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Chickpea

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Posts posted by Chickpea

  1. @chickpea Thank you so much for the Socrates bit of information, it actually makes sense and explains why his name shows up in related discussions of the topic.

    As for BW killing the three villain scholars, it was implied in the scene where young BW confronted HIB (I forgot which episode). We saw (in a flashback or a previous scene, I forgot again sorry) HIB ask the hired assassin about what happened and the assassin told him the scholars were already dead so he simply put the "evidence" there and left. HIB then joined the dots while listening to BW and judging from the crazy look in BW's eyes then he knew (and us as viewers) that he killed them.

    Actually, I was just going back to edit that bit but I guess I can just clarify here.  While the words are Socrates, Symposium was written by Plato.  We have no writings of Socrates.  Everything we know about him comes from the plays by Plato who--much like BW in our drama following around JDJ--was one of the young men of Athens who followed Socrates around, learning philosophy from him.  So, whether the actual sentiment is that of Socrates or Plato is ambiguous.  Plato is not listed as one of the participants in the Symposium yet he is the writer of the play but whichever Greek said it, the sentiment is the same, in matters of the utmost importance, the wise man seeks the counsel of a wise woman... (nothing about her being, behind, beside or in front of him)...  Cheers!

    Thank you.  I will rewatch the earlier episodes.  That didn't register with me and I'm not thinking the "he" is BW...

    @nevill - Both Socrates and Plato were real...  As was Aristotle, and Plato and Aristotle both followed Socrates around Athens learning philosophy at his feet...

    • Like 5
  2. @eunsuhae ; "Your comment got me curious and had me looking for the origin of the saying and surprisingly no one really knows! (Some sources even mentioned Socrates!) :D It must have been one of those universal thoughts expressed in many cultures and languages till its origin got lost in history. Anyway, the main idea still remains relevant to this day and that's cool."

    In Symposium, the group (less Socrates) assembles to discuss "love" a topic that is considered so important that they banish the serving girl from the room since it is not a topic that can be heard by female ears.  Three notable philosophers give their speeches in praise of love before Socrates arrives.  When he does, he is asked to discuss the nature of love.  Socrates begins by saying, "When I wanted to learn about love, I sought out the Wise Woman Diotima..."  In other words, the wisest man sought out the counsel of the wisest woman...  That would be, I think, the closest thing I can think of regarding that saying as attributable to Socrates.  Otherwise, it shows up online as a saying that originated with the feminist movement in the 1960 although the sentiment predated that movement..

    @zenya22 - "I hope that seeing this latest episode, you will understand BW better. This is a political drama and BW is not a sappy sentimental romantic who will go marry some girl just because he got rejected. Do you really think that if BY accepted his proposal and became his mistress that he will not marry Lady Min. It was his decision to marry LM because it was politically expedient... and following"

    Good morning.  I haven't yet watched Ep. 15 because it's not yet online here.  But, what I think is what I said, that BW doesn't decide to offer to marry LM until after BY has rejected him three times and this, I believe, also follows the script of the drama. Everything else is speculation and trying to ascribe intention to the characters' actions.  Do I think BW is a political animal?  Of course.  But does that mean he cannot also be a romantic?  Of course not.  Because BW is a political animal, does it follow that he cannot  also fall all "sappy sentimental" over some woman?  Of course not.  Otherwise, no politician would procreate (this might be a good thing) and there would be no dramas.  Why do we watch them?  Because all the men are strong, all the women are admirable and the strong men fall all "sappy sentimental" over them.  That's the romance genre.  I'm watching this drama as literature and for the history, I don't much care about who ends up with whom.  So, when I see a character like BY who has been so strong and admirable up to Ep. 13, and who has so obviously showed she cares deeply for BW in the lead up to his confession in the forest have such a personality change and ehibit all kinds of other psychological issues after this man professes himself (whether you think it was marriage or not), it upsets me--not with the character, but with the writers.  They are stripping BY of all the courage and nobility she has shown previously and all because BW professes his love for her...  This woman who previously was afraid of nothing, is now terrified of love?   Sorry, I don't buy it.  All the talk about punishment, culture and legalities for entering into a relationship with BW doesn't make sense to me since those same considerations didn't stop her from following her heart in the past.  As I said in my last post, this is a drama, so the writers could have had them get together and the General order BW to marry LM and that would have been a political move--a purely political move--where BW forsakes his heart and his love for some political gain.  That's not what happens.  Even the writers don't raise the situation of the marriage with LM until AFTER BY has rejected BW three times so, it seems to me, even the writers are making the connection between BY's rejection of BW and his decision to marry LM. 

    Regarding "this is the kid who killed 3 students when he was 12 because he thought it was just", can you tell me in which episode that happens because I didn't see that.  I saw Minister Lee's son and two others bully a scholar until he committed suicide...  and I saw them attempt to do the same to the young BW but I never saw BW kill three students.  I saw BW upset when his father forced him to watch the eecution of the traitor in Episode 1.  I know the historical King Taejong commits all kinds of atrocities, but so far, in this drama, the BW the writers have presented is an idealistic, somewhat naive, nationalistic young man.  

    Someone in this thread wrote something I thought was very insightful but I can't find the cite now.  It went something along the lines of "BW's love for BY is actually showing his love for the people, or the future King Taejong's love for the people of Joseon..."  Whoever wrote that, bravo!

    • Like 4
  3. Bang-Won never proposed marriage to Boon-Yi. That's exactly my point.

    He is smart. He already knows that it is impossible to marry her in the Goryeo sociey. He also didn't say he would make her a concubine. There is no solution about reality, just love and heart. "I love you. I know you are mine. Accept my love. I want to be your comfort instead of your family. What? Are you refusing me? Why?" This can not be called a marriage proposal. Just love confession.

    Even if he loves Boon-Yi, he will choose to marry Lady Min for political benefits. He is that kind of person, and Boon-Yi already knows it. Don't think he is a typical melo drama hero. He is not sacrificing himself. It was his choice. That's my point.

     

     

    This was how that scene came across to me, too. There was no offer of marriage. It was an offer of love & comfort (to be her "family", in lieu of her real family because she has none (discounting DS - they didn't know he's still alive.) Boon-Yi knew how difficult and impossible the situation is, so she said no, even though she loves him. She doesn't have the luxury to say 'yes' even though that would have made them both happy.

    Good Morning,

    Okay, okay, I submit to your knowledge of the culture and the history.  I think the text

     

    is ambiguous on this point and, perhaps, on purpose.  The writers aren't writing a historically-accurate text even if the history must eventually end up correct.  BY is a fictional character SO they could make anything happen between she and YBW. From the perspective of this Western woman, BY is, so far, the only female dragon and that is for a reason, she is YBW's equal.  Also, I remember when she was identified as a dragon there was a subnote stating that she was YBW's lifelong love.  She is not his social equal but they are equal in spirit and this is what he has realized instinctually.  The writers have gone out of their way to make her appear to be a strong and courageous woman who, in her own words, wants to strike down "this shitty world (Goryeo)".  Nothing about her character to this point fits with the whiny, petty and petulant BY we saw at the beginning of Ep. 13 in the woods with YBW.  That's why I don't buy that she's being honest with him.  She's lying to herself and to him.  There is some other reason she is keeping him at arms length and, since the writers inserted that clip of her remembering her brother and YH at their happiest moment just before their worst moment, I'm thinking she is making some psychological connection between what happens between them and what MIGHT happen between her and YBW.  But that would mean, taken into contex

     

    t with everything else she said, like about not caring about people, etc., to mean that BY has serious psychological issues and that doesn't make me happy.

     

    You know the culture better than I so, yes, YBW did not come out and say "BY marry me, please" but he did say he has always known that she was "his" soulmate and, later on when she was washing clothes, he told her he wanted to be a family with her, to be her beloved and someone special to her. Since I'm not aware of men ever so beautifully asking women to be just lifelong friends with or without benefits, it registers with me that he is asking her to marry him even if he doesn't think farther than that moment, which is why she calls him immature and unrealistic.  I think he's a romantic.  When BY says that the law won't allow them to be together and that he knows that, he responds it isn't about that (the law) right now.  So, here's the thing.  They are both in this fight to take down the corrupt Goryeo and to build a new Joseon.  There are people of the noble class, the warrior class, the scholarly class and the peasant class all working together for this goal.  This seems very democratic.  To my way of thinking, YBW is asking for a long engagement... he just wants to be assured of her feelings since neither of them may live to see a new Joseon and neither of them knows what that new Joseon will look like and if in that new world it would be possible for them to  be together.  Under the laws of Goryeo it is impossible but under the laws of a new Joseon yet to be written perhaps not.  In BY's mind, we see her thinking that she will never make a family and that if she is loved by someone she "will feel too shameless to her brother".  Now, this I don't understand and perhaps you can enlighten us.  Why would she sacrifice her own happiness for a brother she hasn't seen for a decade or more because of something she screamed at him in anger when she was a child.  This isn't noble or loving or courageous or even honest at this point.  This is BY taking out her anger at herself for something she did a decade ago, her envy at BY for being so well-loved by his father and brothers and her frustration with her place in the social order on YBW and that is completely out of character with the BY we've seen so far.  If this is the true BY, than there was no nobility to her cultivating that field, harvesting those crops to feed the townsfolk and setting fire to the store house.  If this is the true BY, then those were the actions not of a courageous leader, but of a bandit pure and simple.  But if BY was nothing more than a thief and troublemaker, she wouldn't be a dragon.  There is something here that doesn't fit and, like I said, since BY is a fictional character who doesn't end up with King Taejong and Ms. Min does, the writers probably needed a way to put an end to his infatuation with her so her character fades to the background and to bring in Ms. Min, who does become Queen, into a more prominent role in YBW's life and the drama.

    @zenya22 - YBW had no intention of marrying Ms. Min or anyone else until after BY rejects him, not once, not twice, but three times.  When he hears about the baddies trying to forge an alliance through marriage, and since the woman he has always loved has rejected him so definitively, he then decides if he can't have (marriage with) the woman he loves, he might as well make a marriage that is helpful to his father and useful to the cause (a political marriage).  @valsava is right, YBW's decision is all about BY rejecting him.  Look, this is a drama, BY could have accepted him, they could have been on Cloud Nine and then the General could have ordered YBW to marry Ms. Min for an alliance with her family.  THAT would have been a political move.  That's not what happens.  YBW offers himself up AFTER BY has rejected him multiple times.  

    The writers have a goal here and I think that goal is to put the future King Taejong in as good and noble a light as possible since I think that's the goal of this drama, to tell the story of King Taejong and, based on what I read about him on the internet, they will have their hands full...

     

     

    • Like 4
  4. @homura - "I'm not reading any subtitles. I'm a native Korean living in Seoul. To me, that's not a marriage proposal at all. If you think so, it's due to the mistransaltion of the subtitle you read. Actually, while watching ep 13~14, I thought Bang-Won was really irresponsible. Boon-Yi said reality, but Bang-Won guaranteed nothing..."

    ...and this eplains why we have different perceptions about what is happening.  I am not Korean and I depend on the subtitles which, on the site I watch, uses native speakers for translation.  I am an American but I have studied literature and history and I approach the story as literature and history.  The only "correct" answer here, is the fact that Ms. Min becomes Mrs. King Taejong because that's historically accurate.  Everything else is dramatic or artistic license and that's the beauty of the drama and evidence of great writing.  Everyone watching the drama will bring their background to it and get something different out of it and, when we share it here, we all benefit from the tapestry of ideas that are brought forth.

    So, just to make sure I didn't miss something, I went back and re-watched Episode 13.  JDJ turns YBW over to BY; she, in turn, takes him to the doctor and threatens violence on the doctor if he is not more gentle with YBW.  Everything about her actions say she cares deeply for YBW and he notices it.  When they are in the forest, he hugs her and asks why she didn't tell him she was the child who was with him back then.  He says after she set the fire, after she stole his shirt, after she ran away at the Inn and since she was a child, "I knew, she's the one.  She is mine."  At this point, in her minds eye, BY sees her brother putting the cosmetic on YH just before the baddies raid the village and she is raped.  She then pushes YBW away and runs off saying she feels like she is betraying her brother.  When YBW finds her, she says to him, "I have no intention of being yours.  I have no feelings for you.  A long time ago I decided not to have feelings for people.  I can't love someone and its annoying to receive it from someone.  What feelings or love can happen in this shitty world.  For me, I am just thankful that you saved me.  We are comrades with a common goal and its a more important relationship than your family."  YBW asks, "Are you refusing me?"  BY replies, "Yes.  Come to think of it, I really don't like that you are YBW.  (We) don't have family names.  Love with someone like you, to get involved, how will I be punished?  I can see it in front of my eyes."

    So, from your perspective, YBW is immature and irresponsible in Episodes 13 and 14.  From my perspective, BY shows herself to be a petty coward in Episode 13 when it comes to what should be the most important thing to her, her own heart.  The fact that she says the comrade relationship "is more important than your family" seems, to me, to indicate she knows YBW meant marriage even if he didn't outright say it.  Her claims that she decided "not to have feelings for people", that she can't love someone and its annoying to receive love, even if in trying times, and her declaration that she doesn't like YBW because he has a surname and she doesn't just makes her look petty and petulant.  And I don't buy it.  She wasn't afraid of punishment for cultivating that field or hiding the crops or burning down the storehouse or tying up YBW and leaving him shirtless, etc. etc., but she's afraid of loving the man who has just said that he has always loved her?  I don't buy it.  I'm not sure where the writers are going with this--probably trying to stay true to history and hitch Ms. Min and YBW--but, if anything, I would wonder if BY has suffered some psychological damage as a result of her brother's failure to help YH in her time of need and if the "betrayal" she feels is more about his betrayal of YH than of her betrayal of him.

    @valsava - still think the site is slow?  :o

     

    • Like 4
  5. @homura - "

    "First, Yi Bang-Won never asked Boon-Yi to marry him... and following"

    Greetings,

    Yes, I can see your perspective and maybe we're reading different subtitles, but for me, saying he wanted to give her the comfort of family (since she is technically an orphan without siblings at this point) is, for me, the same thing as saying, he wants TO BE her family.  Stating his intention without actually proposing.  One of the things YBW admired most about BY is the fact that she never let things like unjust laws stand in her way in the past... not when she cultivated that field that didn't belong to her town, not when they tried to hide the product of that field instead of submitting it for taes and not when she burned the storehouse to the ground.  Her courage in refusing to abide by blatantly unjust laws is one of the things that made her attractive to him; I think he even calls her the strongest woman he knows.  I, therefore, find it difficult to believe that she would let the unjust cultural mores of a Goryeo they are trying to overthrow control matters of her heart.  This is a woman who courageously acts on her heart and what she knows to be right.  And I don't see the connection with her brother, I know she mentions it, but I think it's an ecuse.  I do understand her not wanting to be a concubine; that is the only thing she said that makes any sense and fits with her character... she's in it for all or nothing.  Yes, perhaps YBW's older brother could have been a marriage partner for--Ms. Min?--but he didn't present himself, not that I'm aware of, so YBW in what I agree is an immature act of trying to "get back" at BY for refusing him, offers himself as a groom.  Anyway, that's how I see it...

    And, yes, as @valentvcd correctly points out below, what happens in the drama must reflect what actually happened in history...  I think the original question was whether YBW's intention in offering marriage with Ms. Min was a political move... my response was that it was and it wasn't, had BY agreed to marry him, stand by his side, allow him to be her family, whatever you think he meant with his offer, I do not believe he would have offered to marry into the Min family.  It is only because BY had just rejected him so definitively he saw a way to perhaps hurt her and do something to help his father and the cause.  Had BY accepted him, I don't think he would have made the offer and then we would have a drama that didn't fit the history...

     

    • Like 4
  6. Hey guys im kinda late following this drama, as im recently watching Ep10

    I would like to talk bout the EP15, Why Bang Won should marry other girl? Arent he loves Boon Yi? 

    Or perhaps he just fooling around her? what a painful to watch if they not endup together :(

     

    After all, Yi Bang-Won is a political animal. He has had a strong desire for power since he was a little kid. Do you remember the conversation between Hong In-Bang and Yi Bang-Won in the temple? Bang-Won can tolerate the psychological torture from Hong In-Bang, but Hong said that Bang-Won wouldn't be able to endure the powerless condition any longer. Bang-Won was also aware of it.

    I don't think anything can stop him. Even his love for Boon-Yi can't stop him from marrying Lady Min for political benefits. And Boon-Yi already knows it.

    Greetings, Friend,

    I'd like to offer a different perspective...  from my point of view YBW isn't marrying for political power, even though, by this marriage he acquires a powerful political ally in his wife-to-be and her family.  From my perspective, he is sacrificing his future happiness for his father's political future and the sake of the new Joseon.  Why do I say this?  First of all, he asks BY to marry him, tells her he has always loved her and probably always will (I'm paraphrasing, of course).  BY refuses him (dumb move but necessary for the story line) right about the time there arises this need for some political alliance with this family to strengthen his father's position in the Council.  DJD previously "taught" YBW the necessity for sacrifice to achieve some greater end when he was eplaining why it took so long to rescue him from the Tribunal.  To YBW, since the woman of his dreams (and heart) has outright rejected him and told him in no uncertain terms (paraphrasing again) that Hell could freeze over and she STILL wouldn't marry him because of the difference in their classes (pulling my hair out right about now)... he offers himself up as a marriage partner for this political alliance which will benefit his father and lay the foundation for a new Joseon.  Since he can't have what he wants, he decides to do what no one else in his family or the organization can do, and marry into the family.  His brothers are not of the right age to marry this girl and the other members of DJD's organization are not of the right social class to marry this young girl.  The only option to counter the bad guys is to offer himself up as a prospective marriage partner but this means he will never have the woman of his dreams since BY has also told him she will NEVER, EVER be a concubine, so this marriage means having to give up any hope of possessing the woman he has loved since childhood...  

    @valsava - (blowing kisses...)  Ciao, ciao Sunbae-nim (?)...  Great minds think alike, I guess, so we all end up here together...  

    • Like 2
  7. Greetings, All,

    I just marathoned the first 12 episodes of this amazing drama and have the last two to go and so I thought I'd take a look at what the "professionals" were saying about the drama in this forum to see if there is anything I missed.  I haven't read everything, yet, just the last few pages but I'm finding this drama is more about the development of the future King Taejong than it is about the relationships between the characters. For instance, the young YBW believes his father to be the "strongest man" until he sees him vulnerable; he believes DJD to be the "strongest man" when he sees him leading the protest outside the city gate and then he sees him subdued and exiled.  He finds the cave and comes to believe the author of the plan for a new Joseon is the "strongest man".  Like all young boys learning what it means to become a man, the young YBW is searching for the ideal man to emulate and, in the process, learns about military power, courage and strength of character from his father; he learns about dedication to a cause and the power of words and a charismatic leader watching DJD outside the city gate and he learns about vision and the power of ideas and strategic planning from his time in the cave.  With each "lesson" he learns the qualities necessary for leadership, that they each have their place and there is an order and a hierarchy.  On some sites, this drama is called "Root of the Throne" and I can see why it is called that.  The root of anything is not just its origin but it is the means by which its life is sustained so calling the drama "Root of the Throne" it seems to be saying that the throne of Joseon was sustained and nurtured by these things:  strength of character, courage, vision, dedication, military power, charismatic leadership and the power of ideas and the ability to articulate them and put them into effect.

    • Like 2
  8. @ceecile - "I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean why someone killed him in the drama. I meant storywise I understand why the writer chose to kill him off, that it wasn't just for shock value."

    Oh, sorry, I did misunderstand.  I thought you had some insight into who ordered the hit and why.  I don't know if I understand why the writer chose to kill Teacher off.  I can't see MS ordering this hit even after Teacher said he would protect the "cubs".  Evil Elder did this and I've said it over and again in this thread, he has lots of hands and deep pockets in that police department and I, for one, am becoming frustrated with these baddies who make the Seoul police look like Keystone Cops.  But I don't understand why EE ordered the hit.  Secretary of Death knows Jung Ho is Healer because he saw his face in that garage, so why kill Teacher?  For myself, I assumed Teacher had never really left Jung Ho and was hanging around watching and waiting for this day.  I also assumed he would eventually claim to be Healer to give Jung Ho the opportunity to start his life over and his parting message in the interrogation video confirms this.  I wonder who was the woman he loved... Detective Jo, perhaps? 

    Have a nice week!

  9. @ceecile - "Nah Teacher is dead. And yes it's really sad (though I didn't quite feel it until I saw JH's break down) but after watching episode 14 I completely understand why he was killed off..."

    Good Morning, friend.  Then will you share?  I only watched eps. 13 and 14 raw so I have no idea what was said.  I know, based on something I read in this thread, that once he realizes he's been poisoned, Teacher begins to spill the beans about Moon Shik but I think he would have kept quiet about everything as long as he was in police custody to try to protect Jung Ho so killing him seems unnecessary.  What I took from Teacher's death was remembering back to that scene in the junkyard where Jung Ho's Dad (I think) tells Moon Shik, who is sitting net to MH watching YS's Dad, that he needs to tell her how he feels about her or "it will destroy us all..."  Well, I guess he didn't have the courage to speak up and, in the end, MS's obsession for MH and his subsequent bedding with Evil Elder is killing them all and, I think, in the end will also have us mourning for Moon Ho since once he goes after his brother he will be getting too close for Evil Elder's comfort. 

    Just another thought that perhaps someone else in the thread came up with (you guys are moving way too fast for me to keep up), in Ep. 14 when MH tries to stop JH from going to confront MS, I'm not sure what was said but I had the definite impression that MH is trying to teach JH that "the pen is mightier than the sword" for lack of a better way to put it...  JH is all about brawn, about using his fists...  MH is all about revealing the truth and putting it out there for public scrutiny.  I think he wants to show JH that there is another way to fight, a better way to fight the bad guys.  Just a thought...

  10. @akumi99 - "I swear by all that is Holy that if the ending is a City Hunter ending, I'll start a riot and ban all action romcoms from my list, at least until it's finished airing and I can peak at the ending. I don't know if I can handle it...they could both just go to that island Healer is going to buy and live off the land and make adorable babies..."

    Amen, my friend, amen!  Stellar posts today.  I was waiting for someone to comment on the memory thing... not surprised its you.  Perhaps JH's desire for that private island two hours from the coast of Panama is a subconscious desire to return to the "Secret Secret Island" where he was with JA...  And perhaps JA's desire to be a hard-hitting investigative reporter like Arianna Fallacci and Moon Ho is a subconscious desire to emulate her parents.  Just want you to think about the following...  I don't think Moon Ho has the lack of moral fortitude to be his brother.  When he makes that comment in Ep. 12 about learning everything from MS, I think he's speaking from frustration, anger and guilt.  The worst thing he has done is tell Korean Detective Clouseau that Healer would be hanging around YS and he did that to protect her.  Revealing JA's and JH's true identity is probably the best way to protect them.  For some reason Evil Elder's Empire wants these kids quietly gone and that's why Moon Ho has to bring them back.  I may be wrong but I think when all comes to light, JA and JH will be the true owners of Jaeil News.  I think Moon Ho wanted to tell MH about YS first and for some reason she's unable to handle this truth and this I think is a flaw in the character--what mother would prefer that her daughter be dead than to wonder how she has lived without her mother all these years... no mother thinks that way.  This woman (MH) is so courageous and loving in so many ways--her reception of JH really touched me--but when it comes to the possibility of her own daughter being alive, she's like a bowl full of jelly.  Doesn't ring true.  But before MH causes yet more upheaval and trauma in YS's and MH's lives, he needs to make sure they can physically, emotionally and psychologically handle the truth... and this may be what he is doing, causing them to take the steps to unravel the mystery and find the truth slowly themselves rather than to just tell it to them straight out and cause perhaps yet more trauma in their lives...

    Great posts today, though.

  11. @akumi99 - Your analysis makes sense.  This is what I've been thinking... and that's why I love this drama... makes you think and then comes up with a scenario you haven't yet thought of...

    Moon Ho says he feels guilty to MH.  We know he used to babysit the kids.  For a while I've thought he was in charge of YS when something happened and she ended up missing and then reported as dead.  But I thought I also read somewhere about a car accident and--why was Moon Shik bloodied and why would Evil Elder offer the best medical care for MH.  Obviously he knew she was his soft spot so he must have done his homework.  Evil Elder had to have been behind it and this is what I've been thinking of recently... Why.  Why these reporters and why kill them off?  And why is Moon Shik keeping MH on a short leash.  How about, the original publication Healer became the basis for Jaeil News, or whatever Moon Shik is in charge of today.  Like maybe Evil Elder needed some way to manipulate the press on his rise to the top of the dung heap so he tried to kill off the three "owners" of that original gorilla news organization in an effort to take it over and so only MH remains alive of the original owners and, of course, JH and YS if they are found which is why the baddies don't want them found... at least not alive.  And how about all the corrupted cops on Evil Elder's payroll... There were more cops surrounding JH and putting him in an interrogation room than I've seen in the whole drama and the security clearance thing for his father's file--that takes clout.

    I thought MH covered well, pretending that JH wasn't the person she saw that night since she knew Moon Shik brought him there to confirm his identity.  His mother's words must have got through to her but, boy, I wouldn't want to play poker with her... that lady has some poker face...


  12. @akumi99 - "I do really think Moon Shik could be that evil. In the flashbacks he always resented Ji An...  She was the daughter of the man who had what he wanted, Myung Hee... (Ji Ahn) would be a reminder of her dead husband... At no point has he truly shown he's cared for another life other than Myung Hee's and occasionally his brother. I honestly think his own brother is expendable in his mind... I do think he's too far gone to be brought back."

    I think you're spot on, my insightful friend, and this is why Moon Shik will lose everything (and everyone) in the end...  Regarding your response to @valsava, I could be wrong but my understanding of the drama so far is that there was a car accident and as a result of that MH was paralyzed, YS was reported to her as dead and MS was injured and the promise of the best medical treatment for MH is what Evil Elder used to lure him to the dark side...  so it seems, to my mind, that Evil Elder must have been behind the accident, the murder of MH's husband and the framing/murder of JH's father.  But I agree, it looks like MS abandons YS at that rest stop when he finds her missing from the car.  He did that all himself...

    @sheza - "She may have to go through the angst of hating Jung Hoo because she thought Jung Ho's dad killed her father as probably reported in the old newspaper as she tries to find out more."

    I agree.  Seems Ahjumma is about to reveal Healer's identity to YS/JA and I'm with the people who think original Healer is about to confront the bad guys.  That detective is just worthless.  He sat in his car watching the bad guys assemble, perhaps watching JH's mother be kidnapped and did what... tried to catch Ahjumma?  What about confronting the bad guys or just calling 911 for backup.  Talk about having your priorities messed up.  I knew there had to be a reason Teacher came back and I figured it would be to eventually take the rap for JH but that Yo-Yo guy and Sleazy Secretary saw JH's face.  Hoping YS/JA finds JH before he bleeds to death, though. 

    Too much to catch up on...  You guys are moving too fast...

  13. @rrmski - "One more thing, that defective scares me. Even more than Elder and MS. His gaze and the way he likes to snoop around gives me a bad feeling."

    I'm with you, Chingu...  Ahjumma is great and that Detective gives me the creeps...  If I understood Ep. 11 raw, BS/JH/Healer gets into police archives and tries to dig up his father's cold case file and... its empty, which means... someone on the police force is in Evil Elder's pocket.

    @valsava - Regarding the hand-holding, my question is, as curious as YS is, I don't know HOW she managed to resist the urge to look...  Seems BS/JH/Healer was prepared, he took pains with his grooming the way one does before going on a date, so, I'm not sure if he was glad or sad when she didn't search him out but... what a gentleman... an escort home and everything.  Where do I find these guys, again?  :))

  14. Now watching Ep. 11 raw and... boy I didn't see that coming... Healer revealing himself to Moon Ho... but I have to confess to absolutely loving how the relationship between them is budding and the fact that they now have each other--and YS--to hold on to...  they are no longer alone...  Also love how YS seems to be getting jealous of all the time the boys spend together... but from the clips for Ep. 12, it looks like shortly YS will know everything...


  15. juzluvpink said:

    Moon Ho wants to make use of Healer and Healer agrees. So my take is that Moon Ho wants to use Healer to hook onto Elder and Healer will take this opportunity to dig up dirt on Elder and also KMS. But if Moon Ho does not know that SJH is the son, how will Moon Ho be able to trust Healer?

    Good morning, Friend...

    Did this happen somewhere in the drama or is this what you think will happen in the future?  For my part, while there may be speculation on Moon Ho and Young Shin's part, I think the person who will figure out that Healer is Seo Jung Hoo will be Moon Sik and Moon Ho finds out indirectly either from his sister-in-law or because/after/when that Slimy Secretary goes after him.  That detective, once he checks his e-mail, will also figure it out.  The question is, who figures it out definitively first.  I also think the phone thing can be easily explained away.  YS told BS that she lost the phone on the roof of that building.  All BS has to do is say he went to find it for her and since he has already declared his feelings for her, it will make complete sense (at least to me) that the guy who is trying to win her affections will go in search of something that has so much sentimental value for her.  I don't think the phone will be the key to revealing Healer's identity.  I think it will be YS's mother/Moon Sik since she has seen his face and since Moon Sik is already suspicious.  Evil Elder has said elsewhere that Moon Ho has been after him/on his heels for a long time but just hasn't uncovered his identity which is why that guy was thrown off the train--he apparently had video footage showing Evil Elder taken in LA doing something evil and Moon Ho was trying to get that tape.  Ultimately, this drama is about Moon Ho trying to uncover the identity of Evil Elder and take him down and I think this is all related to that group of five... that Moon Ho believes Evil Elder corrupted his brother and is responsible for the dismemberment of that group and the death, pain and misery that followed and his own being "stuck in time" unable to move on because the truth has not yet been revealed.

    In the end, Healer is going to have to be a group effort.  Its going to take our three heros, the staff at Some Day news, Ahjumma, Teacher and probably the girl-Healer-wannabe and the former gangsters at Dad's coffee shop to take down Evil Elder's Empire.  That's my guess, anyway.

    @maddymappo - Good Morning MaddyMappo...  Regarding Teacher's travels... you know, I'm thinking Teacher said he went to the South Pacific but in fact we don't really know that is the case.  He could just as easily have been hanging around Seoul watching out for Jung Hoo behind the scenes.  Also, you know, boys become men when they go on that quest alone and slay the dragon.  Since Teacher couldn't very well kick Jung Hoo out, he left so Jung Hoo would have to figure it out and become the man he is today and I think he did the right thing.  Take it from me... my parents didn't push my nephews out when they should have and now I'm stuck with two almost-30-year old guys who have no qualms about staying in bed until Noon so I'm thinking of doing a Teacher--leaving to force them to do the right thing and for my own sanity.

    Everyone - Have a great weekend in anticipation of Healer Ep. 11....


  16. @azzurri - Great character analysis.  My interest is first and foremost the story.  I'm not so familiar with the actors.  But I agree with your assessment here.  That Ahjumma is a trip, a very versatile actress.  You usually see these "colorful" characters played by men but in this drama, perhaps because its written by a woman, the colorful character is a woman...  And you can see a difference between the Moon Ho character and the Jung Hoo character... one eudes maturity, confidence, intelligence and a calm courage, the other youthfulness, not so sure of himself, intelligent and athletic and full of bravado.  If anything, what stands out to me is how athletic the Jung Hoo actor is.  It looks like he does his own stunts so he must be part gymnast, part long-distance runner and part martial arts epert.  All I want to add is that its really a shame that Hollywood actors make way too much money for looking good while reading lines that others write for them while these actors earn far less the hard way.  My opinion.

    @sia3 - Wonderful!  That's it.  I, myself, wondered whether Min Joo could mean something other than a person's name but because I've heard it as a name I thought maybe it was some personification of something but what you're saying makes sense, so they were calling out for "democratization of the press" so it could do what the free press is supposed to do, shed light and raise awareness of government's and society's failings.  Thank you.


  17. @carmens - "why in  a drama that has the title Healer, there is a character named Healer, which is present from the very beginning of  broadcasting, in fact the story is not about the Healer but about the mission of the press and the journalist, to be the healer of community?"

    Greetings - For what its worth, here's what I think.  I wondered the same thing you did until I read Dramabeans' review of Ep. 10 in which they translate the subtitle of the "Healer" publication Bong Soo finds in Min Ho's apartment but which wasn't translated in the subbed episode I watched.  According to DB, the subtitle of the magazine reads "the media eists to diagnose and heal this society's pains" so the initial Healer is a metaphor for the media, but a free, unbiased and courageous media unencumbered by the influence of money and power.  In Ep. 1, the group was broadcasting and publishing illegally because, apparently at that time, the media in Korea was not free but a government mouthpiece, they make reference to more than 2,000 journalists, copywriters and editors being fired by the current President. They were calling for "that kid (Min Joo)" who right now I'm thinking is a personification of some courageous person who would bring about freedom of the press or a call for more aspiring journalists to join their mission.  When they are at the table and Moon Ho takes their picture, they call for Min Joo and then they say that they are all Min Joo.  That group seems to have been a youthful, completely idealistic group of friends and aspiring journalists and I'm guessing what we haven't seen yet is what happens to break them apart. 

    Whatever it is that breaks the group apart results in Teacher going to prison, JH's and YS's fathers dying, YS becoming an orphan, JH becoming fatherless, then motherless, then also an orphan and YS's mother ending up in that wheelchair and dependent on Moon Shik.  Its worth noting that in that initial group, Moon Shik isn't a journalist, he's driving the truck.  Each of the journalists in the group ends up dead or close to death. 

    What we're seeing in present day isn't what Healer was but what Healer became when it went underground and I talked about this at length above.  If the goal of that early group of journalists was to "epose and heal society's pains" then the person doing that in present day is Moon Ho.  So Teacher and Detective Jo seemed to have kept the codename Healer (and so I don't understand why this didn't ring a bell with Moon Shik, but I digress) and over time the role of Healer became different.  Again, there is a lot of information missing so we can't tell why Healer transformed from a champion for truth to someone who "acquires" information without regard for ethics (JH is very clear about this point when describing who he is and what he does) for the right fee.  So there is a lot of corruption and co-opting that has gone on here and I'm guessing the rest of the drama will be about eposing what happened and healing that and everyone involved in the process. 

    In Ep. 1 Moon Ho talks about being stuck in the past.  In Ep. 10 Teacher tells JH that there was a sith member of the group, everyone's little brother and Ji Ahn's oppa.  Because of this, I think the dismemberment of the group had a significant impact on Moon Ho.  So significant that all the unrealized dreams of those three in the back of the truck are being realized in the little brother.  Look at it this way, I read somewhere that this drama is supposed to span three generations.  In the present day, Moon Ho is the three journalists in the back of the truck and Jung Hoo is the guy on the bike and Young Shin appears to be the person Moon Ho is grooming to be the net generation journalist.

    I'm finding Healer to be an incredibly smart and well-thought-out story even apart from the eye candy.

    @namyo - "what I'm afraid is that one of our leads might get hurt..."

    I'm afraid you're right.  First and foremost this is a hero epic with a really upright and idealistic hero trying to take down an incredibly evil, powerfully entrenched bad guy and avenge his hyungs.  And the hero usually ends up dying in those stories, or I should say, ends up sacrificing himself, to take down the bad guy.

    @maddymappo - "The screen writer  Song Ji-Na has her roots in journalism.  This is such a great drama. So many layers!"

    Happy New Year, my friend...  See the above.  "Healer" was the title of the underground publication that Jung Hoo finds in Moon Ho's apartment.  The subtitle of that publication said, according to Dramabeans, "the media eists to epose and heal society's pain".  So the initial Healer is the media that eposes and heals... Today, for the first time since I started watching dramas, I actually looked up the writer's bio because I was so impressed with Ep. 10.  I do have to say, however, that unfortunately a lot is getting lost in translation.  I usually read the Dramabeans review before I watch the drama online because those ladies don't miss a thing and, in today's case, and for me, that translation of the subtitle of the Healer publication that wasn't translated online is what made the pieces start coming together in my mind. 



  18. Greetings.  I've been reading this thread for a while but had nothing to say until today having watched Ep. 10 with subtitles, and the translation from Dramabeans of the subtitle of the Healer booklet that Bong Soo finds in Moon Ho's apartment--"the media eists to diagnose and heal this society's pains"--

    If this is the case, then isn't Moon Ho the real Healer, or rather, aren't there several different healers in this drama (I'll get to that in a minute)...  If the original Healer was the underground publication intended to put the truth out there to heal society's ills, then isn't that eactly what Moon Ho is doing and isn't that why he has such integrity as a reporter.  Also, I now "get" what the kids were broadcasting from the back of that truck as it was speeding down the alleyways looking for "him" or "the kid" as they called him, they were looking for the Healer, that person who would courageously put the truth of society's ills out there for all to see and begin to heal.

    It seems the original Healer dream got co-opted by Evil Elder and corrupted by Moon Shik's obsession with his friends' wife so it went underground, preserved by the Teacher and Detective Jo--and I'm wondering what her connection to the original team is, like was she investigating the death of Bong Soo's Dad or is she the person who sent Teacher to prison?  But she seems to have long history and familiarity with this group and its past.

    But I digress...  So the Healer goes underground and here the metaphors abound.  The purpose of the media is to bring to light, to epose, the things others would like to keep hidden.  The image of going underground is the opposite, shedding no light, keeping things hidden and the role of the Healer transforms from a hero for truth to a "night courier" with no ethical standards ecept money.  Oh how the mighty have fallen!  As Bong Soo so aptly put it, (with Healer going underground) his father becomes a murderer and he becomes a thief.

    And this is why there is and are so many opportunities for a Healer in this drama.  Before this group can heal society, it must first heal itself.  The death's of Young Shin's father and Bong Soo's father and the aftermath need to be brought to light and dealt with and I think this is where Moon Ho is trying to go and where his brother is determined he will not go.  If not for Teacher, who knows where young Jung Hoo would have ended up.  It was teacher who raised him to adulthood and trained him and this is a kind of healing.  What is Ahjumma's role in all this?  Is she rebelling against some injustice in the legal system that she thinks needs to be healed?  And, obviously, Jung Hoo and Young Shin both need to be healed of their pasts, their loneliness, their apparent lack of roots and, of course, the evil perpetrated on them by, I think, Evil Elder. 

    Anyway, it seems to me the key here is what Moon Ho appears to be after, solving the mystery of what happened to that original Healer group and when and how and why... and isn't that what good reporting is all about....

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