[Drama 2007] Time Of Dog And Wolf 개와 늑대의 시간

[TTXFYoung]

I couldn't have put it better myself. It's the heart attachment this drama accomplishes that made the difference to me. I don't care how many cliches it has, it made me care for the characters and its plot entertained. A classical gem indeed. It was ahead of its time at certain things too. The set, and (god!) the thrills. Aish! They manipulated my emotions for the whole 15 episodes lol. First episode doesn't count.

I was as pleasantly surprised as you are by the relative liveliness of this thread XD I wonder if's due to the show's popularity or to the cast's popularity. You seem to be a fan of the drama. I'm happy I watched it. Didn't feel like I wasted my precious time. I don't know about the first IRIS but the second one sure isn't one tenth as good as TBWD to me.

@dr25:  Due to the show's popularity my dear 

Back at those days, I was so into the show and also, I admit, a big fan of Jun Ki. I experienced my fangirling time towards Jun Ki for few years.... Anyway, overall the drama itself nailed my heart, then until now I still love it a lot and don't mind to watch it all over again, while I skipped some dramas that Jun Ki had played so far. So its safe to say I am a big fan of this charismatic show.

I could give it a pass on all cliches that the drama has created, I just love all the characters with an interesting plot that got me so addicted through all 16 episodes.

In fact, the drama was supposed to have 20 episodes due to original script, but it was shortened left to 16 episodes because the following drama had a fixed day to broadcast, which was The Legend. Thanks to that, the plot was pushed so extremely fast and intense that to avoid all unnecessary scenes, which probably would slow down its spirit. Watching this drama always gives me the feeling kind of watching an action movie, and that makes TBDAW very different and unforgettable to me. 

 

[ecs707a]

Hi @evie7 @TTXFYoung @astrantia    

Thanks dear for taking the time to let us know you're reading. Glad to know we're causing some smiles. Ecs-shi is the left party here while I'm the typical fan in love with the drama. We didn't intend it to be so but somehow writing our thoughts on the show turned into a comparative analysis (in the most loose sense of the term). You might've noticed that already XD Please drop in with your insights whenever you feel like it. We'll be doing the whole drama and since you've watched it more than once, I'm sure we'll come (or have come) across some of your favorite scenes at some point

 

Lazy me stealing your tags.

I hope no one here is offended by my slightly irreverent take on it.  I can't help it.   It may not have 100% won me over (yet, at least), but I can assure you that I wouldn't spend so much time on something I didn't like.  (And I keep thinking I don't have that much to say, and it won't take that long to put something together, and then I do, and it does.  So...I'm still here, and that means something.)

 

 

@ecs707a 

I admit to laughing too much reading your post. I shouldn't since you mostly bashed my favorite set of episodes but truth be told. I'm trying to make this an every Tuesday thing so till tomorrow. Yeah..I tagged you to say just this. Feels weird.

Where did I bash anything?  It's really not my intention.  I just...see the humor in things very easily.  But that's usually been a plus for me in a drama.  If it's laughably bad, then I won't waste my time (and I probably won't laugh, either).  If it's overall good, but the occasional over-the-top moment strikes me as funny, I don't necessarily see that as a negative. 

Like I said, these two episodes were lots of fun, more fun than I expected, and I think that means it's growing on me.

I'm more or less planning on sticking to weekends.  Hope that works okay for you.

 

@ecs707a and @dr25, I'm enjoying reading your Project Between Dog and Wolf.  I'm just loving your insights,  yall are just cracking me up w/some of them.  I've watched this drama a few times, there is just something about it that makes me miss it from time to time. I was never team MG but am starting see him in a different light from reading your observations. But enough of my thoughts. It is fun to read yours. 

And...I'll just be over here in my corner, nursing my second lead syndrome.  Don't mind me.

Okay, maybe it's not even second lead syndrome, since I don't really care who ends up with whom.  But I clearly have a little Min Ki-bias going on.  Not something I expected, haha.

[dr25]

@ecs707a The thing is... I wasn't sure if 'more fun' to you meant more laughable moments. You said it's fun, when I kept reading to see why, I found that it has more funny moments in relation to the previous ones. And laughable moments were good signs. My bad. Although bashing isn't necessarily used in its most negative sense here either. I know you're not someone to point things out without good reason. That's why I laughed too. I thought, 'she has a point, it is funny, sadly'. So the bashing I used meant making fun, with a good reason, of some of the drama's most serious moments.

 (And I keep thinking I don't have that much to say, and it won't take that long to put something together, and then I do, and it does.  So...I'm still here, and that means something.) [...]

Like I said, these two episodes were lots of fun, more fun than I expected, and I think that means it's growing on me. [...]

 I clearly have a little Min Ki-bias going on.  Not something I expected, haha.

You know what legit statistics say, "7 out of 10 women fall for MG's charms".

Maybe uri MG is a first piece in a domino   

Edit:

As I was writing this my sister sneaked a peak at the folder where I keep my TBWD scaps. She made fun of MG's glasses looks, then of agent SH's hair. Now there's you and my sister 'bashing'.

_________

I've been meaning to say this for some time now. MBC's Official Youtube account has uploaded the full drama with English subs in full HD as of 2012. So we can legally stream this and share its links here without feeling like we're doing something wrong or endangering beloved Soompi. I love how it's been given the privilege of a classical along with shows like Queen Seondeuk. 

 

[Guest mj_13]

First time to post on this thread. It's been 8 years but still active. 

"due to the show's popularity or to the cast's popularity." It was due to show's popularity, as a time it aired, the issued of LJK " I am a Japanese" is still fresh and criticize. 

For an Action - thrilled drama., this is my # 1 drama. I can't compare this drama to IRIS, City Hunter or Healer, because for me this drama is well written. It's hard to explain how this drama it's like a perfection to me and some lines on this drama was still on my head and i value it.

[dr25]

This episode doesn't have a header capture because as it turns out I haven't taken any during my marathon. Apparently I was too eager to see what's gonna happen next, pausing to take one felt like. too. long. a. delay I couldn't afford XD Anyhow, I scanned thro Ep 7 and took 3 captures none of which fits here

 

Episode 7

I haaaait this! I keep on watching one episode after the other. I can’t stop. I lost control. This ONE is my favorite so far. I was at the edge of my seat the whole time. It gave the full story on what caused the opening scene. JW saw SH while he was rescuing her! *AAAAAAAA*

*Takes a deep breath*

The chain of big event(s) started with SH discovering Mao’s work plan at last. Upon that he decided that it’s his last day as a subordinate of his. Before he got the chance to shoot Mao, Mao asked him to protect his daughter, Ari. The shocking truth about his mother’s killer being his lover’s father whom he was introduced to before rendered him crazy. Really.. seen the look on his face ? Wanjun michusoo. One point counts for the writer is that SH never recognized Mao’s face as Ari’s dad before. Who remembers the face of their (short-term) childhood friend’s father? So thank you for being sensible writer-nim.

Kay/SH breakdown near the Han river

lol. A bit of an overreaction to Ari's bio dad news, hah?

While he was watching over JW, something he’s been doing anyway ever since he came to Korea and found that watch on his grave (what a weird thing I just said XD), a gang opposing both her fathers attacked her in an attempt to kidnap her. Who was watching? Right, uri SH/Kay. So he of course rushed to her rescue and while doing that his car fell into the ocean AND JW saw his face. Attending at the scene was MG who came too late for the fun. Thus missed seeing any of that and just embraced JW before she fully lose conscious.

 

Wait! The excitement isn’t over yet. What happened to Kay? Nobody knows but everybody cares. Mao was looking, Daddy was too, the Korean gang he encountered third. So…where is he? What happened to him? It is a truth universally acknowledged that every LJK drama has a scene where he drowns into deep waters, wounded. Still… despite it being a repetitive act my heart sank as he drowned. I might’ve even joined my hands in excitement and agony here and there throughout the episode

 

[Intersection before I mention the current shocking situation]

And through the stalking, he finds out that Min Ki and Ji Woo are together.  He knows that Min Ki liked her too, so not so surprising. It's hard being fake-dead. Your brother steals your girl and you can't do anything about it.

I was wrong. MG wasn’t the one meant for a heart break but my poor SH. He’s the tortured first lead AND the third-wheel. Ouch! This is too much! T___T Yet he brought it on himself. What did he think? She’ll wait for him til he gets back? Even if she did, would she trust him? Would anyone? He lied about a ‘life or death’ situation as we know . I wouldn’t trust him.

 

[Back to what happened to Kay]

He was treated by old halmonies who found him by the seashore. The next morning, we learn that he…wait for it…remembers nothing! Tada! I wholeheartedly forgive this major cliché because: most of those around him think he’s a gangster and those who know he isn’t think he died long time ago. This leaves us with an identity problem. That could get philosophical at any moment and I love that. The Korean gang (Spider gang) came to the old lady’s house and took him for a ride on their average gang torture storage. They’ll treat him as Mao’s right-hand man, will he live up to their expectation? If he believes he’s a gangster would he become one for real? Would he develop feelings of gratitude, during his state of memory loss, towards Mao if he saved him from the Korean gang before his father does? Can’t wait.

 

Lastly, allow me to pronounce a director crush. After the (relatively) realistic excellently-executed car chase I fell for the directing. Period. Bear in mind it was shot 8 years ago. The plane crash in 2006 Nodame Cantabile was a disgrace. 2014 Blood car hit scenes are forever a shame. Therefor, applause to old but gold.

 

You can tell he was rescued by some granny from the way she hanged his Samsung phone alongside his belt and pants. And look, she took extra care of the battery

 

Episode 8

[Marathon spree Day 4]

 

“Even if you lose your memory, I still remember you. You’re my son, Kay”, said Mao.

I was right! Writer-nim is so after my heart :D. Now.. how did we get to the conclusion above? The Korean gang that took Kay forced him to call his boss into their trap which he had no problem doing since he doesn’t remember this Mao guy anyhow. Mao knew it’s a trap but came still cuz he owes Kay two big favors. At the trap, an encounter took place and Kay killed the Korean gang president in defense of Mao’s life. On their way out Ah Hwa told Mao about Kay’s memory loss condition. To which he responded as mentioned before. YAAAAAY! Oppa got a promotion. Daddy was watching the friendly conversation between the two. It reassured him his son is safe and sound and so is his cover but he still doesn’t know about SH mental state. Excitement is killing me. We are left with two things, SH believing he’s a hardcore gangster thanks to muscle memory and current surrounding. The other thing is Daddy worrying about the lack of contact with his son. These two factors combined will lead to NIS doubting SH’s loyalty among other unexpected awesome complications I’m sure. The question is…what does the NIS do to those hold as traitors?

 

Let's take a moment to appreciate LJK's eye acting, shall we? This is the moment when Mao announced him second in command. The way he looks at Mao is different from before. He's still evaluating the situation since he remembers nothing but he's starting to genuinely like this man nonetheless. How he apparently cares for him, as he claims. The new gained status. The tabula rasa SH is allowed him some new opportunities his old self would've loathed. I love this! And of course he was given a new hairdo denoting the change. He's Kay now. Even between him and himself.

 

In addition to the previous important development we have another one with what JW saw the other episode, SH’s face. Her boyfriend thinks she’s delusional and that she longs for him too much to the point of seeing him in everyone she meets. Would’ve Awww-ed at this had MG not been so angry about it. She doesn’t buy his assumption immediately but she did eventually. However before she did, she tried drawing her savior’s face then, feeling like she can't take it anymore, she called (real) daddy to make sure who was the guy he sent. Daddy knew it was her on the other end although she didn’t say a word before hanging up. Missing his daughter, I guess, he drove to her house. Conveniently, he asked Kay to drive him there cuz, I assume, he doesn’t want new lads around his weakness and Kay he can trust her with. Thank you show for trying your best not to make things total coincidences. When he arrived Ari reluctantly agreed to talk with him for a second. She told him she gets what she couldn’t understand  as a child. His long trips and her mother’s worries. So what if she asked him to leave the organization, will he do it for her sake? Cuz it’s how he could become a good father to her. Of course the answer is…no. Therefore she has only one father, it isn’t him. What we get from this episode mostly can be summed in one sentence. Humanizing the villain.

He’s not an ungrateful $hit who would dump someone who served him as loyally as Kay did cuz he got hurt in the process. He accepted the Korean gang members into his gang after they became lost without a leader, without humiliating them or cutting their fingers (really?! XD). An entrance fee they were more than willing to pay. Also with his daughter. He isn’t calculating when it comes to her. He’s not the gang master, he’s just an ordinary father. He welcomed her with open arms after her 13 years of not-fully explained absence, then he respected her wishes to keep on living away from him while he could’ve forced her. Furthermore, he still protected her after she told him she wants nothing to do with him. And now…a phone call I’d personally consider insulting made him come running to her cuz she’s his daughter. No more no less. He’s like most of us in a that sense. Most importantly, not a total trash as we’ve thought all along. All that happened under Kay’s eyes, who btw smiles more often now. He had this (kyia-worthy) look in his eyes when JW saw him getting into the car as gangster daddy’s driver. If he doesn’t regain his memory soon I think I’ll start rooting for the baddie Kay over SH myself.

 

 

I shall note how Thailand wasn't chosen haphazardly. I'm not a Thai citizen therefore I tried my best not to base my opinion on whatever stereotyped image I might've subconsciously picked up. TBWD lead me to do some reading on human and drug trafficking in Thailand and the end result was that it ain't a lie as per Wikipedia, 1, 2, and many other sources. Kay's work during his time in Thailand was chosen based on that image. Big well-rooted Cheongbang gang headquarters as well. In 2003 the PM of Thailand announced a War on Drugs. If that says anything, it says there is a drug issue and everybody acknowledges that. The articles I listed gave plenty of reasons why. You may read them if you're interested but all I wanted to point out here is that Thailand wasn't chosen randomly or to gain We Shot Abroad boasting rights. In addition, the drama didn't just paint Thailand as a scary heaven for criminals. It gave a fair depiction. Thailand is where the love story in the show started. Where the hero spent his childhood. We've seen those beautiful places in which the shooting took place. 11 year old SH would ditch school to go play with his friends in the river. Nothing bad happened to him then. It's safe enough. All in all, I think the dram gave a balanced realistic image of Thailand. And heay the gang in Thailand consists mostly of Koreans XD How is that for a we-are-in-this-together message?

 

Well, when you put it in terms of possible death vs. getting fired...

I think my heart is bleeding a little for Min Ki.  So there, now I have a favorite character.  I probably did all along, but it's becoming a bit more clear.  It just seems like dad has always been a little more attentive to Soo Hyun over Min Ki.  You could chalk it up to feeling sorry for him, but over your own kid?  I think his heart is obviously in the right place, trying to keep Soo Hyun out of a dangerous situation, but the way he offers up his own son completely without hesitation...

I think there's no difference between MG and SH in being Mr. Kang's own sons. True, for us they are a family that came together over a night, but for the 3 (or 4 if we include the mother) of them they have been a real family for 13+ years. What makes an adopted child more of a real son than the biological one?! And if a person has a heart kind enough to take a stranger as his own flesh and blood imagine how much love his heart has for the one who has always been his son?

I went back to Ep 5. Scapped this just to show you that he did hesitate. You of all people should've noticed the look in his eyes lol. Also, I forgot that he offered his own job on top of MG's. If it's a matter of who favors whom then I guess he favors SH over himself. Like a real parent would do. Awwww

And the question was never the opposite.  I'm sure Min Ki would suck it up and take whatever punishment if it meant that Soo Hyun wasn't risking his life.  I'm not questioning that.  But it's the constant pitting one against the other in subtle and not-so-subtle ways that's getting to me. By their own dad, which I'm sure stings the most, but by other characters too.

Min Ki and dad, to add to what we talked about earlier:

• Two main scenes are relevant here.  First, the "How long will I have to compete with a dead guy?" conversation.  Poor guy.  He misunderstands what’s going on, but the sentiment is the same.  Dad really does seem to ignore him in favor of Soo Hyun.  For a good reason right now, granted, but still.
• Which probably leads to the second scene.  I guess dad really does care about Min Ki, since he played the kdrama dad card, the "Did you eat?” question.  You old softy.  Not good enough, though.  I think it may be starting to sink in that Soo Hyun is really dead to Min Ki, even though he's not to him.  It's bad enough to be passed over in favor of a sibling that's alive, but when he's dead?  Be a little more sensitive, dad.

You're invested in this That's the show's doing not necessarily the characters'. Therefore I don't hate dad. As I said before, since very early in the drama the two brothers are meant to be set against each other. This is just that piling up. The writers are smart. Very smart, with this one subplot at least. They created the most perfect situation for such bitter feelings to grow. They used the ironic dead/alive brother info skillfully to make us feel bad for MG because we understand his feelings, "competing against a ghost" that is, yet be somewhat okay with it, unless you're MG bias lol, because on the other hand father knows SH is alive and in constant danger so how in the world would he act as if he were not. I see what you mean. I totally feel for MG, it's absolutely justifiable and yes dad has been more attentive to SH ever since the undercover topic surfaced but still. That 'but still' feeling is what makes this story worth while.

On his first day at the International Affairs Department he stood in front of that monument addressing SH. The way dad and Teamleader put it makes it seem like a futile attempt on his side to take over SH’s place. Like out of jealousy not out of love. I disapprove of that assumption.

 

Like that!  See?  Haha. 

The thing is...MG isn't proving them wrong, sadly. Even if it weren't the case at start, him misunderstanding/misreading the situation as constantly comparing him to SH makes it worse. I think it's partly his fault. Why follow your brother into the NIS when it isn't your passion? God didn't create girls in the world but your brother's ex? And you thought your brother's department is awesome now that he died? I don't see how I can't compare him to his brother when he keeps following his brother's steps. I'm not saying he's a non-character or anything. I wouldn't dare! I'm saying it's too late now to ask for that MG.

• It occurs to me that Min Ki may feel closer to Soo Hyun by being with Ji Woo.  He can hang on to another part of his brother by being with her, while she feels like she has to let Soo Hyun go to be with Min Ki.  It's an interesting conflict.

See? It's his love for his brother that made him hang on to those parts of SH. That very way of expressing his love lead people to misunderstand his motives and eventually it's starting to lead him to misunderstand theirs too. I feel like he's not trusting Mr. Kang enough to be the loving father I think he is. I don't blame him but but but...

 

 

• When Ji Woo calls her dad, it's Soo Hyun that picks up the phone.  I really thought, given her state of mind in these episodes (seeing him everywhere, whether he's there or not), that she would recognize his voice!  I guess not.  Although I guess it's a moot point, since she sees him in the very next scene.  And he greets her with a smirk.  Haha.  How funny is it that amnesia-Soo Hyun smiles so much more than the normal one?

I think it's her current state of mind that prevented her from thinking, "Oh! SH's voice. It must be him". After all, MG talked some sense into her near that gallery, then again in the car. I doubt she'd give in to such thoughts. I was waiting for her to recognize his voice too but then I thought, even if she sensed the similarity, she'd probably think, "Oh it's my imagination again. This time I'm hearing SH everywhere". Twisted! Writers writers!

 

 

• We're back to the opening chase stuff.  That happened faster than I thought.  So we get to see what happens after he plunges into the water with his friend the elephant.  But...shouldn't the elephant float?  It looks like it's sinking.  Is it the chain that's weighing it down?  Is there some symbolism there?  Something about external forces dragging down their pure love something something.  Haha.  But they wouldn’t attach such importance to it and then make it disappear, right?  It’ll be back.  (It’ll pop back up?  I crack myself up.)

For me, the elephant simply stands for SH's old self. When that drowned, weighed by the chain or not, he lost his identity. That was our last time seeing SH as we know him. The one we saw from that point on is Kay. Even Kay doesn't know he's SH. Ha!; He wouldn't recognize the elephant if he saw it.

The list of scenes I feel a little guilty for laughing at continues to grow.  The sunset elephant scene, for one

Gonna write this now but don't see it till you're through with the drama. I feel it's somewhere between spoilfic and nonsensical if you read it now.

The sunset is the most significant time of the day in this drama called Time of Wolf and Dog. You see, I'm not as good as MinGi-yaa in explaining artworks but that TBWD would be the sunset. As MG gracefully mentioned in Ep3. Sunset is the time when you can't tell if the distant figure coming from afar is a friend (dog) or a foe (wolf). I know the elephant part is just my own assumption but if we add this to what I think the elephant stands for (SH's now lost identity), this scene can be labeled under legit foreshadowing. like the TBWD is about to start audience. Embrace yourselves. It was shown a few scenes before SH's amnesia.

 

• Amnesia makes him brave though.  And rather reckless too.  And that hug!  Oh, I imagine that would have elicited a different reaction had he known who he was hugging.

What are you talking about? SH has always been brave. When was he reckless? I don't remember. Didn't that shootout kinda forced itself on him? Kill or be killed kinda situation.

 

• Ooh, new second in command!  Is it possible that Mao knows that Soo Hyun was not quite what he seemed, and now sees the opportunity to get him fully on his side, now that he’s a blank slate?  Or is it as simple as what he said, that he saved him, he’s been loyal, etc.  Interesting.
• And he calls him son!  Way to confuse him. 

I had the same doubts as I was marathoning. Hehe another (does he know or not?) moments. I promise another character will make for yet another source by next week. I won't say who but I bet a billion won s/he will.

 

The thing that Min Ki didn't like the taste of before was cilantro?  Was it translated as something else before?  That struck me as funny for some reason.  And yes, cilantro is delicious.  Come over to the dark side, Min Ki.

I don't recall. I'm too lazy to go scan thru the 3 possible episodes where I think they said it but I have the second-best answer. MBC's official translation says cilantro too. I don't eat food with cilantro in it. I'm staying with MG-oppa in the light.

[ecs707a]

Last bits of 7-8 stuff before I go watch 9-10...

 

• Amnesia makes him brave though.  And rather reckless too.  And that hug!  Oh, I imagine that would have elicited a different reaction had he known who he was hugging.

What are you talking about? SH has always been brave. When was he reckless? I don't remember. Didn't that shootout kinda forced itself on him? Kill or be killed kinda situation.

Don't get all defensive!  Haha.  There there, of course he was brave.   It's just that now that he has no clue what's going on, it's got to take extra courage to keep pretending that he does, right?  As for the reckless part, I was actually referring to this:

The Korean gang that took Kay forced him to call his boss into their trap which he had no problem doing since he doesn’t remember this Mao guy anyhow.

That seems like a risky move since he has no idea who to trust here.  But really, how else was he going to get out of that situation?  He just made a decision far more quickly than I think I would have been able to with no information whatsoever.  Hence, brave and reckless.  But you're also right that he had very little choice.

 

Would’ve Awww-ed at this had MG not been so angry about it.

...

See? It's his love for his brother that made him hang on to those parts of SH. That very way of expressing his love lead people to misunderstand his motives and eventually it's starting to lead him to misunderstand theirs too. I feel like he's not trusting Mr. Kang enough to be the loving father I think he is. I don't blame him but but but...

You have to remember though that every time he yells at Ji Woo to just get over Soo Hyun already, he's yelling at himself to do the same thing, at least as much if not more.  He's clearly not dealing with his brother's death very well (and who would, really?) but no one seems to notice.  And it is an important distinction, that dad knows he’s alive.  He never had to suffer that irrevocable loss.  Being desperately worried about someone is awful too, and worse that he can’t share that with anyone, but because of that, he doesn’t see things the way that the rest of the characters do.  And I think there’s just a hint of recognition from him that that’s the case, but not a lot yet (ever? I'm probably reading too much into it, but I think it's interesting).

The other thing that I keep thinking as I've been watching the post-SH "death" episodes is that all of the cracks only show after SH's gone.  I agree that their family is a real family, the brothers are real brothers, dad is really dad to both.  I don't think Min Ki ever resented Soo Hyun when he was alive, but now that he's gone, he can't stop comparing himself to his brother.  Maybe he always did, but they had such a good relationship that none of that mattered before.  He does it to himself, but it does come from other people too at various times over the course of the drama.  He could take it before, but now he can't.  So you may be right that he misunderstands some things, but it makes sense. 

 

I think it's her current state of mind that prevented her from thinking, "Oh! SH's voice. It must be him". After all, MG talked some sense into her near that gallery, then again in the car. I doubt she'd give in to such thoughts. I was waiting for her to recognize his voice too but then I thought, even if she sensed the similarity, she'd probably think, "Oh it's my imagination again. This time I'm hearing SH everywhere". Twisted! Writers writers!

Yeah, I didn't think she would immediately know for sure it was him  But I did expect a little glimmer of doubt that it might be him.  I didn't buy her "oh, you were right, I was imagining seeing him" to Min Ki, lol.

 

And now, on to 9 and 10!

Something I want to discuss that kind of spans 7-10 is the Soo Hyun --> Kay transformation.  He falls right into the Kay version of himself, and it seems a little strange to me in a way.  Sure, he takes on the persona of the person he assumes that he was.  Gangster, trusted associate of Mao.  He was undercover, so there's no way to access the other version of himself for reference, lol.  Dad and the chief actually have a conversation about this, wherein they say that he has based Kay on the "fake personal information" that has was given for the undercover gig.  I think they meant that in a general sense, but if they meant that he actually had access to a file or something, that's even weirder.  Because then he would know it was fake, right?

But it's the essential personality traits and the invented backstory that leave me even more puzzled.  He just whips up some story about dead parents and whatever to Ji Woo at the restaurant like it's nothing.  So either he's thought about this a lot and knows it by heart now, even if he can't "remember" it, or he's really good at just making up stuff on the fly.  Either way, it was obviously off-putting for Ji Woo.  To the point that she decides to give up on him right then and there (for now, at least.  Still don't believe that's permanent).  As for the personality, it makes him a much more entertaining character, but where did that come from?  Conscious decision?  Or are we supposed to believe that this is who he would have been had his childhood not been so dramatically tragic?  Haha.  The only version of him that we ever saw was the serious, focused, kind of quiet one.  Although I guess we only see him post-tragedy #1 (father's death), so...maybe as a young child, he was smirky and rude like Kay is?  I'd like to see a smirky toddler flashback, please.  It's just that Kay is suddenly a fully formed entity, and I would have thought there might be a transition period where he was still figuring things out.  I can see how landing on a personality like that would seem like a good idea and might even be advantageous, as cocky can be useful when you've got a bunch of rowdy gangsters to keep in check.

But seriously, so many characters keep going around saying "he's different now" that I would have thought that someone might have clued him in on the fact that he's acting weird, and that maybe he should be a little suspicious.  Oh well.  I guess it serves to make the "you're not Kay" moment with dad more dramatic, huh?

Or alternatively, he doesn't have amnesia at all, and he's so undercover that no one even knows that he is.  I wouldn't put it past this show.   The thought has been in the back of my mind since he woke up.

Let's end this section with this epic smirk!

Add to the list of  things I was not supposed to laugh at: dad gets stabbed, falls down the down escalator, somehow gets back to the up escalator, goes up, and deposits himself at Soo Hyun's feet.  I just...how did he get to the up escalator?  Imagining how that happened...

The main thing that happened here was obviously dad getting stabbed.  Of course it had to happen right after the Min Ki-dad showdown finally happened.  Those are the kdrama rules, of course.   Still, poor puppy.

And the imagery employed by this drama is not heavy-handed AT ALL.  Nope.  So subtle, dad smiling proudly at Min Ki in the background, while he only realizes it too late.  Saaaad.

Oh Min Ki, my heart still breaks for you though.

For a large part of episode 10, I was kind of just letting the gang politics stuff just happen without trying to reason through it.  This type of thing does something to my brain where it's like I know I'll find out eventually, and maybe I'll care then, but how we got there just doesn't interest me.  I'll find out what happens when it happens, lol.  Brain turns off in the interim.  Meh.  I dislike that other gang that they bring in every couple of episodes just for gang drama.  I hope we're going somewhere with it that I care about ultimately.

And the ending, with the most ridiculous of misunderstandings brewing...another thing that seems more or less inevitable though.  It has to come back to fighting over the girl.

I kind of expected more of a reaction when Min Ki finally sees Soo Hyun.  We got this look:

and of course the fighting later back at headquarters.  Anger is expected.  There wasn't as much confusion and shock as I would have thought.  But since grief has a way of kind of overriding everything, I can understand that.  It all happened at the same time for him.

[TTXFYoung]

@ecs707a and @dr25 Thank you so much for all recaps. Reading them makes me want to re-watch the drama again.

 

I hope no one here is offended by my slightly irreverent take on it.  I can't help it.   It may not have 100% won me over (yet, at least), but I can assure you that I wouldn't spend so much time on something I didn't like.  (And I keep thinking I don't have that much to say, and it won't take that long to put something together, and then I do, and it does.  So...I'm still here, and that means something.)

I love reading all your slightly irreverent toward this drama, in fact I would probably think the same if I got to watch this show in 2015 like you guys. But maybe if you got to watch it together with us back at 8 years ago, the drama would probably have 100% won you over  ...  it had immediately impressed the audiences because of its fresh interesting plot that made it so different from the other Kdramas at that time. It got fans so obsessed especially after the ending, which I always value it as the best opening ending ever of all time with no doubt.

Although I was also unsatisfied with some scenes, which I had pointed out in our forum writing in my native langue, like what you guys are doing right here... but overall I loved every bit of it, for me until now its still the best drama in Lee Jun Ki's career. His acting was phenomenal in every role in this drama, SH - Kay and later a mixed SH/Kay. I still feel the pain every time I think of the scene when SH asked MK to shoot him after rescuing MK from the death... That scene was crazy and so obsessed. 

I also was so into Iljimae when the drama was airing, but I could not re-watch it like the way I replayed TBD&W, still don't remember how many time I have re-watched it...

 

 I kind of expected more of a reaction when Min Ki finally sees Soo Hyun.

I'm with you on that, I expected he would freeze for a while, not only MK but also the rest NIS team too... the death scene of Dady always has something that has not won me 100% yet, but... anyway... haha

I love 3 characters in this drama almost equally, SH/Kay of course, MK, and then MAO... (well even he was a bad gangster, but hard to not like him after what he had done for Kay...ha ha...)

[dr25]

Ode to Kay's most amusing cockiness. NIS agents or not, he doesn't give a $hit hehe

For the smirks collection...

Episode 9

I’m devastated! You might as well rip my heart out and trample all over it show, HUH!? There are no boundaries! Everyone is sacrifice -able for the story to get even more and more intense! I love-hate this! Get me a boring show that doesn’t mess with my emotions instead T______T

MG's face....

SH’s father died while trying to get his son out of the gang. What a honorable death at that. Stabbed, he was pushed off an escalator going downwards. What does he do? He still has things to say to SH. SH doesn’t know who he is yet. So the camera leaves us with Kay who for some reason he doesn’t quite get didn’t flee the scene. Seconds later, we see daddy emerging from the escalator going upwards. Struggling with his breathing still trying to tell So Hyun-aaa something. My heart! He wanted to help his son get his identity back so badly! Although another gangster killed him, it was pinned on Kay who stood there watching the old man. Before he could lean down to hear what he was striving to say, MG CAME! The latter jumped at Kay, beat him as hard as he could without taking a second to look at his face. Maybe he did look at it but, blinded by anger, he didn’t see his brother in the gangster who killed his dad. Same thing happened at the NIS HQ when MG stormed in saying he’ll kill Kay for killing his dad. Although I’m positive Kay doesn’t have any blood on his hand from this one. The one who stabbed Mr. Kang was the other gangster, and the one who I’m sure did something to daddy after he was admitted to the hospital was the general manger. The camera zoomed in to his face in that revealing old times way. Plus, it’d be easier for him if he’s the only one who knows the whole story. I suspect Roadrunner is in danger too now.

I'm no agent but I have no idea how this guy expects me to not see him as one when he's talking thru the hidden mic in his clothes in front of everyone. You're so undercover man, I wouldn't know.

Before the unfortunate incident, MG finally  introduced JW to his parents but daddy didn’t approve of her cuz her blood connection with Mao will make MG lose his job. Of course with MG jealousy of his supposedly dead brother, he didn’t even try to understand. I don’t like how narrow-minded this makes him look.  Sigh. Again and again he’s competing with a ghost.

 

JW also got to meet SH as Kay and even sit with him at the same table they sat at 2-3 years ago. This time however, she thinks there’s no way a low-life who considers her criminal father his father can be her beloved righteous SH. Good, now let’s see on episode 10 if the NIS would share the same opinion upon interrogating Kay.

 

I admire MG’s mom resolve. She was stronger than MG when things got tough.

 

Episode 10

 

This is unfair! I’m dying with excitement although not much happened. Only that those a few things were of great significance.

 

We got to know for sure, Roadrunner sold information that lead to SH’s mother death 15 years ago. General manager/Chief Jung used this piece of info to threaten him not to tell everyone that Kay = SH + memory loss. *sigh* I don’t know if I can trust Jung. It says how well-written/well-performed the character is. One can’t expect the head of NIS to be readable. Tension point number one. Is he getting SH back or is he not? What will happen if SH committed unforgivable crimes, even for a black agent, before he does? Will he hold him responsible? How? Kill him and add a star to the monument? That’s it?

 

Tension point number two, MG. God! I feel for his loss but his rashness is adding insult to injury. He doesn’t even know what he’s getting himself into. I hate this. MG is in the dark SooHyun-aa, help him! Find your memories fast and go back please.

 

That leads us to tension point number three. AHHAHAHAAHAHAH all that time spent next to JW. I was like…he might have the traditional memory back flashbacks at any second now. Darn it. AAHAHAHAH. And no he didn’t even when he stood in front of that Sharingan painting at her foster father’s resort. Or, I thought, maybe she’ll notice the tattoo on his arm as he treated the injury he got protecting her from those thugs. I could hardly care before about their dates or sweet time together. Now, however, I do. If anyone can bring back the SH in Kay, that would be SW. I wasn’t worried about Mao, he’ll live. Too early for the main villain’s exit . BUT STILL… I didn’t know how he was gonna make it, or at what cost. That was tension point number four.

Speaking of the Sharingan painting, here's another shot of the sunset.

As I said, I didn't know the significance of the painting. They kept putting emphasis on it and I kept missing the point. All that did was remind me of Obito Madara's Sharingan pattern. 

To conclude they have to make it to the special number five. That is the cliffhanger—Kay is face to face with MG at the Thai restaurant. The latter heard the former asking JW, who was there too cuz Thai restaurants are where people go when injured, if he can take her handkerchief as a token. Ooops!

 

 

 

• Amnesia makes him brave though.  And rather reckless too.  And that hug!  Oh, I imagine that would have elicited a different reaction had he known who he was hugging.

What are you talking about? SH has always been brave. When was he reckless? I don't remember. Didn't that shootout kinda forced itself on him? Kill or be killed kinda situation.

Don't get all defensive!  Haha.  There there, of course he was brave.   It's just that now that he has no clue what's going on, it's got to take extra courage to keep pretending that he does, right?  As for the reckless part, I was actually referring to this:

The Korean gang that took Kay forced him to call his boss into their trap which he had no problem doing since he doesn’t remember this Mao guy anyhow.

 

That seems like a risky move since he has no idea who to trust here.  But really, how else was he going to get out of that situation?  He just made a decision far more quickly than I think I would have been able to with no information whatsoever.  Hence, brave and reckless.  But you're also right that he had very little choice.

That obvious huh? XD I had this post-posting realization. Maybe my question should've been "When wasn't he brave and reckless?". In Ep 3 he dumped the mission assigned to him by the NIS to attack Mao alone as if great gang boss wouldn't have the necessary protection; in Ep 4 he thought leaching onto some random Mao subordinate would lead him to Mao. Which is not only brave and reckless but dumb as well. Had it not been for MG, JW, and Roadrunner's help, that move might've killed him. The list can go on...

 

 

Would’ve Awww-ed at this had MG not been so angry about it.

...

See? It's his love for his brother that made him hang on to those parts of SH. That very way of expressing his love lead people to misunderstand his motives and eventually it's starting to lead him to misunderstand theirs too. I feel like he's not trusting Mr. Kang enough to be the loving father I think he is. I don't blame him but but but...

 

You have to remember though that every time he yells at Ji Woo to just get over Soo Hyun already, he's yelling at himself to do the same thing, at least as much if not more.  He's clearly not dealing with his brother's death very well (and who would, really?) but no one seems to notice.  And it is an important distinction, that dad knows he’s alive.  He never had to suffer that irrevocable loss.  Being desperately worried about someone is awful too, and worse that he can’t share that with anyone, but because of that, he doesn’t see things the way that the rest of the characters do.  And I think there’s just a hint of recognition from him that that’s the case, but not a lot yet (ever? I'm probably reading too much into it, but I think it's interesting).

The other thing that I keep thinking as I've been watching the post-SH "death" episodes is that all of the cracks only show after SH's gone.  I agree that their family is a real family, the brothers are real brothers, dad is really dad to both.  I don't think Min Ki ever resented Soo Hyun when he was alive, but now that he's gone, he can't stop comparing himself to his brother.  Maybe he always did, but they had such a good relationship that none of that mattered before.  He does it to himself, but it does come from other people too at various times over the course of the drama.  He could take it before, but now he can't.  So you may be right that he misunderstands some things, but it makes sense. 

Quoting just to point out my favorite part of your commentary this week.

 

Something I want to discuss that kind of spans 7-10 is the Soo Hyun --> Kay transformation.  He falls right into the Kay version of himself, and it seems a little strange to me in a way.  Sure, he takes on the persona of the person he assumes that he was.  Gangster, trusted associate of Mao.  He was undercover, so there's no way to access the other version of himself for reference, lol.  Dad and the chief actually have a conversation about this, wherein they say that he has based Kay on the "fake personal information" that has was given for the undercover gig.  I think they meant that in a general sense, but if they meant that he actually had access to a file or something, that's even weirder.  Because then he would know it was fake, right?

This is the part I went back to Ep 9 for. I'm pretty sure they meant it in a general sense because I don't think his training instructs him to keep a copy of his fake identity info on him in whatever form. (Plus, after 2 years of living as Kay he must memorize that file by heart so no need to keep it). Even if he had something of the sort, he wouldn't leave it in a place where anyone can find it. So either they meant it in a general sense therefore Kay doesn't have such thing now. Or he actually has something of the sort but doesn't have access to it since he lost his memory. Either ways, he didn't/can't read/watch it.

 

But it's the essential personality traits and the invented backstory that leave me even more puzzled.  He just whips up some story about dead parents and whatever to Ji Woo at the restaurant like it's nothing.  So either he's thought about this a lot and knows it by heart now, even if he can't "remember" it, or he's really good at just making up stuff on the fly.  Either way, it was obviously off-putting for Ji Woo.  To the point that she decides to give up on him right then and there (for now, at least.  Still don't believe that's permanent).

The show didn't walk us step by step thru the process. We got to see, however, that Kay got himself acquainted with the necessary info one must know about himself. I didn't think he invented it, I thought his roommate Ah Hwa filled him in. He was with him back in Thailand so SH must've told him the invented background story back then. Now Ah Hwa just told Kay what SH told him before (what goes around comes around awesome cycle *_*). Since Mao advised both of them to keep his memory loss a secret, I'm sure he's believing and endorsing such story as a defense mechanism. He can't say something like, "Well, I'm not really sure but I was told so and so about myself". That might be the reason why we don't see him showing many expected signs of confusion; he can't afford showing weaknesses in his current surrounding nor falling into self-doubt.

 

But seriously, so many characters keep going around saying "he's different now" that I would have thought that someone might have clued him in on the fact that he's acting weird, and that maybe he should be a little suspicious.  [...]

Or alternatively, he doesn't have amnesia at all, and he's so undercover that no one even knows that he is.  I wouldn't put it past this show.  

Suspicious...hmm

Like suspicious of himself that he's actually an undercover NIS agent who made himself a place next to the man he now respects and consider his father only to destroy and kill him? Even thu he knows he's different now, what can he do about it?! He can't remember how he used to act therefore he can neither fake that nor worry about it. It's useless to worry about things you can't change. And of course one would act differently if he has amnesia so why get suspicious?

Is it a good thing? To expect such plot twists from a show?

 

First time to post on this thread. It's been 8 years but still active. 

"due to the show's popularity or to the cast's popularity." It was due to show's popularity, as a time it aired, the issued of LJK " I am a Japanese" is still fresh and criticize. 

For an Action - thrilled drama., this is my # 1 drama. I can't compare this drama to IRIS, City Hunter or Healer, because for me this drama is well written. It's hard to explain how this drama it's like a perfection to me and some lines on this drama was still on my head and i value it.

Welcome to the thread I've watched all four. Real spoilers ahead.

I don't know if a comparison is possible but I agree that this drama has a better ending than that of City Hunter. I can give you that. I also hated Kim Nana (the lead girl character). I care less for JW here than I do for the rest of the leads but still. She doesn't bother me as Kim Nana did. Healer is a type by itself; for me it's almost as good. TBWD has a faster pace. Less boring scenes as a result but maybe because I'm a writer Song fan I can't bring myself to say her work wasn't as amusing as TBWD. That's said, I totally see why you have such opinion. I'd love it if you can share the lines that stayed with you after all these years

 

@ecs707a and @dr25 Thank you so much for all recaps. Reading them makes me want to re-watch the drama again.

 

Although I was also unsatisfied with some scenes, which I had pointed out in our forum writing in my native langue, like what you guys are doing right here... but overall I loved every bit of it, for me until now its still the best drama in Lee Jun Ki's career. His acting was phenomenal in every role in this drama, SH - Kay and later a mixed SH/Kay.

 I kind of expected more of a reaction when Min Ki finally sees Soo Hyun.

I'm with you on that, I expected he would freeze for a while, not only MK but also the rest NIS team too... the death scene of Dady always has something that has not won me 100% yet, but... anyway... haha

I love 3 characters in this drama almost equally, SH/Kay of course, MK, and then MAO... (well even he was a bad gangster, but hard to not like him after what he had done for Kay...ha ha...)

You hit the nail on the head. Although for me, following LJK's career was in the reversed order (latest to older dramas) I second this. I've known him to be a decent actor after I watched Two Weeks but I kept my distance. I'm following him on Instagram so he's been in my almost daily newsfeed for sometime but I only considered myself a fan after watching TBWD. Like before, I wouldn't check the ratings of his current drama to see if it's doing okay even if I'm not watching or read every line Wikipedia has on him XD Haven't left a post/note of appreciation at his Soompi home yet but I'm intending to. Gonna watch Virgin Snow and the King's Clown soon too. I knew about these two movies before but I didn't care enough to watch them. Now I do

 

Honestly, at such scenes I end up assuming the writer's perspective. Following their line of thought through the way they choose to lead the drama. It kept me amused throughout the show. Like when MG didn't freeze or recognize SH when he saw him I was thinking, "So writers chose to pass on this golden opportunity for a reunion. Ummm let's see if you can create a better one". Doing that often made it easier for me to find excuses for them all the time No idea why I can do such thing with certain writers but not with others. I guess you could say the writers won me over 100% which made me quite forgiving

Edit:

This is perfect. LJK posted this to his insta today. Universal signs much? @Ecs-shi cover your ears

 

[ecs707a]

9 and 10 odds and ends before I go watch 11 and 12:

 

But seriously, so many characters keep going around saying "he's different now" that I would have thought that someone might have clued him in on the fact that he's acting weird, and that maybe he should be a little suspicious.  [...]

Suspicious...hmm

Like suspicious of himself that he's actually an undercover NIS agent who made himself a place next to the man he now respects and consider his father only to destroy and kill him? Even thu he knows he's different now, what can he do about it?! He can't remember how he used to act therefore he can neither fake that nor worry about it. It's useless to worry about things you can't change. And of course one would act differently if he has amnesia so why get suspicious?

No, more like suspicious that he's acting weird!  Haha.  I know he really can't do anything about it, but if I had amnesia, and tried to rebuild myself from what people told me, and then tons of people told me I was behaving strangely, I would be really self-conscious!  No, obviously he wouldn't suspect that he's a spy.  Just that he's different now from what he was then (recent past) and he might be curious about the "old" version of himself (which still isn't "him", precisely, but personality-wise, it's still pretty close.  Background, not at all, obviously.)

I don't necessarily think that someone with amnesia would act that differently, in terms of personality, and that was my main source of confusion.  I think it's not all that common to have a wholesale personality change occurring with amnesia (I know, I know.  Stop trying to apply real-world logic to dramas. ).  Hence my comment about the essential personality traits.  But I think it also applies to the brave/reckless conversation.

 

That obvious huh? XD I had this post-posting realization. Maybe my question should've been "When wasn't he brave and reckless?". In Ep 3 he dumped the mission assigned to him by the NIS to attack Mao alone as if great gang boss wouldn't have the necessary protection; in Ep 4 he thought leaching onto some random Mao subordinate would lead him to Mao. Which is not only brave and reckless but dumb as well. Had it not been for MG, JW, and Roadrunner's help, that move might've killed him. The list can go on...

He was always brave, but in a different way, to me.  I don't know that I would have described him as reckless before though.  Even his not-so-bright moves in the past were the result of his observation and consideration of the situation (his conclusions, on the other hand, we could question lol).  It's his nature to observe and process in that way, at least the way I saw it.  When thrown into a situation when he can't do that, when he knows nothing about either the present or the past, he's forced into a decision that struck me as reckless because of that.  But maybe my thinking is colored more by my initial impressions of that character, before he snapped and decided to go after Mao to begin with.  Like, early drama, pre-discovery of mom's killer's identity Soo Hyun.  It's also possible that I'm giving him too much credit here.

Is it a good thing? To expect such plot twists from a show?

I don't know!  It makes it a really entertaining show that it has such a crazy streak (maybe more than a streak?), but I'm a little worried that with the addition of more twists and whatever it's got up its sleeve that it'll just turn into a crazy mess.  It's already got just about every classic kdrama ingredient brewing away.  How much more can there be?  I suspect the answer is a lot.  Haha.

 

Episodes 11 and 12

I had so much trouble getting through these episodes.  Why is everyone so horrible and unlikable?  Ha.  Kay, you're a slimy, smarmy jerk.  Mustache, get a grip.  I'm so tired of both of you right now.  So I apologize if this is more ranty than usual.

Okay, I feel better.  Maybe now I can find some other things to discuss.

So, it took until now for me to realize that they all assume that Kay killed dad.  I was operating under the assumption that they knew the other guy did it, but they arrested Kay because he was there and connected to both the stabbing and the more general gang stuff they were there to investigate anyway.  Really?  There isn't a single security camera that's aimed at that giant, busy movie theater lobby?  They had no extra agents posted at various places just in case?  Okay.

I still find it difficult to believe that no one is really showing any signs of wondering if Kay is Soo Hyun (I mean of the important people: mostly Ji Woo and Min Ki).  This show is so big on showing the characters angsting over things that I thought there would be some scene where one or the other of them is somehow visibly wondering about it.  Like, longingly staring at an old photo while we see that they're thinking about a more recent encounter with Kay.  Haha.  This show picks and chooses what to be subtle about, I guess.  I'm glad we didn't have those scenes, but I find the extremes of alternately beating me over the head with things and ignoring others pretty annoying at times. 

Ji Woo is definitely thinking about it, but more in terms of seeing flashes of her time with Soo Hyun.  I read that as her simply remembering him, though, and still not doubting whether Kay could be Soo Hyun.  But the show kindly gives her a little expository speech where she says she can finally give up hope that Kay might be Soo Hyun.  Just in time, of course, for him to be in the middle of finding out that he is, in fact, Soo Hyun.  So dramatic, show. 

Min Ki, though.  Still so fixated on his new secret gig that all we see is him looking like he's about to snap, or maybe just collapse.  I guess there's no time to think about where that doppelganger came from.  And why does his declaration of love sound so much like a threat?  Haha.  “No matter whose daughter you are, I will love you all the same.”  No matter what you say, Ji Woo!  There's nothing you can do!  Isn't that romantic?

Mustache!

So Soo Hyun can finally connect Kay with his old self through that watch.  Always with the watches.  I feel like they do things a little too literally sometimes, lol.  We've clearly covered "time", both with the watches and the constant bringing up of the painting.  Where are the dogs and wolves, show?  Or some scene where someone can literally not tell who someone else is because it's too dark?  I'm waiting! (Or did we cover that already too, with the mask?)

So what time is the watch stopped at?  I didn't remember, and couldn't remember if that was supposed to have any significance in and of itself, so I screencapped it to try to remember.  I still don't know, but here it is!

The main thing that interested me in these episodes was Kay's reaction to finding out that he was Soo Hyun.  His reaction does make sense, in that he would probably cling to Kay as the only self he knows right now.  Since that probably didn't come easily to him either, I can understand why he wouldn't even want to consider an alternative just yet.  So he's extra-stubbornly being Kay at the time when he finds out that Ji Woo's dad was the one who ratted them out.  I thought it might be possible that this incident would be the thing that started him wavering a little, since he's already aware of his and Ji Woo's shared past.  I thought his insistence on being the one to take care of it might mean that he would hide him somewhere to stall for time while he tried to figure out who he really was.  But what actually happened was much more dramatic (of course!).  So we get the Ji Woo-dad version of the Soo Hyun-mom scene.  Okay, @dr25.  You were right.  It was a "don't shoot my dad/mom".    Which triggers the flood of memories.  Thank god.   I'm ready to be done with Kay now.

Oh, and the stuff I wrote about his personality!  Thanks for saying it, Ji Woo. “You two are very different. You guys have different jobs, and personalities...Kay, you are the opposite of Soo Hyun.”  Just thought that was funny after I just wrote a whole thing about that.

[dr25]

Exactly my feelings ajhushi. Thank you!

Episode 11

 

So Chief Jung does want to pull SH out. Or maybe…NIS last failure to stop the new product smuggling forced him to try pulling him out. We’ll see.

 

In sum, MG & JW are no more cuz, 1- As he and his new Outside Team were investigating Cheongbang he stumbled upon the fact that JW is Mao’s daughter. What does a trained agent do at such situations? Move with utmost discretion? No, confront her in the most unpleasant of ways. He kinda slammed her against a door asking, “Why did you hide it from me?! I would’ve loved you regardless of whose daughter you are”. She was taken aback for a second but then she shot, “How did you know?”. HA! Bye bye trust between a couple. 2- Again as he was investigating Cheongbang, Kay in particular, he with well-based doubts barged into the gallery where JW works, franticly checked random boxes looking for drugs. JW couldn’t take it, cuz if his claims were true then her good foster dad is in it too? She’s been used by both her fathers to smuggle drugs? Nah that can’t be. Trying to stop MG from continuing his random check, she slapped him across the face. Ouch! One thing lead to the other, she broke up with him. Okay…the thing about MG is… following his father’s death, he kinda lost it. I kept on scapping him previously cuz I loved how clean and neat and awesome he used to look. Now look at him:

Homeless style much?

Really, he has no breaks to keep him in check ever since his father ‘and brother’ passed away. (RIP dear Mr. Hang. It’s too empty without you. Now I know how important you were).

 

[Plot twist]

The boxes in the gallery had drugs hidden in them actually. MG was just unlucky to have chosen the wrong boxes to inspect. So yeah. Attitude does matter. For contrary to frantic MG, we had Kay who kept his calm even when MG was this close from finding the goods hidden under his nose. He watched everything without breaking a sweat. What nerves! He even demanded an apology. Had Roadrunner not been there to stop MG, Kay would’ve fought with him.

 

There’s a crucial must-discuss point here. SH’s readiness to become a gangster. We didn’t see him reflect on those gang bosses he ordered dead. Nor did we see him give a second thought to dragging JW into the drug smuggling business. He stated that his heart isn't pure like hers but he said that so objectively without the emotional weight. I feel like he’s gone to the other side completely. Also, back then, SH was everyone’s favorite, now he just has so many enemies because he’s boss’ favorite. When he got that message inviting him to a picnic at the Art Basement, I had no way of guessing who could’ve sent it. I thought maybe the one who gutted late Mr. Kang might’ve set a trap for him. Maybe Ah Hwa’s jealousy reached a point where he couldn’t control it thus he told someone about his memory loss. Maybe maybe maybe. So many possible enemies, I fear for Kay’s safety. So the question is…what is it that makes us who we are? Nature or nurture? He was a respectful righteous agent when his foster father was one, now that he’s Mao’s son, he became a cold-hearted criminal. How much of us is made by our memories? Former experiences? It really is a big question. Can’t wait to hear what you have to say about it @ecs-shi (I assume you're not buying the transformation in the first place to contemplate it, right?) or maybe you have so no further comments as this counts for an answer:

Oh, and the stuff I wrote about his personality!  Thanks for saying it, Ji Woo. “You two are very different. You guys have different jobs, and personalities...Kay, you are the opposite of Soo Hyun.”  Just thought that was funny after I just wrote a whole thing about that.

 

 

Episode 12

[ Marathon Spree Day 5]

Ajhushi you're growing on me. Your wise most needed observations are just...*hand on heart*

Can't you just listed to him MG?

 

I have a new favorite classical drama! One of the best memory loss recovery processes I’ve seen in a Kdrama. I l.o.v.e.d it! I freaking loved it.

 

First of all…God d@amn your stupidity Kay oppa! Why go tell Mao secret NIS agent thinks you’re one of them?! How idiotic of you!? I respect writer-nim for making him do that since of course he’d discuss something as big with the center of calmness in his life; the one who taught him who he is after he lost his memories but still…oppa that was soooo stupid. Aiiish!

 

Min gi-yaa managed to talk JW’s daddy into cooperating with them. JW also realized she was used by both her parents as an oblivious drug smuggler. Therefore, she, daddy, and MG were on the same page. That is to bring Cheongbang down. A thorough investigation of EB enterprise (Mao’s legal front) was their first move.  That of course provoked big boss back in Thailand to give orders: kill Mr. Suh. Cha cha cha cha!

 

Meanwhile, Kay was taken on yet another picnic thru his memories line at the basement. He was shown a recoding that I personally never saw. It was taken in 2005 during his training days to become Kay. Who was training him? Late Mr. Kang whom he called, “father”, by the end of the recording. Huf! He refuses to take what General Manger told him as facts. Who would?!

 

Wanting to make sure he’s not Lee So Hyun, probably cuz he didn’t want to be someone like SH, or maybe he just wanted to have a prove at hand that he isn’t in case gangster daddy figure demanded one. Anyhow, wanting to do so he sought Roadrunner’s help. From that he got a CD (I hate CDs cuz eventually someone is gonna find them). It contained info on LSH’s parents. Another key fact was the old watch Kay has on him. Lee SoHyun used to have one that looked exactly the same. Up until this point he hasn’t gotten as much as a fragment of his memory back leave alone the classical flashbacks. Nothing. Zero. Just pieces of info he learnt from several sources God knows if he can trust. On a whim he goes to JW, asks her if her dead lover who looked exactly like him had a watch. If its glass was broken. The watch doesn’t work right? To his surprise and hers the answer was positive. Before they could continue their conversation, MG arrived. A punch here, a push there, Kay who didn’t fight back went his own way. Poor thing looked like a wounded dog at that moment.

 

We’re not even near the peak of the events for this episode. Kay goes home with too much on his plate, looking like he just saw a ghost as Boss’ wife puts it. Seconds later, he and the rest of the boys were summoned. Mao breaks the news to them. It has been confirm, via his spy in the NIS *gasps*, Ari’s father is the one who rat on them. Orders from the organization are to kill him. The boss doesn’t miss the dilemma he’s faced with but no-longer-cool-headed Kay pleads that he get rid of Mr. Suh himself. Despite Ari’s dad initial objection, he insisted and hence got the job. I hate this! If he kills JW’s father then there’s no going back for him as SH. Even if the NIS pulled him out. That’s the point of no return. My heart can’t handle these misfortunes any more. I’m too young for this $hit.

 

In an attempt to dig in his gangster heals, ‘Kay’ shot Mr. Suh twice. Before he could finish the job, JW is in the room. She’s in his position 13+ years ago.

 

That brought old memories. The gun slipped from his trembling hands. He found himself running to the car and there he started remembering everything. I’ve waited ages for this moment to come. Welcome flashbacks.

The reason I love this memory recovery process dearly is because they took the road less traveled with it. The easy way to remember would be the sudden glimpses of memory sneaking into his current Kay conscious when he stood in front of all those familiar people in all those familiar places. I've seen that so many times enough to warmly welcom the refreshing change. I don't even mind the fact that they had to blind MG from recognizing his own brother to achieve that. Be it blinded by anger, grief, denial, or all of these. I'm just glad he didn't get an easy way out of his amnesia. He could appreciate his life as SH better I guess and stop being all, "Oh I'm too sad to live on without my revenge" and so.

 

 This show picks and chooses what to be subtle about, I guess.  I'm glad we didn't have those scenes, but I find the extremes of alternately beating me over the head with things and ignoring others pretty annoying at times.

It does indeed lol.

 

I had the same doubts as I was marathoning. Hehe another (does he know or not?) moments. I promise another character will make for yet another source by next week. I won't say who but I bet a billion won s/he will.

In case you were wondering...that was Chief Jung for me. I don't like this person; he clearly knows more than he's telling. Judging by your assumption about SH's fake amnesia, he must be your (does he know or not?).

 

So what time is the watch stopped at?  I didn't remember, and couldn't remember if that was supposed to have any significance in and of itself, so I screencapped it to try to remember.  I still don't know, but here it is!

I hadn't thought about it. Let's see...this watch originally belonged to SH's late (bio) father. SH's mom passed it on to him on the night she was murdered. Actually the reason it broke is because SH dropped it seconds before masked Mao came into the room and shot her. Here you go. The significance of the watch. SH's life stopped at the moment his mother died such wrongful death. 

I know I'm messing up the numeral order here but to keep the relational order intact I'm pushing our amnesia-personality discussion back to Ep 13 when Roadrunner adds his view on what caused SH's amnesia. Something I like to include after we get there

 

As usual I added my afterthoughts to the month old commentary in blue to differentiate them from my instant raw ones.

[ecs707a]

Previous episode discussion continued...

 

So what time is the watch stopped at?  I didn't remember, and couldn't remember if that was supposed to have any significance in and of itself, so I screencapped it to try to remember.  I still don't know, but here it is!

I hadn't thought about it. Let's see...this watch originally belonged to SH's late (bio) father. SH's mom passed it on to him on the night she was murdered. Actually the reason it broke is because SH dropped it seconds before masked Mao came into the room and shot her. Here you go. The significance of the watch. SH's life stopped at the moment his mother died such wrongful death. 

I know I'm messing up the numeral order here but to keep the relational order intact I'm pushing our amnesia-personality discussion back to Ep 13 when Roadrunner adds his view on what caused SH's amnesia. Something I like to include after we get there

I remembered the significance of the watch, but I couldn't remember what time it was stopped at (Soo Hyun asked Ji Woo, and it reminded me).  Or if the show was trying to make that mean something by itself.  Truthfully, I was a little worried that the watch was going to be stopped at some evening time that could be construed as "the time between dog and wolf", or dusk, haha.  You know I would have had to mock it mercilessly if that had been the case.   But no.  It's 11:10 PM-ish.  I knew it was night from remembering the scene when it stopped, but not the exact time.  Thanks, show, for not taking everything so literally.

There’s a crucial must-discuss point here. SH’s readiness to become a gangster. We didn’t see him reflect on those gang bosses he ordered dead. Nor did we see him give a second thought to dragging JW into the drug smuggling business. He stated that his heart isn't pure like hers but he said that so objectively without the emotional weight. I feel like he’s gone to the other side completely.

...

So the question is…what is it that makes us who we are? Nature or nurture? He was a respectful righteous agent when his foster father was one, now that he’s Mao’s son, he became a cold-hearted criminal. How much of us is made by our memories? Former experiences? It really is a big question. Can’t wait to hear what you have to say about it @ecs-shi (I assume you're not buying the transformation in the first place to contemplate it, right?) or maybe you have so no further comments as this counts for an answer:

Oh, and the stuff I wrote about his personality!  Thanks for saying it, Ji Woo. “You two are very different. You guys have different jobs, and personalities...Kay, you are the opposite of Soo Hyun.”  Just thought that was funny after I just wrote a whole thing about that.

You're right that I didn't quite buy the personality change.  But the fact that he so easily slipped into the gangster role makes a bit more sense to me.  Really, how different is it to be a gangster and a spy (in dramaland, anyway)?  There might actually be an overlapping skill set there, lol.  Especially if he's trained as a field agent, which we know he has.  (Of course, maybe he's forgotten some of that with the amnesia?  Haha.  But the physical side would remain, I'd think.  Muscle memory and all.)

He has gone to the other side, because he knows of no other side.  There are no doubts, because if Mao trusts him, then he must know what he's doing, right?  Mao trusts him right from the beginning of his new memories, and so Soo Hyun (now Kay) must have immediately trusted him too.  As much as he can at this point, anyway.  Thinking about it now, that move that I called so reckless might have rattled him more than I thought.  Maybe he was so grateful that he did ultimately make the right choice to call Mao and lure him into that trap that he rewarded Mao with his complete loyalty at a time when he is totally lost.  Mao was powerful enough to get them both out of that situation, he saw that Mao was willing to do that for him, and therefore he becomes that right hand man on the spot.  Bam.  Instant gangster transformation, lol.  That part makes some sense.  I still don't know why he has to be such an infuriatingly smirky and insufferable person now.  The only way I can justify the weird personality change aspects is if I assume that he did it consciously, thinking it would make him a better or more believable gangster.  Like I said here:

It's just that Kay is suddenly a fully formed entity, and I would have thought there might be a transition period where he was still figuring things out.  I can see how landing on a personality like that would seem like a good idea and might even be advantageous, as cocky can be useful when you've got a bunch of rowdy gangsters to keep in check.

Okay, I lied.  There's another possible explanation too.  Maybe it's just so he can smirk more.  It does always make me laugh when he does it, so maybe it's just for pure entertainment value.  Or it's the definitive signal that this is Kay and not Soo Hyun that we're seeing, just in case we're confused, haha.

 

Okay…the thing about MG is… following his father’s death, he kinda lost it. I kept on scapping him previously cuz I loved how clean and neat and awesome he used to look. Now look at him:

 

Homeless style much?

Ha. I have to comment on this too.  I had to screencap so many different scenes with him to find one where he looked kind of halfway decent.  I needed one to show what you're saying about his new messy look.  And my new nickname for him, at least until he shaves.  Poor guy. 

So how about I don't let them go to waste?  More scruffy, sad puppy:

The best of the rest, as it were. (Now let's get rid of that thing on your face, shall we?)

I think I'll just post this part separately this week because I may not have time this weekend to actually watch the next two episodes.  So I may be a couple of days late in posting my 13/14 thoughts.  We'll see.  But I can do this part now, at least.

[ecs707a]

Okay, finally caught up!  Sorry for the delay, @dr25.

Episodes 13 and 14

Soo Hyun's biological father, Mao, and gang stuff:

• We find out that bio-dad was an undercover agent too, and was killed by Cheongbang.  Was Mao involved?  I wasn't sure to begin with, but by the end of these episodes, it's pretty definite, isn't it?  Ordered by someone higher up, but order executed by Mao.  In any case, the higher-up gang leader guy (Jang?) is out, thanks to Soo Hyun and Mao.  Convenient that Soo Hyun can serve his own revenge purposes by still appearing to be loyal to Mao.
• I spent some time wondering what Soo Hyun's plans were regarding Mao.  He knows he's Soo Hyun for sure now, so he's back to being "Kay" again.  He still wants to take down Cheongbang and Mao, but it's not that simple.  I would be surprised if there isn't some nod to Mao's kindness and help during this time (and I'd probably be disappointed if there isn't).  I wondered if maybe Soo Hyun was willing to let him be, knowing that Mao is probably the lesser of several evils.  If we have to have a gang leader, why not have one with at least a little bit of a heart?  So it'll be interesting to see the ultimate outcome.  Mao is who he set out to kill (must avenge mom!) and why he's here to begin with, but things have gotten more complicated for sure.  However, Mao's a little suspicious of him now.  And Soo Hyun's in trouble by the end of 14 (thanks, Ji Woo!), so none of this may matter.  Who will have mercy on whom may be the better question.  (Or will anyone have mercy on anyone else?)
• And there's a NIS guy who's been passing info to Mao.  Were we supposed to know him when the reveal happened?  I totally did not recognize him. 

The slowly untangling mess of who knows what about Soo Hyun:

• Soo Hyun definitely knows that he is Soo Hyun now.  Important place to start.
• Ji Woo starts out these episodes pretty sure that Kay is Soo Hyun.  They meet, he keeps up the Kay thing, but slips when he mentions the elephant. Oops!  So he "fixes" it by planting the most vile kiss on her.  So maybe she still has a seed of doubt, even after the elephant thing.  Ew.  But she's persistent, and eventually gets more of the story from Ah Hwa, and eventually Min Ki.  So now she knows too.
• And lastly, Min Ki.  He starts out these episodes still sure that Kay cannot be Soo Hyun.  His face during the conversation with Ji Woo about the subject:
  
  "Don't kill him", huh?  She still chooses Soo Hyun over him, even as he's totally sure that Kay can't even be Soo Hyun.  Ouch.  But speaking of seeds of doubt, that conversation has got to be part of the reason why Min Ki went after Soo Hyun, leading to him getting caught, right?  Well, he has lots of reasons already (taking down Cheongbang, for dad's sake; he saw that nasty kiss, so for Ji Woo's sake and his own too, probably), but I wouldn't be surprised if he was more reckless than usual (which is kind of saying a lot for him, lol) because now, after hearing Ji Woo's conviction, he wants to see him up close again to confirm.  It really never entered his mind before as a possibility (for whatever reason haha), but now he needs to know.  And so he gets caught, and forced to ingest lots of Balloon.  Which gets him hiiiiigh (whee!), and somehow makes him finally consider that Kay might be Soo Hyun, lol.  Anyway, Soo Hyun confirms it for him too, so he should know now, right?  His reaction:
  
  But no.  He forgets most of it, or at least doesn't trust his drug-addled memory when he wakes up.  So he gets to hear it all again.
  
  (His skeptical face cracks me up.)  And thank god, because it's about time someone filled him in. 

The aftermath:

• Fight scene!  Woo hoo!  Haha.  I totally tune out action in the form of car chases and big battle scenes and stuff like that, but a good one-on-one, emotionally charged, bloody face-off is like crack to me.  So thanks for that, drama.  Haha.
  
  The boys work through it all pretty fast though.  I guess we've got to keep moving if there are only 2 episodes left, but I would have liked to spend a little more time with the two of them together.  Oh well.
• Ji Woo is not happy that everyone was keeping her in the dark.  But who was going to tell her?  She kind of knew more than Min Ki up until the very last stages of this stuff.  But even they seem to work most of their problems out by the end of 14 for Soo Hyun's sake.
• But of course, things never go as planned.  Ji Woo gets involved when she finds out that Soo Hyun is in danger anyway.  She uses her position as Mao's daughter to get the other gangsters to back off.  And I'm with her, right up until she SAYS HIS NAME!  Use your head, girl.  Suspicious gangster turns back at the name "Soo Hyun".  Shots fired!  Episode end.  Haha.

[dr25]

 

Don't cry so bitterly. It hurts my heart!

Episode 13

 

Just when I thought we’re having a peaceful episode again.. Seriously, too much feels I hate it. Stop making me worry so much show. I don’t have much to say about the mother of breakdowns SH went thru upon regaining his memories. Whatever I say doesn’t even begin to describe it. One have to watch the real thing to oversee the Feeeels.

 

SH's first thought was to kill himself, then Roadrunner talked him into leaving the country, however Chief Jung stopped him and talked him thru the facts; if he leaves, JW will forever be in danger. That among other important facts I didn’t register cuz Chief is too b!tchi I can’t bear to hear his voice. As a result, Kay is back. ( I forced myself to go back to it. Turns out Mao Killed SH's biological father, according to the Chief).

 

Orders came to punish Kay who returned ready to accept his punishment but argued still against blindly following the orders, “What if the next order was to kill lady Ari?!”, he said. The peaceful moment illusion I had was created by the new victory Kay had within the Cheongbang. He, Mao and Grffiti (?) killed the big boss back in Thailand. Now Mao is the big boss.

 

Thankfully Mr. Suh isn’t dead nor critically injured, thank God! JW met with Kay to ask him about LSH’s watch incident. How did he know? I won’t go into details but she has the ‘feeling’ he’s SH. Like dead sure feel he’s SH. The latter did everything he could to change how she ‘feels’ about the matter including a forced violent kiss. Hurr/lol

 

MG tailed Kay to a club where a deal was taking place. Somebody noticed him and brought him in front of Kay for punishment. Boss said to drug him in order to get info out of him. SH couldn’t do a thing. AIISH the look on his face. He stood there watching his hyung being abused. That’s until drugged MG started calling him Soo Hyun-aa! SH could only stop him by beating him senseless lol. In between punches he whispered in MG’s ear, “MinGi-yaa get a grip. I’m SoHyun-aa”. Oh crap. Give me the next episode. ASAP

 

Episode 14

 

Thought this shot was pretty *_*

I’m going in circles, writing my thoughts on the events of this drama is basically repeating myself. All I can do is a semi-recap of the events. Really. During the last a few episodes all I’ve been feeling is excitement then tension, or tension then excitement. There’s no point in stating how I feel cuz it has been practically the same for two days now.

 

The events are as follows:

1- Ming Gi-yaaa is in the secret circle now. Finally. Happy reunion brothers! I missed you together guys. T____T I’m happy I might cry.

Awwwww! Bromance again!

Soooooo stupid! My God! Your dead brother came to life as an undercover gangster and you actually save his number under his REAL name! Yaaa! Min Gi-yaaaaaa!

2- We know JW has a habit of checking other people’s phones XD It lead her to be in the secret circle too. Yaaaaaaaaaaay More the better. My favorite characters are on the same side again. But suppose the one who checked your phone, MG, weren't a friend but an enemy?! tsk tsk.

It scares me too! Too much fear for everyone's safety I hate it. T__T

3- Because Kay didn’t kill MG, Mao started suspecting him. So petty followers whom I care not remember their names found it their golden chance to ‘frame’ him as a spy, so they thought. LOL really, he almost died not because they realized he’s a spy but because they framed him as one since he proved to them that he isn’t. *APPLUASE* Kay!

Oh! I take it back oppa, you're not as stupid as I thought you were. My apologies.

4- So the two gangsters agreed to frame Kay as a spy. While they were at getting rid of him, JW interrupted them. I love how she used her power as their boss’ daughter to save him although she tried to distant herself from that fact all her life. It’s like she’ll do anything for SH. Aww.

 

 

Okay, finally caught up!  Sorry for the delay, @dr25.

It's fine I'm late myself.

 

And there's a NIS guy who's been passing info to Mao.  Were we supposed to know him when the reveal happened?  I totally did not recognize him.

Me neither. I thought maybe Chief Jung was the spy. My distrust of him has been established on many occasions already lol.

 

Ji Woo starts out these episodes pretty sure that Kay is Soo Hyun.  They meet, he keeps up the Kay thing, but slips when he mentions the elephant. Oops!  So he "fixes" it by planting the most vile kiss on her.  So maybe she still has a seed of doubt, even after the elephant thing.  Ew.  But

she's persistent, and eventually gets more of the story from Ah Hwa, and eventually Min Ki.  So now she knows too.

[...]  

Ji Woo gets involved

when she finds out that Soo Hyun is in danger anyway.  She uses her position as Mao's daughter to get the other gangsters to back off.  And I'm with her, right up until

she SAYS HIS NAME!

  Use your head, girl.  Suspicious gangster turns back at the name "Soo Hyun".  Shots fired!  Episode end.  Haha.

I know why I like SH, MG, Roadrunner ajhushi. I have no idea thu how I don't find JW annoying. I think I talked myself into it, "If I allow myself to be annoyed with her, I won't be able to enjoy the show especially since she's at the center of it all. Plus, remember... you like the actress". At moments like these I'm this close from considering her sooo. darn. annoying. I don't necessarly find the results of her interference(s) as annoying thu lol. The confusion her sudden attachment to 'Kay' creates amuses me. Mao asked Kay a couple of times if his sudden detachment (due to memory loss issues) has to do with his daughter Ari. I was so waiting for Mao to declare them a ship lol. His most trusted man marrying his daughter. Being next to Kay for some time softened her heart towards gangster daddy, Mao must've noticed that too. Aish wasted opportunity. I would've loved that pairing. It caught the Stepmother's eye too. Enough to push her jealousy buttons lol to the point of forcefully kissing Kay! I was kinda worried he'd accept her attempts. Imagine the chaos. As if this show needs more of it. On one hand I wondered where that jealousy came from. What is Kay to her again? On the other, I'm not that surprised. She always had subtle but constant interest in Kay. Taking him shopping with her, I'm sure there are many other 'trustworthy' lads whom she can take other than him. Buying him suits he didn't ask for. She never treated him like one of the other underlings. They live together for God's sake. None of them dares to dine with her on the same table like Kay did when they met JW properly for the first time. So I understand that, kinda. Anyhow, JW, for confusing everyone, your interference(s) are forgiven. 

 

And lastly, Min Ki.  He starts out these episodes still sure that Kay cannot be Soo Hyun.  His face during the conversation with Ji Woo about the subject:
[...]
"Don't kill him", huh?  She still chooses Soo Hyun over him, even as he's totally sure that Kay can't even be Soo Hyun.  Ouch. 

[...]

AH!  Poor man. JW got herself a new boyfriend, Mom is a strong woman she held her ground and late foster father, well, he knows he didn't lose SH. Only MG had it tough because of this. Becoming the most damaged person among them. I can't be more happy for him. Finally, no longer fighting a ghost. 

 

Fight scene!  Woo hoo!  Haha.  I totally tune out action in the form of car chases and big battle scenes and stuff like that, but a good one-on-one, emotionally charged, bloody face-off is like crack to me.  So thanks for that, drama.  Haha.

Did you notice the sunset in the background..

In case we didn't notice...we were given another shot:

(I like both shots so I'm making excuses to post them )

 

Now let's discuss the personality change in SH/ Kay...

 

I still don't know why he has to be such an infuriatingly smirky and insufferable person now.

 

The only way I can justify the weird personality change aspects is if I assume that he did it consciously, thinking it would make him a better or more believable gangster.

  Like I said here:

It's just that Kay is suddenly a fully formed entity, and I would have thought there might be a transition period where he was still figuring things out.  I can see how landing on a personality like that would seem like a good idea and might even be advantageous, as cocky can be useful when you've got a bunch of rowdy gangsters to keep in check.

Okay, I lied.  There's another possible explanation too.  Maybe it's just so he can smirk more.  It does always make me laugh when he does it, so maybe it's just for pure entertainment value.  Or it's the definitive signal that this is Kay and not Soo Hyun that we're seeing, just in case we're confused, haha.

Okay...I have thought the personality change thing over, something I didn't mind before you pointed it out. One problem here is that we're not familiar with the writers work to tell whether they're the lazy type who would allow such hole in their build up of the main character or if they're the nerdy type who tend to have their good reasons, one just have to dig deeper to find them. Since your reasoning pretty much covers the first possibility, I'll be covering the second. For argument sake.

One reason the personality change is hard to buy has to do with the fact that amnesia doesn't change a person's character. Another fact presents a good reason why SH's transformation into Kay is actually not that unbelievable:

 

I extracted this from a lengthy study. While amnesia doesn't change a person's personality, head injury might do. Here's a more detailed table showing the exact aspects of change:

If the writers did their research properly, then they probably had these kind of facts in mind while sketching Kay. Smirks can go under the increase in childish behavior XD. Other sources: (1, 2). The details vary but the gist is the same; head injuries, like the one SH received, can cause personality change while the cognitive and the physical status remains mostly unchanged.

You said and JW said that Kay and SH are each other opposite. Meaning the contrast was deliberately drawn. The writers wanted us to see the drastic change. They even gave a psychological reason via Roadrunner ajhushi: it's not that SH couldn't remember, it's more like he didn't want to remember his life as SH. So we have him, subconsciously, being the opposite of his old self. He laughs more unlike serious SH as Mao once observed (the way "pre-tragedy #1" SH could've been), he's no longer the quiet decent SH but the "infuriating" Kay with his cocky vivid personality. In earlier episodes, SH expressed his feelings of entrapment, Kay is his escape vehicle I'd say. I mean, really, which is worse? Being an NIS agent or a killer gangster? I as an average person will take the former. Kay, however, when given the choice to being either, (around episodes 10-13 when he couldn't remember a thing but saw clearly the possibility of being either) refused being agent SH with all his might. Till mighty flashbacks flooded in. One reason why must be his attachment to his current not easily gained life as you suggested. It could also be that deep down he didn't want to go back to his old tortured self burdened by revenge and traumas and whatnot.

Some characteristics remained thu. Being the best son to whatever father figure he has. The top on his class either at the NIS or the Cheongbang as deputy Boss XD.

I'm not saying any of this to convince you of anything. I'm more like convincing myself. I hate discussing things with individuals who think they figured everything out and it's therefore their 'duty' to make others see. I'm not doing that to you nor to myself. I just like exploring possibilities and my overthinking nature makes me put maybe too much effort into it.

P. S: I'm not infuriated by the way Kay carries himself or treats others. I like him a lot actually. His half-cynical half-easygoing way is a point of attraction XD A part (very tiny part) of me enjoyed seeing him driving MG-yaa crazy (oops). We couldn't have gotten the one-on-one fight had he not lol.

[ecs707a]

 

she's persistent, and eventually gets more of the story from Ah Hwa, and eventually Min Ki.  So now she knows too.

[...]  

Ji Woo gets involved

when she finds out that Soo Hyun is in danger anyway.  She uses her position as Mao's daughter to get the other gangsters to back off.  And I'm with her, right up until

she SAYS HIS NAME!

  Use your head, girl.  Suspicious gangster turns back at the name "Soo Hyun".  Shots fired!  Episode end.  Haha.

I know why I like SH, MG, Roadrunner ajhushi. I have no idea thu how I don't find JW annoying. I think I talked myself into it, "If I allow myself to be annoyed with her, I won't be able to enjoy the show especially since she's at the center of it all. Plus, remember... you like the actress". At moments like these I'm this close from considering her sooo. darn. annoying. I don't necessarly find the results of her interference(s) as annoying thu lol.

Surprisingly, I don't really find her annoying.  At least she's a heroine that does something instead of just waiting around for things to happen.  Even if she does rash and misguided things sometimes (most of the time?).  She's no worse than either Soo Hyun or Min Ki in that respect.  The thing that annoys me a little about her is how tenuously she was connected to everything and everyone for a while.  It's almost as if Min Ki had to date her to keep her connected to the story.  And I know she worked on the project with the dads, but it always felt like she was sort of an afterthought in the story (and that whole thing was kind of boring anyway).  Oh well.  I don't hate her at all.  I read some comments or reviews of this drama somewhere recently, and there were a lot that really, really hated her.  Does she suddenly get much more worthy of that vitriol in the last 2 eps?  I guess I'm about to find out.

I extracted this from a lengthy

study

. While

amnesia doesn't change a person's personality, head injury might do

. Here's a more detailed table showing the exact aspects of change:

If the writers did their research properly, then they probably had these kind of facts in mind while sketching Kay. Smirks can go under the increase in childish behavior XD. Other sources: (1, 2). The details vary but the gist is the same; head injuries, like the one SH received, can cause personality change while the cognitive and the physical status remains mostly unchanged.

You said and JW said that Kay and SH are each other opposite. Meaning the contrast was deliberately drawn. The writers wanted us to see the drastic change. They even gave a psychological reason via Roadrunner ajhushi: it's not that SH couldn't remember, it's more like he didn't want to remember his life as SH. So we have him, subconsciously, being the opposite of his old self. He laughs more unlike serious SH as Mao once observed (the way "pre-tragedy #1" SH could've been), he's no longer the quiet decent SH but the "infuriating" Kay with his cocky vivid personality. In earlier episodes, SH expressed his feelings of entrapment, Kay is his escape vehicle I'd say. I mean, really, which is worse? Being an NIS agent or a killer gangster? I as an average person will take the former. Kay, however, when given the choice to being either, (around episodes 10-13 when he couldn't remember a thing but saw clearly the possibility of being either) refused being agent SH with all his might. Till mighty flashbacks flooded in. One reason why must be his attachment to his current not easily gained life as you suggested. It could also be that deep down he didn't want to go back to his old tortured self burdened by revenge and traumas and whatnot.

Some characteristics remained thu. Being the best son to whatever father figure he has. The top on his class either at the NIS or the Cheongbang as deputy Boss XD.

I'm not saying any of this to convince you of anything. I'm more like convincing myself. I hate discussing things with individuals who think they figured everything out and it's therefore their 'duty' to make others see. I'm not doing that to you nor to myself. I just like exploring possibilities and my overthinking nature makes me put maybe too much effort into it.

P. S: I'm not infuriated by the way Kay carries himself or treats others. I like him a lot actually. His half-cynical half-easygoing way is a point of attraction XD A part (very tiny part) of me enjoyed seeing him driving MG-yaa crazy (oops). We couldn't have gotten the one-on-one fight had he not lol.

Did you consult the literature?  I could hug you right now.  Haha.  I didn't expect to see tables of t-tests here.  (Confession time!  When we first started talking about this several episodes ago, I did the same thing.  But I didn't have access to the the full-text version of the article I wanted to read, so I just dropped it.  You are not alone in your overthinking and researching tendencies.)

You're right.  There are three factors here.  Amnesia, head injury, and personality changes.  Confounding factors.  I guess I was thinking more in terms of personality changes as a result of amnesia alone, without considering the traumatic brain injury.  Retrograde amnesia itself apparently doesn't cause personality changes very frequently.  But you're right that a head injury might. 

I didn't really buy the armchair psychology "intentional/subconscious forgetting" theory, either.  So maybe it's harder for me to excuse it for that reason too.

And on top of that, I mostly just wanted to punch smirky Kay in the face, lol.  So, not a point of attraction for me.

So I guess in summary, the amnesia still drives me crazy.  But they wrote it in such a way that there are reasons, even if I don't like them, and I can respect that.

I would disagree, though, that the fight wouldn't have taken place without Soo Hyun/Kay's smirkiness (I do enjoy that I can use this as a shorthand, and everyone knows what I mean, haha).  I think it would have happened regardless.  Even if it wasn't his fault, even if so much of it was beyond his control, even if he did it for a reason that meant a lot to him, the fact remains that Soo Hyun was never dead.  Just that would be enough to make Min Ki feel totally betrayed and angry enough to fight, I would think.  Whatever happened in the interim.  Soo Hyun made that choice, and it hurt a lot of people.

 

Fight scene!  Woo hoo!  Haha.  I totally tune out action in the form of car chases and big battle scenes and stuff like that, but a good one-on-one, emotionally charged, bloody face-off is like crack to me.  So thanks for that, drama.  Haha.

Did you notice the sunset in the background..

Well, of course. It's so pink, how could I not notice?  I have another one too that I didn't post last time.

Are they looking at each other because they're trying to decide if the other is dog or wolf? 

Oh, show.

Now, to go watch episodes 15 and 16.

 

Oh my. 

Okay then...episodes 15 and 16!

Optional musical accompaniments to this post, or "the alternate soundtrack to these episodes according to my head" (warning: very, very tangential to the topic)...

Thanks, show, for bringing The Neverending Story into this.  Because of course my brain goes right here (the song and the movie):

That reference was so random.  I never did read the book though.  Maybe I should.

And a couple of the songs they used as background music really, really remind me of this old xbox game, Deathrow.  Of course.

Just for fun, in case anyone wanted to know what was going on inside my head: these two were the specific songs.  And now I want to play that game again. 

Did I just connect a kdrama with a trippy kid's movie and an obscure video game?  Yes, I did.

Yeah, gotta say this first.  What kind of wacky final episode was that???  I made so many involuntary noises from all the fakeouts that at one point I startled my cat so badly that I made her do the thing where she forgets to put her tongue back in her mouth.  Yeah.

So, where to begin with these two episodes?  I have no idea.  I think there's no organization for this one, lol.  Excuse the mess.

• Ha, my comment about Ji Woo doing something that would make her more worthy of hate?  Well, telling Mao to turn around while Soo Hyun has a gun pointed at his back doesn't exactly endear her to the audience, does it?  Oh well.  He gets out of it, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
• And how many times did Soo Hyun almost kill Mao in these episodes?  Have a gun pointed at him and then chicken out?  During the one attempt, when Ji Woo suddenly entering the room made him chicken out again, it was like he needed that reminder again.  That's her dad, and she's in the same house as you.  Do you think that's going to end well?  Attempt to kill one dad in front of her, and then the other?  Haha.  Well, it scared him out of it, anyway.
• At the "art auction", just the fact that that particular painting got so much bidding attention should have set off some alarm bells, shouldn't it?
  
  Like grandma's wallpaper with a weird saying just for fun, "Never has a flower been a flower."  At some point Ji Woo looked kind of confused, like she wondered why everyone was so wild about this painting.  She's the art expert, so maybe that's why?  She shares my opinion that no one in their right mind would want to hang that on their wall?  Well, I guess no one did anyway. 
• Ahjussi.  Min Ki will take good care of your headband.  Don't worry. *sniffle*
  
• After getting Cheongbang's drug production facility raided, Soo Hyun then steals the USB with the bank account info (or so he thinks, at least).  I did not expect that the fake was a bomb!  Sorry chief.
• And so Mao knows that someone is definitely spying on him, and is pretty damn sure that it's Soo Hyun/Kay.  Which finally brings us to the beginning of the crazy in the finale.  But first, I did really like the scene before Soo Hyun goes.  There's always something about the brother scenes that gets to me. 
  
  "Don't go, Soo Hyun!"
• But of course he does.  Off to the warehouse of abandoned mirrors or something.  (What is this place, seriously?)  First step, take out Giraffe (who does talk, apparently).  Then onto Mao.
  
  So many mirrors, lol.  Okay, so Mao was dad's friend, and it scarred him for life to have killed him, being both the first person he ever killed, and his best friend on top of that.  Mao finds out that Soo Hyun is his friend's son, and that he not only killed Soo Hyun's dad, but also his mom.  Everyone knows everything.  Everyone shoots everyone else, and both of them die.  Or do they?  Sigh.  As I was watching this scene, as things unfolded, I think I was more okay with Soo Hyun dying than Mao, actually.  If Soo Hyun dies and Mao does not, I could see an ending where Mao just gives up the gangster life altogether.  If Mao dies and not Soo Hyun, that's the predictable ending, so why would that happen, right?  Not this show. But then they both "died", and I was pretty okay with that too. Kind of a poetic ending, even.  (I did have to watch the end of that part twice though, to clarify who shot whom.  Giraffe comes to and shoots Soo Hyun, Min Ki comes in and shoots Giraffe, right?  Mao never even "killed" Soo Hyun, even when he was still "dead", lol.)
• And then...time skip!  Commence fakeouts!  Fakeout #1: Ji Woo and Min Ki are together, and have a chubby baby!  Nope.  But he is with cute girl (who by the way was cute even before she took off her glasses, Min Ki).  Fakeout #2: Soo Hyun is still dead, right?  Nope.  There he is, with hairstyle #46 of the series, bearing a new scar.  So he used his "death" to go undercover again?  Did we not learn any lessons the first time this happened?  At least we know that Min Ki's in the loop this time.  Fakeout #3: Chief died in that explosion, right?  Nope.  There he is, with a little burn scar on his face, but still kicking.  Why did anything happen in this episode again?  Haha.
• And to sum up, there are more elephants, Ji Woo is an artist now, and Team Leader Min Ki wears the glasses now, not cute girl.  So...is new slacker guy in the office going to fall in love with him like Min Ki did with cute girl?  Ha.  And obviously, Soo Hyun muses at the sunset once last time.

And...I think that's it!  I'm sure there's more to discuss about the show as a whole, but I guess this is the last of the reaction/recap posts for me.  It's been a fun ride.

[dr25]

This took more than a week. I apologize for my laziness

 

Episode 15

Ajhshi XD

 

Mao is set for a final big transaction. With the help of Roadrunner ahjushi, SH, the NIS, and the mole within the NIS, his plans went down the drain. The production plant has been discovered, ajhusshi was killed in the process. (RIP for you have paid your debt). My commentaries are getting shorter cuz I can’t hold my excitement long enough to write. I’m dying to know what’s gonna happen in the finale!!  We’re left with the cliffhanger where SH is pointing a gun at Mao’s back but before he could shoot JW interfered. We know it’s a habit of hers at this point. Hearing her “dad!”, Mao turned around. The look on his face upon seeing SH pointing a gun at him was worth a 859#30&^&%098834 million dollars. We see SH shooting but God knows at who!!!

I'm pretty sure he isn't at this point hun.

Of course you can't have your everyday over-groomed hair when you're in hideout. I can see he took the time to blowdry it but anyhow. I still love you TBWD hairstylist. The mother in God's Gift had her perfect wavy hair done although she was supposedly too sad to even eat after her daughter's kidnapping. 0_O

I have a bad feeling about this. I don’t believe we know all there’s to know. This isn’t how this drama works. I’m dreading a major shock. Like Chief Jung being Mao's black agent. I dunno, I feel like there’s something big going. So far everyone associated with the show has been fooled by someone, we the audience are the only ones left. I feel like it’s coming. Writer-nim-del aren't letting us off this easily I’m afraid.

How products placement worked in 2007. I'd take this over the annoying blurring or the in your face CFs within the drama any time. No idea why I always notice these things XD

Happy-go-lucky MG made a comeback :

Awwww not pretty but sweet

Even his fighting tactics are more like the old him. Troll chatting while bro steals the info

My favorite part in the episode. Bless ya MG! Kill him and get us over with. He lived for way too long!

Back in the days, Kdramas kill their leads like nothing. I don’t wanna think of SH’s death! There’s a big chance that he might die. URG. Off to watch how this ill-fated story concludes. I’m fully prepared for a sad ending T___T 

 

When SH asked the Chief if his life isn’t lonely. Umm I don't have much to say about this but when I think about it...he must be really lonely with his paranoid manipulative personality. Poor his wife and children, if he has any. Head of the NIS can't be drown any different way.

 

 

Episode 16

A happy ending! *sighs in relief*

I assume this is what the director was referring to as the karma of destiny. Mao & LSH

I'll keep on using captures/quotes from what the PD-nim said at the press conference through out the commentary. 

When they fooled me into believing this was the end, I reluctantly started convincing myself of the blessing of such a poetic ending. The ill-fated father-son/ victim-predator relationship between Mao and Kay ended with both of them. The hand-in-hand shot was all the more expressive of that. As I suspected there was a hidden truth we didn’t know of till the very end. Mao was friends of LSH’s late father. He was also his first kill. He didn’t know the spy he was ‘ordered’ to kill was his best friend. Of course LSH who suffered a lot didn’t believe him; he thought it was pathetic trick mighty Mao tried to pull in escape of a bitter death. I love how SH couldn’t bring himself to pull the trigger at helpless Mao. I didn’t want him to kill Mao. Mao as the baddie can die in any other way but not by SH’s hands, I thought. Thankfully, that’s what happened. Mao practically shot himself. I believe it was atonement he sought. I forgive you Mao T­__T So did LSH long before he came to meet him. For before, he couldn’t go on with his life knowing Mao is alive and well, now, however, he chose to run away with JW over killing him. If that isn’t forgiveness, I don’t know what is. RIP Mao. You were the villain I wanted to see happening in dramas for years. He’s a normal human being with a bad job. He followed a moral code wholeheartedly which made him different from your usual gangster figures. This one you can trust.

We know nothing is more ominous in a Kdrama finale than a happy meal with loved ones. Go on writers. Give me another reason to worry. What do you care.

Chee, thanks for keeping me informed PD-nim.

The significance of the title/ painting.

Right before the main face-off, Mao cried asking Kay/SH, "Are you here as my son Kay or as LSH the NIS agent?" Different names stand for identity-related themes by default. The thing that links the whole story together is that the time SH took to become Kay is the time between the Wolf who would harm Mao and the Dog whom he raised (kay in Korean means dog). Hints don't get clearer than this. Such confusing times are the times of wolf and dog where both the good (represented by SH) and bad (represented by Kay) are hard to distinguish which makes me see why the dark faceless figure coming from afar but why is it surrounded by red out of all colors? Red for the sunset. What's in the sunset? A turning point from light to darkness. The time of change. The color red stands for both blood and love? I reckon with wolf comes blood while with a dog comes love and loyalty or even blood (as in relations) since Kay is Mao's son. Is SH/Kay a good person or not? He killed people and he traded in drugs for years. He didn’t give as much as a second thought to it at some point. And til the very end he remained a black agent who I assume does all kinds of bad things for the good reasons. So what is he? The personification of the painting as he once told JW. He's both the dog and the wolf and the 16 episodes we watched are the time in-between his current mixed self and what caused it to be.

 

The hairstyle closest to my heart *_*

For his now-mixed-dog-and-wolf self that is very much in peace with both its poles.

So MG married fellow co-worker and had a son! Aww. I love how we weren’t given a last episode where the hero hugs the heroine by the end. It so doesn’t suit the drama, a happily ever after ending that is. At the same time, we know SH is up and about willingly acing his black agent stuff. MG is his direct superior, so they get to meet every chance they get. Aww. We also know his next mission, one he applied for firsthand, will be in Paris, i.e. where JW is gonna live for the next few years. YAAY!

 

The significance of the elephant according to LJK:

It wasn't to remind him of his old self then...Umm... but still it is his old self that loved JW.

Lastly...

- Falling in Love with Soon Jung is downloading as I write Done watching.

- I have a new director crush. Not a single meaningless shot. Thanks for not wasting my time PD-nim.

It did, thank you!

- And a writers crush as well. Granted, the plot has some serious Kdrama cliches issues but the writers knew how to use it to build their characters. The characters were sensible and consistent (even Kay in his own way). I remember feeling like I can trust this character to do this or not to do that. I could also follow their reasoning. There's something that got to me about what makes us human. Is it our memories of who we are? Our environment? The people in our lives? Their perception of us? What is it that makes us who we are? That gives us our identity? What if one particular factor in someone's life wasn't there, would they be so different? I loved that a l.o.t.

Director at the drama's press conference on what TBWD is about.

- Aaaand I think I shall express my thoughts on how awesome LJK is at his Soompi home. I can’t believe I haven’t paid it a visit yet. Third drama is the charm I guess. I did. They were nice and welcoming.

 

I would disagree, though, that the fight wouldn't have taken place without Soo Hyun/Kay

's smirkiness (I do enjoy that I can use this as a shorthand, and everyone knows what I mean, haha).  I think it would have happened regardless.  Even if it wasn't his fault, even if so much of it was beyond his control, even if he did it for a reason that meant a lot to him, the fact remains that Soo Hyun was never dead.  Just that would be enough to make Min Ki feel totally betrayed and angry enough to fight, I would think.  Whatever happened in the interim.  Soo Hyun made that choice, and it hurt a lot of people.

Yeah. I got the same conclusion as an after(posting)thought. There was no way I'm re-editing the post again so...

It happens a lot btw. I'd have an idea at the back of my head that actually goes against the one I posted but I can't post everything that goes inside my head, posts being long as is, so I just wait for you to say it ha!

Did I just connect a kdrama with a trippy kid's movie and an obscure video game?  Yes, I did.

 I assume the connotations such connection brings to mind are meant to be noticed.

And how many times did Soo Hyun almost kill Mao in these episodes?  Have a gun pointed at him and then

chicken out

?  During the one attempt, when Ji Woo suddenly entering the room made him chicken out again, it was like he needed that reminder again.  That's her dad, and she's in the same house as you.  Do you think that's going to end well?  Attempt to kill one dad in front of her, and then the other?  Haha.  Well, it scared him out of it, anyway.

Maybe he did simply chiken out but I thought he was desperately looking for any reason to avoid killing him because:

I spent some time wondering what Soo Hyun's plans were regarding Mao.  He knows he's Soo Hyun for sure now, so he's back to being "Kay" again.  He still wants to take down Cheongbang and Mao, but it's not that simple.  I would be surprised if

there isn't

some nod to Mao's kindness and help during this time

(and I'd probably be disappointed if there isn't).  I wondered if maybe

Soo Hyun was willing to let him be, knowing that Mao is probably the lesser of several evils.  If we have to have a gang leader, why not have one with at least a little bit of a heart?

  So it'll be interesting to see the ultimate outcome.  Mao is who he set out to kill (must avenge mom!) and why he's here to begin with, but

things have gotten more complicated for sure

.  However, Mao's a little suspicious of him now.  And Soo Hyun's in trouble by the end of 14 (thanks, Ji Woo!), so none of this may matter. 

Who will have mercy on whom may be the better question.  (Or will anyone have mercy on anyone else?)

Thank you!

At the "art auction", just the fact that that particular painting got so much bidding attention should have set off some alarm bells, shouldn't it?
Like grandma's wallpaper with a weird saying just for fun, "Never has a flower been a flower."  At some point Ji Woo looked kind of confused, like she wondered why everyone was so wild about this painting.  She's the art expert, so maybe that's why?  She shares my opinion that no one in their right mind would want to hang that on their wall?  Well, I guess no one did anyway. 

(Confession) almost every time I read your reactions I end up with something close to an inner struggle, almost. I hate it when people misread my meanings and since I misread your serious statement once as sarcasm, I always try to hold back from labeling so many things you say under that (to the point that you had to tell me the watch "joke?" was a joke). Glad you're obviously making fun of so many things this time LOL

And...I think that's it!  I'm sure there's more to discuss about the show as a whole, but I guess this is the last of the reaction/recap posts for me.  It's been a fun ride.

This last time is the one I had the most fun with cuz I found so many treasures *_*. Behold:

A TBWD manhwa

Look, your favorite kind of fights..

 

An hour long BTS video with English subtitles.

I died laughing when Joonki commented, "I got drifted here by holding on to a turtle's back. I should be dead but I lost my memories. Crazy, huh". Nothing better than the actor laughing at the nonsense in his own drama. A list of 13 other videos, in one of those the MC asked MG/ KyungHo, "Don't you feel bad/ sorry for taking your friend's girl?" To which MG/ KyungHo replied, "Why do I have to feel sorry?! He's dead!" LOL. Those two...XD

 

I find it hard to stop. too fun to stop. I'll never have another opportunity to dissect this drama..Your reading assignment is long as is @Ecs..I should have a heart and stop here.

PS: The lines I write under the scaps are usually newly written. I don't want to color them in blue cuz I think it'll ruin the styling. Too much blue.

[TTXFYoung]

Thank you so much for all your reviews and captures, you really make me remember back the crazy time that I got addicted to this drama.

 

I also love this OST - Hidden Sky - I used to listen to it time to time, one of my all time favorite Kdrama OST.