☆ 2 P M ★ Official Thread ☆

[Guest entermuriel]

Edit: seems like 2oneday is bashing Taec now...for his lack of thnks to Hottest. More drama!

dude, that place is crazy right now with all those comments about Taec.

like seriously, i am so pissed off at everything that's being said about Taec.

i've never believed that this could actually happen... how did it end up this way?!

i am so disappointed in the fans' comments towards Taec rather than Taec's actions.

right now i feel that they're so hypocritical to be bashing him that way.

i'm not saying that Taec's a saint and has done nothing wrong...

but to get all this backlash and from his own fans... no one deserves that.

and i can't believe people actually think he didn't mention Jay is his thanks!

simply because someone commented in the article that he didn't, everyone believes it.

if that's true, then what the hell is this?!

"Lastly 2PM members!! Jay, Junsu, Khun, Wooyoung, Junho, Chansung, Let's fight this over. Hwaiting!! -Taecyeon"

man, i'm going to shut up now... i am seriously so disappointed and pissed off at fans right now.

EDIT: -takes big breath- all i'm saying is that fans before kept saying "he's only human" towards Jay... well guess what?! Taec is a freaking human too! He has made mistakes, he will learn eventually... -sigh- damn, and this is coming from a VERY Jay-biased person T-T

EDIT2: -take another big breath- another thing i want to add... i can't really blame him for getting a bit cocky or big-headed right now. i mean... from pictures and comments i've read in the past, it seems like before becoming a trainee or auditioning JYP, he used to be to what most people would call a nerd... i mean, idk if it's true and all... but if i used to be a nerd before, and now i'm every girl's "dream and fantasy" or i have the attention on me right now... ha, i'd feel cocky too... just saying. this cockiness will wear off eventually.

No one said it was easy to be a celebrity. You are loved by many but you must carry the burden of that love carefully, because there's a THIN LINE between love and uh. dislike. haha.

agreed 100%

man, someone posted something in 2od... and i had such a good comeback... sarcasm included and all =3=... but they closed the thread T-T wth... but, closing the thread obviously shows something

i love you taec - from a jay-biased hottest

i'm going crazy~

don't worry taec... we'll look back at this and laugh... with Jay

[Guest theblazenazn]

About Taecyeon's Controversy over the "Thank You's" and the "Nut Members"...

To be honest, I've been feeling Taceyeon is way beyond who he used to be by a long shot in terms of popularity. He's part of Family Outing 2 and he's the star of an upcoming drama, plus he became the most famous after the Heartbeat promotions, plus he's Inkigayo's MC. I used to say Taec needs more love but his popularity will soon be so explosive we have no idea. To be frank, I thought he should thanked Hottests and his fans. They made him who is now being so popular.

For once I agree with all the Netizens, some of which I still think are really Hottests. The other Hottests being so quiet and avoiding it is like a Girlfriend doing everything for a Boyfriend but doesn't get thanked when he wins an award & gives his acceptance speech, but instead he used the time to make a inside joke about another woman. Yeah, it hurts but she cant turn her back on him, but it's just sad for the wife, like it is for K-Hottests. I really feel them. I don't feel that 2OneDay bashing Taec at all. The sad thing is, even if this gets to JYPE or Taec, I bet neither would care...

The "nut member" thing was stupid, it's something that should be written on a facebook wallpost or notes Not an album thank you's. BTW, Taec is my Top 2 fave. member along with Wooyoung so I'm definitely being unbiased about this.

[Guest bert263]

^^@ blaznasian I have to say your avatar is awesome. I get excited every time I see Woo's nipples. Drools!

anyways I think there's a line between not agreeing with Taec to simply bashing him. I've seen comments that said he's just plain stupid...if that's not bashing then I don't know what is.

Hopefully, people don't cross the line by actually hating on him which I've also seen on 2oneday.

[Guest [Deleted User]]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Guest luv_uj]

The whole crossing over rumor has nothing to do with who's the most promoted or popular right now. The reason why people think it's Taec isn't because he's gaining the most attention but it's probably because of his attitude towards it all.

I hope this rumor isn't true though because it is extremely heart breaking to fans to hear about how fragile their brotherhood can be. But then again, I won't blame the one who did cross over if it's true because at the end of the day, all relationships aside, you have to think about the business of it and they're all working to gain money. Of course they have a strong brotherhood but it seems apparent that some care less about it than others. I don't want to think it's Taec either but my perspective of him has completely changed since this whole ordeal. He went from my 3rd favorite member to now probably being last only because I think he's getting way too over his head. But that's just my opinion.

Ummm. You may be right if you're talk about the attitude. I dont like "Nut member" and it lets me think about another rumor I heard about him that I dont want to mention it here coz I have no prove. Anyway, I choose to believe that all are rumors even Taec is not my fav but I love him as always.

@ talksound No one blames on you posting Jay's pics <3333 Keep posting if you have more. He's a true Superstar wherever he is.

I found more gif of Jay and Jalen. You must see Jalen, he was dope with Chacha.

cr: onedaysislove @ tumblr

EDIT: Another good quote from interview of press con. The thai host asked " Is there any fun story while shooting MV?" Khun said "it wasnt difficult because just dance, but it wasnt nothing funny" and he also said "While making this album, there was something happening to us and we weren't really sure that we should release this album or not but we trusted in our fans gonna support us.

[Guest fattie8701]

I was not going to respond but i am so mad i have to vent!

Why is it that people cannot breathe. I dont see how being a celebrity means you have to live a suffocated life?! I read so much bashing on Taec today i couldnt even digest the food i was eating properly. Taec wrote this 'thank you' MONTHS ago...why is it now coincidently when:

1) Jay controversy is being stirred up again, so everyone is anxious

and

2) SNSD is found to form a nut family with Taec n Seulong

that this nonsense is coming up, and i highly doubt he did not thank Jay because people would have noticed long time ago( for those who bought the album, please re-read his thank you or scan it and post it please i beg of you). Him not thanking fans again, why is this an issue now?? And why are some fans getting butt-hurt, if you boycotted the album it should not bother you what they write or dont write in there. If you bought the album, i assume you didnt care much cuz no one made an issue about it, but at the same time you have every right to voice out dissatisfaction, but do so tastefully.

And i believe he has every right to thank his nut-family, no it is not just something you write on facebook walls or whatever. If there are people in this life who make a difference in your life, then you are allowed to thank them when and however you want to.

And yes these boys have changed! Every single one of them went through something and they are all dealing with it how they can, who are we to judge or tell them how to behave? There is no a prototype for grief! If they had laughed these past few months, they would have been reprimanded for being happy when their 'brother' is suffering, they are sad and fan girls are crying, what do people want them to do. Aish...

This witch hunt has got to end, its the same witch hunt that got Jay in this useless mess in the first place, i remember pages ago when people started hunting down Nichkhun and now its Taec, why cant people just live drama and stress free lives.

This nonsense has nothing to do with Taecs change in personality. if Junsu or Junho or Chansung or Wooyoung had been pushed much into the spotlight like Taec has been recently then the hate might have headed towards them instead!. And for those saying Taec has changed, id like to know how people know him personally enough to state such an opinion as if it were fact.

For those saying he is blunt or cocky now, Taec has always been blunt..watch 'its time 2pm' a fan asked him a question he bluntly stated why is she asking me that, isnt she Jaebeoms fan"..no one said anything about that. Whenever he was cool it was labelled as greasy. So why now is it that its suddenly Taec is cocky, Taec is being careless??

People need to stop, please. This is the type of useless witch hunting we want to send Jay Park back to? No thank you. No thank you at all!

And yes some people on 2OD are bashing Taec, there is a difference between scolding a child and insulting them. Taec didnt thank fans, ok...let people talk about how it made them sad or something. I dont understand how that relates to being cocky, behaviour change and all that. And from what i read, Nichkhun didnt thank fans either, I dont see him getting pages and pages of hate! *not that i want to*

People need someone to take their frustrations out of. I beg all of you here and lurkers from 2OD think before you type! you never know who is reading your words, you never know how it affects people; Taec isnt just one person he has a mother father sisters. family and friends who could be reading this. Your words dont just affect him alone.

These celebrities are people working day and night to bring you smiles and laughter. Constructive criticism is always good, but when they become unneccessary insults, its just plain Wrong! Its easy for us to assume we know these people but truth and reality is we dont! What we see are edited cuts and those arent enough to tell you who a person is. So all this talk about Taec being the likely candidate for what is A RUMOUR is just wierd. You and i dont know these boys, and if we did i doubt we would be active participants in soompi when we could easily talk to in person. So to pinpoint anyone member is just again wierd and not right in so many ways.

P.s I am NOT Taec shipper. I like all the boys, dont have a favorite/bias. And i dont mean to offend anyone with this post, but i needed to vent all these thoughts out. You can agree or disagree with me, its at your discretion. But please i urge you once again to think about things before you type/say/do them. :-D

[Guest luna81]

someone at 2OD gave a link to the 1:59 album booklet scans and he/she said he did say, "to all the people who cheered me on/give me strength - thank you."

He did say Thank You to Hottests, I don't know why everybody is getting their panties in a twist.

[Guest cheezychunnie]

dude, that place is crazy right now with all those comments about Taec.

like seriously, i am so pissed off at everything that's being said about Taec.

i've never believed that this could actually happen... how did it end up this way?!

i am so disappointed in the fans' comments towards Taec rather than Taec's actions.

right now i feel that they're so hypocritical to be bashing him that way.

i'm not saying that Taec's a saint and has done nothing wrong...

but to get all this backlash and from his own fans... no one deserves that.

and i can't believe people actually think he didn't mention Jay is his thanks!

simply because someone commented in the article that he didn't, everyone believes it.

if that's true, then what the hell is this?!

man, i'm going to shut up now... i am seriously so disappointed and pissed off at fans right now.

EDIT: -takes big breath- all i'm saying is that fans before kept saying "he's only human" towards Jay... well guess what?! Taec is a freaking human too! He has made mistakes, he will learn eventually... -sigh- damn, and this is coming from a VERY Jay-biased person T-T

thank u for your post..i really needed to hear from Jay-biased side

im a Taec biased but im still backing-up Jay when the world seems to attack him..

why cant others do the same when its Taec's turn?what happen to 7-1=0???

is it really that easy we dump one member of 2PM coz of his stupid mistake?

what makes us different from antis?

peace!

sweetVisions>>>ur comment makes me laugh..thank u so much

[Guest happyberry2007]

I dont think that 2OD is bashing taec.

i do agree that this whole thing is being blown out of proportion and we shouldnt make a big deal out of it.

But i do agree that taec should be more careful especially right now when khottest are confused with all the rumors going on and trying to bring jay back. Taec has to be told by someone that right now he is the face of 2pm and that he should be more careful especially after what happen to jay. I do love taec but he should be a little more discreet about his friendship with that girl group because some fans of that group dont like it.

Everything right now is a mess when are we going to receive some good news. Fighting 2pm.

[missyera]

DAYUUM!

Those shots of Jay....wow.It's so good to see him in casual wear and in his element. That first shot of him with that face...haha...just screams BAD-S. I heard that even bboys in his hoometown are admitting that they're surprised at how good he is. Guess he's not just a pretty face with no substance to show. He definitely proved them wrong.

Anyways, is it just me or are international 2PM fans becoming more frantic nowadays over everything?

We seriously need to chill out and see things from all points of view before instantly blowing our tops at every rumor or news we hear.

The thing that we have to bear in mind is that to date, we still know NOTHING about the real situation cos fact of the matter is, we are not 2PM, we are not JYP, JYPE, the coordis, noonas and nor even their janitors. We have no direct contact whatsoever with these guys and We're halfway across the world from these people. We get our information from third parties....and god knows how that information have been skewed and twisted by the time it reaches us.

So, ALWAYS remember to take things with a pinch of pepper and sneeze it out when needed.

And this on going heat about Taec scoring all these new found fame and superstardom and enlightenment and CFs and girlfriends and dramas and movies and mcs etc.....

Well, the thing is, all of it has happened already. What's done is done. He has already accepted all of the offers and are already involved in every single one of them. Not sure whether it was his decision (doubtful) to accept it all, but the thing is, the person who has to do all those work and to keep awake trying to do all that is no one BUT Taec himself.

If it really was all his choice "in his greed to gain supremity" lol, well, he's the one who has to endure those continuous long hours of non-stop work. Not JYP, not his fans, but himself. If he's gotten cocky due to his new superstar status, well, he still has to suffer from working non-stop to achieve that status. So, i'll say, he's gotten his own "payback". I don't think he needs more backlash from his own fans, right?

If fans are unhappy, and if suddenly, news comes out that he's going to back out from Family Outing, drop out as MC from Inkigayo, quit his drama and sever all ties with his nut club (LMAO), would that make fans happier? I really wonder.

I'm not really that much of a fan of Taec, but for some reason, I sympathize with his situation. shrugs* Just my two cents. Or twenty.

Oh yeah, as for Jay, DAYUMM. Haha...

[Guest sweetVisions]

OMG! NEW RUMOR HERE! You don't have to believe it but I'm going to condemn anybody who disagrees with me

I heard from my friend, with the bike, that Taec made a deal with a devil named Ruby in order to drive Jay out of the country so his popularity will rise. Unfortunately, Harry and Hermione was too late in defeating Ruby (they had to deal with a male confessor and you know how THEY are).

/end sarcasm <-- had to add that in case people thought it was true *cough*

NONE.LIKEYOU, I agree. It's disgusting.

The mindset of some of you doesn't make sense. You want Jay to comeback to a company that hates him along with his backstabbing brothers. How nice of you.

And as a "thanks" to those comments, I'm going to post some Taec/TaecJay pictures and animations! Enjoy!

[Guest nataah]

If Hottests are bashing Taec, rather than just simple netizens, I understand. It's not right by any means, to go after for him for this -- he thanked Jay, and he thanks his fans and by extension Hottests, even if he didn't use such concise, clear words. Hottests are in panic mode. They think it's the end and they are desperate and scared. They are lashing out because they are scared, and if there lashings are misdirected, it is unfortunate but in my opinion, not completely hateable.

I hope everyone can just step away, see the sense or nonsense in what they are claiming and calm down. If it's netizens trying to stir up things and hurt Hottests, I hope Hottests see it and don't react. If it is Hottests...I hope they realize that in this situation Taec probably doesn't deserve the hate. Hottests need to be united now more than ever, instead of tearing each other apart

[Guest sopya]

I don’t post often but things are getting out of control again.

Everyone, Jay’s issue started with misinterpretations and netizens’ overreaction. And now, here we go again. So please, calm down. No more bashing each other and the boys.

Let’s face it, Hottests are divided because of Jay’s incident, do we want to be even more divided?

[Guest lec8504]

is this seriously happening?

are we so hurt now that we won't stop attacking other people? First it was JYPE and now it's the boys themselves?

seriously...some of these people who are running their mouths..do they want 2PM to be fractured because Jay isn't here? Do they want 2PM to lose another "american" group member? Do they want to hurt the boys just because they are receiving some good from this whole fiasco?!

NONE of them asked to be more popular, to get more fans, to take off their shirts..but the show must go on. And now people are playing this guessing game as to which ones of the boys are pro-JYPE...this is way too much. I'm so annoyed and pissed off right now...especially since Taec is the one that likes to surf around....I don't even want to imagine what he would think when he sees all of these posts.

Honestly my opinion is...wait until official word..some of you guys can say that we aren't "doing anything" or that we are complacent and lazy...but the way that I see it is: we are wise enough to not start freaking out over every little rumor..when all it is..IS JUST A RUMOR. IT CAN BE STARTED BY THE 13 YEAR OLD BOY WHO LIVES NEXT DOOR TO YOU JUST TO LAUGH AT US. OR THE 35 YEAR OLD MAN WHO'S BORED AT HIS WORK AND WANTS TO LAUGH AT OUR EXPENSE. You never know. So I say breathe...stop attacking the rest of the boys..stop trying to read their actions or misinterpreting them.

[Guest psylocke119]

woah...teac bashing on 2OD caused the thread to close! what? what? i was reading the comment and then "bleep" gone, deleted into cyber space...LOL, oh well. guess a lot of people got to release some steam...and we all know it wasn't really his thanks to that people are upset about...

[Guest sballet06]

I rarely post here, more of a lurker after the mess that was this thread right after Jay's departure

They are bashing Taec like crazy rn in 2OD

It's sickening that a 2PM forum is bashing one of their own

Also if people actually took the time to read his Thanks to

he thanked Jay and while he didn't specifically thank Hottests he thanked the people who supported him

That's copy and pasted from my reply at another site but it's basically my take on this situation

The fact that even a mod there decided to say Taec isn't a human because he's not humane/compassionate/caring in her mind. Just Wow

[Guest pinkPABOsings]

Everytime I've come in here to post my out look on the current rumors I often end up erasing everything I've written because I pretty much feel that there is nothing that I can say that would make much since as well as calm some of my fellow Hottests down a bit.

However, this time around I just wanted to put in my logical spin on things.

First of all, Rumors are like lies...though they may not be true, for the most part, there is some truth to many or most of them. Since that is the way I'm thinking, as of late, I've decided that as a fan the rumors that I see popping up should be thought over more instead of just disregarded/taken way too seriously.

Like this recent rumor that the boys are divided and one of the members is on JYPE's side. I feel that all or most of them are probably standing for both Jay and JYPE. They want their leader back...it's been obvious since Jay left. However, they can't just up and leave the company or take their own stand within the company because that would mean the end of their jobs, their success, and everything they've worked so hard to achieve. That being said, the whole "divided" part of that rumor would be the "lie" as I see it. These six men have stood so strong for the last few months and as Wooyoung said, they are one. They are not and have never been seven(six) separate boys just working together because they have to. Instead, they came together and made a bond that I believe is what has been keeping them sane since September. If anything, I think now, with things being as they are, they are more together then they were before. The fact is, just as all the Hottests believe, in order to get something done you must do it together under one accord. And I think the boys know that. That's the whole bases of being a group or, in this case, one unit.

Now how I feel about JYPE is still up in the air. I respect Park Jin Young, the man. It can't be denied that he's pretty damned good at what he does and he does it well. He's got an eye for talent as well as an eye for finding what the fans like. At the same time, he can see strength when many other people would see weakness. Because of that, it is hard not to respect the man. However, his company is something that boggles my mind. I still have not been able to warp my mind around the concept of letting any and everybody say their piece on their feelings about Jay and this situation since it happened. The fact of the matter is, it seems, no matter how many voices speak up, and no matter how many times those voices say the same thing, these voices are continuing to go unheard. I understand that, as far as marketing goes, when a contract is written and signed the contract must run its course. If the facts are that JYPE kicked Jay out because of the loss of sponers and now they have sponsers again it would make since to bring him back. However, if those sponsers are only okay with six members Jay will have to wait until the contracts are finished. At the same time, I'm sure that there are many sponsers who would jump on the bandwagon once Jay returns because 2PM's popularity should, and I'm speaking logically, increase tenfold. Media will also be knocking at JYPE's door with the return of Jay because, just like when Jay left, they will want to be the first to have the story or have the boys as seven on their show. Because we all know media as well as sponsers only make money with numbers. A show only continues if the viewer rate is high just like JYPE's sponsers only make money if they provide an ad that their consumers like/enjoy.

Remember these are just my logical spins on the situations. I don't work for any company nor do I know anyone personally. I'm just one person throwing in my two cents.

I want Jay back and I wish, everyday, that I was working on the inside to see what was going on everyday so I wouldn't have to question everything that has been said about this unit of boys that I love so much. However, someone said something a few pages back that caught my attention. With Jay being in America for an extended length of time, it seems as if he's fallen back into the "normal" life of a "normal" person. He seems happy and healthy. However, he has not forgotten his fans and every time he wears a shirt made by the fans or his AOM members wear shirts made by the fans he shows his love for us, just like AOM is showing their respect. For that reason alone, I will not give up hope, nor will I believe everything I hear.

Hottests Fighting!

[Kabler]

I've warned about teac "hate" upcoming and true enough its exploded.

One thing I must say though is, if he is not careful, he's going to start turning off people really fast. His over exposure is already one factor that is against him, as many is already starting to feel that he's becoming bigger than his 2PM status and it unsettles them. Unlike Khun who is quiet and reserved, Teac's overt personality might come across as arrogant and in some cases brash, this is not helping him to win more fans.

The outburst incident on the internet, the 'clique-ish" nuts family talk. One bad move after another. How do you plan to make Hottest feel like your family when you go mouthing off on your liner notes that you have another "family" that you care about and this one is "off limits" in membership to any one else but those special elite few. Of course people are going to feel alienation and discontentment. Some things should be made public and others in confidence. As an artist, you should be clear on those boundaries. Bottomline, Teac is an idol whether he likes it or not. Idol artistes need to have a certain mysetery surrounding them and an image of single prince charming to the dozens to upkeep. Unless he starts to prove his mettle in acting, singing, or rapping, and in the end people will still need to use him for his unusual 'abilities" he is still an idol...

If he can't take the criticms, he shouldn't be reaping the profits off the image that the fans have bought into as well...

Plus you don't go Its business in one press release and you're my nut family in your liner notes, if he was my company's artiste, I would have scolded him upside down.

Yes - its 2PM sensitive period now, thats why its all the more for the members to practise discretion.

But his faux pas was forgetting that he's an idol celebrity and his job basically is to please his fans. Showing his close relationship with pretty girls... is probably not going to help very much in that department, which is probably why fans are upset.

Agreed.

[Guest Stephy18]

Like someone brought up on 2oneday, this "Thank to" was written way BEFORE heartbeat promotions and before Taec's rise in popularity. So everyone using that as a reason that Taec doesnt appreciate hottest is a little unfair for him. His "Thank to" was written way BEFORE the promotions. And at that time, none of us would have thought that taec didnt care about hottest or whatever. Yet now when Taec is popular, everyone takes his "thank to" out of the blue and uses it to dislike him. Also, someone mentioned that Taec did write that he "thanked everyone who supported him." Cant this be implied that he is also thanking hottest. Why do you guys all need the word "HOTTEST" to make you see that taec appreciates us. What about all the times he thanked "Hottest" when they win an award. You guys ignore those millions of thanks he mentioned at awards shows yet you only want to remember this one time he might have not mentioned hottest. I hope Taec can learn from his mistake and be more careful with his words and actions because now everyone is looking at him for everything little thing he does. I understand that some are disappointed and hurt with Taec and that's understandable. But I just hope you guys can give him a chance to change because from the looks of 2oneday comments, everyone is turning their backs on Taec, which makes me sad. Hottest preach saying "Jay is human. He makes mistakes. Everyone deserves a another chance." So why cant you guys do the same for Taec. I know that all hottest are vulnerable and emotional right now, but I hope that you all still try your best to support all 7 of the guys and dont turn your back just for one's mistake. Like hottest said, humans are bond to make mistakes. We're all not perfect and wasnt this the main reason we fell for 2pm because they werent perfect? Also regarding the nut club thing. Seriously when it came out, no one freaking cared who the nuts were and Taec never came out and said who they were. So it wasnt like he choose the nut club over hottest. He thanked 2am, Wg, joo, and etc. So are you saying he choose them over hottest too. Seriously, it just that recently the discovery of the identity of the nuts came out to be from a popular girl group that everyone is all richard simmons. I seriously dont fine anything wrong with Taec mentioning thanks to his close friends, even if it from a girl group. Seriously, if that what some of you believe, then I dont understand why some of you still want Jay to return. To return to a so called, "Manipulating Evil company like JYPE and backstabbing brothers who dont care about no one except their own fame." Some hottest are frustrated and I understand but why do we always have to find someone to bash. I thought antis do this, but I guess fans to it to. Months earlier it was khun, now its taec. Seriously I'm so frustrated and sad that hottest are being so mean to any of the members.

[Guest churvaness]

Pls...Do not hate me on this.....

I think that some Hottests are rationalizing their jealousy over snsd-2pm friendship through the "thanks to" issue.....

1.) The album containing the "thanks to" was released prior to the MAMA event.

2.) Taecyeon did thank the HOTTESTS during their speeches after they have won BIG awards on MAMA.

Therefore, maybe Taecyeon did not really mean to "ignore" hottests during the thank's too....

--------------

I understand that they would feel disappointed not being "literally" mentioned in the album but to pinpoint that Taecyeon prefers the nut family over them is just ??

The thanks to has been exposed ever since the album was released but then NOBODY made a sound as to who these NUTS in Taec's account are...Nobody cared that the word "hottests" weren't there...

But now, that people knew that these NUTS are from a GirlGroup....A girl group who has been popular with boys...Some hottests went wild. They went on bashing Taec and I think even bacame an anti of that GirlGroup...They accused him of having fun while they suffer doing protests...They accused him of turning his back to his leader, of being cocky and ungrateful to the fans....really...

I am not a Taec fan, he isn't my fav...

But, I can see where all this drama may lead to....The fan is the Group...The Group is the fan...The one exists with the other...The other's downfall will crash down the other...