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@UnniSarah, @Hanazumi and others I may have missed...  Greetings!  Regarding the Evil Queens of the East...  do you get the feeling that something is missing, like some part of the backstory on the queens was edited out and the writer tried to make up for it by writing it in the dialogue but there is still a feeling that you're not privy to something... kind of like that irritating feeling you get while standing in a store and forgetting what you came to buy...

Through most of the drama it was apparent that Queen Yoo was evil but Queen Hwang appeared to be meek, considerate and loving, at least it appeared that way with WW's wife.  The first time she shows any hint of evil is when she stops WW from going to HS while she's petitioning the King for Lady Oh's life when she says she must protect her child's life.  That indicates she was aware that YH was behind the attempted poisoning of the CP and she is willing to let Lady Oh die in her daughter's place.  I could be mistaken here and she could be referring to the King's anger at whomever took HS's side so she's worried about WW, not YH, but that's not the feeling I get from the scene.  I think she was aware of YH's actions and, since she apparently did nothing to stop her, QH is as guilty of attempted regicide as was YH.  I know we're led to believe it was QY who sent Lady Oh the miscarriage-inducing tea and blamed it on QH, but what if it actually was QH who sent the tea and who then claimed innocence to throw the blame for her actions on to QY.  This would essentially be the same thing  as YH having HS deliver the poisoned tea and then pretending to drink it so as to throw suspicion off of her.  Like daughter, like mother.  After So tells JiMong to gather the General and his army, it is QH who has her wits about her and tells QY they need to come up with a plan to save their sons' lives.  My point is, and maybe I'm over-thinking it, QY is vain and shallow but QH is deceptive and calculating.  This side of WW is now coming out.  When he says, he must not be "seen" as acquiring the throne through ignoble means and that the traitor who betrays a traitor is a hero, he shows that he, too, is deceptive and calculating.  Like son, like mother.  This is why I say QH and her kids are more of a threat to the CP than QY and WY ever were.

Just thinkin...

WHAT!!!  Episode 14 may be pre-empted for a  baseball game!!!  

 

[[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner]

Greetings, Chingu...

Just watched Ep. 13 again simply because there's nothing else on television on the internet worth watching...  Some thoughts and pardon me if I repeat something that has already been said...  I'm way, way behind...

Just a couple of random thoughts...  the preview for Ep. 14 seems to show WS marrying the CP's daughter, at least that's what the translation seems to say.  That would hold true to the history, if I'm not mistaken.  A child bride and in this scenario she will be his first wife, not his second.  Along these lines, it would put WS in line to inherit the throne after the CP.  Then I'm also thinking that the reason Taejo permitted WS to be sent away to the Krazy Kangs was because he knew he had only two sons who were born under a "kingly constellation" and he "chose" the CP so he had to remove WS and have him raised not-as-a-royal so as to insure So was no threat to the CP since he was actually the only threat to the CP.  On some level it seems the CP and So understood this which is why So defends the CP and why the CP puts him in line to inherit the keys to the Kingdom...

I'm thinking about So saying BaekAh was the only brother HS couldn't be in infatuation with since he liked Baekdo and didn't want to have to kill him.  It is fitting, then, that its BaekAh who So goes to for help in bringing back the CP...  And I hope he never has to kill him...  

I'm sad to see the change in WW, how he went from disinterested jerk to a nice guy in love to a calculating, scheming son of a female dog... but then YH is just like him so maybe its in the genes which means Queen Hwang was always more of a threat than Queen Yoo...

Well, that's it until Monday... Ciao, ciao...

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2 hours ago, KdramaSwimmer said:

King Taejo + So Yeon - I liked the way King called her name before dying to prove the point that OSG told Eveil Queen that It'd be enough if just one persons remembers her name and that happened here.

Greetings... had to comment on this... and also, it proves Lady Oh's statement to Evil Queen Yoo that she (Yoo) has never won over Lady Oh.  His dying thoughts and words were of and for Lady Oh.  Ouch!

1 hour ago, freckledbelle said:

It doesn't matter to me now whether or not they'll have a happy ending. What matters most is that they loved each other at some point in their lives.

Hello... this is very wise and insightful.  Your point, whether or not you know it, is that WS is influenced by this 21st century woman.  Her modern values, like equality and the intrinsic value of every human person, appeal to and will eventually affect WS as regent.  I think this was the point Taejo was trying to make in his meeting with her, he thought she had knowledge of the future and believed she would use this to influence the princes and the future and he warns her not to do so.  

This is why WS may not end up like his father.. because the Taejo of this drama is completely a man of his times and circumstances whereas WS is not.  Nothing about WS's upbringing, education, relationship with his family or relationship with HS can be called typical of his time and circumstances (at least for the purposes of this drama).

That's it for now...  Ciao, ciao...

 

 

 

[[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner]

Good Morning, Chingu...

Finally watched Eps. 12 & 13 last night...  only comment on those is... YH certainly thinks highly of herself.  She's going to make WW king, she's going to make WS king, she's going to be WY's Queen...

Regarding the speculation above about WS and YH's children... I mentioned before history is written by the scribes writing for the regent who determines what gets written for posterity.  If the regent claims all his issue are from his Queen then that is what gets written regardless of the actual circumstances of the birth so, unless there is empiricle evidence to the contrary (i.e., eye-witness confirmation), we have no way of knowing who the actual mother of WS's children were.  Just what the scribes were told to write.

More interesting to me is the historical WS upon which the character is based.  So far I've seen two dramas about him, Shine or Go Cray and Scarlet Heart.  In each, he is portrayed as someone who was disqualified for the throne but who ended up as regent.  In both he is a kind of silent hero.  He's definitely someone worthy of further study...

My guess at the ending to this drama...  HS makes her way back to the 21st century and becomes a sort-of historical scholar and rewrites the history books to present WS as someone who overcame tremendous obstacles to become King rather than a monster who killed all his brothers...

Cheers...

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4 hours ago, itzibitzispider said:

History says so ... but I honestly fail to see how he could love that thing?

Maybe he only ever loves HS, married YH for status, family connections or whatever (he is already out of the "better" family ... you know keep your enemies close ... after HS died he might have had to marry yet another, but she failed to receive? And he just bedded YH out of obligation and the need of the "heir and spare"?

You do not need to love a person to bed her or get her with child. Might as well think about  refurnishing the library while at it. Count the days, look at the moon, wait for the astronomer and royal physician to tell you "Now" visit her bedchamber and roll over her (oh how romantic)
Might not work 100%, but at least saves you to bed her each night ...

The drama is leaning on history, not 100% copy-paste ... specially as we do not know for sure, what really happend or lead up to a conflict ... it's like a rumor "Did you hear that?" "He said ... and then, she did ... and you know what happend" and so on
Even the historians that wrote it down right away, might left something out (not to bring misfortune on their door) or added something (to get certain favors or shed a better light on their family).

Amen!  Like the disclaimer at the beginning of the drama states, the drama takes a creative license to history... But, seriously, when WS eventually finds out that YH was behind the attempted poisoning of the CP, and his own actual poisoning, and the death of Lady Oh and torture and almost-death of HS, I would be surprised if he doesn't kill her as a threat to the CP...  I'm actually hoping he does...  and here's another thing about history, as they say, it is "written by the victors" so the five children may or may not be the issue of WS and YH, they may just be the acknowledged heirs by the scribes of the time as royal children because the regents declared them so, i.e., they could be the King's children by another wife or concubine who is claimed as "her own" child by a barren Queen and this is what gets recorded for posterity.  I mean, a King must be seen as "virile", that father of the nation thing so its not far fetched to think that not all five children were the actual biological issue of the couple.

I hope the "creative license" goes this way...  HS intercedes with WS to spare YH's life when its revealed she was behind the poisoning.  The King's deathbed wish is that WS marry YH because even in his last moments he wants to dote on this pitiful piece of pathetic and wants her protected and he knows that among his sons there is no one else capable.  WS does his duty but also marries HS, or marries HS first but because of YH's position, she becomes first wife and HS second.  And this will kind-of fit with the historical record since I think I read the second wife was a Hae.  I know when I remarked on this the first time someone pointed out that the "Hae" in question was a niece or something.  Whatever.  For the purposes of the "creative license" the drama could be taking, the Hae of history could very well be Hae Soo.  Then this will superficially fit with the history.  But because HS is not of royal blood, her issue with WS would have to be "adopted" by YH for the children to be "royal blood" directly descended from Taejo and not diluted by WS marriage with a commoner.  After what WS went through with his half-brothers' fight for the throne, the last thing he would want would be that his children be used as political pawns by scheming families.  If his children are declared to be his issue with his (half-)sister (yuk!), there are no other puppet masters out there.  All the children are accepted to be his by his first wife, the daughter of his father Taejo.  In the end, then, he ends up doing the opposite of Taejo who attempted to use marriage as a political tool to unify the Kingdom.  In this scenario, there is one King, one family and one rule.

Happy weekend!

 

[[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner]

Hello again, Chingu...

Consider all your posts "liked"...  I'm way behind but of what I've read there are lots of creative people in this forum with their thinking caps on...  Again, pardon me if some one else already said this but...

I've been thinking about the preview for episode 12...  the murder or attempted murder of the King...  just speculating here but, HS's memory of her Korean history is that WS kills all his brothers to ascend to the throne and she thinks he's some sort of monster-in-the-making because of this.  But this doesn't fit with WS's character.  What does fit with his character is, as the King wanted him to be the CP's "shield", if the King dies or is incapacitated, his other brothers and their puppet-masters go after the CP and WS protects the CP and the dead King's wishes.  Of course, this will result in the deaths of all his brothers but not because of WS's lust for the throne but because of their own ambitions and of those behind them.  This would also make the case for WS also wiping out the manipulating families... because had not the power-hungry families pushed and manipulated the respective princes, he would not have had to kill his brothers to defend the CP and carry out the King's wishes...

Just thinking...

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Just watched Ep. 11 with subs and lots of tissue...

You know... matricide is an ugly, horrific, unconscionable sin.  But in Queen Yoo's case, I'd be willing to overlook all that to see her de-throned...

Favorite lines from today's episode:

WS to HS:  You really know how to cause me problems.

HS to WS:  I don't know what to do with you.

WS to HS:  Always lecturing...

They already sound like a long-time married couple....  

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Been away and am way, way behind but I just have to say this...  ...this drama really does death scenes well...

Ah, the burden of being king, part military general, part. politician, part diplomat, full-time strategist.  I haven't read all the postings so pardon me if I step on someone else's post..  I've been thinking about the Crown Prince.  I must say, of all Taejo's sons, he really is the only one who appears to have all the qualities to be a future king.  He isn't as hard as Taejo .but he seems thoughtful, compassionate, diplomatic, we've seen he's gone out on military missions so. there's no lack of courage there.  All the other sons are either power hungry, greedy, scheming, immature and lazy such as when Wang Wook tells his mother he just wants to live a comfortable life.  Well, heck, someone's got to make that comfort possible..

It seemed to me Lady Oh was ill, all the eating of bland poridge, etc.,  She claimed it was so she could better taste tea but I think she may have had stomach cancer and while I haven't watched Ep. 11 with subs, I'm thinking the conversation with Soo and the King went something like, I'm dying anyway so let me take responsibility for the attempted poisoning of the Crown Prince...  Hopefully, Soo will get kicked out of the palace at the same time So also has to leave to return to Shinju and they both can find their way into that pool and back to the 21st Century.

Oh, another thing.  I wondered why So waited so long before coming out to stand beside HS.  Methinks he knew of her infatuation with WW and so waited until his brother showed his true colors before stepping up to show her who the real man was...

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2 hours ago, anzhe said:

The face of the girl riding with WW is hidden, maybe a decoy so the real one can escape?

Brilliant!  I'm thinking you're absolutely correct....  Brava...

1 hour ago, ktcjdrama said:

Moon Lovers -- I wonder how this title came about. How are they going to be connected by the moon... at least we are shown that WS-HS both appreciate the moon and stars in Goryeo. Will the moon play a role in transporting GHJ back? and maybe hopefully WS too?

Great insight.  At first I thought the "Moon Lovers" title was a tribute to the drama's Chinese origin but then it must have some significance in the Chinese culture so I read an article about the Moon Festival and the Lady of the Moon.  Long story short, the Lady of the Moon is the wife of a hero who saved the Earth from drought and the people from death by shooting down 9 of 10 suns.  Rewarded with an elixir of immortality, he gives this to his wife for safekeeping but while he's away a neighbor comes to steal it and the wife swallows the elixir, immediately becoming a goddess where she resides on the Moon, since its closest to Earth where she can continue to watch over her husband.  Okay, so that's the mythology.  I'm reading all kinds of possibilities into this as I am sure my insightful and creative Soompi colleagues here are as well... too many to go into right now. That said, there is another possibility.  An eclipse occurs when the Moon completely covers the Sun.  HS time travels during an eclipse.  She "enters" Goryeo when the Moon is stronger than (blacks out) the Sun.  The eclipse "brings" her, she is a de facto Lady of the Moon.  If we continue with the mythology, HS's husband will be a hero who saves the land and the people and HS will be his greatest love and protector.

1 hour ago, qwenli said:

it was a very big issue not to have children, (in fact the influential Confucius said that not having children is the no.1 on the list of failing to be filial becos the bloodline cannot be continued) and lady hae clearly is not able to fulfill her role. So arranging for her husband to get another concubine is par for norm.

Greetings... yes, this is true.  However, I think for the purposes of this drama what we're supposed to see in the scene is the selfless, self-sacrificing love Lady Hae has for WW.  I say this also because according to what we saw in Ep. 5, WW's family was banished from the city and it was Lady Hae's family who made them acceptable again.  I think we're also supposed to see that Lady Hae, and probably everyone else, thought her love was one-sided and that WW doesn't realie what his feelings for her are until she is dying and, even then, she doesn't want to hear his declaration of love.  For WW, Lady Hae is like his Moon Lady, raining down blessings on him from a place far above him and wanting nothing in return.  I'm thinking since WW had his Moon Lady, our adorable little HS will become a Moon Lady for our dashing and damaged hero WS.

Now, if I were to apply say, Shakespeare, to the above scenario, I would say that "Moon Lovers" is the equivalent of saying "star-crossed lovers" or "lovers who were never meant to be", heroic but tragic lovers.

 

 

 

[[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner]

Greetings, All,

I've been following this thread for a few days and have enjoyed your insights.  I may have missed it but has anyone commented yet on the disconnect in the preview for Ep. 6 where in the HDF version I watched raw this morning, its WS who spirits HS away and in the DF version I just watched with subs, its WW who spirits HS away.  I guess we'll have to wait for tomorrow to see who really rescues our adorable little heroine (BTW I HATED how she looked all Goryeo-glammed up; she looked like a mini-version of Wicked Witch Yoo) but I'll put my hopes on WS since "marrying HS off" is the equivalent of "adopting WS out" and he knows first-hand how miserable that was and he also doesn't mind being the "rouge prince" and if Wicked Witch Yoo is behind the marriage, well, all the better for ticking her off...

And where did that pathetic piece of pitiful named YH come from...  She's more like Wicked Witch Yoo than she is like her supposedly biological mother and brother and the DF preview makes it seem like she's behind the "marriage" of HS.  I guess she wasn't paying attention when her mother pointed out that the only reason they were able to walk the streets of Goryeo or whatever they call that city in the drama is because of HS's family...  I guess she missed out on the lesson about never, ever returning evil for good...  That's okay, if WS didn't despise her before, he'll despise her now...

And the final scenes of today's drama were probably the most beautiful I think I've ever seen in a drama, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, whatever... Spectacular scenery, music, costumes, dialogue, acting and story line.  Gorgeous, respectful, dignified death scene fitting for Lady Hae's character.   In lots of ways this drama is on a completely different level from the traditional k-drama trope.

I did some Wiki-reading about WS, also because he was a character in another drama I watched, Shine or Go Crazy.  The article I read said WS marries YH but lists a second wife, his niece, the daughter of King Haejong.  I'm wondering if this "Haejong" is related to our Hae So and Lady Hae.  Anybody got any ideas.  I note the disclaimer before the drama about "creative license" being taken with the history.  This would make me happy:  WS marries HS for love; Taejo forces WS to marry YH for political reasons and WS ignores her until Taejo dies, then locks her up in a nunnery afterward...  Where's that devil emoggi.....

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13 hours ago, homura said:

Frankly speaking, in my eyes, SFD is a bloody love-hate bromance between Yi Bang-Won and Jung Do-Jeon. (LOL)

@homura - As usual, brilliant insight!  This is the primary relationship in the drama.  Every other relationship is subordinated to this relationship...  LBW's relationship with his father is in support of JDJ's cause; LBW's relationship with BY is in support of JDJ's cause (by her choice); LBW's relationship with his wife is in support of JDJ's cause; the relationship between YH and LBJ is that both are supporters of JDJ's cause and every other character in the drama, Moo Hyul, etc., is brought into the drama in support of one of the characters supporting JDJ's cause.

Ultimately I think we will see the evil I spoke about in my last post work itself out in this relationship as well and then we will see the beginning of the end of Joseon...

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

On 12/2/2015, 5:38:15, homura said:

Hong In-Bang asserted that a human being can throw a child into a well for his own benefit. Human nature is so inclined towards selfishness that it is inevitable for human societies to fall into chaos. Goryeo is hopeless. If he can’t change the chaos, he had no choice but to be the part of the chaos.

Greetings, All,

@homura - Many thanks for your brilliant work fact checking, filling in the historical background and providing insight into the philosophical underpinnings of the politics in the drama.  Regarding the above quote, doesn't this mirror GTM's dying ehortation that if he didn't take advantage of the poor and helpless who should he have taken advantage of... the rich and powerful?  And his (correct) assessment of fallen human nature that from the beginning (a thousand years ago) and to the end (a thousand years from now) the nature of human beings is to lean toward selfishness for the purpose of self-preservation and elevation in the community (society).  You can see why these two were friends and relatives...  Regarding Samsa, I can see how this can function as a system of checks and balances of the political class and this responds to HIB, but what's not addressed is the relationship between the political class and the majority non-noble, non-political, non-scholarly class which is what GTM's statement is referring to...but then we'd be talking about something more akin to a social contract...  Its too bad JDJ didn't hear GTM's last words in addition to HIB's last words, he may have devised a different system...  and we'd have a different drama...

The "worm in the heart"... what do you think this refers to?  Blind ambition, hunger for power, greed...?  Ah, I just read JDJ's words again, we have a saying here that the person who steps on other people to get to the top with the intention of then doing great things when he gets to the top, will be a person at the top who steps on people...  In other words, does the end justify the means or does the means justify the ends...  Can a person who will plot political intrigue, hold suspicions, falsely accuse and murder to create a "just society" be a "just" ruler?  Can a society be "just" if its foundation is based on all the foregoing...  I think back to that good/just speech LBW had with HIB, LBW is willing to forego "good" to be "just" but, can you separate goodness and justice, or are you (or that worm in your heart) blinding yourself to the reality that one cannot be both evil and just or good and unjust... the moment you step on the path of evil, injustice naturally follows... it may take a while for it to materialize, but eventually materialize it will...   So what does this mean?  That the end of every great society is implanted at its birth... 

I can't find the cite now but there was some talk about the "secret" that could get BY's brother killed... What I took from this is that the now LBJ and perhaps little sister BY are the illegitimate children of some royal and a maid and I am speculating here but I foresee a role for GTM's twin brother in this drama as, perhaps, protector, life-long love of the deceased (or missing) mother or even perhaps foster father of LBJ and biological father of BY...  That's what I'm thinking...

What I'm hoping is that LBJ and YH get over their tragic past, together take out all the baddies who raped her and find a place in each other's heart again...  And since they're both fictional chacaters, it can happen... writer-nim????

Finally, I'm gonna miss that blue eye shadow...

 

 

 

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@eunsuhae - " BW doesn't seem to perceive it as a "murder". He was only executing an act of justice, turning a wrong into a right..."  

Greetings, my friend, I am surprised there isn't much talk here about the "biggest secret" YBW shared with his new wife...  her response is probably what I would have epected if it says there "I killed three scholar bullies when I was 12..."  I'm still not willing to go there.  I have to rewatch and think more about the good/justice speech.  It was written in there for a reason and it is significant to the plot and I don't think it was just there as a way for YBW to justify murder because if he is guilty of three murders, then he knows, based on his reasoning, that justice demands of him his death three times, so, if his goal is to be a just man, then he needs to commit suicide three times.  I don't know Korean history but, from my perspective, the writers so far are making YBW out to be an idealistic, brash young man in whom you can see emerging courage, wisdom and leadership.  That's why the mass-murder thing is a disconnect for me.  It doesn't fit with the character the writers have been developing, the problem is with the character development not with whether YBW could use a sword or the even more unlikely scenario of him taking out three bullies bigger than him in one night without so much as a scratch..

@chasen8888 - "SFD is not a romantic saguek it’s a combination of historical fact & fiction as to the birth of a new nation and the lives of the people who contributed to its life primarily from BW’s perspective which is being told to us in a very interesting manner."

Very well, said...

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@zenya22 and others:  Mea culpa.  After re-watching the beginning of Episode 4, it does appear/appear as you say that the young YBW is behind the murders of the three scholars.  I say appears because I'm not yet ready to concede that a scrawny tween can take on and kill three older, burlier bullies which is what that scenario would suggest.  There was no previous indication that YBW had military or training using a sword, in fact, his bodyguard was there for a reason, he wasn't able to sufficiently protect himself in the mind of his father.  He was being raised to do something in the civilian world, i.e., scholar or civil servant, it seems to me, not in the military realm, that seems to have been his father's intention for his older brothers.  Anyway, until that is cleared up by the writers, we will just have to wait and see...

@eunsuhae - Yes, please see above.  It is implied which is why I don't accept it as fact.  How YBW could change so drastically from the boy who cowered before those three bullies to actually somehow overcoming them in a sword battle is beyond me.  Also, if he is a serial murderer at that young age, he would not be the kind of whimpy young man we see in later episodes.  I accept as King Taejong does all kinds of evil but to go from serial murderer at what appears to be 12 or 13 to the kind of idealistic romantic lover we see in Episodes 13 and 14 (haven't watched 15 and 16 yet), doesn't make sense.  Hopefully the writers will eventually clear this up with a flashback in which we see someone else does the murders (Minister Lee?) and YBW is a witness even if he talks tough and seemingly takes responsibility before HIB.  Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

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@chickpea the reason you gave are the reasons that those who thinks he was real give

but there is a growing group of academics that after analyzing platos writing and style have come to a decision that most likely he didnt exist 

and was a ruse of the time  - the assumption that socrates wanted to be part of the ppl and therefor didnt want to write his thoughts and philosophy can go also against him since it was so unusual

the debate is documented so it just depend on what you lean towards

i think that to point such a thing this day - im talking about 10 years back - must mean there is some doubt so unless it proven without a doubt im leaning towards plato and nor socrates  - which to me seem more likely 

but i do agree that no matter who said it the meaning is the same - which is whats important 

@nevill - Thanks for this my wisdom-loving friend...  I haven't done any studies in the field for 12 years now.  I love Plato...

@USAFarmGirl - Regarding who killed the scholars, I'll have to go back and rewatch Episode 4.  I am trying to remember but I think I thought BW had arrived at the scene of the murders after they had taken place.  I know he makes the good/just speech to HIB at the beginning of Ep. 4  but I thought he was just sparing with a man he knows to be evil...  Thank you.

 

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

@nevill - Re the historical Socrates, he is mentioned by other historians of the time and in historical documents and both Plato and Aristotle claim to have been his disciples, so...  he must have been a real person and not a legend...

@zenya22 and others - Please rewatch Episode 3 at 46.17 and following, especially 47.05.  HIB and GTM are behind the murders of the three scholars, not the young BW.  At 46.17 GTM uses the threat of punishing Baek Yoon's son for the murder of the scholars to get him to sign over what appears to be half of his lands after Minister Lee tells him to leave BY alone and he whines he has no land.  At 47.05, after GTM tells HIB that people like BY need to have their sons accused of murder before they will sign papers, HIB responds that it is now time for GTM to keep his promise after which GTM asks HIB if he murdered the scholars himself to which HIB responds that he hired an assassin.  So, just to clear up, YBW does not/not murder the three scholars either by an assassin or his own hand.

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

@chickpea Thank you so much for the Socrates bit of information, it actually makes sense and explains why his name shows up in related discussions of the topic.

As for BW killing the three villain scholars, it was implied in the scene where young BW confronted HIB (I forgot which episode). We saw (in a flashback or a previous scene, I forgot again sorry) HIB ask the hired assassin about what happened and the assassin told him the scholars were already dead so he simply put the "evidence" there and left. HIB then joined the dots while listening to BW and judging from the crazy look in BW's eyes then he knew (and us as viewers) that he killed them.

Actually, I was just going back to edit that bit but I guess I can just clarify here.  While the words are Socrates, Symposium was written by Plato.  We have no writings of Socrates.  Everything we know about him comes from the plays by Plato who--much like BW in our drama following around JDJ--was one of the young men of Athens who followed Socrates around, learning philosophy from him.  So, whether the actual sentiment is that of Socrates or Plato is ambiguous.  Plato is not listed as one of the participants in the Symposium yet he is the writer of the play but whichever Greek said it, the sentiment is the same, in matters of the utmost importance, the wise man seeks the counsel of a wise woman... (nothing about her being, behind, beside or in front of him)...  Cheers!

Thank you.  I will rewatch the earlier episodes.  That didn't register with me and I'm not thinking the "he" is BW...

@nevill - Both Socrates and Plato were real...  As was Aristotle, and Plato and Aristotle both followed Socrates around Athens learning philosophy at his feet...

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

@eunsuhae ; "Your comment got me curious and had me looking for the origin of the saying and surprisingly no one really knows! (Some sources even mentioned Socrates!)  It must have been one of those universal thoughts expressed in many cultures and languages till its origin got lost in history. Anyway, the main idea still remains relevant to this day and that's cool."

In Symposium, the group (less Socrates) assembles to discuss "love" a topic that is considered so important that they banish the serving girl from the room since it is not a topic that can be heard by female ears.  Three notable philosophers give their speeches in praise of love before Socrates arrives.  When he does, he is asked to discuss the nature of love.  Socrates begins by saying, "When I wanted to learn about love, I sought out the Wise Woman Diotima..."  In other words, the wisest man sought out the counsel of the wisest woman...  That would be, I think, the closest thing I can think of regarding that saying as attributable to Socrates.  Otherwise, it shows up online as a saying that originated with the feminist movement in the 1960 although the sentiment predated that movement..

@zenya22 - "I hope that seeing this latest episode, you will understand BW better. This is a political drama and BW is not a sappy sentimental romantic who will go marry some girl just because he got rejected. Do you really think that if BY accepted his proposal and became his mistress that he will not marry Lady Min. It was his decision to marry LM because it was politically expedient... and following"

Good morning.  I haven't yet watched Ep. 15 because it's not yet online here.  But, what I think is what I said, that BW doesn't decide to offer to marry LM until after BY has rejected him three times and this, I believe, also follows the script of the drama. Everything else is speculation and trying to ascribe intention to the characters' actions.  Do I think BW is a political animal?  Of course.  But does that mean he cannot also be a romantic?  Of course not.  Because BW is a political animal, does it follow that he cannot  also fall all "sappy sentimental" over some woman?  Of course not.  Otherwise, no politician would procreate (this might be a good thing) and there would be no dramas.  Why do we watch them?  Because all the men are strong, all the women are admirable and the strong men fall all "sappy sentimental" over them.  That's the romance genre.  I'm watching this drama as literature and for the history, I don't much care about who ends up with whom.  So, when I see a character like BY who has been so strong and admirable up to Ep. 13, and who has so obviously showed she cares deeply for BW in the lead up to his confession in the forest have such a personality change and ehibit all kinds of other psychological issues after this man professes himself (whether you think it was marriage or not), it upsets me--not with the character, but with the writers.  They are stripping BY of all the courage and nobility she has shown previously and all because BW professes his love for her...  This woman who previously was afraid of nothing, is now terrified of love?   Sorry, I don't buy it.  All the talk about punishment, culture and legalities for entering into a relationship with BW doesn't make sense to me since those same considerations didn't stop her from following her heart in the past.  As I said in my last post, this is a drama, so the writers could have had them get together and the General order BW to marry LM and that would have been a political move--a purely political move--where BW forsakes his heart and his love for some political gain.  That's not what happens.  Even the writers don't raise the situation of the marriage with LM until AFTER BY has rejected BW three times so, it seems to me, even the writers are making the connection between BY's rejection of BW and his decision to marry LM. 

Regarding "this is the kid who killed 3 students when he was 12 because he thought it was just", can you tell me in which episode that happens because I didn't see that.  I saw Minister Lee's son and two others bully a scholar until he committed suicide...  and I saw them attempt to do the same to the young BW but I never saw BW kill three students.  I saw BW upset when his father forced him to watch the eecution of the traitor in Episode 1.  I know the historical King Taejong commits all kinds of atrocities, but so far, in this drama, the BW the writers have presented is an idealistic, somewhat naive, nationalistic young man.  

Someone in this thread wrote something I thought was very insightful but I can't find the cite now.  It went something along the lines of "BW's love for BY is actually showing his love for the people, or the future King Taejong's love for the people of Joseon..."  Whoever wrote that, bravo!

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

Bang-Won never proposed marriage to Boon-Yi. That's exactly my point.

He is smart. He already knows that it is impossible to marry her in the Goryeo sociey. He also didn't say he would make her a concubine. There is no solution about reality, just love and heart. "I love you. I know you are mine. Accept my love. I want to be your comfort instead of your family. What? Are you refusing me? Why?" This can not be called a marriage proposal. Just love confession.

Even if he loves Boon-Yi, he will choose to marry Lady Min for political benefits. He is that kind of person, and Boon-Yi already knows it. Don't think he is a typical melo drama hero. He is not sacrificing himself. It was his choice. That's my point.

 

 

This was how that scene came across to me, too. There was no offer of marriage. It was an offer of love & comfort (to be her "family", in lieu of her real family because she has none (discounting DS - they didn't know he's still alive.) Boon-Yi knew how difficult and impossible the situation is, so she said no, even though she loves him. She doesn't have the luxury to say 'yes' even though that would have made them both happy.

Good Morning,

Okay, okay, I submit to your knowledge of the culture and the history.  I think the text

 

is ambiguous on this point and, perhaps, on purpose.  The writers aren't writing a historically-accurate text even if the history must eventually end up correct.  BY is a fictional character SO they could make anything happen between she and YBW. From the perspective of this Western woman, BY is, so far, the only female dragon and that is for a reason, she is YBW's equal.  Also, I remember when she was identified as a dragon there was a subnote stating that she was YBW's lifelong love.  She is not his social equal but they are equal in spirit and this is what he has realized instinctually.  The writers have gone out of their way to make her appear to be a strong and courageous woman who, in her own words, wants to strike down "this shitty world (Goryeo)".  Nothing about her character to this point fits with the whiny, petty and petulant BY we saw at the beginning of Ep. 13 in the woods with YBW.  That's why I don't buy that she's being honest with him.  She's lying to herself and to him.  There is some other reason she is keeping him at arms length and, since the writers inserted that clip of her remembering her brother and YH at their happiest moment just before their worst moment, I'm thinking she is making some psychological connection between what happens between them and what MIGHT happen between her and YBW.  But that would mean, taken into contex

 

t with everything else she said, like about not caring about people, etc., to mean that BY has serious psychological issues and that doesn't make me happy.

 

You know the culture better than I so, yes, YBW did not come out and say "BY marry me, please" but he did say he has always known that she was "his" soulmate and, later on when she was washing clothes, he told her he wanted to be a family with her, to be her beloved and someone special to her. Since I'm not aware of men ever so beautifully asking women to be just lifelong friends with or without benefits, it registers with me that he is asking her to marry him even if he doesn't think farther than that moment, which is why she calls him immature and unrealistic.  I think he's a romantic.  When BY says that the law won't allow them to be together and that he knows that, he responds it isn't about that (the law) right now.  So, here's the thing.  They are both in this fight to take down the corrupt Goryeo and to build a new Joseon.  There are people of the noble class, the warrior class, the scholarly class and the peasant class all working together for this goal.  This seems very democratic.  To my way of thinking, YBW is asking for a long engagement... he just wants to be assured of her feelings since neither of them may live to see a new Joseon and neither of them knows what that new Joseon will look like and if in that new world it would be possible for them to  be together.  Under the laws of Goryeo it is impossible but under the laws of a new Joseon yet to be written perhaps not.  In BY's mind, we see her thinking that she will never make a family and that if she is loved by someone she "will feel too shameless to her brother".  Now, this I don't understand and perhaps you can enlighten us.  Why would she sacrifice her own happiness for a brother she hasn't seen for a decade or more because of something she screamed at him in anger when she was a child.  This isn't noble or loving or courageous or even honest at this point.  This is BY taking out her anger at herself for something she did a decade ago, her envy at BY for being so well-loved by his father and brothers and her frustration with her place in the social order on YBW and that is completely out of character with the BY we've seen so far.  If this is the true BY, than there was no nobility to her cultivating that field, harvesting those crops to feed the townsfolk and setting fire to the store house.  If this is the true BY, then those were the actions not of a courageous leader, but of a bandit pure and simple.  But if BY was nothing more than a thief and troublemaker, she wouldn't be a dragon.  There is something here that doesn't fit and, like I said, since BY is a fictional character who doesn't end up with King Taejong and Ms. Min does, the writers probably needed a way to put an end to his infatuation with her so her character fades to the background and to bring in Ms. Min, who does become Queen, into a more prominent role in YBW's life and the drama.

@zenya22 - YBW had no intention of marrying Ms. Min or anyone else until after BY rejects him, not once, not twice, but three times.  When he hears about the baddies trying to forge an alliance through marriage, and since the woman he has always loved has rejected him so definitively, he then decides if he can't have (marriage with) the woman he loves, he might as well make a marriage that is helpful to his father and useful to the cause (a political marriage).  @valsava is right, YBW's decision is all about BY rejecting him.  Look, this is a drama, BY could have accepted him, they could have been on Cloud Nine and then the General could have ordered YBW to marry Ms. Min for an alliance with her family.  THAT would have been a political move.  That's not what happens.  YBW offers himself up AFTER BY has rejected him multiple times.  

The writers have a goal here and I think that goal is to put the future King Taejong in as good and noble a light as possible since I think that's the goal of this drama, to tell the story of King Taejong and, based on what I read about him on the internet, they will have their hands full...

 

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

@homura - "I'm not reading any subtitles. I'm a native Korean living in Seoul. To me, that's not a marriage proposal at all. If you think so, it's due to the mistransaltion of the subtitle you read. Actually, while watching ep 13~14, I thought Bang-Won was really irresponsible. Boon-Yi said reality, but Bang-Won guaranteed nothing..."

...and this eplains why we have different perceptions about what is happening.  I am not Korean and I depend on the subtitles which, on the site I watch, uses native speakers for translation.  I am an American but I have studied literature and history and I approach the story as literature and history.  The only "correct" answer here, is the fact that Ms. Min becomes Mrs. King Taejong because that's historically accurate.  Everything else is dramatic or artistic license and that's the beauty of the drama and evidence of great writing.  Everyone watching the drama will bring their background to it and get something different out of it and, when we share it here, we all benefit from the tapestry of ideas that are brought forth.

So, just to make sure I didn't miss something, I went back and re-watched Episode 13.  JDJ turns YBW over to BY; she, in turn, takes him to the doctor and threatens violence on the doctor if he is not more gentle with YBW.  Everything about her actions say she cares deeply for YBW and he notices it.  When they are in the forest, he hugs her and asks why she didn't tell him she was the child who was with him back then.  He says after she set the fire, after she stole his shirt, after she ran away at the Inn and since she was a child, "I knew, she's the one.  She is mine."  At this point, in her minds eye, BY sees her brother putting the cosmetic on YH just before the baddies raid the village and she is raped.  She then pushes YBW away and runs off saying she feels like she is betraying her brother.  When YBW finds her, she says to him, "I have no intention of being yours.  I have no feelings for you.  A long time ago I decided not to have feelings for people.  I can't love someone and its annoying to receive it from someone.  What feelings or love can happen in this shitty world.  For me, I am just thankful that you saved me.  We are comrades with a common goal and its a more important relationship than your family."  YBW asks, "Are you refusing me?"  BY replies, "Yes.  Come to think of it, I really don't like that you are YBW.  (We) don't have family names.  Love with someone like you, to get involved, how will I be punished?  I can see it in front of my eyes."

So, from your perspective, YBW is immature and irresponsible in Episodes 13 and 14.  From my perspective, BY shows herself to be a petty coward in Episode 13 when it comes to what should be the most important thing to her, her own heart.  The fact that she says the comrade relationship "is more important than your family" seems, to me, to indicate she knows YBW meant marriage even if he didn't outright say it.  Her claims that she decided "not to have feelings for people", that she can't love someone and its annoying to receive love, even if in trying times, and her declaration that she doesn't like YBW because he has a surname and she doesn't just makes her look petty and petulant.  And I don't buy it.  She wasn't afraid of punishment for cultivating that field or hiding the crops or burning down the storehouse or tying up YBW and leaving him shirtless, etc. etc., but she's afraid of loving the man who has just said that he has always loved her?  I don't buy it.  I'm not sure where the writers are going with this--probably trying to stay true to history and hitch Ms. Min and YBW--but, if anything, I would wonder if BY has suffered some psychological damage as a result of her brother's failure to help YH in her time of need and if the "betrayal" she feels is more about his betrayal of YH than of her betrayal of him.

@valsava - still think the site is slow?  

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

@homura - "

"First, Yi Bang-Won never asked Boon-Yi to marry him... and following"

Greetings,

Yes, I can see your perspective and maybe we're reading different subtitles, but for me, saying he wanted to give her the comfort of family (since she is technically an orphan without siblings at this point) is, for me, the same thing as saying, he wants TO BE her family.  Stating his intention without actually proposing.  One of the things YBW admired most about BY is the fact that she never let things like unjust laws stand in her way in the past... not when she cultivated that field that didn't belong to her town, not when they tried to hide the product of that field instead of submitting it for taes and not when she burned the storehouse to the ground.  Her courage in refusing to abide by blatantly unjust laws is one of the things that made her attractive to him; I think he even calls her the strongest woman he knows.  I, therefore, find it difficult to believe that she would let the unjust cultural mores of a Goryeo they are trying to overthrow control matters of her heart.  This is a woman who courageously acts on her heart and what she knows to be right.  And I don't see the connection with her brother, I know she mentions it, but I think it's an ecuse.  I do understand her not wanting to be a concubine; that is the only thing she said that makes any sense and fits with her character... she's in it for all or nothing.  Yes, perhaps YBW's older brother could have been a marriage partner for--Ms. Min?--but he didn't present himself, not that I'm aware of, so YBW in what I agree is an immature act of trying to "get back" at BY for refusing him, offers himself as a groom.  Anyway, that's how I see it...

And, yes, as @valentvcd correctly points out below, what happens in the drama must reflect what actually happened in history...  I think the original question was whether YBW's intention in offering marriage with Ms. Min was a political move... my response was that it was and it wasn't, had BY agreed to marry him, stand by his side, allow him to be her family, whatever you think he meant with his offer, I do not believe he would have offered to marry into the Min family.  It is only because BY had just rejected him so definitively he saw a way to perhaps hurt her and do something to help his father and the cause.  Had BY accepted him, I don't think he would have made the offer and then we would have a drama that didn't fit the history...

 

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

Hey guys im kinda late following this drama, as im recently watching Ep10

I would like to talk bout the EP15, Why Bang Won should marry other girl? Arent he loves Boon Yi? 

Or perhaps he just fooling around her? what a painful to watch if they not endup together 

 

After all, Yi Bang-Won is a political animal. He has had a strong desire for power since he was a little kid. Do you remember the conversation between Hong In-Bang and Yi Bang-Won in the temple? Bang-Won can tolerate the psychological torture from Hong In-Bang, but Hong said that Bang-Won wouldn't be able to endure the powerless condition any longer. Bang-Won was also aware of it.

I don't think anything can stop him. Even his love for Boon-Yi can't stop him from marrying Lady Min for political benefits. And Boon-Yi already knows it.

Greetings, Friend,

I'd like to offer a different perspective...  from my point of view YBW isn't marrying for political power, even though, by this marriage he acquires a powerful political ally in his wife-to-be and her family.  From my perspective, he is sacrificing his future happiness for his father's political future and the sake of the new Joseon.  Why do I say this?  First of all, he asks BY to marry him, tells her he has always loved her and probably always will (I'm paraphrasing, of course).  BY refuses him (dumb move but necessary for the story line) right about the time there arises this need for some political alliance with this family to strengthen his father's position in the Council.  DJD previously "taught" YBW the necessity for sacrifice to achieve some greater end when he was eplaining why it took so long to rescue him from the Tribunal.  To YBW, since the woman of his dreams (and heart) has outright rejected him and told him in no uncertain terms (paraphrasing again) that Hell could freeze over and she STILL wouldn't marry him because of the difference in their classes (pulling my hair out right about now)... he offers himself up as a marriage partner for this political alliance which will benefit his father and lay the foundation for a new Joseon.  Since he can't have what he wants, he decides to do what no one else in his family or the organization can do, and marry into the family.  His brothers are not of the right age to marry this girl and the other members of DJD's organization are not of the right social class to marry this young girl.  The only option to counter the bad guys is to offer himself up as a prospective marriage partner but this means he will never have the woman of his dreams since BY has also told him she will NEVER, EVER be a concubine, so this marriage means having to give up any hope of possessing the woman he has loved since childhood...  

@valsava - (blowing kisses...)  Ciao, ciao Sunbae-nim (?)...  Great minds think alike, I guess, so we all end up here together...  

[[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤]

Greetings, All,

I just marathoned the first 12 episodes of this amazing drama and have the last two to go and so I thought I'd take a look at what the "professionals" were saying about the drama in this forum to see if there is anything I missed.  I haven't read everything, yet, just the last few pages but I'm finding this drama is more about the development of the future King Taejong than it is about the relationships between the characters. For instance, the young YBW believes his father to be the "strongest man" until he sees him vulnerable; he believes DJD to be the "strongest man" when he sees him leading the protest outside the city gate and then he sees him subdued and exiled.  He finds the cave and comes to believe the author of the plan for a new Joseon is the "strongest man".  Like all young boys learning what it means to become a man, the young YBW is searching for the ideal man to emulate and, in the process, learns about military power, courage and strength of character from his father; he learns about dedication to a cause and the power of words and a charismatic leader watching DJD outside the city gate and he learns about vision and the power of ideas and strategic planning from his time in the cave.  With each "lesson" he learns the qualities necessary for leadership, that they each have their place and there is an order and a hierarchy.  On some sites, this drama is called "Root of the Throne" and I can see why it is called that.  The root of anything is not just its origin but it is the means by which its life is sustained so calling the drama "Root of the Throne" it seems to be saying that the throne of Joseon was sustained and nurtured by these things:  strength of character, courage, vision, dedication, military power, charismatic leadership and the power of ideas and the ability to articulate them and put them into effect.

[[Drama 2014/2015] Healer 힐러]

@Cinderella1:  "and how long does the military service  last ?
3 months ? 6 months ? "

Greetings, Friend...  However long it is, is too long...  :-*

[[Drama 2014/2015] Healer 힐러]

Just watched Healer Ep. 20 with subs.  Maybe someone else addressed this (too many pages behind to catch up), when Evil Elder was on the phone, the voice said he "almost revealed their existence" makes me think there will be Healer sequels....   Looking forward to it!