[Drama 2015-2016] Six Flying Dragons 육룡이 나르샤

[nevill]

 

 

 

 

 

[SukBin]

1 hour ago, zenya22 said:

@SukBinSince I was the one who wrote this recall of his dream of politics I want to address this. i have no idea whom you are writing to. Please reply directly to whom you are having a discussion with. Who are You saying "mislead You" because no where in what I wrote about the scene was said about what you wrote above. If this was meant to be a discussion with someone please address it to that "you" directly. Thank you.

 

I was talking with nevill and i have quoted nevill, kindly dont start taking sentences from someone else conversations and start getting paranoid......

When I quote someone and reply it is obvious i am adressing them and i do not understand how you can even get any other idea........!!!!

[nevill]

some cute BTS of YAI & SSK - hard being  ninja

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theonlyone88]

3 hours ago, nevill said:

you gave specific examples of countries that had a major change in politics

china became prosperous only after Mao was killed (died he wasnt killed -sorry) and new less strict reforms were made and we know that they are in a crisis now if you dont have the freedom to think you will be wary of inventing things which is what the world is going for 

Singapore was a very poor country and did have an amazing change which is always when you go from one thought  to another and all their economy was put towards developing

the thing which is important is can they keep it up

and the only examples we have of stable economic and happy ppl are of Europe when they have been stable for the longest and are the most social countries 

my whole family except me are economists  and it is the first time i hear that to prosper you need half tyranny and believe youd be bord in our family dinners since they talk economics a lot and again this is a mater of opinion in our case 

economic studies show that freedom of thought and the more free countries have a more long term stable economy the test is which economy can sustain a number of economy crisis without going bankrupted 

Be clear that in the examples I quoted, I stated the 70s-90s period with leaders like Park Chung Hee, Lee Kuan Yew, Deng  the studies I cited are scholarly articles of meta-analysis done by other people which found that the average growth in  authoritarian countries were surprisingly higher than democratic ones which read in university but since your family members are economists, you may know better. My entire basis is based on the fact that Goryeo in this case is a country essentially in ruins not developed countries e.g Europe, the saying also goes that too many cooks spoil the broth, and as I mentioned JDJ was also not even proposing a democracy, it was also essentially a dictatorship of a few with civil service exams essentially useless as only nobles usually participate with a few commoners and there are the ones becoming the top officials, thus I am not sure what you are contesting actually. It is important to recognise that democracy while it is overall the best system compared to the rest, it also has obvious shortcomings and not necessarily very successful in all circumstances due to the red tape involved in following democratic procedures and election gaming by elected representives thus it is not a system you will want in rebuilding a country where time is of the essence. That is the reason why leaders in history like Lincoln, Roosevelt, Lee Kuan Yew, Churchill and many others are admired for their role. This will be my last post of the topic as I do not want to get into a political debate here, we can agree to disagree.

[zenya22]

1 minute ago, SukBin said:

I hate that you are ready to tag me "Bang Won Lover" just because I stated an argument in favor of historical personality.... its like saying yeah  is a irrational bliondly supporting lover.... and you seem to take offense of my use of "people" word..... but   I dont know why are you taking it as an offense to you personally..... 

The use of "People" term is addressed for General Viewers /People .... and it is my wish to address them... and so i did .... if i want to address someone personally i will quote them as you can see in my earlier posts i did ..... thats up to me..... kindly do not start setting guidelines to how i may express myself here... if you have any objections take it up with Admin people...... sorry but not sorry.... i find your post offensive to me personally......

I am not taking it as an offense believe me, and I am not taking it personally what for, no reason to do so. But since you are saying the people and no one knows who the people are you are talking about, I thought it would be good to be specific since this is a discussion forum because the people you are talking about may not exist or if they exist those people could explain their side since you are talking or assuming that what you are saying in your post is what the people mean which may not be. It was just a suggestion which I thought would facilitate a good and hearty discussion. I don't need to go to admin since like you said it is your preference and prerogative  to address and use "the people" in your post. So be it.

I apologize for saying you are a Bang Won lover, you are right that was a bad use of wording and assumption on my part. Example of making assumptions of what others think. 

[zenya22]

37 minutes ago, SukBin said:

I was talking with nevill and i have quoted nevill, kindly dont start taking sentences from someone else conversations and start getting paranoid......

When I quote someone and reply it is obvious i am adressing them and i do not understand how you can even get any other idea........!!!!

I was not getting paranoid, just did not see the quote or whom it was quoted to.

[nevill]

2 minutes ago, theonlyone88 said:

Be clear that in the examples I quoted, I stated the 70s-90s period with leaders like Park Chung Hee, Lee Kuan Yew, Deng  the studies I cited are scholarly articles of meta-analysis done by other people which found that the average growth in  authoritarian countries were surprisingly higher than democratic ones which read in university but since your family members are economists, you may know better. My entire basis is based on the fact that Goryeo in this case is a country essentially in ruins not developed countries e.g Europe, the saying also goes that too many cooks spoil the broth, and as I mentioned JDJ was also not even proposing a democracy, it was also essentially a dictatorship of a few with civil service exams essentially useless as only nobles usually participate with a few commoners and there are the ones becoming the top officials, thus I am not sure what you are contesting actually. It is important to recognise that democracy while it is overall the best system compared to the rest, it also has obvious shortcomings and not necessarily very successful in all circumstances due to the red tape involved in following democratic procedures and election gaming by elected representives thus it is not a system you will want in rebuilding a country where time is of the essence. That is the reason why leaders in history like Lincoln, Roosevelt, Lee Kuan Yew, Churchill and many others are admired for their role. This will be my last post of the topic as I do not want to get into a political debate here, we can agree to disagree.

what i meant that the boost is temporary in those countries

academic studies have shown that countries ruled by tyrant the development is all at once but then the country become stagnant  any emphasis on economy would boost the country its not the tyranny its where the country funds are going to but tyrannical country in order to keep their government eliminate criticism usually in a frighting way so ppl would be careful ppl who aer careful to think create less and the country become stagnant  

although were talking modern after WW2 most of europe was in shatters but still they have come out strong and if you only compare east and west of berlin - i think no better example of a country under totalitarian ruling and a country under liberal ruling

also today when ac country growth is being compared it is not only its GDP but also the well being of the citizens for example high GDP country with also high suicide rate will be lower on the scale 

with china usually there are alot of problems getting reliable information which would be stated in such surveys and your example prove my point about the 70 they didnt progress bc of tyranny but bc the tyranny was reduced if it was reduced even more they would have bc even more powerful but again we are not talking only economics here

JDJ was about improving the RIGHTS of ppl not just the condition 

democracy have trouble as you rightly so stated and they do use one single all powerful person to do a specific job but democracy protects us in making such a person a temporary unlike a king and his descendants 

OOT although i love his writing i most definitely dont admire Churchill  

 

[bodashiri]

I don't have any intention to interfere with your discussion. But, one thing I should mention here.

Yi Bang-Won has never been regarded as a tyrant. He was cruel and ruthless to the powerful (nobles, Sadeabu), but kind and generous to the weak (commoners, lower class).

[orez]

2 hours ago, nevill said:

script wise there in NO sign that LBW would become a king except history which is not already known to the characters they dont know the future 

 

But according to JDJ plan, LBW's father will be king, and then LBW will be a prince, royalty.

And in the last episode LBW hear that the royal family (not only the king but the whole royal family) will not be permited to be in politic, which is LBW dream.

So of course he will be upset he dosn't need to think himself like the futur king to be upset about this plan. 

 

 

[nevill]

4 minutes ago, homura said:

I don't have any intention to interfere with your discusstion. But, one thing I should mention here.

Yi Bang-Won has never been never regarded as a tyrant. He was cruel and ruthless to the powerful (nobles, Sadeabu), but kind and generous to the weak (commoners, lower class).

never regarded as a tyrant by whom? a tyrant is an absolute ruler by definition the negative meaning was given later in regard to those tyrant behavior 

a king by definition is a tyrant and if he eliminated his opposition he is a cruel tyrant 

absolute ruler = tyrant - synonymous 

the other meanings came after 

[bodashiri]

24 minutes ago, nevill said:

never regarded as a tyrant by whom? a tyrant is an absolute ruler by definition the negative meaning was given later in regard to those tyrant behavior 

a king by definition is a tyrant and if he eliminated his opposition he is a cruel tyrant 

absolute ruler = tyrant - synonymous 

the other meanings came after 

 

by Joseon-era people, by modern-day Korean historians. by everybody living in Korea. No Koreans thinks he is a tyrant. On the contrary, he is evaluated as the best ruler for his times. 

 

[nevill]

23 minutes ago, orez said:

 

But according to JDJ plan, LBW's father will be king, and then LBW will be a prince, royalty.

And in the last episode LBW hear that the royal family (not only the king but the whole royal family) will not be permited to be in politic, which is LBW dream.

So of course he will be upset he dosn't need to think himself like the futur king to be upset about this plan. 

 

 

exactly LBW first thought sshould have been of his father being afraid that his father would become a "flower" i dont think royal family aside the king and the immediate crown prince had that much power - again at this point in the drama LBW has no hope of becoming a king unless in his head

@homura can you please help clarify if the rest of the royal family aside of the king and his immediate crown prince had such power that could threaten the ministers? 

[nevill]

7 minutes ago, homura said:

 

by Joseon-era people, by modern-day Korean historians. by everybody living in Korea. No Koreans thinks he is a tyrant. On the contrary, he is evaluated as the best ruler for his times. 

 

ok not stepping on any toes koreans are very protective of their kings ergo the turmoil BY made but dictionary\definition wise he is

not how the ppl see him but how he fits the description of what is a tyrant=absolute ruler he is

he made progress he improved conditions but everything was conditioned on absolute submissiveness this is a tyrant even if he didnt butcher his ppl we can only be sure that they didnt give him cause to do so 

are you telling me that if a revolt of the ppl would have happened he would have given his throne you know him better can you honestly say that?  

[bodashiri]

15 minutes ago, nevill said:

 

@homura can you please help clarify if the rest of the royal family aside of the king and his immediate crown prince had such power that could threaten the ministers? 

 

Grand Prince Suyang (수양대군 首陽大君, 1397~1450), the second son of King Sejong the Great (Yi Bang-Won's grandson), usurped his little nephew's throne and became King Sejo, the 7th ruler of Joseon dynasty. Some of you may know him as the heroine's father in Princess' Man (KBS 2011). He killed his brothers and hundreds of ministers to justify his kingship, including the young scholars like Seong Sam-Moon and Park Paeng-Nyeon in TWDR. It was around late 15th century that all the royal family except for king and crown prince were prohibited from getting the government posts.

 

[yoominion]

Not sure if anyone posted this, DS <3 YH BTS <3

http://tvcast.naver.com/v/693407

Facebook vid link for those who can't watch it on naver

https://www.facebook.com/JoonMiVietNam/videos/550024331842141/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video&theater

[lisafransisca]

On 1/11/2016 at 4:36 AM, homura said:

Ratings (Neilsen)
Ep 25     Nationwide 13.4% (-0.3)     Seoul 15.1% (-0.3)
Ep 26     Nationwide 13.8% (+0.4)    Seoul 15.9% (+0.8)
Ep 27     Nationwide 14.6% (+0.8)    Seoul 16.6% (+0.7)
Ep 28     Nationwide 13.7% (-0.9)     Seoul 15.8% (-0.8)
Ep 29     Nationwide 15.1% (+1.4)     Seoul 16.8% (+1.0)

 

Thank God it set new record as the story is back on the right track.

[nevill]

2 minutes ago, homura said:

 

Grand Prince Suyang (수양대군 首陽大君, 1397~1450), the second son of King Sejong the Great (Yi Bang-Won's grandson), usurped his little nephew's throne and became King Sejo, the 7th ruler of Joseon dynasty. Some of you may know him as the heroine's father in Princess' Man (KBS 2011). He killed his brothers and hundreds of ministers to justify his kingship, including the young scholars like Seong Sam-Moon and Park Paeng-Nyeon in TWDR. It was around late 14th century that all the royal family except for king and crown prince were prohibited from getting the government posts.

 

thanx @homura i meant in court life does the brother of a king for example hold much power without killing anyone (in goryeo bc this is what LBW would think of in that situation)

i mean the hierarchy of the power given to the royal family are all the members are so powerful?

if LBW had become just a royal family member in an absolute king power with ministers as advisers and not holding all the power would he as a brother of th king be more powerful than a minister or less or the same 

would he have the same power of the king? 

[lisafransisca]

22 hours ago, nevill said:

well at last saw the episodes with subs

have to say that for me LBW showed his tyranny tendencies - his "fear" of losing power n btw and it is only his power he cares about shows his going the power crazy path

when he realized JDJ plan - which im all for  - he didnt think once about his father or older brother which would have become the obvious king after LSG and after that his brothers son would have ascended the throne  - so here is the birth of a tyrant - wanting absolute power and justifying it in wishing to make BY and others dream come true -  well everyone needs a reason 

anyway im a fully JDJ person now - admittedly i was confused for a bit but ow im sure JDJ is right

LBW will be a tyrant and i think that the only reason or mostly the reason he wa goos to his citizens was bc he wanted to be remembered as a good king in history

@homura in wikipedia LSG said LBW was the best choice for a king is it true? i thought he wanted his 8th son to become a king    

btw loved how LM is really shown to influence LBW decision making and i think he really appreciates her support and listen to her advice and she is helping forming the tyrant 

 

I think it's too quick to judge that at the moment he didn't think once about his father, because all this time he was with Sambong to make his father the king. He was so shocked because JDJ said the king would be the flower. That's the same thing as being the puppet. And judging from his experience, he must know that all the previous kings were the puppets too and there was nothing good about it. The writers wrote each character with many layers, and they gradually are changing him as a power freak, not in one night or moment.

Anyway, Sambong's lack of information sharing and conversation with the dragons can lead to misjudgment and understanding.

And, we see how Nameless organization ruled behind the screen because they use information as their weapon.

[bodashiri]

28 minutes ago, nevill said:

ok not stepping on any toes koreans are very protective of their kings ergo the turmoil BY made but dictionary\definition wise he is

not how the ppl see him but how he fits the description of what is a tyrant=absolute ruler he is

he made progress he improved conditions but everything was conditioned on absolute submissiveness this is a tyrant even if he didnt butcher his ppl we can only be sure that they didnt give him cause to do so 

are you telling me that if a revolt of the ppl would have happened he would have given his throne you know him better can you honestly say that?  

 

By your definition, almost every Asian kings in those times would be defined as tyrants. Look, In 1394, Jung Do-Jeon and Yi Seong-Gye massacred every Goryeo royalty (Wang clan) to stabilize Joseon's legitimacy. Those innocent people killed in the massacre outnumbered those nobles killed by Yi Bang-Won. Then, is Yi Seong-Gye (and Jung Do-Jeon) more cruel tyrant than Bang-Won by your definition? Ironically, it was Yi Bang-Won who stopped the massacre after he became a king.

[nevill]

Just now, lisafransisca said:

I think it's too quick to judge that at the moment he didn't think once about his father, because all this time he was with Sambong to make his father the king

but this is what the writers chose to show us as the ending as a cliffhanger - what the writers choose LBW to say is that he will lose his own power also we know that the drama will show him becoming a tyrant absolute ruler who eliminate all his opposition and by making LBW think of himself first they signal the audience 

this is it this is the moment it all began