lostintranslation
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Posts posted by lostintranslation
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With just 2 episodes left I think everyone just wants a little bit of XF angst - to make up for his hard-headed pride in making JM suffer so much before accepting the inevitable that he still loved her, and then just a LOT of happily-ever-after.
But I wanted to write a few words about my struggle to understand the appeal of the RY character. He has so many fans, and seen so much attention from the scriptwriters that I thought I must surely have missed something about his personality, that I just can't seem to get on board with at all.
In the novel he was not so fleshed out as a character and hence there was ambiguity in some of his motivations and the emotional demons that drove his actions - you could give him a lot of the benefit of the doubt. In the drama so much backstory is given to him, and then so much time is spent on his machinations to overthrow the throne, usurp his younger brother's role and steal JM's affections, that you have to see him in all his stark truth. When RY has that conversation with the ghost of XF he basic admits that he was always jealous and resentful of the younger brother who only loved him in return. All of his 'loving' gestures and seeming sacrifices for JM were all fundamentally self-serving. They were never about her as a person that he shared a romantic love with - just her as an object he needed to make up for all he never had - and that that object was the love of his brother's life seem to justify it even more that he deserved her. Even saving her life was about tying her to him with guilt and obligation.
I've yet to see the english translation of this last episode, but it seems that the final battle didn't have to happen as it did. It was driven by RY's egomaniacal and vainglorious need to triumph over XF and take back JM - even though she makes it very clear who she wants to be with. Two wrongs don't make a right is the saying, and everything that was done to RY and his mother in the past by the Heavenly Emperor and Empress does not make right or balance or justify what he does to JM and XF. I know RY will return JM's drawings of XF, which is the least he can do - but honestly I just can't see any nobility, gallantry or heroism in him that explains all the fans of the RY character. What are his redeeming features?!
At the end of the day I really like XF as the hero and I found insightful the comments from @Nudafu and @tripplestep007 about XF as a character. I hope we finally get to see him fulfill all his potential as a hero and protagonist in these last two episodes as he undergoes his self-imposed punishment and attempts to defy fate and destiny to be reunited with his one and only grape spirit.
Finally, there's been a nice amount of humour in the drama. I would love it if somehow in the final episodes the drama can capture the comedy of JM's amnesiac formless soul being confused over XF's obsession with staring at grapes even though he doesn't eat them :-) ... that would be impressive!
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I haven't been back here since the days of Princess Agents. That disastrous car crash of an ending drove me to Korean dramas which are often more efficient in their storytelling, and when things do go wrong you haven’t invested 60+ episodes.
I will preface my comments and say that I have read the English-translation of the novel and love it. I think it was a genius idea to take one of the epilogues about the OTP's reincarnation after their HEA and move it to embellish their earlier relationship. It gives more depth to the fated-lovers story and we get to see why XF loves JM despite her often being a silly little grape. I think it was good and necessary to flesh out RY’s story and character – it only adds to the angst and tragedy of the love triangle - if he was a limp noodle that would actually take away from the XF/JM story.
However, I was finally drawn to make a comment at this point where I (personally) think the story has strayed a little too far for many moderate fans. The story is the author’s story to tell … but very rarely are stories optioned to be made into movies or tv series without massive fan bases to champion them and advocate that there is money to be made in investing in them this way. The fans of the novel are a big part of this and I think the author owes them a little more than fortifying one main character by removing so much of the agency not only of the male protagonist but also the heroine’s redemption arc.
As many have already commented – this is not the worst adaptation out there … it’s not too bad, if you don’t know that it could have been so much better … but I will still have hope ( the phoenix-feathered Hope of Emily Dickinson
) that the series will redeem itself before the end.
PS – How creepy is it that RY keeps sneaking into her room and violating her mind, dreams and memories – touching her and crippling her emotionally for his own sake? There’s a stronger word for this sort of behaviour.
PPS – How wretched is their timing … when XF loves JM she’s unable to love him back wholly – when she can love him unreservedly he mistakenly hates her … oh, the angst!
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It's no exaggeration to say that this thread has exploded in the last 12 hours or that the production company have made a dog's breakfast of it all. I'm not sure how these threads usually end and this situation seems a little more extreme than how I imagine a drama might end but I'd like to try and find some positives in all this.
I'm thankful that we do get closure on the question of whether CQ loves YX or not, or rather the nature of her relationship with him. She lays it all out very clearly and leaves no doubt in his mind how she feels. She draws a line in the sand and his crossing over that line finally allows her to surrender any lingering emotional debt and responsibility she may have had.
On the question of why it took CQ so long to realise she loved YWY, I have some thoughts:
Since the very beginning when she lost her memory when has he not been the predominant definition of her world? He is a man among men. A Pygmalion who has moulded her from a lowly slave - sharing with her his strategic brilliance and penetrating intelligence, giving her the physical training and survival skills crucial in their world. Even in the three years they were apart his influence was what helped keep her alive. He has always been physically invincible and, until recently, emotionally aloof - the Iceman who didn't understand her dreams or appreciate life below his own social station.
Her world has been all about survival, which has emotionally stunted her. I really think she doesn't know how to process his confession that he needs her. Not the way she thinks YX needs her, but as a woman ... as a lover and a partner. When has she ever had the luxury to be in love? What has she ever seen of love - nothing but sexual predation and rape in a world where women of her class have little choice over their bodies. This is a world where there are no fairy tales or happy-ever-after for two people at such extremes of the social order. She honestly cannot believe that he would prefer thorns and thistles to beautiful fair ladies of good breeding. That he could accept and love her as an equal. Despite his words and actions, ultimately she never truly thought he would put her life above his own.
Events have been hemming her in. Zhong Yu leaving means there is one less person to provide support against Cheng Yuan's influence on YX. Losing the field command of the XuiLi army, and having them stationed at Mt XuiLi has removed that tactical support. She is no freer now than she was while under house arrest - if anything she is even more trapped by her obligations, her stubborn loyalty and principles. Her hands are tied by the fact that they are fighting on opposite sides, even if they're actually fighting for the same thing - defending the common people and minimising the bloodshed.
No matter that they've been at war with the very real possibility of death at any moment I think most people can't help but believe that there's always time to get things done, and she is no different - time left to be together, time left to tell someone how you really feel. She thinks that by keeping everything in an emotional stasis, by not showing him how she reciprocates his feelings she can save him from pain, protect him from making dangerous decisions ... until some future where they may have a sliver of a chance.
He has been her foundation - master, mentor, adversary and now just the man she loves. I think you can believe that the agony of that loss is enough to trigger the return of her memory and the red spider lily tattoo, bringing her full circle to the start of her story.
Finally ... my favourite scene in this last episode - CQ's defence of YWY. Absolutely heart-pounding in her fierceness and desperation. It's not about which side she is fighting for anymore - it's all about saving him. That infinitesimal nod from him when she tells him hold on and to wait for her. The heartbreaking pain of what could have been if she hadn't run out of time ...
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I haven't been able to post anything here for the last few episodes as the reality of the many predictions for a sad, or at least incomplete, ending have become too substantive to deny. I am still a little incredulous at the cheek of the production company to have marketed PA the way they have. So many of the synopses for PA (including the one on the first page of this thread) refer to how CQ and YWY 'tear down the slavery system'. When the hell is that supposed to happen now?! That's like mentioning the destruction of the One Ring or Aragorn becoming king when providing the synopsis for The Fellowship of the Ring! It's one thing to leave viewers on a cliff-hanger from one episode to the next, but for an entire expensive production like this when the cast haven't been locked in for the subsequent season? Unbelievable! To provide no closure to the fans is just plain rude and obnoxious.I feel disillusioned and betrayed, and a little bit silly that I'm getting this worked up about a TV drama for pity's sake. I realise that this is a business and there's money to be made, but surely you can do that while still respecting the commitment and passion of the fans. And what about the artistic integrity of the literary source you're adapting or the credibility of the actors who probably signed on before they saw the hatchet job done on the script and the characters! Why be Michael Bay when you can be Christopher Nolan or Steven Spielberg?
It may be vindictive of me but I really hope that in the case of this production company lightning doesn't strike twice when they move on to PA2 as they surely are itching to do after this current commercial success. They've been unprincipled and mercenary, and they don't deserve the success that PA has amassed, goddammit. I'm so annoyed that the production company will see these methods they've used reap rewards such as 40 billion views and feel that this is the best way to success, and screw the fans!
Tragedy is the difference between what is and what could have been.
- Abba EbanThis is a serious quote that I am using for something that is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, but it feels like such an appalling waste of a great story and a great cast that have given us many flashes of brilliance. Argghhhh!
Apologies to everyone ... rant over.
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5 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:
It isn't just that he needs XE leave on her own bat, it is objectively better on all counts that she does. Then they can be both quite certain that this is exactly what she wants in the long run In fact, I would go so far as to say that even if she did leave YX and go to YWY now... there would still be lingering doubts in her mind if she's just exchanging one kind of obligation with another. She's been pushed around by one man after another so it might be premature for her to fall into the arms of one man after escaping the clutches of another.
I cannot agree enough on this comment!
As much as many are desperate for them to be together happily ever after, and there are so few episodes left, I think it's crucial for CQ to leave of her own accord, and to be on her own without these two dominating males orbiting her.
First, this will satisfy the bloodthirst of many viewers who need to see her 'punished' and endure the same heartache and regret thinking him dead that YWY suffered,
Second, she has to become the heroine we were promised from the beginning - the Master of the Wind and Cloud Decree, and the beacon of emancipation that justifies the drama we've been dragged through. Through 60+ episodes she has been an incomplete character stumbling from one crisis (of someone else's making) to another without true agency of her own to determine her own path and purpose.
Truly, this must be one of the longest bouts of amnesia in dramatic history.
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I am not as insightful about people as many of you posting here are, so I must admit to not understanding one aspect of YX at all. So here's my quandary: what does he think he's doing to keep CQ's love?
Circles of relationship/intimacy fundamentally affect how we relate to everyone around us. Our closest circles are family - closer still are life partners and children. CQ doesn't have those inner circles, but she does have the XiuLi army who she feels some personal responsibility for - men who she defied him to return to save. I don't quite understand how YX thinks he can kill and abuse these soldiers of hers (as he's been threatening to do, and proceeds with in the next episodes) and not have her react. Surely he knows her core values and must see that he is pushing her towards a red line that she cannot cross without losing all that defines who she is.
Is he punishing CQ for her recent insubordination or her emotional withdrawal he must be feeling? Is this him reigning her in and proving to CY that he is in charge and not being lead around by the nose? Or has he given up on having her, and is just planning on using her as a lure to kill YWY?
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One interesting point I would make about CQ - it feels like several people have intimated to her the influence that she has with YX and by corollary how she can use that to positively sway him. But she doesn't use her feminine wiles, or emotional manipulation on him ... does that make her honorable and decent, or a foolish numpty?
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Finally: Where do I nominate YQ for best wingman of the year?
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I've enjoyed the few opportunities to wax lyrical about PA characters but reading some of the brilliant character and plot critiques from @40somethingahjumma and @The_Joker (and many others) have made me realise that it's not actually just the drama I've been appreciating but rather the drama and all its unrealised potential as methodologically dissected by this community.
I think it really says something about how special PA is (or could have been) when you have first-time contributors like @rampantwolfhound and @vikachuu10 write such brilliant posts - bravo! And I want to make sure to say it's not just the longer essays I love - it's ALL your witty and comical posts that bring a smile and giggle to the day.
To the writers and producers: Shame on you for botching up what could have been such an imaginably fabulous story and drama.
To ALL of you: Thank you, and <bow>
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Can you truly fathom the sacrifice YWY makes to save CQ? To save her and then to have to leave her there for another man to finish the job.
He is the Young Master of Yuwen Manor, the Heir to the Eyes of God group and the Great General of Wei. The weight of his office and his family's legacy lie heavily on his shoulders - he is not an impetuous or irresponsible man - the call of duty is bred into his bones.
He is an ultra smart cookie. He would have thought through this possibility and its repercussions, Masked or not, is there anyone with two brain cells to rub together who doesn't know it's him rescuing CQ? Betraying his nation, his household and inner circle of loyal agents. Accepting that he may be reviled and cursed as a traitor. All of this for the life and love of a woman.
These last few episodes brought to my mind this poem by William Blake ... I think the first verse is very apt for YWY and CQ.
The Clod and the Pebble
- William Blake"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite."-
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14 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:
Despite being critical of CQ's poorly conceived ideological views and high profile political activities, I still think there's something magical that happens when YWY and CQ come together. It's almost an entirely different show when those two are in the same space. It's as if time stands still for them and all the chaos that all around them don't really matter all that much. Even if those two don't end up together I really like what the romance does for YWY in terms of his personal growth and it pries another side to him in a way that nothing else does. If it weren't for the romance, I don't think we'd see the passionate undercurrents and that boyish almost petulant side to YWY. It's too adorable.
I so love this comment! You can palpably feel the gravitational pull that seems to keep bringing them together - that locking of eyes across a room and then suddenly nothing and no-one else exists. Their attraction is not just electric - they drive each other to evolve and become the best they can be ... emotionally, physically, strategically ...
All of their scenes together have this fission of excitement charging the air and it's deliciously anticipatory for the fans. We never know what we're going to get when they come together.
Will it be sensuous sparring and balletic gymnastics proving their physical affinity and what a perfect matched pair they are. Will it be cute and twosome, like their first 'date' with the rabbit lantern or any of the meals they've had together. Will it be poignant and wistful like their conversation eating sesame cakes, or either of their 'confessions'.
There's an infinite spectrum of emotion in this romance and partnership. I suspect many of the viewers would not have objected to a few intimate and erotic examples, too. Just in the interests of the development and support of the story of course ... nothing gratuitous at all
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@mrsyooknit @velvetsnowflake17 thank you for your kind comments. It was reading contributions from yourselves and others such as @40somethingahjumma (so very compelling and entertaining), @cenching and many more that prompted me to write.
You all have delightfully varying and perceptive interpretations of the lead characters, and of the love that CQ feels for YWY and YX that has had me wondering about something for days.
So, I'd like to ask a hypothetical scenario:
If you were told absolutely that over the course of their time imprisoned and the three years of house-arrest, CQ came to truly love YX - do you think that he would have gone down the path of a Sith Lord (I love that analogy) as he did and sought that particularly bloody form of revenge? Or would he have been more moderate and only tried for the escape? Would the romantic and unconditional love of a good woman have saved him from becoming another Evil Emperor?
Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts!
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It's funny reading all the diverse feelings this community has for our four main leads. The angst and the annoyance, the frustration ... and all the swooning and fluttering hearts :-)Just remember - heroes (YWY and CQ) and royalty (YX and CE) are crafted like that. They're human like us, but at the same time everything about them is supposed to be magnified, and yet also condensed to greater concentrations - the perfections and their flaws, the intensity of their emotions, the extremes to which they will go for love or revenge - they are rich vibrant oils compared to our water-coloured lives.
It goes without saying that their behaviour is often extreme too, and there are greater consequences to their actions. Their lives and loves and squabbles are played out on a much grander scale - involving armies and cities, life and death, and having repercussions much more far-reaching than you or I would have.
Only YWY appreciates this because of his maturity and the burdens of responsibility he has had to shoulder his whole life. CQ is learning this the hard way as now her circle of influence has suddenly expanded and she is responsible for those who have followed her flag, and she sees the devastating effects from what she thought was her simple desire to get YX and herself to Yanbei. YX and CE don't care about the ramifications of their actions - their arrogance arises from their fundamental belief that they are the centre of the universe.
We love our heroes because they show compassion and empathy, and stay true to their core beliefs and values. When they make mistakes they own up to their responsibilities, and sacrifice their own happiness for the greater good. Their nobility comes from their actions and not their bloodlines. This is why CQ is our heroine, despite many people's frustrations with her developing progress.
Most of us despise these royals because they're selfish and self-centered, no matter their beauty and high cheekbones. The possible deaths of 150,000 soldiers and the likely sacking of Chang'an are as nothing compared to CE's belief that she should have her revenge. She might as well be playing chess as far she is concerned - dressed in silk brocade, seated in a palanquin on a blood-soaked battlefield.
War is brutal, and everyone pays a price - YWY quite literally to save his lady-love ... CQ forfeits her belief in YX, her hope that Yanbei would be some sort of utopian paradise, and a soulmate who truly understands and loves her, warts and all ...YX loses his humanity, the legacy that his parents lived by and died for, and the philia of a true friend ... and finally, CE loses her illusory fairy tale world and likely the protection from consequences her royalty previous afforded her.
Now is the time when we distinguish our heroes from our antagonists. Their divergent paths are set by the choices they've made, freely or not. Destiny, and/or the consequences of their actions and fundamental desires, now calls.
Final note: It feels like such a tragedy that Princess Agents has missed that perfect storm - beautiful charismatic actors, with good chemistry between the leads, a fundamentally exciting story with a spunky heroine and a 'still waters run deep' hero - but suffered from sloppy production values and inconsistent story telling. As someone who feels Story is king ... it's enough to weep hot bitter tears.
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I’ve never joined a forum before and never shared any commentary, but I have been truly inspired by the shrewd analyses, funny observations and passionate defences of this ardent community … time to give back a little
In the absence of any intelligent remarks of my own I would like to offer the following quotes to help frame YWY’s recent actions:
If you love someone, set them free, for if they return, they were always yours. And if they don't, they never were
― Attributed to various authorsYou can’t lose what you never had, you can’t keep what’s not yours, and you can’t hold on to something that doesn’t want to stay.
― Damon Suede, Bad Idea
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) that the series will redeem itself before the end.
[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] Ever Night 将夜
in Mainland China
Posted
I believe that a good novel, or dramatization, is one that does not spoon-feed the viewer but rather emotionally engages you to the point that you'll root for the hopes and dreams of characters ... sometimes even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
For those who see SS's actions as forcing NQ to choose between her and MSS - perhaps they might be reminded of episode 21. This was when NQ stood at the peak of the mountain and broke through the illusion faster than LQ to become Mr Thirteen. He recognised the illusory SS ... 'Sang Sang would never force me to make a choice because she trusts that the choices I make are right'.
I think the drama does provide conflicting evidence of NQ's feelings for MSS, contrary to the novel. But at the end of the day it's only a hormonal teenage boy's first crush, which may surface now and again, and give some pause for reflection - that's only human. When push comes to shove NQ makes the only choice that is true to his essential being - because NQ and SS have long imprinted on each other, and no third-party could ever hope to supplant one or the other. They are an exquisite OTP to root for.