[Drama 2015] Hwajung 화정

[Guest teredenz]

when you're tired of their never ending betrayal and power grabbing, this duo will make things lighter for you hahaha 

[SMP567]

when you're tired of their never ending betrayal and power grabbing, this duo will make things lighter for you hahaha 

 

Hi ​@teredenz

Thank you so much for the mood lightup. I really like these 2 funny guys. They are just so adorable 

[SMP567]

MBC                                           Cute 

[SMP567]

as tagged

[gerrytan8063]

The reign of Gwanghaegun & Injo for Joseon Dynasty was jumping from a hot pan into fire

They depose Gwanghaegun & puts Injo on the throne only to find that they escape a bad situation only to land themselves for a worse situation, having to suffered 2 Manchu Invasion (1627 & 1636) & this time not like the Imjin war (Japanese Invasion), China was in no position to provide assistance (having to deal with internal rebellion, adding to economic break down, famines & floods)....Manchu became the Ruler of China in 1644

Injo submission to the Manchu seen in the first few minutes of the 1st episode in the drama "Cruel Palace, War of Flowers", as it also kept Joseon independence as Manchu like the Mongols before them didn't see Joseon as "prize worthy" as they were just satisfied in extracting tributes from Joseon. The Manchu went on to fully conquer China

The aftermath on how Joseon suffered after the invasion is portray very well in 2011 Korean movie that feature the 2nd Manchu Invasion "Arrow, the ultimate weapon" (Choejeongbyeonggi Hwal 최종병기 활)

[Misstwilightfan1416]

Wow Those Old Men Only Care About Money,Power, And Greed And Never See The Full Picture Until It Is Too Late. In Episode 14 Did In-Woo Already Says He Like Hwayi? Or Did He Says That He Knows That Joo-won Likes Her?

[SMP567]

MBC

[SMP567]

The reign of Gwanghaegun & Injo for Joseon Dynasty was jumping from a hot pan into fire

They depose Gwanghaegun & puts Injo on the throne only to find that they escape a bad situation only to land themselves for a worse situation, having to suffered 2 Manchu Invasion (1627 & 1636) & this time not like the Imjin war (Japanese Invasion), China was in no position to provide assistance (having to deal with internal rebellion, adding to economic break down, famines & floods)....Manchu became the Ruler of China in 1644

The aftermath on how Joseon suffered after the invasion is portray very well in 2011 Korean movie that feature the 2nd Manchu Invasion "Arrow, the ultimate weapon" (Choejeongbyeonggi Hwal 최종병기 활)

​Thanks, @gerrytan8063 for the good summary helping us understand this part of the history of Joseon this drama is presenting.

I wonder though if the Joseonese saw the consequence of what they did regarding deposing Gwanghae and enthroning Injo at that time.  If they did, how come they didn't try to reinstate Gwanghae?  If they did, Joseon might not have to be submitted to Manchuria.

Do you happen to know what other damages were done to Joseon under Injo's rule?  What were the aftermath? 

 

[SMP567]

                     King Gwanghae, the 15th king of Joseon

 

 

                     King Injo, the 16th king of Joseon
 

[valsava]

The reign of Gwanghaegun & Injo for Joseon Dynasty was jumping from a hot pan into fire

They depose Gwanghaegun & puts Injo on the throne only to find that they escape a bad situation only to land themselves for a worse situation, having to suffered 2 Manchu Invasion (1627 & 1636) & this time not like the Imjin war (Japanese Invasion), China was in no position to provide assistance (having to deal with internal rebellion, adding to economic break down, famines & floods)....Manchu became the Ruler of China in 1644

The aftermath on how Joseon suffered after the invasion is portray very well in 2011 Korean movie that feature the 2nd Manchu Invasion "Arrow, the ultimate weapon" (Choejeongbyeonggi Hwal 최종병기 활)

​Thanks, @gerrytan8063 for the good summary helping us understand this part of the history of Joseon this drama is presenting.

I wonder though if the Joseonese saw the consequence of what they did regarding deposing Gwanghae and enthroning Injo at that time.  If they did, how come they didn't try to reinstate Gwanghae?  If they did, Joseon might not have to be submitted to Manchuria.

Do you happen to know what other damages were done to Joseon under Injo's rule?  What were the aftermath? 

 

​

@smp567,  If I'm not mistaking it was Injo that sent the crown prince and the grand prince to china as hostages with the crown princess..  Injo also became addicted to opium.. I don't know if these are the exact facts but this what had went on in cruel palace.. Another drama you might want to checkout..

 

Wow Those Old Men Only Care About Money,Power, And Greed And Never See The Full Picture Until It Is Too Late. In Episode 14 Did In-Woo Already Says He Like Hwayi? Or Did He Says That He Knows That Joo-won Likes Her?

 

​@misstwilightfan1416,  This is what these old men fail to realize and they was trying to get GW to send those troops in to help GW already knew that would be getting the country wipe out and let the two kingdoms in china fight among each other..  GW by any means wanted to be free of China rule even Sejong but what do Injo do submit..

 

I have heard in China they have a saying every 100 years a great ruler is born.. I been wondering how true this is only great ruler I know of from China is Han Wu Di..  

     

[SMP567]

Hello @valsava,  Having a good time on Friday's afternoon?    

Thank you for the nice comment.  So Injo sent his own children to Ming as hostages??  I don't have a respect for a king that gets on a throne by deposing the previous king when he can't even do half as much as the one he is deposing.

Still now, I can't seem to rationalize why they would depose Gwanghae for. The 15th king had saved the country from Japan while he was only the Crown Prince. How many Crown Princes in the history had stood guard protecting the country when everyone else including his father king ran away? 

 

A saying, " Every 100 years a great ruler is born. "    That's one great ruler born every century...
Let's see... Sejong the Great was born in 1397.  His reign was  1418-1450.  Joseon Dynasty ended in 1910.  The Dynasty lasted another 460 years after Sejong died.  Which kings have you heard of who are great rulers after 1450?   ( We may have to define what 'great' measures.)  That is interesting to check out but we may have to watch more drama!

 

 

[valsava]

Hello @valsava,  Having a good time on Friday's afternoon?    

Thank you for the nice comment.  So Injo sent his own children to Ming as hostages??   Heard about " Cruel Palace..." . The name is not very appealing to me. I think I'll skip Injo's story as I don't have a respect for a king that gets on a throne by deposing the previous king when he can't even do half as much as the one he is deposing.

Still now, I can't seem to rationalize why they would depose Gwanghae for. The 15th king had saved the country from Japan while he was only the Crown Prince. How many Crown Princes in the history had stood guard protecting the country when everyone else including his father king ran away? 

 

A saying, " Every 100 years a great ruler is born. "    That's one great ruler born every century...
Let's see... Sejong the Great was born in 1397.  His reign was  1418-1450.  Joseon Dynasty ended in 1910.  The Dynasty lasted another 460 years after Sejong died.  Which kings have you heard of who are great rulers after 1450?   ( We may have to define what 'great' measures.)  That is interesting to check out but we may have to watch more drama!

 

 

​@smp567,  It's supposed to be Dong Yi Son Yi Guem and her Great Grand Son Yi San.. Yi San was A good King and Also Yi San  Great Grand Father..

 

But this is what I found to your question..  

세종 King Sejong the Great Yi Do

1418-1450

The most famous Joseon king. He’s been portrayed in several dramas, but most recently we can see him inDeep Rooted Tree, a murder mystery set at the time when King Sejong was creating the Korean characters, hangul. Hangul day is celebrated every year and there’s a statue of King Sejong near the hangul museum in Seoul. Also see the epic The Great King Sejong (KBS 2008)

세조 King Sejo Yi Yu

1455-1468

(King Sejong’s son) He usurped the throne from his nephew King Danjong, and then had him killed. Still, he was considered a successful leader of the country. The King and I (SBS 2007) starts here and follows the life of a loyal eunuch to several kings

성종 King Seongjong Yi Hyeol

1469-1494

(nephew of King Yejong) Jewel in the Palace, (MBC, 2003) the story of Jang-geum a royal cook and first female physician to the king, starts  here when the king orders the execution by poisoning of his deposed wife Queen Lady Yun (mother of future King Yeonsangun).The King and I (SBS, 2007) is about the life of a court eunuch in love with his childhood sweetheart. It’s also set around this time during King Seongjong and then King Yeonsangun’s reign. King Seongjong was only 13 when he came to the throne, so his grandmotherQueen Jeonghee ruled in his place along with his mother Queen Insu – the drama Queen Insu (jTBC 2011) follows her story

[valsava]

중종 King Jungjong  Yi Yeok

1506-1544

In Jewel in the Palace, (Dae Jang Geum) King Jungjong makes Jang-geum a 6th rank official and appoints her to be his first female personal physician. (see my brief Dae Jang Geum recaps here or my post on how King Jungjong is portrayed in Dae Jang Geum). The story of Hwang Jin Yi is about one of the most  famous gisaengs in the Joseon period. The King and I (SBS 2007)

 

명종 King Myeongjong Yi Hwan

1545-1567

Became king at age 12 so Queen Munjeong ruled in his name. He died young without an heir. He is a young prince in Mandate of Heaven and is used by his ambitious power-hungry mother, Queen Munjeong. (See how Queen Munjeong is portrayed as a

 

선조 King Seonjo  Yi Yeon

1567-1608

(half-nephew of King Myeongjong)  Ruled through political chaos and Seven-year War (1592-1598) with Japan and Toyotomi Hideyoshi. The drama Heojun (MBC, 2000) is the story of the famous physician Heojun (1537-1615) ) and is set during the whole of King Seonjo’s reign. (This is still my favourite Sageuk drama.) There’s also a daily drama remake  Guam Heo Jun (MBC 2013) about the same doctor. The story of the scheming Concubine Kim appears in The King’s Woman (SBS 2003)

 

광해군 Gwanghaegun Yi Hon	1608-1623	Was an accomplished ruler but due to the political situation at the time he ended up being deposed in a coup and died on Jeju Island. So he remains a prince (gun) and does not have a posthumous title. The drama Jung Yi, Goddess of Fire (MBC 2013) is the love story of Gwanghaegun and Joseon’s first female potter. The King’s Woman (SBS 2003) The King’s Face (KBS2 2014) is a thriller about Gwanghaegun’s  difficult path to become king.
인조 King Injo Yi Jong	1623-1649	Considered a weak ruler. He reigned through two Manchu invasions. So this was a difficult and unstable period in Joseon history.  Iljimae (SBS 2008) A kind of Robin Hood Chuno The Slave Hunters (KBS 2010) shows life to be pretty chaotic in Joseon after the Manchu Wars. Many commoners have become slaves and the Chuno slave hunters are hired to bring them back to their owners.  (there’s romance too, though!) Cruel Palace – War of Flowers (JTBC 2013) is about the beautiful but evil royal concubine Jo So Yong who tried to use her womanly charms on the king to gain power in Joseon.  The film War of the Arrows (2011) is a beautiful action film about the best archer in Joseon who has to fight the Manchu invaders to save his sister. (quite easy to follow without subtitles and it’s exciting- even if like me you don’t usually like action.) Strongest Chil Woo (KBS2 2008) is an action drama and includes the death / murder of the King’s son Crown Prince Sohyeon. The Three Musketeers (season 1) (TVN 2014)  is also about Prince Sohyeon and the men who try to protect him.

 

효종 King Hyojong Yi Ho	1649-1659	Spent time as a captive of the Qing Dynasty before becoming King. Then reformed and expanded the military. He sent troops to help the new Qing Dynasty in China defeat Russia and relations with Qing improved. King Hyojong appears in Horse Doctor(MBC 2012) about the life of a vet who becomes a royal doctor. His elder brother, Crown Prince  Sohyeon who died in mysterious circumstances at the palace appears in the first episode. Crown Prince Sohyeon also appears in The Slave Hunters (Chuno, KBS 2010). Chuno Ggun were slave hunters whose job  it was to catch runaway slaves, nobi.
현종 King Hyeonjong Yi Yeon	1659-1674	During his reign, there were power struggles between two political factions Westerners (Seoin) and Southerners (Namin)  Horse Doctor (MBC 2012)
숙종 King Sukjong  Yi Sun	1674-1720	He had to deal with the continuing fight for power between the Westerners and Southerners. The Westerners won (for a while) but broke into two smaller factions (Soron and Noron). The political situation is seen clearly in the drama Dong Yi (MBC, 2010) – a romance based on the relationship between King Sukjong and Suk Bin (Dong Yi), concubine and mother of King Yeongjo. See more posts about Dong Yi .Queen In Hyun’s Man (tvN 2012) is a fusion drama with time travel to modern-day Seoul. Queen In Hyun was King Sukjong’s Queen in the drama Dong Yi. Jang Ok Jung, Living by Love (SBS 2013) is also about the life of King Sukjong’s famous concubine Jang Hee Bin.

 

 

영조 King Yeongjo Yi Geum	1724-1776	(half-brother of the previous king) The son of King Sukjong and his concubine Suk Bin. He appears as a child in the MBC drama Dong Yi. He went on to rule for 52 years and was the longest ruling monarch of Joseon. Original portraits of him as a prince and as King have survived today. Secret Door(SBS 2014) is a mystery drama about the death of King Yeongjo’s son Crown Prince Sado who was forced to get into a wooden rice chest where he suffocated to death.
정조 King Jeongjo Yi San	1776-1800	(King Yeongjo’s grandson) Considered to be one of the most successful rulers of Joseon. Yi San (MBC 2007) (Wind of the Palace) is about the life of the King. The drama Painter of the Wind (SBS 2008) – about famous painter Shin Yun-bok (born 1758) is also set during his reign. Based on the novel, the drama has a twist as it presents the painter as a woman who pretended to be a man. See my post on some of hisportraits of gisaengs. Sungkyunkwan Scandal(KBS2 2010) also set  during King Jeongjo’s reign.Eight Days Mystery of Jeongjo (2007) tells the story of assassination attempts on the King during an 8 day period. The martial arts fusion drama Warrior Baek Dong Soo (SBS 2011) centres around the Crown Prince Sado conspiracy
순조 King Sunjo Yi Gong	1800-1834	Sangdo (Merchant, MBC, 2002) is the story of the legendary merchant Im Sang-ok (1779-1855). In this drama we get to see the life of traders and the relationship with the Qing Dynasty.

 

현종 King Hyeonjong Yi Hwan	1834-1849	(the grandson of King Sunjo) He died young without an heir.
철종 King Cheoljong Yi Byeon	1849-1863	A low period in Joseon history with corruption and unrest. The Andong Kim clan had taken over power and many members of the Yi family had fled from the capital and were living in poverty. When he was found and chosen to be king, Yi Byeon was poor and couldn’t even read. He died without an heir. But an original portrait of him remains.
고종 King Gojong Yi Myeong-bok	1863-1897	King Gojong severed links with Qing China and became the first emperor of the Korean Empire. But there were many domestic problems and tensions with China and Japan.  Famine, poverty, high taxes and corruption led to several peasant revolts. Japan went to war with Qing in the first Sino-Japanese war (1894-1895) and forced Joseon to allow Japan to use its land and natural resources. In 1895, Empress Myeongseong (there’s a drama about her of the same name, KBS2, 2002) was assassinated by Japanese agents. Emperor Gojong abdicated. An original portrait of him has survived.  Dr Jin (MBC 2012) a time travel medical drama, the Korean version of a drama based on a Japanese manga Gunman in Joseon (KBS2 2014) is about a swordsman who becomes a gunman for revenge. Jejungwon (SBS 2010) is about the first western hospital in Joseon.
순종 Emperor Sunjong Yi Cheok	1897-1910	The last Emperor of the Joseon period.

 

 

I like how with this chart you can relate to kings to each drama.. 

[gerrytan8063]

@‌SMP567

When I saw Dae Jang Geum, my first maiden Korean drama, I went to buy myself a book "The Land Of Scholars, Two Thousand years of Korean Confucianism by Jae-Eun KANG to read up on Joseon Dynasty...maybe you would like to give this book a read

Then there is The Confucian Kingship Of Korea - Youngjo & Politics of Sagacity - Jahyun Kim Haboush. She also did the "Memoirs of Lady Hyegyeong - The autobiographical writings of a Crown Princess. (I didn't purchase this title). Jahyun Kim Haboush books are quite a good read, if you have time

The other is "History of Korea" by Homer B Hulbert (written in a foreigner perspective, he is buried in Seoul, Korea)

[gerrytan8063]

‌@SMP567

The consequences of Joseon Dynasty or the ruling political party the Seoin Faction who put Injo on the throne & dethrone Gwanghaegun under the banner Restoration of Rectitude is that they "bet" on the wrong horse

Restoration of Rectitude provided the Seoin Faction a perfect excuse to dethrone Gwanghaegun by accusing him of unethical act in killing his sibling (Grand Prince Yeongchang) & incarceration of his Mother (Queen Inmok, by default that the Queen is the principal wife to Seonjo, therefore she is the Mother to all his posterity, regardless who had given birth to them)

While the reign of Gwanghaegun (1608-1623) was seen difficult, reorganising of a disorderly national system, restoration of destroyed palaces, revival of the economy, the collection of scattered document for publication (the most famous is Dongui Bogam 동의보감 by Heo Jun)

There was also an anti Ming nationalist power that arose among the Jurchen (later Qing Manchu) to shake off the dominance of the Ming troops was concentrated in the North eastern region courtesy of the Imjin War with Japan (Seonjo practically threw every carrot that he had to Ming, for their assistance in the Imjin War), but the mainstay of this effort lies in Nurhaci (founder of the Qing)

Joseon owe a debt of gratitude to Ming for lending assistance to them during the Imjin war but in the sense, Joseon was in a situation of a difficult choice that is between an egg (Ming) & a rock (Qing). The fact because of this new threat (Qing) as one of the reasons, that Joseon had to suppress extreme anti-Japanese sentiments within the kingdom to facilitate the recovery of diplomatic relations with Tokugawa Shogunate (Japan)

Gwanghaegun had to juggle a realistic diplomatic balance between these nations, but then when Seoin Faction dethrone Gwanghaegun then proclaim their justification by advocating to be pro Ming & anti Qing, naturally will not go down too well with the Qing

Gwanghaegun exile to Ganghwa Island in 1623 but was move to Jeju Island in 1636 to prevent him from having any contact with the Qing during the 2nd Manchu invasion then his life of vicissitudes ended there in 1641 at the age of 67

Nurhaci who have no reason originally to be antagonistic towards Joseon (as Nurhaci had believe that Jurchen & Korean share the same ancestral root, although Joseon may want to defer on that. The fact is feature in the KBS drama "Iron Empress"), as he only see China as his goal but then Seoin faction loudly advocating in slogans "value Ming, devalue Qing" will arise conflict with the Qing & an excuse for "invasion"

[gerrytan8063]

This is a letter wrote by Queen Dowager Inmok of Kim clan as a referral letter for Injo justification to the throne under the banner Restoration of Rectitude as she state the sin (charges) of Gwanghaegun being an ingrate

Queen Dowager Inmok of Kim Clan

Our kingdom had submitted to the Heavenly Court (China Ming Dynasty) for close to 200 years; this relationship between Ruler & Vassal in term of loyalty & father & son in terms of grace. We cannot forget the debt owed in the year of Imjin for eternity. The preceding King (Seonjo) wholeheartedly serve (Ming) during his 40 years of reign & never sat his back against the West (China is West of Korea) while he was alive. Gwanghaegun forgot the grace (of Ming) & acted contrary to morality & arrive at peace with savages by having 2 conflicting minds without fear of decree from Heaven

By giving secret instruction to Kang Hong Rip (1560-1627) to observe the situation carefully without committing his troops to a particular course of action in the year of Gimi (1619), the entire force (Joseon) surrendered immediately

[valsava]

Nurhaci who have no reason originally to be antagonistic towards Joseon (as Nurhaci had believe that Jurchen & Korean share the same ancestral root, although Joseon may want to defer on that. The fact is feature in the KBS drama "Iron Empress"), as he only see China as his goal but then Seoin faction loudly advocating in slogans "value Ming, devalue Qing" will arise conflict with the Qing & an excuse for "invasion"

 

@gerrytan8063,  I also thought they had shared some kinds of roots to the old Guryeo . But when I try to find something about the Jurchens I can't fine much then  thought they was also part of Khitans people.. These thoughts come to mind from watching Iron Empress..  But all I know is they came from the west and a part of then Jin dynasty which is weird.. I guess the best way to find out is to find out what was going on before the Guryeo became into Reign..  

Another question is parts of west of China was apart of Korea.. ? Now I'm going to play history detective..     

 

Note  to self look for dramas related to the Jurchens.. If know any let me know.. 

[gerrytan8063]

After 1600, Joseon relations with China (Ming) was determine by a debt, which the Korean felt that they owe for the assistance provided by the Chinese in the Imjin war. But the rise of Nurhaci & his Manchu Army in the North of the Korean peninsula was given constant under pressure from political faction to Gwanghaegun. Gwanghaegun was walking a tight rope between a declining Ming Overlord & a fast rising to power Barbarian nation

As to the case in the late 14th century at the founding of Joseon Dynasty, events proved that an attempt to remain on good terms with both nation (declining Yuan Dynasty & rising of the Ming Dynasty) is impractical  

When Joseon in a state of considerable political turmoil (declining Goryeo & the rising of Joseon) chose to support Ming, a round of invasion was ensued

This time retribution was visited on Joseon by the Manchu who were the descendant of the Jurchens

Gwanghaegun postpone this fateful choice as long as he could but in 1619 the Ming government called on Joseon to join the Yang Hao's Liaodong campaign against Nurhaci & the Manchu. Joseon dutifully supplied a division of 10,000 men under the command of Kang Hong Rip & fought in the Battle of Sarhu. Kang Hong Rip (강홍립) had orders (from Gwanghaegun) that if things went badly, to hold back & surrender, then they can explain to the Manchu that their participation was just out of political necessity only. At the time the Manchu was more interest in the Chinese than the Korean, therefore Kang Hong Rip & his men were allowed to return home without an incident

Nevertheless Joseon couldn't forego the commitment indefinitely & in 1623 after the Manchu taken Liaodong. Gwanghaegun court was bitterly divided over Gwanghaegun lukewarm attitude towards Ming, once again the presence of this issue affect the outcome of a political struggle, & Gwanghaegun was dethrone 

But the 2 invasion of the Manchu in Korea effectively ended the Ming-Joseon relationship

[gerrytan8063]

‌@valsava

"Another question is parts of west of China was apart of Korea.. ? Now I'm going to play history detective"

It should be part of China that is west of Korea.....that time was during Gwanggaeto the Great of Goguryeo (39BC - AD668), they had parts of present Manchuria

As for Goryeo (918-1392) the earlier part, they were dealing with the Liao Dynasty (Khitan Dynasty 907-1125) then Jin Dynasty (Jurchen Dynasty - 1115-1234) then later it was the Yuan Dynasty (Mongols - 1271-1368 feature in the drama Empress Ki)

Khitan & Jurchen are 2 different nationals forming their dynasty in different period of history

[SMP567]

@gerrytan8063, @valsava

Hi. Thank you, thank you so much both for such great discussions and info. That pretty much covered issues that had me questioning about Joseon Dynasty, their rulers, and the ruling sequence. So far the info was scattered and crossed over between fact and fiction. In dramas, we sometimes see the wars here and there but I didn't always connect to the whole picture. You certainly helped clarifying it.

@Gerrytan8063, thanks for the book recommendation. They sound interesting. I've read "Memoirs of Lady Hyegyeong" and will check the rest out.

@valsava, the chart is just great. Now I can see which period of the history (Joeon) a sageuk drama I'm watching is at.

Again, thank you for such fun, interesting, and intellectual discussions 

Happy Saturday!