Joo Won 주원 [Drama- The Midnight Studio/ 야한(夜限) 사진관]

[kireeti2]

29 minutes ago, kittyna said:

JW have been training for before he became an actor? Or do you simply mean that he started off on stage?

He was trained to be a musical actor and he did quite a few shows, like "Altar Boys, spring awakening, Grease". My favorite one is Grease

31 minutes ago, kittyna said:

lol - I think they were going for Gaksital-style fan service there  

I really hope joo won grows out of this notion of fan service and stop doing cliche stuff. I can never imagine Hallyu stars being taken serious in acting universe. You can see top actors in Korea are not know as Hallyu stars. I would like to see Joo won grow out of this take some serious roles, even if he is not successful initially, as the time passes he might achieve his transcendence in his acting

49 minutes ago, kittyna said:

However, I actually think that characterization might be why they ultimately changed the choreography  Because the original rehearsed version shows Gyun Woo having a good deal more prowess with a sword than might make sense for his background, personality, etc. - for those who haven't seen it, the rehearsed choreography shows the original slash to Minister Jung's neck, but follows with a parry (because Minister Jung rushes them again) and thrust to the abdomen, with the last being what ultimately kills him. Also, after comparing the rehearsal footage with the finalized shot in the drama, that first slash was done differently, too: the original appears to go across the entire neck, whereas the final version just strikes one side.

 

So why am I saying it's a reflection of Gyun Woo's character? Because the finalized version of the choreography (i.e. what we actually see in the drama) feels to me like an impulsive move: it's a knee-jerk, "OMG, he actually got past Lieutenant Kang - I gotta do something!" sort of reaction. By contrast, the rehearsal version makes Gyun Woo feel more like a seasoned swordsman or warrior - which, given what we've seen of him up to this point in the drama, would have been out of character.

 

Not that Gyun Woo can't hold his own in a fight - but most of what he knows seems to be defensive rather than offensive in nature. For instance, he uses a lot of kicks in close-quarter fights, but the kicks tend to be pretty low: more like he's just trying to force his opponent back than actually hurt them. As for the fan fight...that, incidentally, appears to be his best weapon - although his archery is also pretty impressive. That bit about the archery is historically accurate, too: most yangban men, regardless of whether they focused on the literary or military arts, did practice archery. 

That's quite an analysis, all I could come up with explanation that "he is the main lead and he can take on anyone and also it was the final episode so the villain has to be killed"

 

51 minutes ago, kittyna said:

What can I say? I've had times when friends or people I looked up to wound up letting me down, so I'm naturally more cautious than I used to be.

Oh, I see. You got hurt by some people who you thought were the ones you ca trust or confide with secrets. We have all been there, that's I too have a small group of friends, like in single digits. It's better this way, having few close friends rather than having many with superficial connections

And finally someone who shares my views, I hope "Alice" doesn't suffer the same fate, given that Joo won cannot afford another low rating drama like other stars, due to his less popularity and of course no backing of stardom. He can bounce back but it might take lot of time

https://sg.style.yahoo.com/lee-min-ho-isnt-enough-to-save-the-mess-of-the-king-eternal-monarch-053329118.html

[kittyna]

12 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I really hope joo won grows out of this notion of fan service and stop doing cliche stuff. I can never imagine Hallyu stars being taken serious in acting universe. You can see top actors in Korea are not know as Hallyu stars. I would like to see Joo won grow out of this take some serious roles, even if he is not successful initially, as the time passes he might achieve his transcendence in his acting

 

12 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

And finally someone who shares my views, I hope "Alice" doesn't suffer the same fate, given that Joo won cannot afford another low rating drama like other stars, due to his less popularity and of course no backing of stardom. He can bounce back but it might take lot of time

 

I remember that JW also started thinking about his comeback even before he enlisted - he said then that he was willing to start all over again from the bottom if he needed to. From what I've seen regarding comeback dramas recently, it seems like the one thing producers need to keep in mind is that banking on the actor's name and reputation isn't enough - probably because the pool's too crowded right now (tons of enlistments happening all at once = tons of comebacks happening all at once).

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that JW can't afford a low-rating drama yet, because oftentimes, the consensus among viewers is that the ratings might be low, but his performance/acting is fine and it may be issues of writing, characterization, genre, etc.

 

As for the fan-service from My Sassy Girl, I think it's justifiable, given that it was his "swan song" drama (i.e. his last one before enlisting). So his agency was probably trying to cover as many bases as possible: doing a sageuk because fans requested it, adding Gaksital references because that's what he's known for, etc.

 

12 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

That's quite an analysis, all I could come up with explanation that "he is the main lead and he can take on anyone and also it was the final episode so the villain has to be killed"

 

lol - I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility that that is all the producers had in mind  But I'm the sort of viewer who tries to rationalize or weave together everything we see about a character into a cohesive whole - that's part of the fleshing out process that goes into my writing, for instance  

 

In that scene, actually, I find that while Gyun Woo's actions make sense...I'm left wondering how on earth Kang Joon Young managed to get caught off guard and pushed off to the side in the first place (like, that was definitely out of character). For me, that's the clue that the scene was written to let JW be the hero rather than anything Gyun Woo does himself.   

[kireeti2]

More Behind the scenes from "Alice" drama The more I see the Behind the scenes the more respect the production staff, the amount of the hard work they put in making of the drama is unparalleled and yet it infuriates me when I hear such kind of where staff have been overworked and mistreated One of the example of staff being overworked. It's high time for K-drama industry to make a show or a drama about the production staff members(not like "Producers"), so that people can sympathize with them and be more sensitive towards them. In some cases even if the story of a drama is dull  the production team's hard work always makes the drama watchable 

Behind the scene of Alice

[kittyna]

7 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

More Behind the scenes from "Alice" drama The more I see the Behind the scenes the more respect the production staff

 

lol - You beat me to sharing these, so thanks!  I wonder what sort of scene they're filming there: all the boxes stacked up makes me think someone's supposed to either jump or fall off that rooftop there. I guess we'll find out when it happens 

 

7 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

It's high time for K-drama industry to make a show or a drama about the production staff members(not like "Producers"), so that people can sympathize with them and be more sensitive towards them. In some cases even if the story of a drama is dull  the production team's hard work always makes the drama watchable 

 

I think that could be an interesting idea - a drama about what actually goes on behind-the-scenes from the perspective of the production crew (since there are already a ton told from the perspectives of actors). But even if the viewing public is sympathetic towards them, that doesn't change the fact that the bottom dollar is what's going to count most for the industry: from what I've gathered thus far, labour is regarded as cheap in Korea and workers replaceable. Under those circumstances, employers are just as likely to lay off or fire someone who's demanding better pay or conditions than actually follow through - and I don't know how much of an effect pressure from viewers might have. Like, what are people gonna do? Boycott? Maybe, possibly - that's at least part of what's contributing to lower ratings for The King: Eternal Monarch right now (people avoiding the drama due to various controversies and scandals) - but enough that it'd actually matter to those profiting from overworking and underpaying the crew? I think that's rather idealistic.

 

However, one thing that I think can help is if there's a shift in the industry towards pre-produced dramas - it's the more conventional (by K-drama standards, anyway) "live shoot" dramas that are notorious for overworking, well, just about everybody because of tight schedules, spontaneous re-hashings of the scenes to fit with viewer feedback or boost ratings (meaning that stuff already filmed might have to be re-done completely), etc. In this, at least, I think fans are partially responsible: we're the ones demanding more content, not really paying attention to how much work goes into churning out these dramas, films, variety shows, etc. If we are more lenient towards the pre-produced format, which allows for filming and production to be extended if needed (rather than just trying to squeeze more work into less time), then maybe the on-set environment can change.

 

Like Alice, for example: personally, I'd rather wait longer and know that the actors and crew are getting enough rest than get overexcited and be all "Bbali, bbali" about JW's comeback if that means people are forced to cram or work overtime.

 

But anyway, on a happier note - remember how, in my recent fic, I used Chinese characters to choose names for my original characters? Well, that actually got me curious about what (if anything) went into the names we see in JW's dramas themselves. Since I watched most of these dramas in Cantonese dub (and there's always Chinese Wikipedia when I haven't), I do have some sense of what characters were used for JW's characters' names...but what do they mean? Let's find out!

 

Note: I'll write out the full names, but will show the meanings/definitions for the given names, since family names, well, aren't chosen with meanings in mind  In short: ignore whatever the first character is  

 

Gu Ma Jun

具馬俊

"horse" + "talented/handsome" ("Jun" has two main meanings, either of which are possible for his character - not sure where the "Ma" fits in, though )

 

Hwang Tae Hui

黃泰熙

"exalted" + "glorious"

 

Lee Kang To

李江土

"river" + "earth" ("Earth" as in the element, rather than the planet  By the way, the "San" in his brother's name means "mountain", so both brothers have very direct connections to the land in their names.)

 

Han Pil Hoon (birth name)

韓弼勳

"help" + "meritorious deeds"

 

Han Gil Ro (cover name)

韓吉路

"lucky/good" + "road" (That would be the Chinese meaning - but "Gil", just in terms of sound, can also mean "road" in Korean. So..."road road" )

 

Park Si On

朴施溫

"give" + "warmth" (This meaning is explicitly given in the drama, when Si On introduces himself to his colleagues. It's not mandatory, but some Koreans do introduce themselves by stating explicitly which characters are in their names - Kim Tak Gu was another one who did that.)

 

Cha Yoo Jin

車宥振

"to pardon/forgive" + "to excite/to stir up" (The "Yoo" also means "to calm" in Japanese - which might actually make more sense - but I went with the Chinese here because I couldn't find a meaning specifically for Korean.)

 

Kim Tae Hyun

金泰賢

"exalted" + "virtuous" (Dang...I think Kim Tae Hyun and Park Si On tie for having the most in-character names!)

 

Gyun Woo

甄佑 or 甄優

"to help/protect" OR "excellent" (Somehow, I found two different Chinese versions of Gyun Woo's name on Wikipedia, so I just looked up both. Either one works for his character, I think - but if the actual intended name is the latter, then pity mini Gyun Woo for having to learn to write that )

 

And, finally, because somehow it's already included....

 

Park Jin Gyeom

朴鎮謙

"pressing" + "humble" 

[kittyna]

Someone did a compilation on Instagram of K-drama characters with special needs. Park Si On is the only one of JW's characters featured here, but there are others as well.

 

Note: I'm using the term "special needs" because there's nothing really linking all of these characters' conditions in common. Like, some are disabilities or disorders, but others are neurological differences that can have both enhancing and hindering effects on a person's life (e.g. synesthesia or hyperthemesia).

[kireeti2]

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

lol - You beat me to sharing these, so thanks!  I wonder what sort of scene they're filming there: all the boxes stacked up makes me think someone's supposed to either jump or fall off that rooftop there. I guess we'll find out when it happens 

Well, I am 9 hours ahead of you And yeah, I think the scene is about a chase, person Joo won chasing someone as a part of his detective job

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Bbali, bbali

Is it pali pali or Bbali Bbali? I am always confused whenever I hear this word, it sounds like it is pronounced as "Pali"

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

However, one thing that I think can help is if there's a shift in the industry towards pre-produced dramas

Yeah, most of the high budgeted dramas are moving towards pre-produced model, because if the money is more the pressure to complete the drama will also be more. And less budget means less work. So, I guess it is good sign

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Park Jin Gyeom

朴鎮謙

"pressing" + "humble" 

Intriguing, Pressing and humble. I guess this character would be different than previous roles joo won had taken

 

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Dang...I think Kim Tae Hyun and Park Si On tie for having the most in-character names!

They had also tied for best father category

 

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

horse

Like an wild horse which cannot be tamed?

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

Cha Yoo Jin

車宥振

"to pardon/forgive" + "to excite/to stir up" (The "Yoo" also means "to calm" in Japanese - which might actually make more sense - but I went with the Chinese here because I couldn't find a meaning specifically for Korean.)

Lol! It is the most out of syn name and character

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

The King: Eternal Monarch right now (people avoiding the drama due to various controversies and scandals)

I think it has more to do with routine story and boring and slow paced plot. And it is just my interpretation that the so called "scandals and controversies" are being used as smoke screen to hide their debacle performance in-terms of acting and story

2 hours ago, kittyna said:

I don't know how much of an effect pressure from viewers might have. Like, what are people gonna do? Boycott? Maybe, possibly

Not like boycotting, but at least some these incidence can be avoided, salary is always contentious issue, and on top of that it depends up on supply of labors. And given that South Korea is driven by market force and it's economy is more formalized, rules like working hours can be regulated without any friction with the employers. I am not hoping for a punitive action like boycott, since it will negatively impact the industry, What I am hoping is that sensitizing and letting people know the plight the staff will go through in making of film/drama, I am more looking for a positive outcomes like people advocating for better pay legislation or amending the acts which are already enacted. I am more like looking it in a perspective of "Sunlight is the best disinfectant"

[kireeti2]

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

Someone did a compilation on Instagram of K-drama characters with special needs. Park Si On is the only one of JW's characters featured here, but there are others as well.

I think Park Si-On story is very different from the dramas which are being compared to. Of course they all have similarities one way or another, but it can not be totally compared with any one of the given drama. I think it can be Good Doctor have similarities  with movies like "Forrest Gump and Rain Man", if anyone of you had seen those movies, protagonist  does have Autism and has Savant syndrome except in the case of "Fores Gump", in Forrest Gump it is like Park Si-On case, where he takes things literally and falls in love. Same thing can be said with Rain Man, but it can be compared with intelligence, like in Rain Man, the main lead as ability to do Mathematics and Count cards accurately, while Park Si-on can memorize and put things together but is sensitive towards to yelling and violence, one more thing "Roman J. Israel, Esq"  lead also comes close to the Park Si-on character, in this movie also, lead as a father like figure to look after him and nurture his savant syndrome so that he can become a successful lawyer and also help his fellow African-Americans to get justice when their rights are violated and also to reform justice system. Note: Here I am not only comparing characters of lead here, but also Joo won' acting was on par with "Dustin Hoffman, Denzel Washington and Tom Hanks" only in terms of playing a character with Autism, in terms of other variation  Joo won still has a long to achieve the acting levels of above actors, which he'll 

[kittyna]

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Is it pali pali or Bbali Bbali? I am always confused whenever I hear this word, it sounds like it is pronounced as "Pali"

 

I've seen both, but I tend to romanize it as "Bbali", because the hangeul is different depending on whether it's the sound here (ㅃ) or just a "p" like in the surname "Park" (ㅂ). The sound in "bbali" is what's called a "doubled consonant" - which basically means the "b/p" sound is emphasized or comes out stronger than it normally would.

 

But any time you try to romanize Korean, it can get confusing - and people will use different Roman letters for the exact same sound in different words simultaneously. So, just to give a quick visual, let me go back to the characters' names I just listed: multiple Romanizations are possible for just about all of them. Fans have tended to come to some sort of consensus for 1-2 spellings over time, though, as follows:

 

Gu Ma Jun = Gu Ma Joon 

Hwang Tae Hui = Hwang Tae Hee (I personally use "Hui" because I associate "Tae Hee" as a girl's name)

Lee Kang To = Lee Gang To

Han Gil Ro (haven't seen an alternate yet)

Park Si On = Park Shi On

Cha Yoo Jin = Cha Yu Jin

Kim Tae Hyun = Kim Tae Hyeon

Gyun Woo = Gyeon Woo

 

And, sometimes, in even a single name, the same sound can be written differently going from one syllable to the next: e.g. the name "Sun Young" from my recent fic (which is a super-common name: I've even seen "Seon Young" or "Seon Yeong" there).

 

If that's the case with just names, you can imagine how many other possibilities there are for everyday words. So it does help to be able to recognize at least some hangeul letters and how they sound if you ever want to try looking up Korean words and how to Romanize them  

 

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Intriguing, Pressing and humble. I guess this character would be different than previous roles joo won had taken

 

Maybe - depends on how deliberate the name choice was (which, looking at some of the other characters I listed, may not be all that much at all )

 

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Like an wild horse which cannot be tamed?

 

For Ma Jun? Yeah, possibly - although I doubt that's what his parents intended (in hindsight, they probably meant the horse's nobility), that's what wound up happening  

 

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Lol! It is the most out of syn name and character

 

Not to mention just plain paradoxical - especially if you use the alternate "calm" meaning for "Yoo". Like...what? I mean, in a sense, that does work, sort of (the whole conflict between his rigid "A" exterior and his more passionate "S" interior), but yeah, I don't know just how much that was a deliberate choice on the part of the screenwriters, to be honest.

 

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

And it is just my interpretation that the so called "scandals and controversies" are being used as smoke screen to hide their debacle performance in-terms of acting and story

 

And I'm of the opinion that only the individuals who choose not to watch can ever know their actual reasons. Considering how much fuss is still made over "patriotic" actors and dramas to this day, I do think at least some of the controversies relating to Korean-Japanese history did sway audiences one way or another. I can't just have it go the way I like it (e.g. people liking JW for being a "patriotic actor") without also accepting that it can go the other way (e.g. people disliking a drama that inserts Japanese elements into an alternate version of Korean culture, people disliking an actor for being descended from chinilpa - not in the context of this drama, but it's happened before - etc.).

 

11 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

And given that South Korea is driven by market force and it's economy is more formalized, rules like working hours can be regulated without any friction with the employers. I am not hoping for a punitive action like boycott, since it will negatively impact the industry, What I am hoping is that sensitizing and letting people know the plight the staff will go through in making of film/drama, I am more looking for a positive outcomes like people advocating for better pay legislation or amending the acts which are already enacted. I am more like looking it in a perspective of "Sunlight is the best disinfectant"

 

And while I'd like to think that, I tend to think people are innately selfish and I don't trust major corporations as far as I can throw them. If there are ways they could use cheap labour while still obeying the letter of the law (e.g. only hiring temporary contract workers once permanent employees are guaranteed benefits under the law, poster child social awareness woke-ness while still exploiting outsourced labour, etc), they would. That's what I've experienced, at least.

 

Maybe that's why I subscribe to a more Confucian-sounding way of thinking: because I believe that the only way to bring about positive change is through strong moral education. Of course, teaching is only as effective as the person who receives it, but unless the motivation to change is coming from the industry higher-ups themselves, it's not gonna happen.

 

Speaking of which, here's a chance for me to throw in another little tidbit about historical Korean society's ties to Confucianism: the Confucian social class system was really different from what developed historically in European and European-influenced societies (e.g. North America) or even what we see today. In historical China and Korea, for instance, out of all the free-born citizens out there, it was the merchants who were at the bottom: underneath scholars, warriors, farmers and artisans. The thought was that merchants profited by exploiting people on both ends: buying goods from their producers cheaply (thus exploiting them for their labour), then selling those goods to customers for a profit (thus exploiting them for their need). It's only relatively recently that that thought started to shift into the more recognizable capitalist chaebol-run society we see in today's Korea.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I think Park Si-On story is very different from the dramas which are being compared to.

 

To be fair, I think it's more a list than a comparison (at least, from the perspective of someone who can't read Arabic and just has the pictures to go by). And Good Doctor is the only one out of those dramas I've seen, so it's also the only one I can comment on.

 

JW's performance as Park Si On is...well, controversial. Tons of people love it, but those who I've seen dislike it really dislike it.

[kireeti2]

51 minutes ago, kittyna said:

I've seen both, but I tend to romanize it as "Bbali", because the hangeul is different depending on whether it's the sound here (ㅃ) or just a "p" like in the surname "Park" (ㅂ). The sound in "bbali" is what's called a "doubled consonant" - which basically means the "b/p" sound is emphasized or comes out stronger than it normally would.

Jeez! Sound simple and straight forward, not at all confusing

It's kind of going off the tangent so... 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

And while I'd like to think that, I tend to think people are innately selfish and I don't trust major corporations as far as I can throw them. If there are ways they could use cheap labour while still obeying the letter of the law (e.g. only hiring temporary contract workers once permanent employees are guaranteed benefits under the law, poster child social awareness woke-ness while still exploiting outsourced labour, etc), they would. That's what I've experienced, at least.

Gee! And I thought I was cynical. May be you are right about few corporations, but I think corporations behaves the way they behave is in the field they work. So, I guess if you were referring to textile industries, then you are right: they usually out source their productions to countries which have no child labor laws or law is hallow in nature(third world country like mine). To make profit by exploiting child labor and women(since they are paid less than minimum wage, especially in third world). But Contractualization is the phenomenon which can also be observed in first world countries as well, if not sometimes it can be more exploitative than in third world, given that cost of living is high in developed nations  . On the other hand we cannot deny that wealth of the nation states or at least efficient way using natural resources is because of the big corporations, they even play role in accelerating the urbanization. In my country because of less corporatizations we are using our countries limited resources inefficiently. All said and done, corporations have their own good and ugly side. The good side is open competition and no monoplize of resources and means of productions(yes there is chance of cartelisation or formation of oligarchs just like in Russia, India etc). Ugly side is too much exploitation of Human resource or merely seeing Human resource as tool to achieve productivity, but these things can be regulated if the citizens are informed and there is an active civil society constantly holding these corporates accountable. 

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

That's what I've experienced, at least

By the way, did you mean by experiencing it personally? Or did you observe? Or studied it?(I am just asking out of curiosity and if it too much of an ask, please ignore it)

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

higher-ups themselves, it's not gonna happen

Yeah, I totally agree with you on this one. The spoil brats of millionaires and billionaires need to be thought some basic ethics and morality through their curriculum. It'll not be good for their business but also whole of society, if a multi-national company has a CEO with some basic compassion and empathy, not just with a single minded goal of making money

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

 Confucian social class system

I have doubt in Confucian social class, is class mobility allowed? I mean can a peasant's son become a warrior by studying? Since you have used the word class, so I thought the mobility is also allowed. In Indian caste system also we have similar classifications but the mobility is not allowed, if you born in a particular caste you'll be known with that caste for ever, no mobility is allowed(it wasn't always the same case, our Indian cultural history is divided into Early vedic and Later vedic, so in Early vedic mobility was allowed but in later vedic mobility is restricted just like Hideyoshi's  caste system in Japan )

 

1 hour ago, kittyna said:

JW's performance as Park Si On is...well, controversial. Tons of people love it, but those who I've seen dislike it really dislike it

Ouch! May I ask what was controversial in the performance? It was same performance which was given by other actors who played the role before Joo won, and I don't know if this incidence was real or just a grapevine, but the performance of joo won made high school bullies apology their fellow classmate and to his mother for bullying him because of  his autistic condition. Yeah, maybe there was a controversy regarding the word "Curing" the autism part in the drama, that was a big blunder, director should have been thorough with his research. 

[kittyna]

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Ouch! May I ask what was controversial in the performance? 

 

Not even the "curing" bit (which I always assumed was a mistranslation of "treating", to be honest), but a claim that the drama was outright offensive.

 

It was just one response I saw, but it caught me so off guard that it wound up sticking in my head. If you want, I'll let you read it for yourself. 

 

I remember seeing that and being like, "Really? It's seen in 'the West' as 'one of the worst modern portrayals of autism out there'? What memo did I miss???" But at the same time, given Park Si On's character...while I don't agree with the assessment on this site, I can see where it's coming from. I can see how people can interpret his childlike personality as looking stupid - and how that, in turn, can be understood as an offensive portrayal of autism. That's not what I see, but I can't speak for anybody besides myself.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

By the way, did you mean by experiencing it personally? Or did you observe? Or studied it?(I am just asking out of curiosity and if it too much of an ask, please ignore it)

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

On the other hand we cannot deny that wealth of the nation states or at least efficient way using natural resources is because of the big corporations, they even play role in accelerating the urbanization. In my country because of less corporatizations we are using our countries limited resources inefficiently.

 

Not something I experienced personally, but considering that I'm living in one of the countries that benefits from outsourcing labour to and exploiting said "third world", it's something I have to remain conscious about. As for contract labour in the first world, again, it's not something I've experienced personally, but being just a short distance away from the US where that's part of what led to the whole mess it's dealing with now re: COVID-19 (i.e. contract and part-time workers without paid sick leave or health benefits - due to employers sidestepping laws protecting unionized or permanent employees - being forced to choose between making a living or staying healthy) tells me that there's something inherently wrong with the system.

 

However, that being said, I have to acknowledge that I do benefit from these systems, flawed as I think they are. I certainly had peers that were very strongly for supporting fair trade businesses or artisanal small businesses, but reality is that one's ability to be a socially conscious consumer is, to some extent, determined by one's own socio-economic status: you can only be a socially conscious consumer if you can afford the higher prices of purchasing fair trade, organic, etc.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

The spoil brats of millionaires and billionaires need to be thought some basic ethics and morality through their curriculum. It'll not be good for their business but also whole of society, if a multi-national company has a CEO with some basic compassion and empathy, not just with a single minded goal of making money

 

lol - Which is why I'm glad to see dramas that show elements of that. Like Yong Pal (Han Yeo Jin might be brutal in how she deals with rivals and the higher-ups, but she's got a far kinder approach to the average workers) or My Sassy Girl (sageuk though it was, the whole subplot with Hye Myung at the volunteer clinic was awesome).

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

I have doubt in Confucian social class, is class mobility allowed? I mean can a peasant's son become a warrior by studying? Since you have used the word class, so I thought the mobility is also allowed. In Indian caste system also we have similar classifications but the mobility is not allowed, if you born in a particular caste you'll be known with that caste for ever, no mobility is allowed(it wasn't always the same case, our Indian cultural history is divided into Early vedic and Later vedic, so in Early vedic mobility was allowed but in later vedic mobility is restricted just like Hideyoshi's  caste system in Japan )

 

In theory, there is room for class mobility - but, again, real life tends to play out differently due to systemic privileges, prejudices based on birth line, etc. 

 

However, one thing that needs to be kept in mind about Confucianism (and, depending on who you ask, this can be good or bad): it never claims to be egalitarian. To the best of my knowledge (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), it assumes that political and social inequality is inevitable and even necessary for the sake of preserving social order. So, rather than trying to foster egalitarianism or social mobility, its tenets are based on being the best you can be within the position you're placed in: for the person on top (e.g. sovereign, master, parent, husband, teacher, elder brother/friend), it's about how to be a benevolent and just leader and a positive moral role model; for the person on the bottom (e.g. subject/citizen, servant, child, wife, student, younger brother/friend), it's about how to be a good and moral person while remaining content with your lot in life, with the belief that your status will rise as you grow older/more experienced/etc.

 

By the way, if you want a more light-hearted take on how this might play out in 21st century Korean society, here's a clip from Return of Superman showing how these values are taught to kids today. It is a bit of a historical re-enactment (the same way you might visit a historical site with docents in period costume), but what I'm focusing on is what the teacher says and how he makes it engaging for the kids.

 

I know that, from a 21st century Western(ized) perspective, this sounds really foreign - but understanding how it works, even if you don't plan to adopt it or apply it to your own life (for obvious reasons), might give you a better perspective into some of the traditional customs and values that still inform Korean dramas today. Mind you: things have changed considerably over the years and Korean society is now democratic and more equal than it's been in a long time. But if you want to know why, say, employers can ask potential female employees about their marital status; or why Korean parents take backtalk from their adult kids as seriously as they do; or why government ministers in period dramas can say they're speaking for the people but still advocate against wider education or greater mobility (in answer to your earlier question), it might help to understand the fundamental difference we're talking about here: that Confucianism accepts inequality as a simple fact of life.

 

Finally, on a slightly more random note: just came across this piece of fanart for Nae Il's Cantabile.

 

[kireeti2]

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

It was just one response I saw, but it caught me so off guard that it wound up sticking in my head. If you want, I'll let you read it for yourself. 

And I was thinking it was something serious, like Joo won's depiction of autism have hurt the sentiments of people with special needs. The review is more like complaint about plot and all praise about the western depiction of autism, classic case of review being Ethnocentric. It is more like judging past dramas with present drama standards. Let me give an example: Have watched the drama "The Heirs" the drama which made K-drama popular in the west, so in that drama male lead casually invades the private space of female lead, like kissing her forcibly, holding her hand in threatening way, and female lead more like allows this because the male lead is rich and if he judge it by today's standards it is classic case of Sexual harassment at work place, school and gender violence. Clearly the author was looking for a drama which depicts the facts exactly and doesn't want drama in drama in the first place. Maybe the critic should watch documentaries if he wants factual things. And the way joo won depicted the autism may have flaws, but the critic should know that in East Asia or I should say whole of East doesn't recognize mental health as a priority at all. It is fairly new concept even in 2020, the drama was made in 2013 at that too in Korean, where all the male leads want to make romantic dramas to further their career.He was judging the remakes which were made in 2017 and 2018, it is after 5 and 6 years, and that's a lot of time to compare 2013, it's like comparing 19th century social values with 20th century. Clearly the author of the article lacks the insights of social structure and values of Eastern countries and was judging the acting and drama with western standards, like what is west is good and non-west is offensive and bad .I think Good Doctor did it's job exceptionally well in creating an awareness about the things that autistic people go through, like they are sensitive to loud noise and lights, which is an important information to a person to know like exactly what is bothering an person with autism. Good Doctor also received an award from the Disability Awareness Campaign Headquarters and was designated as a "Good Program" by the Korea Communications Standards Commission.    I don't know what kind of yard stick the critique was using to criticize the drama, he was using the remakes and the movies at the same time, sounded like an person who clearly nitpicks for the sake of criticism

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

In theory, there is room for class mobility - but, again, real life tends to play out differently due to systemic privileges, prejudices based on birth line, etc. 

 

However, one thing that needs to be kept in mind about Confucianism (and, depending on who you ask, this can be good or bad): it never claims to be egalitarian. To the best of my knowledge (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), it assumes that political and social inequality is inevitable and even necessary for the sake of preserving social order. So, rather than trying to foster egalitarianism or social mobility, its tenets are based on being the best you can be within the position you're placed in: for the person on top (e.g. sovereign, master, parent, husband, teacher, elder brother/friend), it's about how to be a benevolent and just leader and a positive moral role model; for the person on the bottom (e.g. subject/citizen, servant, child, wife, student, younger brother/friend), it's about how to be a good and moral person while remaining content with your lot in life, with the belief that your status will rise as you grow older/more experienced/etc.

 

By the way, if you want a more light-hearted take on how this might play out in 21st century Korean society, here's a clip from Return of Superman showing how these values are taught to kids today. It is a bit of a historical re-enactment (the same way you might visit a historical site with docents in period costume), but what I'm focusing on is what the teacher says and how he makes it engaging for the kids.

 

I know that, from a 21st century Western(ized) perspective, this sounds really foreign - but understanding how it works, even if you don't plan to adopt it or apply it to your own life (for obvious reasons), might give you a better perspective into some of the traditional customs and values that still inform Korean dramas today. Mind you: things have changed considerably over the years and Korean society is now democratic and more equal than it's been in a long time. But if you want to know why, say, employers can ask potential female employees about their marital status; or why Korean parents take backtalk from their adult kids as seriously as they do; or why government ministers in period dramas can say they're speaking for the people but still advocate against wider education or greater mobility (in answer to your earlier question), it might help to understand the fundamental difference we're talking about here: that Confucianism accepts inequality as a simple fact of life.

Lol! The more I learn about Confucius(especially from you, since you are not sugar coating) the more I think it is not in syn with my values, I do think that inequality is a social fact and an hard fact, which will never go away but can be improved. But the way I am reading about Confucius principles it almost sound like he wants the status quo in order to keep the stability of the society, like accepting the things the way they are. It is understandable, since Confucius was born in turbulent era, where feudal lords past time was to rebel against the emperor and this rebellion use to cause more bad than good for commoners. So he thought maybe stability can be good for the commoners and society in large, because it will increase the production of food and increase the trade, hence improves the standard of living of everyone, achieving collective good by conformity. But this principle will not sit well with today's liberal democracies. Yes, I do agree that today's modern liberal democracies lack ethical and moral teachings and are run by greedy corporates, whose single agenda is to make profits, but I you can see people or I should say citizens are trying to take control of such corporates through reforms and protests, classic example is protest against Ex-president of Korea, who is convicted of taking bribes from corporates, people of Korea have protested and brought the President to justice, which shows that democratic values can hold government and corporates equally accountable. I think for the Confucian principles to stay relevant in today's liberal democracies, needs to be reformed, like in modern societies authoriy is accepted not imposed like in traditional society. So, yes Confucian principles will help us to steer our lives which are plagued with depression, anxiety, rat race etc. It fosters a sense of belongingness and feeling of community, which is the main reason for today's mental issues. A Confucian principle which as the social values of today's liberal democracies may be relevant and can do lot of good

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

I'm living in one of the countries that benefits from outsourcing labour to and exploiting said "third world"

Well, you can call this exploitation as a phase, where in the beginning minimum wages can be low, but as the time passes there will be growth in minimum wages which will eventual improve standard of living. It is something of a paradox what may seem to be exploitative in first world is empowering in third world, since most of the unskilled jobs are taken up by the women because traditional they have not bee allowed to have an education even till primary level, so these kind of low paying jobs are a way of achieving financial independence to them, but yeah in case of child labor it is robbing kids from their childhood. But in my country people are slowly becoming conscious of such matters and the forming civil societies to tackle this menace of child labor and exploitative working environment, but this pandemic has kind of hit the reset button on the gains which we had made in reforming and creating a safe work place for women and children above 15 years. Now the government is hand in glow with corporates by suspending labor laws in the name of increasing productivity and economic recovery. But I do believe this shall pass to because where ever there is a vibrant democracy there the exploitation cannot thrive for a long time, things might change slowly, but they'll surely improve

 

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

Finally, on a slightly more random note: just came across this piece of fanart for Nae Il's Cantabile.

Lol! The sketch is not accurate, but kudos for the artist for trying to depict it, at least  emotions were depicted accurately

[kireeti2]

Here's the remake of Naeil's cantabile in Chinese version, if anyone is interested they can watch it watch it from (DRAMACOOL website), chances are there that this site might be blocked in few countries, but you'll never know

https://mydramalist.com/31265-cantabile-youth

[kittyna]

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

And I was thinking it was something serious, like Joo won's depiction of autism have hurt the sentiments of people with special needs.

 

Well, to be fair, that is how I understood those comments: that this viewer found the Korean Good Doctor to be an offensive portrayal of autism. Whether the commenter him/herself was someone with autism wasn't the point - the point was that someone watched the show and said, "This is an insult to people with autism and propagates negative stereotypes."

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

And the way joo won depicted the autism may have flaws, but the critic should know that in East Asia or I should say whole of East doesn't recognize mental health as a priority at all. It is fairly new concept even in 2020, the drama was made in 2013 at that too in Korean, where all the male leads want to make romantic dramas to further their career.He was judging the remakes which were made in 2017 and 2018, it is after 5 and 6 years, and that's a lot of time to compare 2013, it's like comparing 19th century social values with 20th century. Clearly the author of the article lacks the insights of social structure and values of Eastern countries and was judging the acting and drama with western standards, like what is west is good and non-west is offensive and bad

 

I do think that context matters: prior to Good Doctor, depictions of autism in Korea tended to group it together with developmental disorders (what used to be called "mental retardation") and it was hard to figure out exactly what a character with a preexisting neurological condition was meant to have. So, say, in interviews where people asked JW about what Good Doctor was about, they tended to ask whether his character is like the one in the film Miracle in Cell No. 7 - except that Park Si On and the lead character in that film had different conditions. What seemed to intrigue audiences in Korea about Good Doctor's portrayal of autism was the savant syndrome angle. However, that particular angle was already prevalent in Western media by 2013, so I think the novelty of it - and the reality of just how progressive that was by Korean standards - probably got lost in transit.

 

10 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

But the way I am reading about Confucius principles it almost sound like he wants the status quo in order to keep the stability of the society, like accepting the things the way they are. It is understandable, since Confucius was born in turbulent era, where feudal lords past time was to rebel against the emperor and this rebellion use to cause more bad than good for commoners. So he thought maybe stability can be good for the commoners and society in large, because it will increase the production of food and increase the trade, hence improves the standard of living of everyone, achieving collective good by conformity. But this principle will not sit well with today's liberal democracies.

 

Another thing to consider is that commoners would not have known what it was like to be in the rulers' shoes. It's easy for people at the bottom of the ladder to look up and say their condition is unfair (e.g. students to teachers, employees to employers, citizens to government leaders, etc.) but Confucius also addressed the difficulties and pitfalls of leadership. He warned against the temptation of using power for one's own personal gain, and advocated moral education as a defence against corruption and despotism. I've recently started watching Hwarang - and while that drama is set in an earlier period (when Confucianism was not as influential due to sharing places with Taoism, Buddhism, etc.), there is this one line that I think best describes the ideal relationship between a king and his subjects according to the Confucian model: "The subjects can live without worries or sorrows because the king will worry for his subjects."

 

In short: a proper monarch would look to the good of society as a whole and make sure that the people are provided for, which would then foster public trust in the government.

 

That's also mini-Gyun Woo's main argument in the "Blind Mother Ruins Everything" pamphlet from My Sassy Girl: that if the Queen couldn't conduct herself as a proper wife and mother, how could the nation's women trust her to be able to guide their lives? Of course, his argument was wrong because the basis was wrong, but the actual logical progression was right and proper according to Confucian principles.

 

10 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Well, you can call this exploitation as a phase, where in the beginning minimum wages can be low, but as the time passes there will be growth in minimum wages which will eventual improve standard of living. It is something of a paradox what may seem to be exploitative in first world is empowering in third world, since most of the unskilled jobs are taken up by the women because traditional they have not bee allowed to have an education even till primary level, so these kind of low paying jobs are a way of achieving financial independence to them, but yeah in case of child labor it is robbing kids from their childhood.

 

I see. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Not that denying workers their proper wages and safety precautions is a good thing, but I suppose, in this day and age, some work/income is better than none - especially for marginalized and hitherto financially dependent members of society.

 

9 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Here's the remake of Naeil's cantabile in Chinese version, if anyone is interested they can watch it watch it from (DRAMACOOL website), chances are there that this site might be blocked in few countries, but you'll never know

https://mydramalist.com/31265-cantabile-youth

 

Watched the attached trailer - and maybe it's because of the clips they chose to use, but it feels like a completely different drama  Like, where's "Nodame's" quirkiness, or "Chiaki's" gruffness (using the Japanese names to stand in for the characters regardless of version)? It feels more like your straight-up romance like this. But then again, it's just the trailer - maybe the drama itself is more comic.

[kireeti2]

11 minutes ago, kittyna said:

The subjects can live without worries or sorrows because the king will worry for his subjects

Well, it looks good on paper, but if we look closely King is not actually free to take decisions or has free will even in his personal matters. He relies on his advisors, and then as the share of advisor increases the corruption also increases with it. In drama they might show that king is all powerful and his word is law, but it was never the case, he depends upon various personnel, like for money and tax collection he might depend on finance minister, for military advice will depend upon his generals. Chances are there where these ministers and generals may mislead the king in various matters ranging from well being of his subjects to collection of taxes. It more like "Principle-Agent" theory of organization where agent(advisors) wields more power than principle(king). In theory I feel Confucius had done an excellent job, but in practice it kind of failed to bring the change which he anticipated.

21 minutes ago, kittyna said:

Watched the attached trailer - and maybe it's because of the clips they chose to use, but it feels like a completely different drama  Like, where's "Nodame's" quirkiness, or "Chiaki's" gruffness (using the Japanese names to stand in for the characters regardless of version)? It feels more like your straight-up romance like this. But then again, it's just the trailer - maybe the drama itself is more comic.

Lol! I saw the episode one of the drama, it's more or less like Korean and Japanese version, but Naeil's character seem to be more refined, I mean the female lead is not at all acting in childish way or gets excited every time she sees the male lead. I guess they are going with their own improvements in characters

24 minutes ago, kittyna said:

In short: a proper monarch would look to the good of society as a whole and make sure that the people are provided for, which would then foster public trust in the government.

Bhahaha.. Yeah right! I guess that's why mortality rate was so high in the era of monarchs, no matter which continent or kingdom, subjects were provided so much that they  died with happiness. I agree the with Confucius principles in terms of fostering moral principles in students along with proper education, but I do not subscribe his fanaticism with Monarch form of government, I mean he wanted to build a moral society using the most immoral form of government, because lets face it, a Monarch system being good to its subject is sheer  luck, as long as king is not only abled but also moral with empathy the kingdom will flourish, but even if one of these  features are missing then the  whole of the kingdom will suffer.

[kittyna]

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Well, it looks good on paper, but if we look closely King is not actually free to take decisions or has free will even in his personal matters. He relies on his advisors, and then as the share of advisor increases the corruption also increases with it. In drama they might show that king is all powerful and his word is law, but it was never the case, he depends upon various personnel, like for money and tax collection he might depend on finance minister, for military advice will depend upon his generals. Chances are there where these ministers and generals may mislead the king in various matters ranging from well being of his subjects to collection of taxes.

 

True - which is probably why so many dramas are about that tug-of-war between the King and his advisors, with different stories putting the "good" or "bad" on varying sides. 

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

In theory I feel Confucius had done an excellent job, but in practice it kind of failed to bring the change which he anticipated.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Bhahaha.. Yeah right! I guess that's why mortality rate was so high in the era of monarchs, no matter which continent or kingdom, subjects were provided so much that they  died with happiness.

 

lol - Which is why I've found that the philosophers and scholars and thinkers (regardless of culture or historical time period) that we remember tended to stay out of politics.  Moral, philosophical, or political ideals almost never play out as intended in real life, simply due to flaws inherent to human nature. So, say, democracy only works as well as each voter's interest in the common good; socialism or communism only work as well as the government's ability to really distribute goods and services fairly; a monarchy only works as well as the monarch and his/her advisors could truly care for the public's welfare; etc.

 

As for Confucianism, that only works as well as people can actually put the theory into practice - and the reality is that they can't. Confucius himself tries to distinguish between the "great" and "little" man - with the "great man" being his ideal moral scholarly gentleman and the "little" man being the person who either tries to do right but succumbs to human nature or just only cares for his/her own creature comforts. 

 

In attempts to even better understand the social, historical, and cultural context for future fic-writing, I did dig a little deeper into what was considered the ideal in Korean Confucianism during the Joseon dynasty. And it does appear to be the scholar who either gives up his chances at government advancement in order to focus on self-study and promoting education, or (in the event that he does have an official position) still chooses to live a simple, austere lifestyle outside of what little ostentation is absolutely required for life at court.

 

2 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

Lol! I saw the episode one of the drama, it's more or less like Korean and Japanese version, but Naeil's character seem to be more refined, I mean the female lead is not at all acting in childish way or gets excited every time she sees the male lead. I guess they are going with their own improvements in characters

 

So now I'm wondering: where is the contrast between the male and female leads in the Chinese version, then? Because whether we're talking about Chiaki and Nodame (Japanese) or Cha Yoo Jin and Seol Nae Il (Korean), their all-consuming love of music was what they held in common while their personalities were what made them so different (and, thus, so hilarious to watch).

 

I understand that the Chinese adaptation is probably working in accordance to what sells well to Chinese audiences, and that the more over-the-top humour of the Japanese and Korean versions may not translate well into other cultural contexts. But like I'd said before: I'm just going from what I saw in the trailer; I'm just surprised that the humour took a back seat to the the romance in the promotional materials. Like, I think I even saw a hug in there already - and the title change (Symphony of Love) also hints at a shift in focus.

 

Finally, a few updates on Instagram:

 

1. Workout post with Park Geon Il (not sure how they know each other, though)

 

2. A fan account that's just become active again after several years - Tons of candid or behind-the-scenes photos that I haven't seen before. However, I do think that the baby/childhood pictures should be taken with a grain of salt ("Joo Won" is a very common name in Korea - especially after he became famous - so children's pictures tagged with the name could very well just be of a normal kid).

 

Speaking of mix-ups due to his uber-common name - it's like the time someone once made a video claiming to show JW's house, car, etc. on YouTube (not a JW fan account, but just a general Hallyu one), and fans immediately noticed that the video-maker had confused JW with the character Kim Joo Won from the drama Secret Garden. Which was...bizarre, to say the least  And now that there's also a boy-love story or comic(?) with yet another character named Joo Won, just doing a simple tag search of JW's name on Instagram can end pretty hilariously.

[kireeti2]

8 hours ago, kittyna said:

(not sure how they know each other, though

Maybe it is because they are from same agency, not that joo won knows everyone from the agency, but if his fellow actor/actress have similar hobbies like going gym or golfing then we can expect joo won to have some kind of personal relationship( I guess clubbing is a non-stater to make friendship with JW)

[mystylee33]

38 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

Maybe it is because they are from same agency, not that joo won knows everyone from the agency, but if his fellow actor/actress have similar hobbies like going gym or golfing then we can expect joo won to have some kind of personal relationship( I guess clubbing is a non-stater to make friendship with JW)

Hi!  As I know they met when they are still both in army 2017 and they have the same unit in White Skull division, But Geonil got discharged first.. They have picture together during that time unfortunately I didn't saved it in my files

[kireeti2]

34 minutes ago, mystylee33 said:

Hi!  As I know they met when they are still both in army 2017 and they have the same unit in White Skull division, But Geonil got discharged first.. They have picture together during that time unfortunately I didn't saved it in my files

Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for the insights. I thought they were friends because  they are from same agency and got to same gym for workouts

[kireeti2]

A quick review of "Symphony's of Romance", first of all, female lead is character is not as naive as Nae-il . It as it's own similarities with Korean and Japanese version but more like important scenes, like Contest between A group and S group(at least up to episode 8 these iconic scenes are similar). But coming to development of characters and their relationships are totally different, this in not only for Leads, even for supporting characters they are very different and have their own sub-plots. And this drama focusing more on romantic angle more than comedic angle, so that's why I kind of feel like the relationship between leads is more appealing than in Joo won's drama. Heck even the A group conductor has his own romantic moments with Lead's ex (in case of Korean version they have totally skipped or fast forwarded it). And even Mini Mini- Hee version has her own sub-plot, therefore, due to these sub-plot at least in my case I was able to empathize with all the characters. And the relationship progress  between main leads is intriguing and convincing at the same time, it's not too fast or too slow, just the right amount of pace. With heavy heart I am writing this but this drama totally beats the Naeil's cantabile to the pulp. On the bright side the lack of romantic screen time in Naeil's Cantabile can be made up with this drama Like you they show the smallest details of their relationship in a subtle way, for instance, we know that Cha Yoo jin bought extra toothbrush for Nae-il, but in this show they actual show that male leads goes out to but the brush himself, and the scenes where they cook together, all these scenes made me more invested in their relationship than other supporting character relationship, otherwise it would have been ordinary like rest of the relationship.

Spoiler

( Again if you guys are interested you can watch it on "dramacool" site, I am hiding this because I don't know if it is legal to watch it on that  site and I don't want any trouble from authorities, it would look bad on my record

@kittyna Thanks for mentioning 'Miracle in cell no. 7' it was such a heartwarming movie and cast members performance was  moving 

 

[kireeti2]

Updates from "Alice" drama sets. Here's the post of kim Hee Seon posing for her food truck at the location. I think the guy in the last pic with her is joo won, I am really not familiar Joo won's back view, but the shape of the neck looks like Joo won's, maybe I am wrong, it can also be Kwak Si-Yung? Because joo won is the not only guy with 6 feet height in the drama 

Updates from Alice drama