[동방신기] Dbsk, Tvxq, Thsk Official Thread 4

[Guest ferrel2010]

HOPE TO THE END, EVERYONE!!

Like 'PURPLE LINE' that our boys sing which has meaning... PURPLE LINE - BEHIND THE HORIZON THERE IS A HOPE..

[Guest Cerci]

I hope this isn't considered spamming, but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone providing us with translations.

(...and dude, I always said I would never have a twitter account, but I'll be darned if I didn't just create an acct. to try to help them be a 'Trending Topic', or whatever that is...)

Stay strong boys! Stay strong Cassies!

Hope to the End!

[Guest ferrel2010]

HOPE TO THE END, EVERYONE!!

Like 'PURPLE LINE' that our boys sing which has meaning... PURPLE LINE - BEHIND THE HORIZON THERE IS A HOPE..

[Guest greenteadrinker]

This is maybe one of the reason why Yunho and Changmin did not join JJ, Chun and Junsu for legal action.

Their activities in Korea are organized by SM, including their participation in drama.

Yunho's Heading to the Ground is planned to be broadcasted in September, while Changmin's will be aired in August.

I remember someone mentioned that 5 of them actually went to meeting with lawyers.

So, maybe they actually wanted to take legal action as well, but then they found that SM has already arranged their involvement in the drama.

I believe they actually aware if the injuction are approved, then the shooting of drama will be stopped and it will affect broadcast schedule and many other people who also involved. And I believe Yunho and Changmin are not the kind of people who wouldn't care about it.

I believe in all of them, 5 of them.

Every little step must have been thought carefully.

They've had time of hardship in life before, so if they are brave enough to take this kind of action, I'm sure it's something serious.

Always Keep the Faith.

You're so right, I think this is definitely what's going on! And I wouldn't put it past SM to deliberately arrange it such that HoMin are involved in the drama. It is all too sudden that both Yunho and Changmin begin filming dramas at the same time. Yunho, I could sort of understand but then just days later they announced Changmin as well, that's no coincidence.

SM have tried this strategy to separate their idol groups before. They're probably trying to make it seem like it's HoMin vs. JaeChunSu and they are using the media to do so! We shouldn't fall for it. DBSK are united. Give all the members your full support because they more than deserve it!!!

Edit: Yeah, the Singapore Straits Times' reporting standards have really declined over the past few years. Most of their international news is now second/third hand information they get from biased sources. I always read the ST with a pinch of salt. Yet they're supposed to be the most credible newspaper in the country, that's so sad.

[Guest hanna1430265987]

Korean boy band TVXQ speak out about split rumours

Posted: 03 August 2009 1710 hrs

Three members of Korean boy band TVXQ have filed for termination of their contracts with management company SM Entertainment.

SEOUL : One of Korea’s most popular boy bands TVQX (otherwise known as Dong Bang Shin Gi) are causing all their fans around Asia to panic as speculation of a possible disbandment runs rye.

Korean media reported that three of the group’s five members, had filed for termination of their contracts with the group’s managing company, SM Entertainment, in a Seoul court on Friday. They were reportedly unhappy with the unreasonable working hours and unfair contract.

Xiah, Hero and Micky’s representative revealed through news media on Monday that since joining the band in 2003, the stars have been working non stop, travelling in and out of Korea for promotional events and surviving on just three to four hours of sleep each day. As a result, they have become mentally fatigued and their health, greatly affected.

Their rep added that the trio feel that for the past five years, they were just money making tools for SM and have not been able to fulfil their ambitions and visions for the band.

Other bones of contention include their record royalties and contracts which members deemed unfair and tied them to SM for too long. Though they signed 13-year contracts, this excluded the time spent in military service, and would eventually exceed 15 years. The members had repeatedly requested for revisions to the contracts but to no avail.

Xiah, Hero and Micky have maintained that they are taking legal action in a bid to free themselves from contract restraints, and have no intentions to disband the group.

Meanwhile, the pop quintet which include members U Know and Max, are expected to appear as scheduled together at all their other working engagements.

“As a representative group to the country and to Asia, our stand is that activities for Dong Bang Shin Gi have to continue even with this disposition application. And about the problems arising from the discussion to do a cosmetic enterprise, we plan to talk over them and sort out the problems as soon as possible,” read SM Entertainment’s statement.

“On SM’s side, we still have much love for Dong Bang Shin Gi. We do not want them to disband,” said an SM Entertainment representative, “Let’s resolve this peacefully seeing the long time we have worked together since their debut till now.”

credit : Channel News Asia, Singapore.

[Guest jas_cuzzie]

with smtown concert coming up in 2 weeks time, i guess dbsk probably won't be performing then? it's gonna be weird seeing suju, shinee, snsd on stage without the dongbang boys. it kinds saddens me.

I have a feeling that they're gonna leave SM, though I'm pretty sure they probably won't disband. not sure whether homin would be able to follow jaechunsu since their contracts are supposedly different?

if they do win and continue to stay with SME, i shudder at the thought about how things would be like working with the same company again. it would be bloody awkward aint it?

and I know many cassies are elfs too, dbsk and suju boys are tight as hell, so I'm curious to know what they would do as well if dbsk decides to leave.

[Guest chyna]

with smtown concert coming up in 2 weeks time, i guess dbsk probably won't be performing then? it's gonna be weird seeing suju, shinee, snsd on stage without the dongbang boys. it kinds saddens me.

I was thinking of the same thing, if the injunction was approved, what would hapen to the boys?? SM concert would feel empty if they did not participate (their MIROTIC album was so successful last year! its not sm family without them *cries*) And while they wait for the problem in court to be resolved, what would they be doing?

[Guest krist_dbsk]

smtown concert? if the three of them cant perform only

Yunho and Changmin, do you think dbsk fans will still come, it may like

the last year,just because of what happen to dream concert, not so many came to

smtown concert. what will happen this year?

hope the boys can perform

HWAITING<3

[Hangbum]

The media really is going crazy >___<

Everything's just exploding with dbsk, they really must be tired

It was actually heartbreaking to hear someone is displeased with Homin.

Really unbelievable.

Now is not the time to be bickering among ourselves. Whatever our differences of opinions are, we have to be united.

What TVXQ needs right now is our unwavering support, not our arguments, questions, or demands.

Totally agreed. DBSK, fighting. Standing by u always & forever <3

I'm sure most of you are going through anxiety so please everyone, stay healthy and get some sleep! Along with dbsk !

We need to save our strength to keep supporting DBSK ! FIGHTING FANS! (L)

DBSK, everyone needs you. We're waiting, waiting for your smiles again. Hopefully you can feel our love for you. Everyone's fighting for you all! This may be the cajillionth time but DBSK FIGHTING, fighting.

Everyone here, thank you translators for the news ^^; I love everyone's support and encouragement towards the five (L) The posts I read today were just ... amazing & touching. I know, truly, that you all are great--beyond great people.

I know my post isn't as important as some may think but I just wanted to share how I feel. I love DBSK, we all love DBSK, and ... that's just admirable =D

And as for Yunho's drama, he looks so cute :3 Can't wait for his drama to come out!

Jae does look tired in the A-Nation >__< Stay strong Jae !

PURPLE LINE - BEHIND THE HORIZON THERE IS A HOPE

They have such sweet meanings to their songs (L)

Kim JaeJoong, Kim Junsu, Jung Yunho, Park Yoochun, Shim Changmin - Giving you our best support ! AJA.

Always have faith, hope to the end, Dong Bang Shin Ki.

[Guest lilies_009]

OMG...

this is totally blowing out of proportion

as i backtracked i read quite a few post errr... asking Yunho to be Man enough and face this?

ehhh.... as if he's not?

come on.. what do you expect from the guy?

run away from his obligations including the recent drama he's filming?

yeah right! that would lead to another court case.. JUNG YUNHO being sued for breaching a contract!

ghaaa i guess that's even the main reason why he can't go and file a case against SM like JaeChunSu because he already signed a contract for the drama.. Same goes with Changmin!

Yes they're just filming the scenes of the drama now... but it doesn't mean that they just signed the contract recently!

for all we know they signed it a few months ago... or even a year ago! (i dunno!)

how can an individual say that Yunho is happily filming??

are you even there when he's not in front of the camera?

Yunho is a better man than that...

more than the other members he's the one who is the most stress out at this moment! he's the leader after all...

TVXQ for me is not just a band... they're BROTHERS!!

now.... please...

don't even question their loyalty and friendship with each other

Esp Yunho's loyalty and dedication to his members...

not unless his fellow TVXQ says so...

[i wont even believe that the four guys will question his dedication to the group]

LOL sorry for my sarcasm!

TVXQ Fighting!!!!

for the brighter side...

aww... i'm excited to watch Yunho and changmin's new drama...

i will support it for shure!

LOL

Yay!

anyway... have you tried eating raw chili dipped in tomato ketchup?

LOL don't even try it! it's awful (i dunno i just don't like it)

nyahahaha that was totally random! (but it made you laugh right?)

[Nirvana]

Okay, I just want to ask, about DBSK resigning their contract back in 2008 or like a year ago? (the last time they did)

Are there any official news on it that they resign their contract?

Because it does not sound like they resign their contract, heck it doesn't even sounded like their contract ended yet. Which is why they are asking for an injunction for a revision.

Debut in 2004/ 2005 - 2009 so far it's five years, but before, we don't know how long their contract was right? Yet, everyone in 2008 said that they resign, but I don't see an article on it, a legit one.

Also, do SME sign contract with Trainee? I thought someone said that it is after the training, during the time where they were about to debut, is when the contract was made since everyone is saying that they sign the contract after training end.

Now the report is 13 years contract.

See the confusion? And all I want is to see the official article from last year that said that they resign their contract.

If you don't get what I'm trying to ask, ask these questions yourself, keep in mind the resigning of the contract from last year and the news report talking about a 13 years contract

1. Shouldn't SME give out these contract when the artist were nobody? Because only those with no title who wanted to be famous will agreed to this.

2. How do you know how long DBSK's contracts were before? If the news of the 13 years contract shocked you so much.

3. Were there any official news on them resigning their contract? If so, articles? I like to see myself. Also, if they resign their contract from last year, that was the end of their last contract. - 2008

4. How long were each member of DBSK trained for? Each member training period were different, Junsu was the longest I heard?

5. Do SME make them sign this as a trainee or after the trainee days? To add up the years to see how many years their contract was and is. If you add up the years, during the time they debut, 2004 till 2008 = 4 years. If they are to be sign as a trainee, remember that each member was taking in SME a different time. The longest was Junsu I think? 6 years? but if you add 6 + 4 = 10 years. And I'm sure the other members' "first" contract which ended in 2008 (I recall everyone said they resign) all add up to being short compare to this 13 years contract that we all are in for a shock. And no doubt, if you just only count that they are sign after trainee days, it'll be shorter.

6. Who the hell would sign a 13 years contract after a short contract?

7. Had it occur to you that they never resign their contract? And that it's still the same one?

Yes this in all is confusing if you think about it clearly.

So stop saying like you know everything. (To those that assumed they know every thing)

Why are you questioning DBSK's bond? When they go through a lot together as five young men with different thinking, but the same goal, that is to reach everyone with their voices and music. They were somebody in their homeland, yet they threw all that away and start all over in a foreign land. Going through all the suffering and hardships with just them, if anyone, it would be the five of them that know each other best. Regardless of the idea of people sometime drifting away from each other, but if you went through hardships with them, you will not drift away from them that easily. Think back on their goal and their hardships in Japan. Because that really shows them as a team and their friendships. Think about Tokyo Dome mostly. That huge stage that they always dream of. Standing together up there, wouldn't you think they knew that they only made it with all five, one team and not individually or with two teams?

If they can make it that far, why should this be effecting them? So wouldn't it be obvious that they are all in it together, but just with different approach since they are five men with different thinking after all.

If they told you to trust what they said, then do so at times like this, because they did work their asses off to make you happy.

Even if they are selfish and greedy, wanting money like some people assumed. But they did work for it, it's not like they just half arsed everything and now asking for money, they work for them. So it's right for them to be greedy. Since they use their strength to earn it. It's common sense.

If they were payed for since trainee days, wouldn't they pay it back by now? Since I'm sure SME isn't that stupid to invest like million of dollars or billion of won on a few kids. So wouldn't they pay all that back by now, with interest even >_>.

I should go to sleep now. Good luck and look forward to a better future for a better DBSK, as long as they are happy.

[Guest unruffledchua]

Dear all,

I applaud DBSK for taking responsibility for their careers and standing up to their company,the biggest entertainment company in Korea, in their own ways. The decision to enter this legal battle is a huge one for them and I believe all 5 members must have definitely talked and agonised over this matter before taking this stand. YunHo and ChangMin are taking resposibility for DBSK by still continuing to work on the projects given to them by their company. JaeChunSu are taking responsibility for DBSK by telling the truth of their current physical and mental states and to find a way out for the group so that they can have a healthier, better, fairer, long lasting future. DBSK is fighting for a cause for all current and future artists who have a passion for music. I strongly believe they are together in this even though they are doing it in different ways. Who is not to say that it could be strategic that HoMin is out of this first round as they could be involved in a second round of battle with the company should JaeChunSu loses.(Which I hope is not the case...) I believe DBSK is in this to WIN this big case,therefore they have to be strategic. No doubt, their love for one another will be tested during these hard times and therefore they will mature. For TRIALS PRODUCES PERSEVERANCE, PERSEVERANCE CHARACTER AND CHARACTER,HOPE. That's maturing. All we can do as fans is to stay quietly by their side and encourage them with our prayers and presence. The boys are weary...and still have to fight this and do whatever they need to to survive as an artist. Love them by thinking before posting anything harsh against them. In essence, be KIND, ok?

Lastly, just to share something from DBSK's Christmas album that I really love.

Prayer

Please let the words that we say

Not be an evil smell

But rather with frangrant words

Let us leave fragrant echoes.

Please let all our words be ones

That plant seeds in our neighbours' hearts

To become flowers of joy

And let it become a song of peace

Little by little,

Making the world a brighter place

Please do not let us speak of

Gossip and rumors that help no one

And with clean hearts

Let us hear clean words.

Please let me speak of loving words

With a loving heart

Not to think of myself first,

But instead put myself in the other person's shoes.

And let me speak positive words

With a positive heart

To look at my good points

Instead of the bad points.

As if giving the water of sincerity

To care for just one bud of an orchid everyday

Let us clear our words

With the clean water of wisdom

That we've retrieved

From the spring of our prayer and silence.

Please let us engulf ourselves

In the fragance of humbleness

Deep inside our hearts

[Guest surferdude12]

There is something that's missing in the "statement" that they made. I don't know what but it's kind of bugging me off. I'm taking law in univ. and i'm kind of suspicious about this matter. The contract, the money, they're always dead tired, etc. Though, I kind of don't understand it yet, there's just something missing and not right. But I hope DBSK hyungs will stay strong because this is not that goin to be easy.

as what they say, Always Keep The Faith

[Guest miss_h]

with smtown concert coming up in 2 weeks time, i guess dbsk probably won't be performing then? it's gonna be weird seeing suju, shinee, snsd on stage without the dongbang boys. it kinds saddens me.

I have a feeling that they're gonna leave SM, though I'm pretty sure they probably won't disband. not sure whether homin would be able to follow jaechunsu since their contracts are supposedly different?

Am I the only one who suddenly I feel like smiling and applauding the boys? (all five of them...). They are smart, and their lawyer is one smart man too. BTW, by having HoMin not involved is benefit DBSK more than SM. You will see it in the end.

This situation put SM on the edge. This, Shanghai, and Dream Concert. According to the court, JaeChunSu can't participate in any of those concert before the matter was settle and they all come into agreement, mean: no DBSK. But the problem is, the ticket has been sold, with cassie took a biggest portion in all of it (in Shanghai, all of it). If SM cancel any of this concert, they will face a financial blow more severe than that stock dropping. Not to mention DBSK is the face of Seoul, the Dream concert was advertise in Japan by using DBSK name.

Ohh.. I can't imagine the headache that SM have right now. This is not as simple as their previous band. Again, in HOT and Shinhwa case, when they are facing this problem, they don't have any tied with SM and SM can just let them go.

DBSK have the FTC as their backup. Even with jury, their injunction was approved and they want a legal act to be taken now. As they say, as soon as SM show their cooperative and willing to negotiate, they will withdrawn their injuction.

--

BTW, I am sure many of you is as law illiterate as me (especially if it come in english term). So here is the definition of injunction in law term:

INJUNCTION - A court order that orders a party to do or refrain from doing a certain act (or acts) as opposed to a money judgment. For example: An injunction might be obtained to prevent a copyright infringer from reprinting copyrighted materials; in divorces there are frequently mutual restraining orders (a form of injunction) requiring both parties to leave another alone; A court order which restrains one of the parties to a suit in equity from doing or permitting others who are under his control to do an act which is unjust to the other party; If a party has threatened to remove marital property, or has threatened to kidnap, a court might prohibit the party from touching any marital property or removing the child from the county.

---

edit..

We have to expect SM to take the legal measurement. It's the obligation (like when a soccer player given the yellow card, no matter how wrong they are, they are obligate to show dissatisfaction to the revery). Don't act to shocked with it. In the end, it's the final result that matter.

About how the situation will be going on inside SM after the chaos: Don't worry. It might be awkward but DBSK don't have a problem with their crew. I doubt they even face this CEO (the one they have problem with) twice a year. Maybe a little changes in the management but I am sure their manager know this and have been informed about their situation.

As soon as they release a new album and produce more money to SM I am sure that all the people that sits on the chair will smile at them and invited them to dinner. sad, but it's true.

[Guest intan]

[Eng Sub] YTN News, 8/3/09

Ridiculously UNFAIR contract!

Always Keep the Faith~~HWAITING!!

[Guest DBSK_real]

Everyone...I am so sorry for make this vid so long. Hope this vid can help lighten your heart^^

This is, however, just the first one. (Many vids will follow.)

This contains just the first 100 messages. So please be patient for the rest.

Thanks for all messages, we highly appreciate everyone participation and suggestion. (We might have to use all the song you guys have recommended lol.)

I didn't answer every email so please forgive me if I didn't reply to your question or didn't confirm your message. I hope you understand. ^^

I do apologize if some of your name or message is hard to read in the vid. I cannot make it longer though.

Sorry if you have to pause for reading ^^"

Anyone wants to join, either help compiling the vid or do any graphic, please pm me or badstar!

The deadline is midnight Korean time!!!

'ALWAYS KEEP THE FAITH'

INTERNATIONAL FANS' VIDEO PROJECT

What: A Video Project done by the International Fans to give their support to TVXQ in this difficult time of their career.

What to do: Write your messages of encouragement to TVXQ, take a picture and send it to us.

Remember to put the line 'ALWAYS KEEP THE FAITH'.

Include a short message, your name and your country.

Sample:

(Haha. It's ugly! I'll make a new one)

It should be personalized, meaning it should be hand-written.

We encourage you to write your messages in SIMPLE English, Korean or Japanese so that the boys can understand it. If you want to write it in another language though, please provide an English Translation to the message.

There is no limit to the size of the picture.

Where to send: TVXQalways@gmail.com

Deadline: August 3, 2009; Midnight KST

NOTE TO EVERYONE PARTICIPATING IN THIS PROJECT:

Please send the pictures to the email we provided. Do not post it here. Also, please write in SIMPLE ENGLISH, KOREAN OR JAPANESE only. Why? SO THAT DBSK CAN UNDERSTAND IT^^

If you want to write it in another language though, please provide an English Translation to the message.

PLEASE SPREAD THE PROJECT!!

ALWAYS KEEP THE FAITH....BELIEVE IN FIVE

If I was alone, there'd be no way I could have come this far. I don't really have that confidence, but to be here together now, the five of us are already a family. - junsu

Even if everything failed, as long as the members are there, I feel that it's all right, and another chance will definitely come our way. From me...they are more than family - yoochun

They are more than family. They are a part of me. My other half, perhaps. - Yunho

We trust each other and are also each other's strength. Before I knew it, they are already a deep part of me. Their existence is as important as my life. - changmin

We are family, as well as friends. The word "comrade" also comes to my mind. We have to be together. If it's not five of us, it's not TVXQ. - Jaejoong

[Guest lyphta]

To those who think that HoMin already recontracted with SM, it was stated on DNBN that it is a rumor.

In case those who missed it because they dont want to backtrack, the whole thing is posted on page 1 of the thread, but I'll just show part of it here if it's okay. (if not please take this down)

NOTE: This was translated by Cassies themselves. They had 4 versions out: Korean, Japanese, Chinese & English.

This is their message to all TVXQ fans. <3

Reminder: Take what they say with a pinch of salt please. The point is, keep faith.

Source: [DNBN]

Shared by: iscreamshinki.net

Do not remove without full credits

All this is from the front page.

DNBN is pretty reliable in the info they've given us every single day about the boys, so I don't doubt them, though of course some may still find them "an unreliable source", so take it as you wish.

I'm just glad everything is out in the open now even though it's really saddening to see what they've been through.

I wish the boys the best with this issue! and I know for sure HoMin is backing JaeSuChun on this.

As everyone has stated before, HoMin have other obligations right now that they can't get out of, while JaeSuChun are free from those at the moment making this okay for them to do. Once HoMin is done with their obligations to the drama production crew, I'm sure they're taking action too (though probably in a different way as the lawyer has said) cause no one wants to be in a slave contract ever.

DBSK hwaiting! Cassiopeia hwaiting!! <3 Always keep the faith!

[dianaaarr]

[NEWS] 090803 SM Entertainment Assigns Lawyer to Deal with Dong Bang Shin Ki Dispute Case

Source: sookyeong @ Wordpress (K Bites)

Shared by: OneTVXQ.com { One World. One Red Ocean. One TVXQ! }

SM has revealed that they have assigned their own lawyer to deal with the case of 3 Dong Bang Shin Ki members’ lawsuit against them.

SM Entertainment’s group Dong Bang Shin Ki’s 3 member Hero JaeJoong, Xiah JunSu and Micky YooChun has went down to Seoul’s Central District Court on 31st July to apply for retractile of the exclusive belonging rights effects from their contract with SM Entertainment.

SM Entertainment said, “About this case, we have assigned our own lawyer to deal with it.”

Also, the 3 members have came out earlier today to reveal their stand on the case, “The reason of our discord with the company is the unjust contract conditions. We do not want disband.”

Meanwhile, a representative of one idol group said, “I’ve seen 1~2 of such cases of crises in idol groups. I hope that Dong Bang Shin Ki and the company will settle this dispute wisely and peacefully.” But another music industry expert said, “It is hard to narrow down the difference in views of the 2 sides in this case.”

Fans are hoping that good outcomes will result from this. Dong Bang Shin Ki fans are violently protesting to their disband.

[Guest StMichael]

This situation put SM on the edge. This, Shanghai, and Dream Concert. According to the court, JaeChunSu can't participate in any of those concert before the matter was settle and they all come into agreement, mean: no DBSK. But the problem is, the ticket has been sold, with cassie took a biggest portion in all of it (in Shanghai, all of it). If SM cancel any of this concert, they will face a financial blow more severe than that stock dropping. Not to mention DBSK is the face of Seoul, the Dream concert was advertise in Japan by using DBSK name.

If JaeChunSu can't participate in any of those concert, there is a possibility that Cassie & DBSK fans will return the tickets. You can imagine if that's happen. SME stock will have no value and severe in financial side. Facing the lawsuit from the brands that used DBSK as their spokeperson.

The only choice is SME should closed this problem ASAP.

I hope this case will be closed with win win solution for both parties.

[Guest jas_cuzzie]

has anyone ever thought about this..

DBSK needs SM, but SM probably doesn't need DBSK at all. (don't bash me, read what I have to say first)

with SME's connections, wealth, power and the rights to DBSK's songs, names, etc.. it would be hard for the boys to thrive in the industry if they leave SME (it's a harsh reality, i know, it kinds sucks.)

DBSK was created to replace Shinhwa who left SME. it's easy for SM to create another boygroup to replace dbsk in a few years to come, judging on the flocks of trainees they have.

it scares me that SM's getting serious about this and hiring their own lawyer to deal with jaechansu..

i mean..they used the crebeau affair to cover up the issues of the contract and them abusing their artistes. SME's vicious, it seems like once they've decided to go all out, things are not gonna look optimistic. I have a feeling SME's probably feeling betrayed and pissed off with the boys now.

I'm worried for our boys, did they expect things would come to this state when they decide to go to court with this matter?

I applaud jaechansu for the courage to bring this up, it really raised awareness not only about how SM treat its artistes, but also about other entertainment companies too. I'm pretty sure they've been secretly putting up with this for quite some time, and they're waiting for the right opportunity to strike back at SME. and by the right opportunity, it means that when they have garnered enough popularity and power in the kpop world, so that they can be on the same level as SM for negotiations to take place.

as fans, we should support dbsk whole heartedly. the reason why they have the courage to stand up to SM now, is because they know they have the strength of more then 800,000 ++ cassies to back them up.