[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤

[lisafransisca]

33 minutes ago, homura said:

 

by Joseon-era people, by modern-day Korean historians. by everybody living in Korea. No Koreans thinks he is a tyrant. On the contrary, he is evaluated as the best ruler for his times. 

 

Thank you very much.

[nevill]

2 minutes ago, homura said:

By your definition

dictionary definition absolute ruler is a tyrant - synonymous 

when i say tyrant i dont mean the tyranny that is now referred to in order to describe how even a modern person act - like you describe your boss 

but the original meaning of a tyrant = absolute ruler and by that the meaning elimination of all opposition

and even the ppl if they showed opposition and yes ALL kings who rule as absolute rulers are tyrant by definition - dictionary wise 

[lisafransisca]

3 minutes ago, nevill said:

but this is what the writers chose to show us as the ending as a cliffhanger - what the writers choose LBW to say is that he will lose his own power also we know that the drama will show him becoming a tyrant absolute ruler who eliminate all his opposition and by making LBW think of himself first they signal the audience 

this is it this is the moment it all began  

 

I think you and I have different interpretation on the last scene. Yes, this is the beginning of his moving to the "dark side", but this is not the exact moment or point where he thought only about himself and nothing about his family. In contrast, he thought about JDJ taking the political power from the whole royal families and making the king as the flower. Of course the writers will have to show us his moving to the dark side, but not in all-of-sudden change caused by that single conversation or scene. It's the character development they are working here.

You also said that "LBW will be a tyrant and i think that the only reason or mostly the reason he was good to his citizens was bc he wanted to be remembered as a good king in history." I remember that LBW told Poeun that he didn't care about history or what his name or honor would be remembered in history. It's Poeun who wants to make a good name.

[lisafransisca]

On 1/7/2016 at 8:34 PM, zenya22 said:

I respectfully do not agree, for me, it is actually going to where it should be going and the drama is 50 episodes. Already is shown the beginnings of a change. This drama is not as simple as BW vs JDJ as it is a prequel to TWDR and that was so layered psychological thriller and so is this. Like TWDR this is not purely a historical drama. It is a combination of fiction and fact. From the beginning of the drama there were fascinating characters such as the villains GTM, HIB and the wily YIG who did their baddy roles with flair and the drama did not lose it's basic story that of BW and JDJ, actually they enhanced their story. In fact those characters made us see the growth of the goody characters especially the growth and development of BW. The last episodes emphasized that while keeping us entertained. I don't see how JDJ and LBW characters are being wasted. If what you really looking for is to see BW become "dark" then the last 2 episodes already showed that because the person who really will show that is JMJ. He is the important character who is causing the start of the break-up of the BW/JJDJ fan-to idol love affair. The in depth characters of both especially BW for me have been thoroughly dissected, the complexity of the man from the cause and effects of his thoughts and actions, his beliefs about justice, his philosophy of the means justifies the end, his brilliance as a tactician, decisiveness and charisma, his capacity to fall in love, his benevolence and acceptance of the people belonging to the class lower than his such as his relationship with MH but most of all the ability to know himself. The insights to the depths and the opposing sides of himself, the knowledge of the "worm" in his heart. The characters of HIB, Haryun and BY are the ones to show the layered sides of him. Very few people are brave enough to see themselves but BW we know is unafraid. He asks BY that if he ever let the "worm" consume him to get the worm to spit him out then kill him.Now, we shall see how that works out.

As for JDJ, we see how his fan to idol affair with JMJ and his Confucian beliefs in honor, benevolence and peaceable engagements are clouding his judgements. He created and designed the birthing of a new country but he cannot see that JMJ's stubborn attachment to Goryeo will not change and refuses to believe it when JMJ tells him he will not change his mind. That desire to do what is right especially with his scholar buddies shorts him and makes him vulnerable to their manipulations such as Haryun. He is a brilliant, erudite scholar, philosopher and policy maker but he is not so good in reading people. BW on the other hand is.In this drama, JDJ somehow underestimates his enemies. BW reads him but JDJ does not read BW as well as HIB or Haryun does. JDJ and YSG are much alike in their mindsets I think.

 

Thank you very much for your deep thoughts. I have restored my faith in the drama. What made me frustrate before was my feeling that it was starting to stretch itself a little thin by having so many characters on so many unrelated tasks. However, the show proved me wrong. I appreciate your opinion.

[nevill]

11 minutes ago, lisafransisca said:

I think you and I have different interpretation on the last scene.

i treat that scene as i do any written script the interpretation is in accordance to the words we were given - that how you always analyze a written text, no?

 

11 minutes ago, lisafransisca said:

You also said that "LBW will be a tyrant and i think that the only reason or mostly the reason he was good to his citizens was bc he wanted to be remembered as a good king in history." I remember that LBW told Poeun that he didn't care about history or what his name or honor would be remembered in history. It's Poeun who wants to make a good name.

this phrase was NOT in reference to LBW in the drama but how i really see LBW as the king in history  - not drama wise  

[Guest rainmoon]

credit sbsnow_insta

 

 

 

[Darrkn3ss]

Wpw @ Sukbin your analysis  blew me away because it's exactly what I thought when I actually watched Tree deep with deep roots. When everyone was jeering at King Taejong, I always trying to explain his actions the way you did. So Bravo Shingu.  It's nice to see that there is someone else out there that understand that Human being are multilayered being so there cannot be a black and white politic. 

[bodashiri]

1 hour ago, nevill said:

thanx @homura i meant in court life does the brother of a king for example hold much power without killing anyone (in goryeo bc this is what LBW would think of in that situation)

i mean the hierarchy of the power given to the royal family are all the members are so powerful?

if LBW had become just a royal family member in an absolute king power with ministers as advisers and not holding all the power would he as a brother of th king be more powerful than a minister or less or the same 

would he have the same power of the king? 

 

I don't know what you are talking about. In Goryeo? King's brothers holding much power? Of course.

Wang Geon, the founder of Goryeo dynasty, had accepted as many queens as possible from each noble clans in an effort to unify the kingdom. As a result, however, dog-eat-dog struggles for power took place among his sons sponsored by each noble clans. To strengthen their power, even some princes married their half sisters. I remember I mentioned about early Goryeo royalty‘s incestuous marriage on this forum.

To my surprise, after that, SBS announced their new Sageuk drama would be set in this time period, starring IU and Yi Joon-Ki (Bu Bu Jing Xin Remake)
 
One example. King Gyeongjong, the 5th ruler of Goryeo, appointed his cousin (and he is also his wife's brother) as his successor in his dying bed, to prevent his baby son from being killed by the cousin.

 

[nevill]

1 minute ago, homura said:

 

I don't know what you are talking about. In Goryeo? King's brothers holding much power? Of course.

Wang Geon, the founder of Goryeo dynasty, had accepted as many queens as possible from each noble clans in an effort to unify the kingdom. As a result, however, dog-eat-dog struggles for power took place among his sons sponsored by each noble clans. To strengthen their power, even some princes married their half sisters.

I remember I mentioned about early Goryeo royalty‘s incestuous marriage on this forum. To my surprise, after that, SBS announced their new Sageuk drama will be set in this time period, starring IU and Yi Joon-Ki (Bu Bu Jing Xin Remake)
 
One example. King Gyeongjong, the 5th ruler of Goryeo, appointed his cousin (and he is also his wife's brother) as his successor in his dying bed, to prevent his baby son from being killed.

 

sothey took part in the political life?

im trying to understand why would LBW in the drama would think he has so much power by association - he was hoping tp have power to accomplish his dream and yet at that point in the drama he has no future as a king only as a brother of one

so im asking is his mentioning of losing power of decision making as a royak family but not a king was relevant in history 

were the family members had influence on political decision making - sorry i cant explain correctly what i mean

hope now you understand what i mean 

[bodashiri]

At this moment in the drama, Bang-Won's dream is not kingship. By Goryeo‘s standard, the eldest brother Bang-Woo should be named as the successor. He can't even dream of it. He just wanted to become a politician to make people smile. 

However, Sambong told Poeun he will prohibit any royalty (except for King and Crown prince) from taking part in politics to prevent corruption, which means Bang-Won can't become a politician in the future. He realizes what he has done to found a new country means nothing other than to become a helpless loyalty like a decoration flower. That's what he felt at the end of ep 30.

As I said in the previous post, the law to prohibit royalty from being a government official went into effect in the late 15th century (about a hundred years after Yi Bang-Won's reign) During Goryeo period, royalty could participate in politics and freely became government officials.

 

[nevill]

6 minutes ago, homura said:

At this moment in the drama, Bang-Won's dream is not kingship. By Goryeo‘s standard, the eldest brother Bang-Woo should be named as the successor. He can't even dream of it. He just wanted to become a politician to make people smile. 

thanx @homurawell agree to disagree

but reading the the text as is i disagree  - if we were to be tested and to analyze the text as is 

[bodashiri]

Actually, Jung Do-Jeon really did it. He didn't recognize Bang-Won's contribution and eliminated Bang-Won's name from the list of Joseon's founding contributors. It must be a great shock to Bang-Won. Since Bang-Seok was established as Crown prince, Bang-Won couldn't participate in politics for about 6 years. Meanwhile, Bang-Won had to go to Ming China as a hostage instead of prime minister Jung Do-Jeon who caused a diplomatic conflict between the two countries. Finally, Jung Do-Jeon took away Bang-Won's personal property in the Northeast region and demolished his private armies. That triggered the first strife of Princes in 1398.

What I want to say here is... It's not like black and white. Sambong was evil and Bang-Won was right?  No way. It was the matter of to kill or to be killed. This is the politics.

[nevill]

4 minutes ago, homura said:

Jung Do-Jeon who caused a diplomatic conflict between the two countries

wasnt JDJ  originally against china? did he create the conflict on purpose

we dont really have china in all of this but for some reason i got the feeling that he did not want china to interfere in domestic politics and decisions 

[nevill]

8 minutes ago, homura said:

Actually, Jung Do-Jeon really did it. He didn't recognize Bang-Won's contribution and eliminated Bang-Won's name from the list of Joseon's founding contributors.

this is real history, right? 

so did LBW help in more than just aiding his father was he really as it is portrayed in the drama part of the ideal of a new Joseon?

[bodashiri]

The annals of the Joseon dynasty recorded " Among Yi Seong-Gye's sons, Yi Bang-Won is the best contributor to the foundaton of Joseon." When Bang-Won killed Jung Mong-Joo, Jung Do-Jeon and Jo Joon, Nam Eun were all sent into exile by Jung Mong-Joo so they couldn't do anything to help Yi Seong-Gye. It was Yi Bang-Won who dirtied his hands to escape from their biggest crisis and made it possible to found Joseon.

Yes, Jung Do-Jeon hate China's interference. He insisted on Liadong expedition, like General Choi Young did, and took away the private armies of nobility and royalty.

[nevill]

40 minutes ago, homura said:

The annals of the Joseon dynasty recorded " Among Yi Seong-Gye's sons, Yi Bang-Won is the best contributor to the foundaton of Joseon." When Bang-Won killed Jung Mong-Joo, Jung Do-Jeon and Jo Joon, Nam Eun were all sent into exile by Jung Mong-Joo so they couldn't do anything to help Yi Seong-Gye. It was Yi Bang-Won who dirtied his hands to escape from their biggest crisis and made it possible to found Joseon.

is this something we are about to see or will be ignored in the drama?

1 minute ago, nevill said:

When Bang-Won killed Jung Mong-Joo, Jung Do-Jeon and Jo Joon, Nam Eun were all sent into exile by Jung Mong-Joo so they couldn't do anything to help Yi Seong-Gye

?

[nevill]

BTS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[40somethingahjumma]

The genius of this show lies in its ability to create a political thriller out of known history. I think too that the show demonstrates in fairly clear terms in what manner Goryeo was limping all the way to the morgue and why to a large degree, a new regime was needed. Another rival conspiracy seems to be emerging from the shadows which will ensure that our known conspirators will have no easy path to success.

A sense of dread looms large as Bang Won edges closer to his "destined" future role. Knowing what he will become and what he will do to consolidate the Joseon dynasty, it's hard to watch. But is fascinating to see how the events in his early life will have an impact in his development as a King. 

Post Ep. 20 reflections:

General Choi, a royalist at heart, valiantly but uselessly attempts to rebuild Goryeo while dragging along a king who has no interest in ruling for the citizenry. A conviction politician whose convictions don't involve the good of the people but the glory of Goryeo. It's as if our guys got rid of one lot of robber barons to only come up with a reckless nationalistic ideologue.

I see parallels in this with modern events. It's being played out on political stages around the world. I doubt the eternal conflict between "my good" and "your good" will ever end. Meanwhile ordinary people become the casualty.

[earthna30]

Thanks @homura for posting the interview with Hong Dae Hong. Ugh. I'm so conflicted! I still think that he's connected to Nameless in a way but omg the actor's interview was so adorable! I'm seriously wavering right now.

[bodashiri]

8 hours ago, nevill said:

is this something we are about to see or will be ignored in the drama?

?

 

We are about to see that. In 1392, Yi Seong-Gye was wounded. Jung Mong-Joo didn't miss the opportunity and sent those 3 men (Jung Do-Jeon, Jo Joon, Nam Eun) into exile. So, they couldn't do anything to help Yi Seong-Gye. The revolution plan was about to collapse and all of them were in crisis to be killed by Jung Mong-Joo. At that moment, Yi Bang-Won showed up and killed Jung Mong-Joo, which saved his father and the 3 colleagues and made it possible to found Joseon.  However, his move earned hatred of his father because Jung Mong Joo was Yi Seong-Gye's close friend even though they were political enemies.