayi'd's words, "What happened?"

I am very interested as in just what happened to the lsland in the other timeline. Did that explosion kill everyone and cause some impact that made the ocean swallow the island?

Kind of off topic: But did anyone find Sawyer and Charlies angry at Jack hilarious? There is this guilty face that Jack makes when he knows he messed up. One of the best Jackfaces.

And it just kills to see Juliet die...again.

[Guest iEatPowder]

A lot of occurrences happened when I watched the premiere last night. First, I was right about a few things, second, they threw a series of curve-balls that left me dumbfounded and last, they answered quite a handful of questions (What's in the guitar case, who is the smoke monster?).

I saw an interesting theory in this thread. The pool where Sayid was placed and the hour glass being a test in order for him to be saved. Interestingly enough, I thought of baptism when watching that scene and the way they carried him out...was interesting. His "death" was anti-climatic, so I wasn't fearful that he was a total goner, but I am a little curious as to how someone is miraculously alive after 10 minutes of, you know, being dead. So another interesting theory I saw: Sayid = Jacob. That could be far fetched, but it is a nice thought, although it doesn't fit with Sayi'd's words, "What happened?"

The Spring (as it is referred to) is probably meant to heal wounds. The translator tells his men to bring Sayid to the Spring and says that if they do not save Sayid, they're in trouble. The translator remarks that the spring's water was not clear, perhaps implying that it did not work properly. To further that theory, the Japanese man cuts his hand to test the water to see if it would heal his cut, but it fails to.

On a completely different note, near the end of the premiere, Hugo tells Sayid's corpse that he's there for him if he ever needs to talk. Hugo then looks up to see Miles looking around conspicuously, which begs the question of whether or not Miles was communing with Sayid's dead body. Just a thought.

[Guest Myss Blewm]

^ My brother kept saying that Sayid wasn't dead because Miles was looking around. There, he insisted, meant that Miles couldn't speak to Sayid, which pointed to the fact that Sayid was not dead. I didn't believe him until Sayid sat up.

I am anticipating for when Desmond arrives again, because Eloise Hawking did tell him that the island is not done with him yet.

[Guest _dax_]

I don't recall Richard Alpert being referred to as "Japanese;" please enlighten me.

[Guest HERMIT]

I don't recall Richard Alpert being referred to as "Japanese;" please enlighten me.

I don't think iEatPowder was referencing Richard and the Japanese guy as being one and the same.

He's probably referring to Dogen, the apparent leader of the these Temple Others (as played by Hiroyuki Sanada).

[sweetcream]

I think Terry O'Quinn, the actor who plays John Locke, is so great.

To go from happy John, to sad John, to someone evil taking over, is amazing.

Watching the premiere reminded me that one of the great things I love about Lost besides the story and characters, is the cast.

[Guest _dax_]

I don't think iEatPowder was referencing Richard and the Japanese guy as being one and the same.

He's probably referring to Dogen, the apparent leader of the these Temple Others (as played by Hiroyuki Sanada).

That makes sense. Excuse my sleeping mind.

[Guest iEatPowder]

I don't think iEatPowder was referencing Richard and the Japanese guy as being one and the same.

He's probably referring to Dogen, the apparent leader of the these Temple Others (as played by Hiroyuki Sanada).

Yep.

His name is Dogen?

[Guest HERMIT]

His name is Dogen?

Yup.

From Lostpedia.com: Dogen

But you are correct in that his name hasn't been mentioned on the show yet. It's just that this site keeps track of actors that are due to appear on future shows and this was the character name to which he had been credited.

[Guest iEatPowder]

Yup.

From Lostpedia.com: Dogen

But you are correct in that his name hasn't been mentioned on the show yet. It's just that this site keeps track of actors that are due to appear on future shows and this was the character name to which he had been credited.

Sweet. Thanks for the link.

[Guest HERMIT]

^

No problem. Lostpedia.com is evidently the "Wikipedia of all things LOST".

I love how comprehensive the site is for just this TV show. It can tell you everything about any character, give you complete episode recaps for every season, and even give you episode transcripts of dialogue. If you are like a lot of other LOST fanatics that like to propose their own pet theories, this site is an invaluable tool to help you search for supporting evidence from the show in formulating your ideas.

[Guest MUXU]

i just watched the premiere and been reading and watching into some different theories of the show. i gotta say im most taken with what you posted.

at first i thought the going back and forth of on plane and on island was 2 parallel time lines but i think that is too simple of an idea for the writers to pull off. anyways, one is happening in 2004 and the other is happening in 2007/8.

maybe they really are doing something in the future to change the past and whatever they did it worked.

[Guest HERMIT]

i just watched the premiere and been reading and watching into some different theories of the show. i gotta say im most taken with what you posted.

at first i thought the going back and forth of on plane and on island was 2 parallel time lines but i think that is too simple of an idea for the writers to pull off. anyways, one is happening in 2004 and the other is happening in 2007/8.

maybe they really are doing something in the future to change the past and whatever they did it worked.

Thanks. Although, like yourself, I read a number of other theories from other sources and often times incorporate parts of some with parts of others and then mix in a few thoughts of my own. So I can't say it's completely original thinking.

But just to elaborate more on this split or concurrent alternate/parallel reality notion that viewers are taking in regards to the Season 6 premiere, I'm just being skeptical that this is just a diversionary road that the creators are taking us on. In the past season or two, the philosophical question for the show and its characters had principally been 'Is it free will or is it destiny/fate?'. With the complication of time travel being introduced into the mythology, the arguments for each side was put to the test as the characters - now being in the past - had the opportunity to exercise their free will in ways that they believed would truly affect their destinies/fates. And up to the point of the season 5 finale, the consensus seemed to be - at least from the viewpoint of the writers/creators - that "whatever happened, happened". You can't change the past. But by season's end, it was ironic to note that while free will was actively exercised, it still only served to seal the fate that they knew of all along.

So, to watch the Season 6 premiere and observing what appears to be two alternative timelines, it just seems to be a disappointing development in terms of changing the storytelling dynamic. Where once there was just one timeline along which the characters bounced around back and forth, essentially making decisions and taking actions that ultimately only served to insure that whatever happened, happened, all of a sudden we are subjected to alternate realities? If you as a viewer step back from the story itself, it seems like such a drastic storytelling change on the part of the creators to have to resort to this late in the game - and for the last season, nonetheless. We were promised more definitive answers, not another game-changing question that will only serve to spawn more questions - if not more confusion. But if season 6 is indeed truly an introduction to alternate realities and parallel universes, then it just seems like such a cop out and a case of the creators 'having their cake and eating it too'. Why bother begging the question of 'free will vs destiny' when you're just going to introduce scenarios that accommodate both?

However, it is my hope that the creators are much smarter than that and hence, my belief that this curious change in storytelling dynamic is merely a ruse in disguising the fact that what we are watching is just a creative variation on the flashforward and flashback storytelling device that they've always enlisted throughout the 5 seasons. As we've watched this show, we need only to remind ourselves that from our LOST heroes' perspectives, time has always moved forward linearly, even as they've bounced around the timeline. They start in Sept 2004, proceed forward to Dec 2004, and then after that one group proceeds onward from 2005-2007 (Oceanic 6) while another group proceeds 'forward' from 1974-1977 (Dharma Losties). But as this is happening there are two key things to note: 1. for all involved, despite whatever time period they're in, it is their present tense from their perspective, and 2. for the 1974-77 group, despite being in the past, they were unable to do anything to change it during this specific time frame.

But now, with the beginning of season 6, we see that Jack's 'free will' intention to change the 'future' did not occur*. There was no nuclear blast, nobody was vaporized, the Island is still intact, and the only thing that happened is that the 1977ers find themselves propelled back into the "present tense" of 2007. And from a storytelling standpoint, it's again important to note that 2007 is the Losties' present (although it's now 2010). So a hypothesis can be presented that whatever actions they take from here on out for the remainder of Season 6 will affect a future that is yet to be determined. And with that said, this presents my current theory: that this as-yet undetermined future is represented by the off-Island sequences we are now seeing unfold through this successful Oceanic 815 landing. In other words, a flashforward - but from the Losties' perspective. So, rather than it being the failed 1977 Jughead detonation, the Dharma 77ers and the Ajira survivors will somehow figure out a different solution during their 2007 time frame as to how to prevent the 2004 Oceanic 815 crash from happening.

And hence, this is to imply that where it seems that (from seasons 4-5) you could not change whatever happened from happening, you still exercise free will in the present (2007, from the Losties POV) in hopes of procuring a desired 'future' - the resulting 2004 Oceanic 815 safe landing. (I know this sounds confusing, but when viewed in the context of what the Losties perceive as their present condition and what will be their future, it makes a little bit more sense. I hope. )

(* Now, for those who still would like to hold onto the notion of alternate realities - most specifically, that Juliet successfully detonated the bomb to destroy the Island and insured the safe 2004 landing of Oceanic 815 - I pose to you some realistic questions and observations:

If you blow up a nuclear device, would it not cause great destruction? Say, something at least to the extent of the destruction witnessed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - where buildings were leveled and everything was destroyed beyond recognition across a widespread blast radius? If this is the case, then explain to me how it is in this so-called 'alternate reality' - with the Island now completely underwater, that the sonar fence, the Dharma barracks, and the 4 toed statue still remain relatively intact? The underwater setting as presented does not seem indicative of a resultant atomic blast. Rather, it might be argued that the Island was now just wholly displaced not only by location but perhaps also time (since it wasn't underwater in the 'original' 2004). Perhaps this is more the result of something that we are about to see this upcoming season?)

-> now watch as everything that I've just typed gets royally blown out of the water by episode 2.