Quantcast
Jump to content

Chickpea

Members
  • Content Count

    800
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Chickpea

  1. Greetings, All...

     

    Chickpea here.  Haven't been following the weekly blogs but I had to log in here to see how the drama ended...  until I just watched the raw...  now, I don't speak Korean but...

     

    They titled this drama wrong.  It should have been titled "Hye Ran of JBC" you know, like Helen of Troy only instead of the woman whose face launched a thousand ships, Hye Ran is the woman who causes every man who gets close to her to commit murder, mayhem and death and who leaves a trail of heartbreak and broken families in her wake in her pursuit for the facts and News Nine.  The result is the same for Hye Ran and Helen... only the magnitude is different but, then, Tae Wook is just a lawyer not a king.  And Helen won't have to deal with TW's mother so... I think she got the better deal...

     

    Really, though, as much as I am disappointed with the ending--it looks like Hye Ran never outgrew her school girl crush for MW and is actually in love with News Nine to the exclusion of all the men in her life--I thoroughly enjoyed the show.  The acting was magnificent and it was good to see JJH in a role so different from others I've seen him in.  And KNJ, as a gorgeous middle-aged professional woman, had me pumping my fist for girl power all throughout the drama.

     

    Other thoughts...  So, did MW come back in to HR's life to "protect" her from TW?  What is that office manager going to tell his wife now?  What's the moral of the story?  That HR ruins the life and family of every man who falls for her?  TW should have listened to his Momma.  I actually thought the culprit was going to the manager who killed when it looked like he lost his meal ticket and that EJ left the broach in KL's car to frame HR.  And, remind me again... who put the black box footage in KL's pocket?  I find it odd that, knowing what was on it, HR would let him take it out of her unit and put it in his pocket that fateful night.  And, sorry, but I just don't like EJ.  She strikes me as just too spiteful for a woman who could have prevented all of this by just keeping her husband on a short leash especially since she knew he was a womanizer.  Can't say the world isn't a better place without KL.  Where, oh where, can I find a man like MW?  Is the moral that upright people do bad things or that the only moral person here is HR... a point I would take issue with.  My favorite character in this drama is HR's boss at JBC...  everyone else, except maybe the young reporter with a crush on HR, seems to not know the difference between the pursuit of facts and the pursuit of truth.  My favorite line in the drama was TW's closing in which he pointed out how everyone was missing the point.. facts can be--and are, especially in the media these days--made up, manufactured and misinterpreted to achieve an end, especially by exceptionally driven and ambitious people.  Facts aren't truth, they're just facts.  Truth is something quieter, larger and more important.  When you focus on the noise--as reporters working with soundbites do--or when you become immersed in your own interpretation of "evidence" (i.e., your opinion of what the evidence means instead of what the evidence shows) as the cop does--then what gets lost is truth and we all pay the cost for that as society fractures.  

     

    I haven't watched the ending yet--don't have the heart--but I did read the spoilers above--thank you by the way from someone who doesn't yet have the heart to watch the ending.  In my mind, I will refuse to believe that TW commits suicide but, then, why else would MW say that once you've committed the first murder each following one is easy.  If TW thinks he killed KL (as opposed to an accident occurred resulting in KL's death), then killing himself is the next, easy logical step.  And if he is just trying to finish what he attempted that fateful night with KL in the car, then this man has been suffering depression for a very long time and it breaks my heart to think someone as good and gifted and decent as TW would be brought low by the likes of KL, EJ and, yes, even HR.

     

    Oh, well, I guess the morals of the drama are:   (1) Mother always knows best;  (2) Only the good die young (in KL's case, the "good for nothing") and (3) that song had it right:  "if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, don't make a pretty woman your wife..."

     

    Cheers.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • Like 13
    • Thanks 1
  2. Greetings, All,

    I'm really enjoying this drama.  I'm loving the language which is almost consistently poetic, such as the tidbit in @staygold's post above.  The premise is unique and I love how our Heroine keeps all these AWESOME men--a Goblin, a Reaper, a Chairman and a third-generation heir--on their toes and chasing their tails.  Daebak!   The almost-death scene at the end of Ep. 6 had me wiping tears from my eyes and that hasn't happened since all the beautiful female deaths in Moon Lovers--I guess this is the "equal time" drama, where our handsome hero (tries to) die over and over again so we get to witness these long and touching goodbyes.  I'm thinking two things:  first, that Kim Shin isn't dying because neither he nor she (who I think has an inkling what will happen when she removes the sword) really wants him to die and, second, that our third-generation heir isn't long for that credit card...   Oh, yeah, I'm also thinking our mystery halmoni may be God...

    Cheers until Ep. 7...

    • Like 11
  3. Greetings, All...

    Just watched Ep. 20 with subs... yes, I'm very, very late....  Just wanted to say to anyone who is still following this thread... SEQUEL!!!!  YAY!!!! (imagine 1,000 thumbs up!) :blush:

    An ending that is sad without being sad because you just know WS is going to find HS....  One more thing... I just loved the death scenes in this drama and the beautiful music with the notes soaring up to Heaven.  Bravo Writer-Director-PD-nim, bravo!

    Looking forward to meeting up with you all again... CP

    • Like 14
  4. On 10/11/2016 at 0:56 PM, lupita311 said:

    According to the history books So is the 4th king, I read it on a Korean history link a friend that is translating a history drama in Viki sent me, and he is the 4th, I know it is fantasy, but my thought is we read stuff that happened in history and we accept what the books say because we weren't there to see it first hand, but what if most of the stuff had a justification and not everything is black or white but with grey in between, what if the killing of an enemy is justified at the time the reason might be anything, but it wasn't out of ruthlessness, not that I excuse it, but it makes me think about it.  Yes, So became a puppet for his love of Hae Soo, but he was destine to be just one from the moment his mom cut his face, with a face like that, (I am sorry he is so gorgeous I don't see it), he couldn't be a king, he was kicked out and sent as a hostage to another family and he learned to be a killer and a yes, he called himself a dog and a wolf, yet even with all that he still was a king, how? because enter the girl from the future who knew everything happened and Ji Mong who is there to move the puppets along, I keep on wondering why was So and Jimong together at that place, it seems coincidental but I think it was fate that brought them together from the beginning,  all I can think is So is in this loop going back and forth, I don't know if it is called reincarnation since she couldn't be born in the past isn't she? I don't know much on the subject but it is more like she goes through betrayal and backstabbing everywhere she goes, she was at that river where she "died"  crying because her best friend and boyfriend cheated on her...  I think there is a way for her to change things and be happy. all she hast to do is she has to forgive and forget what happened and accept it in order to go on with her life, the thing she was most afraid was this king who kills her brothers, nothing in the past matter to her more than to protect them and by doing so she set a lot of things in motion no matter what she does she will never change the fate of those princes it was what it was and she couldn't change it, I don't think there is a HS in the future since she wakes up from a coma on the original, but it will be interesting to see if she would meddle in her life too.  This type of drama  reminds me of the matrix when the oracle told Neo don't worry about the vase and he says which one and by turning around he breaks it then she said I said don't worry about it, but what is going to make you think later is would you have broken it if I wouldn't have said  nothing about it.  To me it would've been better if So would've killed Yoo and you are right  his brother is a weasel and he wouldn't dare strike anyone without protection from someone else, but remember So kills Yoo, then Wook who was poisoning the king accuses him or uses her and he becomes the next king, his younger brothers with the exception of Baek ah support Wook and So is out of luck, then his sister would use her  new role as the sister of the king to kill or threaten Soo and marry So which is what she wants all along because she is so ambitious that she knows that out of all the brothers the only one who could be his father successor is So who is just as fierce and who understands politics better than them, it is innate and no cut in his face could stop him from being a ruler.

    Greetings, Friend,

    Thank you for this brilliant post.  I can see you are doing your homework with regard to the historical WS.  Brava.

    The point I was trying to make in my post was that, so far, the only "creative license to history" that I see is HS traveling back 1,000 years and becoming the reason for WS killing his brothers.  And what's the point of that...

    People don't commit murder, regicide or fratricide for love; they commit it for power.  If the writer was going to make WS the killer of his brothers to acquire the throne, why try to justify his actions with the noble intent of protecting the woman he loves.  Realistically, no HS traveled back to Goryeo from the 21st Century and yet the historical WS actually did kill his brothers to ascend to the throne, and then he took out their families, is this not correct.  

    My point was, if the author was going to deviate from history anyway, he or she should have turned the historical WS into a mythological character and given the story a different ending, like the King Arthur stories, or if the author was going to try to stick to the history, then he or she should not have tried to turn this into a love story with a woman who traveled back from the future and who then becomes the reason for WS's actions.

    If the historic WS was a blood-thirsty, power-mad maniac (a "monster" in HS's words), then write the story that way and make the woman from the future fall in love with a brother destined for death, like Wook, for instance, and then after WS kills off her lover, have her fall back down the rabbit-hole to the 21st Century to meet and fall in love with his modern-day reincarnation.

    Beyond the history, however, there are other parts of a drama--the audience, the characters and the story itself.  For any story, movie or drama to work, it has to first make sense.  The actions have to follow logically and make sense in contet and the characters must be believable.  Like I said, the actions of WS at the end of Ep. 15 don't make sense when taken together with everything else we've seen about him through the previous 14 episodes.  The WS of 14 episodes refused to be controlled by anyone.  He was a survivor.  He would rather die than submit.  This character, when confronted with the scene of Yoo alive and well and standing over the dead body of the CP would have cut him down and the very idea that a counselor could stop the carnage and give the advantage to the obvious-murderer of the CP is, on its face, unrealistic.  If the WS of this drama is the WS of history, he would have let Weasel Brother kill HS.  Even the WS of this drama was, at one point, willing to kill HS himself, to find the plotters against the CP.  We're being asked to see HS as the "kryptonite" to the WS "superman" as if love has somehow weakened and emasculated our Hero.  Perhaps we're supposed to see WS's actions as noble but, sorry, it doesn't work in contet, at least it didn't work at the end of Ep. 15 and I don't see how it will work going forward.  

    If we're to accept the premise of this story, a 21st century woman is the catalyst for one of Korea's greatest mass murderers.  Not his lust for power, not his desire for revenge, not his attempt to follow the wishes of his father and obtain justice for the murder of the CP.  I would have more respect for the WS who carries out these murders to end the machinations of the families and the manipulations of the princes than I presently do for the WS who abandons all of this to protect a woman he could have easily protected by just pushing that sword through Yoo's body.

    Great discussing this with you, tho...  CP

     

    • Like 15
  5. 4 minutes ago, krysyuy said:

    Hi all - I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a bit, but I finally had to join because this drama has taken over my life, lol.

    Anyways, not sure if this was discussed already - regarding Wook's scene when he repeats Soo's warning to him and then tells Yeon Hwa combined with Yeon Hwa's warning to Soo later on at Damiwon... (Spoiler cut just to be safe.)

      Reveal hidden contents

    Does anyone else think that Yeon Hwa will be the one to tell Soo that it was her warning about So that set off Wook? I'm basing this off reading the cdrama wiki section, lol. I'm sure Yeon Hwa will have perfect timing and this will happen after Soo's miscarriage, setting off the similar events from the cdrama.

     

    Also, I cannot with Jung. I will not be surprised in the slightest if his "I will kill him" line in the preview is in regards to So despite Yo being the one with the bow and arrows. I'm really anxious about how the Eun dying scene will play out, ugh.

    Greetings and welcome!  I can certainly understand the "drama has taken over my life" sentiment.  Haven't seen Ep. 15 yet, waiting for the subtitles so I don't have to get all angsty for nothing but I wouldn't be surprised if  YH is behind the mercury poisoning thing also...  

    • Like 5
  6. 5 hours ago, chi13lou said:

    Based on actual history, Yo is the king after Mu.

    ...and @dears......Good Morning...  Thank you.  I stand corrected on the history.  All I know about the history is what I read on this thread and what I saw on Wikipedia when I looked up Wang So.  I saw no reference to Yoo being King after Moo, only the connection between Moo and So, marriage with the daughter.  So, the history is correct BECAUSE Hae Soo traveled back a thousand years....  This means HS travels back to Goryeo to find out SHE is the impetus for one of Korean history's great mass murdering Kings.  I think she called him a "monster".

    I would have preferred both WS and HS fall down that rabbit hole to the 21st Century ...

    I don't hate HS... I hate the turn this story is taking.  Its the writer who is making HS the cause for WS's actions.  Sometimes you just can't justify the unjustifiable.  If the writer was looking for a way to ecuse WS's actions in history and was going to take "creative license" with that history, he or she should have just had them fall down that rabbit hole and live happily ever after turning the historical King into a fictional character, after all, this is a drama not a documentary.  The way it looks now is, we're to "understand" this blood-thirsty, fratricidal murderer as a pathetic, love-struck puppet of Bro' Yo...  And this characteriation doesn't fit with the WS we've seen throughout the rest of the drama.  Do you see what I mean about when an otherwise great drama begins to turn to nonsense...

     

  7. 5 hours ago, lupita311 said:

    From the last three episodes we can see that we could never judge what the history books tell us, at least Hae Soo who was so afraid of the 4th Prince and tried to warn the others about him, she couldn't imagine the turn of events which lead to So turning against them, it is true So will end up killing his brothers, but there is a reason to it, first they plotted against their dad and then they killed one of the best kings so far, he had empathy, loyalty, he cared for his family and he wanted to do a good job and they killed him in a horrible way with Mercury, it was killing his brain no wonder he was seeing things and going crazy, that stuff is no joke.  Backstabbers stabbing each other it is horrible, even her only friend who thank her for making her a court lady and even gave her a birthday a gift was working against her, I for one blame the king, he had too many heirs to the throne and he didn't even raise them to be good people, then he died without a word of wisdom for them, now for each one of them to get a turn on that seat they will have to eliminate each other till there is only one left.  Even though the history books said he was cruel,I don't blame So for killing them, they were worst than him, they will eliminate the young ones first and then we know they will plot how to eliminate each other even though they are "allies" so So has to eliminate the older ones and please get rid of the queen and the sister too.  Even though according to history he marries his sister I bet it is another way to keep Soo alive.  At least in this mix of history and fantasy we can go back and see that some stuff some people did was a little justified.

    Greetings... thinking about Ep 14 in my sleep (egads!)...  Yes, but, as the disclaimer at the beginning of the drama says, the drama takes a creative license to history.  As things are working out, the only "creative license" is that a woman from the future is the reason So kills his brothers.  Personally, I would have preferred a So who killed his brothers for, as you correctly state above, plotting against the King and Crown Prince with Eun dying in the cross-fighting.  At least this would retain for our hero his dignity.  The scenario that appears to be developing--and I could be wrong--makes So a love-struck fool who allows himself to be Yoo's "killing canine" and for those in this thread who object to the canine references with regard to So, those come directly from the dialogue and the writer, we're not making it up.  I understand the writer appears to be trying to make the case for So's eventual killing of not only his brothers but their etended families and he or she wants to make it appear that So was manipulated by his love for HS and his hand was forced to protect her.  Only this doesn't make sense.  Had not JiMong stopped So, he would have cut down Yoo at the end of Ep. 14 and Weasel would have run away, he wouldn't dare try to strike at HS without Yoo's protection.  Here's the other thing.  Both JiMong and  HS know the future.  Here I go back to Taejo's warning to HS to do nothing and allow history to take its course.  And HS tries to do this.  But it seems her very presence in the past is enough to change it.  Or is it.  What about the Goryeo-HS, the one who is now taking our HS's place in the 21st Century.  Had not the eclipse transported our 21st Century darling to Goryeo, is it not possible that So would have fallen for Soo anyway.  But JiMong and HS know the future, remember, so they know that the king after Moo will be So.  History is changed not because of their actions but because of their in-actions, or rather, because JiMong stops So from killing Yoo.

    At present, we now have a situation where the actual history has been changed because Yoo is now king after Moo and before So. This attempt to keep to the history has actually resulted in a situation where the writer has given us an alternative history where someone who never was King becomes King.

    Now, I think I read somewhere this is one of the first dramas made with Hollywood investors and that, obviously, is because of the popularity of the genre.  I think the beauty of the first half of this drama had something to do with that fact that the drama was written to appeal to a broader-than-Korean audience so it doesn't really matter what the Korean rating numbers are.  But to hold the entire story together for the international audience, the pieces have to fit together in the story.  Beauty, romance, intrigue are all fine and good but if the package doesn't make sense, your international audiences are going to be frustrated and you may lose that viewership.  For instance, my mother sent me my first drama, Winter Sonata, while I was living in Rome.  I shared it with my colleagues.  Everyone loved it.  Until the scene where Yujin leaves the ticket to New York on the airport bench and flies off to Paris to study advanced Interior design.  At that scene, everyone lost it.  The thinking was, the love of your life is facing death or blindness and rather than go to him, you go off to study wallpaper and upholstery...  For all of us, the entire drama was nonsense just because of that one scene.  Now, perhaps it makes sense to Asians, and something gets lost in the translation but a drama designed to appeal to broader-than-Korean audiences should take those sensibilities into consideration.

    Well, that's my two cents in the middle of the night... Now back to bed... 

    • Like 5
  8. Greetings all from a Chickpea with a heavy heart...  Here's the problem with the end of Ep. 14... JiMong!!!!!  He should have left Moo in the bath and let So cut down Yo and that other weasle brother then we wouldn't have this RIDICULOUS ending.  If I read the subtitles on the preview correctly, HS becomes the REASON So kills all his brothers... he is Yo's "wolf"...  RIDICULOUS.  I guess So will also end up marrying YH to "save" her because Yo dictates it.  This makes no sense.  If JiMong didn't step in, So would have cut down Yo and the Weasle (sounds like a Goryeo K-pop band) and HS would have been safe.  Moo was gone and nothing would bring him back.  So, my crystal ball says Weasle was slipping mercury into those bath-bags that CR was then floating in the King's bath.  Ergo, CR will die when this comes to light.  So will play the role of Yo's "canine" slaughtering anyone he's told to until the end of Ep. 15 when HS's life will be endangered anyway and he will have to do the necessary and take out Yo.  Why do Eun and Wife have to die... my guess is because it happens in history but also because she is the General's daughter and the General led the rebellion against Yo.  Its called payback.  This sets up for the drama to kind-of follow the history, I guess, and why when So eventually becomes King, there is so much blood-letting among the etended families.  

    It drives me nuts when this happens in dramas.  Its like the writers are on a roll, then they need a transition and they come up with something that fits the story like a square peg in  a round hole but it gets them where they want to be.  Does anyone in his or her right mind think that in the middle of a fight, when a traitor thought dead would reappear, with the dead King in plain sight, that a Counselor would call a halt to the fighting to grieve over a dead regent and throw the battle to the bad guys... In what universe does this make sense....  I think we're seeing writer fatigue.  At this rate I'm thinking HS is just going to disappear from Goryeo and those SO/HS shippers are never going to see the ending they hope for.  Ah, well, who was it who said romance is only romance as long as there are forces keeping the couple apart...

    :cry:

    • Like 11
  9. 14 hours ago, Hanazumi said:

    Yeah or maybe Queen Hwangbo also intentionally made the poison and wanted to use it to frame Queen Yoo but it backfired on her not knowing that Queen Yoo tricked Queen Hwangbo to do so. We never know. This is something that I love the drama had covered. It'll be so much interesting to see Queen Yoo, Lady Oh and Queen Hwangbo go at each other. King Taejo, how did you make all these women love you?

    Good Morning!  

    Agree... but, just thinkin again because this drama is almost always on my mind...  Taejo investigated the miscarriage-inducing-tea incident and determined the culprit was QH which is why she was kicked out.  Assuming Taejo is competent--especially with JiMong at his side--then, it appears QH is the culprit despite what YH says or what QH claims.  Also, Lady Oh's child would have been more of a threat to QH's children than to QY's.  Just like QY went nuts when Taejo wanted to take a second wife, .maybe QH went nuts when the love of Taejo's life was found to be pregnant, especially if she felt unloved by him.  That green-eyed monster Jealousy....

    Ah, well, I guess we'll never know.  Its fun speculating, though....

    Happy Sunday....

    • Like 10
  10. @UnniSarah, @Hanazumi and others I may have missed...  Greetings!  Regarding the Evil Queens of the East...  do you get the feeling that something is missing, like some part of the backstory on the queens was edited out and the writer tried to make up for it by writing it in the dialogue but there is still a feeling that you're not privy to something... kind of like that irritating feeling you get while standing in a store and forgetting what you came to buy...

    Through most of the drama it was apparent that Queen Yoo was evil but Queen Hwang appeared to be meek, considerate and loving, at least it appeared that way with WW's wife.  The first time she shows any hint of evil is when she stops WW from going to HS while she's petitioning the King for Lady Oh's life when she says she must protect her child's life.  That indicates she was aware that YH was behind the attempted poisoning of the CP and she is willing to let Lady Oh die in her daughter's place.  I could be mistaken here and she could be referring to the King's anger at whomever took HS's side so she's worried about WW, not YH, but that's not the feeling I get from the scene.  I think she was aware of YH's actions and, since she apparently did nothing to stop her, QH is as guilty of attempted regicide as was YH.  I know we're led to believe it was QY who sent Lady Oh the miscarriage-inducing tea and blamed it on QH, but what if it actually was QH who sent the tea and who then claimed innocence to throw the blame for her actions on to QY.  This would essentially be the same thing  as YH having HS deliver the poisoned tea and then pretending to drink it so as to throw suspicion off of her.  Like daughter, like mother.  After So tells JiMong to gather the General and his army, it is QH who has her wits about her and tells QY they need to come up with a plan to save their sons' lives.  My point is, and maybe I'm over-thinking it, QY is vain and shallow but QH is deceptive and calculating.  This side of WW is now coming out.  When he says, he must not be "seen" as acquiring the throne through ignoble means and that the traitor who betrays a traitor is a hero, he shows that he, too, is deceptive and calculating.  Like son, like mother.  This is why I say QH and her kids are more of a threat to the CP than QY and WY ever were.

    Just thinkin...

    WHAT!!!  Episode 14 may be pre-empted for a  baseball game!!!  :angry:

     

    • Like 8
  11. Greetings, Chingu...

    Just watched Ep. 13 again simply because there's nothing else on television on the internet worth watching...  Some thoughts and pardon me if I repeat something that has already been said...  I'm way, way behind...:anguished:

    Just a couple of random thoughts...  the preview for Ep. 14 seems to show WS marrying the CP's daughter, at least that's what the translation seems to say.  That would hold true to the history, if I'm not mistaken.  A child bride and in this scenario she will be his first wife, not his second.  Along these lines, it would put WS in line to inherit the throne after the CP.  Then I'm also thinking that the reason Taejo permitted WS to be sent away to the Krazy Kangs was because he knew he had only two sons who were born under a "kingly constellation" and he "chose" the CP so he had to remove WS and have him raised not-as-a-royal so as to insure So was no threat to the CP since he was actually the only threat to the CP.  On some level it seems the CP and So understood this which is why So defends the CP and why the CP puts him in line to inherit the keys to the Kingdom...

    I'm thinking about So saying BaekAh was the only brother HS couldn't be in infatuation with since he liked Baekdo and didn't want to have to kill him.  It is fitting, then, that its BaekAh who So goes to for help in bringing back the CP...  And I hope he never has to kill him...  

    I'm sad to see the change in WW, how he went from disinterested jerk to a nice guy in love to a calculating, scheming son of a female dog... but then YH is just like him so maybe its in the genes which means Queen Hwang was always more of a threat than Queen Yoo...

    Well, that's it until Monday... Ciao, ciao...

    • Like 16
  12. 2 hours ago, KdramaSwimmer said:

    King Taejo + So Yeon - I liked the way King called her name before dying to prove the point that OSG told Eveil Queen that It'd be enough if just one persons remembers her name and that happened here.

    Greetings... had to comment on this... and also, it proves Lady Oh's statement to Evil Queen Yoo that she (Yoo) has never won over Lady Oh.  His dying thoughts and words were of and for Lady Oh.  Ouch!

    1 hour ago, freckledbelle said:

    It doesn't matter to me now whether or not they'll have a happy ending. What matters most is that they loved each other at some point in their lives.

    Hello... this is very wise and insightful.  Your point, whether or not you know it, is that WS is influenced by this 21st century woman.  Her modern values, like equality and the intrinsic value of every human person, appeal to and will eventually affect WS as regent.  I think this was the point Taejo was trying to make in his meeting with her, he thought she had knowledge of the future and believed she would use this to influence the princes and the future and he warns her not to do so.  

    This is why WS may not end up like his father.. because the Taejo of this drama is completely a man of his times and circumstances whereas WS is not.  Nothing about WS's upbringing, education, relationship with his family or relationship with HS can be called typical of his time and circumstances (at least for the purposes of this drama).

    That's it for now...  Ciao, ciao...

     

     

     

    • Like 20
  13. Good Morning, Chingu...

    Finally watched Eps. 12 & 13 last night...  only comment on those is... YH certainly thinks highly of herself.  She's going to make WW king, she's going to make WS king, she's going to be WY's Queen...

    Regarding the speculation above about WS and YH's children... I mentioned before history is written by the scribes writing for the regent who determines what gets written for posterity.  If the regent claims all his issue are from his Queen then that is what gets written regardless of the actual circumstances of the birth so, unless there is empiricle evidence to the contrary (i.e., eye-witness confirmation), we have no way of knowing who the actual mother of WS's children were.  Just what the scribes were told to write.

    More interesting to me is the historical WS upon which the character is based.  So far I've seen two dramas about him, Shine or Go Cray and Scarlet Heart.  In each, he is portrayed as someone who was disqualified for the throne but who ended up as regent.  In both he is a kind of silent hero.  He's definitely someone worthy of further study...

    My guess at the ending to this drama...  HS makes her way back to the 21st century and becomes a sort-of historical scholar and rewrites the history books to present WS as someone who overcame tremendous obstacles to become King rather than a monster who killed all his brothers...

    Cheers...

    • Like 15
  14. Hello again, Chingu...

    Consider all your posts "liked"...  I'm way behind but of what I've read there are lots of creative people in this forum with their thinking caps on...  Again, pardon me if some one else already said this but...

    I've been thinking about the preview for episode 12...  the murder or attempted murder of the King...  just speculating here but, HS's memory of her Korean history is that WS kills all his brothers to ascend to the throne and she thinks he's some sort of monster-in-the-making because of this.  But this doesn't fit with WS's character.  What does fit with his character is, as the King wanted him to be the CP's "shield", if the King dies or is incapacitated, his other brothers and their puppet-masters go after the CP and WS protects the CP and the dead King's wishes.  Of course, this will result in the deaths of all his brothers but not because of WS's lust for the throne but because of their own ambitions and of those behind them.  This would also make the case for WS also wiping out the manipulating families... because had not the power-hungry families pushed and manipulated the respective princes, he would not have had to kill his brothers to defend the CP and carry out the King's wishes...

    Just thinking...

    • Like 16
  15. Been away and am way, way behind but I just have to say this...  ...this drama really does death scenes well...

    Ah, the burden of being king, part military general, part. politician, part diplomat, full-time strategist.  I haven't read all the postings so pardon me if I step on someone else's post..  I've been thinking about the Crown Prince.  I must say, of all Taejo's sons, he really is the only one who appears to have all the qualities to be a future king.  He isn't as hard as Taejo .but he seems thoughtful, compassionate, diplomatic, we've seen he's gone out on military missions so. there's no lack of courage there.  All the other sons are either power hungry, greedy, scheming, immature and lazy such as when Wang Wook tells his mother he just wants to live a comfortable life.  Well, heck, someone's got to make that comfort possible..

    It seemed to me Lady Oh was ill, all the eating of bland poridge, etc.,  She claimed it was so she could better taste tea but I think she may have had stomach cancer and while I haven't watched Ep. 11 with subs, I'm thinking the conversation with Soo and the King went something like, I'm dying anyway so let me take responsibility for the attempted poisoning of the Crown Prince...  Hopefully, Soo will get kicked out of the palace at the same time So also has to leave to return to Shinju and they both can find their way into that pool and back to the 21st Century.

    Oh, another thing.  I wondered why So waited so long before coming out to stand beside HS.  Methinks he knew of her infatuation with WW and so waited until his brother showed his true colors before stepping up to show her who the real man was...

    • Like 13
  16. Greetings, All,

    I've been following this thread for a few days and have enjoyed your insights.  I may have missed it but has anyone commented yet on the disconnect in the preview for Ep. 6 where in the HDF version I watched raw this morning, its WS who spirits HS away and in the DF version I just watched with subs, its WW who spirits HS away.  I guess we'll have to wait for tomorrow to see who really rescues our adorable little heroine (BTW I HATED how she looked all Goryeo-glammed up; she looked like a mini-version of Wicked Witch Yoo) but I'll put my hopes on WS since "marrying HS off" is the equivalent of "adopting WS out" and he knows first-hand how miserable that was and he also doesn't mind being the "rouge prince" and if Wicked Witch Yoo is behind the marriage, well, all the better for ticking her off...

    And where did that pathetic piece of pitiful named YH come from...  She's more like Wicked Witch Yoo than she is like her supposedly biological mother and brother and the DF preview makes it seem like she's behind the "marriage" of HS.  I guess she wasn't paying attention when her mother pointed out that the only reason they were able to walk the streets of Goryeo or whatever they call that city in the drama is because of HS's family...  I guess she missed out on the lesson about never, ever returning evil for good...  That's okay, if WS didn't despise her before, he'll despise her now...

    And the final scenes of today's drama were probably the most beautiful I think I've ever seen in a drama, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, whatever... Spectacular scenery, music, costumes, dialogue, acting and story line.  Gorgeous, respectful, dignified death scene fitting for Lady Hae's character.   In lots of ways this drama is on a completely different level from the traditional k-drama trope.

    I did some Wiki-reading about WS, also because he was a character in another drama I watched, Shine or Go Crazy.  The article I read said WS marries YH but lists a second wife, his niece, the daughter of King Haejong.  I'm wondering if this "Haejong" is related to our Hae So and Lady Hae.  Anybody got any ideas.  I note the disclaimer before the drama about "creative license" being taken with the history.  This would make me happy:  WS marries HS for love; Taejo forces WS to marry YH for political reasons and WS ignores her until Taejo dies, then locks her up in a nunnery afterward...  Where's that devil emoggi.....

    • Like 18
  17. 13 hours ago, homura said:

    Frankly speaking, in my eyes, SFD is a bloody love-hate bromance between Yi Bang-Won and Jung Do-Jeon. (LOL)

    @homura - As usual, brilliant insight!  This is the primary relationship in the drama.  Every other relationship is subordinated to this relationship...  LBW's relationship with his father is in support of JDJ's cause; LBW's relationship with BY is in support of JDJ's cause (by her choice); LBW's relationship with his wife is in support of JDJ's cause; the relationship between YH and LBJ is that both are supporters of JDJ's cause and every other character in the drama, Moo Hyul, etc., is brought into the drama in support of one of the characters supporting JDJ's cause.

    Ultimately I think we will see the evil I spoke about in my last post work itself out in this relationship as well and then we will see the beginning of the end of Joseon...

     

    • Like 7
  18. On 12/2/2015, 5:38:15, homura said:

    Hong In-Bang asserted that a human being can throw a child into a well for his own benefit. Human nature is so inclined towards selfishness that it is inevitable for human societies to fall into chaos. Goryeo is hopeless. If he can’t change the chaos, he had no choice but to be the part of the chaos.

    Greetings, All,

    @homura - Many thanks for your brilliant work fact checking, filling in the historical background and providing insight into the philosophical underpinnings of the politics in the drama.  Regarding the above quote, doesn't this mirror GTM's dying ehortation that if he didn't take advantage of the poor and helpless who should he have taken advantage of... the rich and powerful?  And his (correct) assessment of fallen human nature that from the beginning (a thousand years ago) and to the end (a thousand years from now) the nature of human beings is to lean toward selfishness for the purpose of self-preservation and elevation in the community (society).  You can see why these two were friends and relatives...  Regarding Samsa, I can see how this can function as a system of checks and balances of the political class and this responds to HIB, but what's not addressed is the relationship between the political class and the majority non-noble, non-political, non-scholarly class which is what GTM's statement is referring to...but then we'd be talking about something more akin to a social contract...  Its too bad JDJ didn't hear GTM's last words in addition to HIB's last words, he may have devised a different system...  and we'd have a different drama...

    The "worm in the heart"... what do you think this refers to?  Blind ambition, hunger for power, greed...?  Ah, I just read JDJ's words again, we have a saying here that the person who steps on other people to get to the top with the intention of then doing great things when he gets to the top, will be a person at the top who steps on people...  In other words, does the end justify the means or does the means justify the ends...  Can a person who will plot political intrigue, hold suspicions, falsely accuse and murder to create a "just society" be a "just" ruler?  Can a society be "just" if its foundation is based on all the foregoing...  I think back to that good/just speech LBW had with HIB, LBW is willing to forego "good" to be "just" but, can you separate goodness and justice, or are you (or that worm in your heart) blinding yourself to the reality that one cannot be both evil and just or good and unjust... the moment you step on the path of evil, injustice naturally follows... it may take a while for it to materialize, but eventually materialize it will...   So what does this mean?  That the end of every great society is implanted at its birth... 

    I can't find the cite now but there was some talk about the "secret" that could get BY's brother killed... What I took from this is that the now LBJ and perhaps little sister BY are the illegitimate children of some royal and a maid and I am speculating here but I foresee a role for GTM's twin brother in this drama as, perhaps, protector, life-long love of the deceased (or missing) mother or even perhaps foster father of LBJ and biological father of BY...  That's what I'm thinking...

    What I'm hoping is that LBJ and YH get over their tragic past, together take out all the baddies who raped her and find a place in each other's heart again...  And since they're both fictional chacaters, it can happen... writer-nim????

    Finally, I'm gonna miss that blue eye shadow...

     

     

     

    • Like 9
  19. @eunsuhae - " BW doesn't seem to perceive it as a "murder". He was only executing an act of justice, turning a wrong into a right..."  

    Greetings, my friend, I am surprised there isn't much talk here about the "biggest secret" YBW shared with his new wife...  her response is probably what I would have epected if it says there "I killed three scholar bullies when I was 12..."  I'm still not willing to go there.  I have to rewatch and think more about the good/justice speech.  It was written in there for a reason and it is significant to the plot and I don't think it was just there as a way for YBW to justify murder because if he is guilty of three murders, then he knows, based on his reasoning, that justice demands of him his death three times, so, if his goal is to be a just man, then he needs to commit suicide three times.  I don't know Korean history but, from my perspective, the writers so far are making YBW out to be an idealistic, brash young man in whom you can see emerging courage, wisdom and leadership.  That's why the mass-murder thing is a disconnect for me.  It doesn't fit with the character the writers have been developing, the problem is with the character development not with whether YBW could use a sword or the even more unlikely scenario of him taking out three bullies bigger than him in one night without so much as a scratch..

    @chasen8888 - "SFD is not a romantic saguek it’s a combination of historical fact & fiction as to the birth of a new nation and the lives of the people who contributed to its life primarily from BW’s perspective which is being told to us in a very interesting manner."

    Very well, said...

    • Like 5
  20. @zenya22 and others:  Mea culpa.  After re-watching the beginning of Episode 4, it does appear/appear as you say that the young YBW is behind the murders of the three scholars.  I say appears because I'm not yet ready to concede that a scrawny tween can take on and kill three older, burlier bullies which is what that scenario would suggest.  There was no previous indication that YBW had military or training using a sword, in fact, his bodyguard was there for a reason, he wasn't able to sufficiently protect himself in the mind of his father.  He was being raised to do something in the civilian world, i.e., scholar or civil servant, it seems to me, not in the military realm, that seems to have been his father's intention for his older brothers.  Anyway, until that is cleared up by the writers, we will just have to wait and see...

    @eunsuhae - Yes, please see above.  It is implied which is why I don't accept it as fact.  How YBW could change so drastically from the boy who cowered before those three bullies to actually somehow overcoming them in a sword battle is beyond me.  Also, if he is a serial murderer at that young age, he would not be the kind of whimpy young man we see in later episodes.  I accept as King Taejong does all kinds of evil but to go from serial murderer at what appears to be 12 or 13 to the kind of idealistic romantic lover we see in Episodes 13 and 14 (haven't watched 15 and 16 yet), doesn't make sense.  Hopefully the writers will eventually clear this up with a flashback in which we see someone else does the murders (Minister Lee?) and YBW is a witness even if he talks tough and seemingly takes responsibility before HIB.  Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving!

     

    • Like 4
  21. @chickpea the reason you gave are the reasons that those who thinks he was real give

    but there is a growing group of academics that after analyzing platos writing and style have come to a decision that most likely he didnt exist 

    and was a ruse of the time  - the assumption that socrates wanted to be part of the ppl and therefor didnt want to write his thoughts and philosophy can go also against him since it was so unusual

    the debate is documented so it just depend on what you lean towards

    i think that to point such a thing this day - im talking about 10 years back - must mean there is some doubt so unless it proven without a doubt im leaning towards plato and nor socrates  - which to me seem more likely 

    but i do agree that no matter who said it the meaning is the same - which is whats important 

    @nevill - Thanks for this my wisdom-loving friend...  I haven't done any studies in the field for 12 years now.  I love Plato...

    @USAFarmGirl - Regarding who killed the scholars, I'll have to go back and rewatch Episode 4.  I am trying to remember but I think I thought BW had arrived at the scene of the murders after they had taken place.  I know he makes the good/just speech to HIB at the beginning of Ep. 4  but I thought he was just sparing with a man he knows to be evil...  Thank you.

     

     

    • Like 5
  22. @nevill - Re the historical Socrates, he is mentioned by other historians of the time and in historical documents and both Plato and Aristotle claim to have been his disciples, so...  he must have been a real person and not a legend...

    @zenya22 and others - Please rewatch Episode 3 at 46.17 and following, especially 47.05.  HIB and GTM are behind the murders of the three scholars, not the young BW.  At 46.17 GTM uses the threat of punishing Baek Yoon's son for the murder of the scholars to get him to sign over what appears to be half of his lands after Minister Lee tells him to leave BY alone and he whines he has no land.  At 47.05, after GTM tells HIB that people like BY need to have their sons accused of murder before they will sign papers, HIB responds that it is now time for GTM to keep his promise after which GTM asks HIB if he murdered the scholars himself to which HIB responds that he hired an assassin.  So, just to clear up, YBW does not/not murder the three scholars either by an assassin or his own hand.

     

    • Like 4
×
×
  • Create New...