Swords and Destiny: Sageuk Poll 2

[Lmangla]

4 minutes ago, Sleepy Owl said:

So no kiss scene but good writing and chemistry between the couple is something I can accept and am fine with. But over use of kisses sometimes really make me feel like either drop the drama (which very rarely happens and did not happen yet because of this) or just fast forward all their scenes together. 

yea absolutely! in daily dramas, there are sometimes one kiss for 120 episodes. but it is fine. whereas in some rom-com, there are so many kisses and while some viewers enjoy it, am left with wondering why we need to see so many! instead, it feels like there is no plot/conflict and so PD/writer is padding the episode by kiss scenes. 

 

in saeguks, rather than kisses, they use politics as padding! LOL... we see the court officials argue and counter argue the same thing in several episodes. it is a like a chess game that doesn't seem to move forward at all in all the middle episodes...

[Sleepy Owl]

25 minutes ago, Lmangla said:

yea absolutely! in daily dramas, there are sometimes one kiss for 120 episodes. but it is fine. whereas in some rom-com, there are so many kisses and while some viewers enjoy it, am left with wondering why we need to see so many! instead, it feels like there is no plot/conflict and so PD/writer is padding the episode by kiss scenes. 

 

in saeguks, rather than kisses, they use politics as padding! LOL... we see the court officials argue and counter argue the same thing in several episodes. it is a like a chess game that doesn't seem to move forward at all in all the middle episodes...

Yeah in Sageuks, we see politics happening, ministers arguing, shouting, and well those scenes from Giseang houses, where they would discuss more confidential plans. But that still feels like something happening, than those 3-4 kiss scenes happening in one episode. 

 

I have not watched any long drama or daily drama, so can't say much about it. But I remember the dramas back then before 2010 and also a couple of year after that would have very few kiss scenes. Sometimes only one in the last episode where we would see the main couple relieved of everything kiss each other. But nowadays, we really see rom-coms leaning more towards the "Rom" part than "Com". But it is fine, I rarely watch them. 

[rocher22]

''Hwarang''

It was a beautiful kiss, even though it was one sided.

 

 

 

 

https://melissaleavesthevillage.wordpress.com/tag/hwarang/

[msdot]

14 hours ago, Thong Thin said:

Does Yeom Byung Soo from Empress Ki annoy you? Are you wondering why he's like a cockroach - why does he refuse to die....?

I just finished Empress Ki and yes, a cockroach!

[partyon]

1 hour ago, msdot said:

I just finished Empress Ki and yes, a cockroach!

 

I had high hopes when he contracted the plague.... But no....

 

[Madu Mita]

Yeonhwa of Scarlet Heart is the most annoying character. 
She plots for her ambition, uses her family , commits crimes but never expresses guilt or remorse.

she blames everything on Hae Soo but she’s so reckless with her tactics. 
Court Lady Oh dies because of her but she gets away with all her crimes and never properly pays for it.

most villains atleast pay the price and express remorse but not her. 
I get that she has ambition but it’s hard for me to root for her when the reason she’s so ambitious is because she wants to be a “god above the king”. 
I love ambitious women but I can’t root for that...

one top of that she’s always complaining and making false promises 

I don’t get why people think she’s strong .., she never suffered as much as Hae Soo and all she had to survive was the consequences of her scheming actions.

 

i hate her but I love the actress playing her though

On another note, Queen Yoo is basically the Karen of Goryeo

[Sleepy Owl]

30 minutes ago, Madu Mita said:

Yeonhwa of Scarlet Heart is the most annoying character. 
She plots for her ambition, uses her family , commits crimes but never expresses guilt or remorse.

she blames everything on Hae Soo but she’s so reckless with her tactics. 
Court Lady Oh dies because of her but she gets away with all her crimes and never properly pays for it.

most villains atleast pay the price and express remorse but not her. 
I get that she has ambition but it’s hard for me to root for her when the reason she’s so ambitious is because she wants to be a “god above the king”. 
I love ambitious women but I can’t root for that...

one top of that she’s always complaining and making false promises 

I don’t get why people think she’s strong .., she never suffered as much as Hae Soo and all she had to survive was the consequences of her scheming actions.

 

i hate her but I love the actress playing her though

On another note, Queen Yoo is basically the Karen of Goryeo

 

You see, we have 2 dramas on same character Wang So, who went on to become Gwangjong of Goryeo, fourth ruler of Goryeo, who was among the best rulers of Goryeo era, given the reforms he brought, most prominant being emancipation of slavery and introduction of Civil services exam, and also allowing people of lower class giving it, which of course later on was abolished. 

 

So coming back to those 2 dramas, Scarlet Heart and Shine or Go Crazy. I would personally go for Scarlet Heart, although I didn't really like both dramas. 

 

What is interesting is portrayal of his brother and mother Queen Yoo. We know they hated him in Scarlet Heart, it was totally opposite in Shine or Go Crazy, and I guess the later one is more historically correct. What actually made me love Scarlet Heart was Wang So telling to Queen Yoo that in the records he'll make them write how loving mother she was and how great their bond was, somewhat following the correct history just in a different way. 

 

@partyon Noona, Queen Yoo is basically winning being the most annoying character, I thought Yeom Byung Soo the cockroach would win it easily, seems like Queen Yoo was more annoying. I did find her annoying, but never thought she would be the one winning it.

[Madu Mita]

1 hour ago, Sleepy Owl said:

 

You see, we have 2 dramas on same character Wang So, who went on to become Gwangjong of Goryeo, fourth ruler of Goryeo, who was among the best rulers of Goryeo era, given the reforms he brought and introduction of Civil services exam, and also allowing people of lower class giving it, which of course later on was abolished. 

 

So coming back to those 2 dramas, Scarlet Heart and Shine or Go Crazy. I would personally go for Scarlet Heart, although I didn't really like both dramas. 

 

What is interesting is portrayal of his brother and mother Queen Yoo. We know they hated him in Scarlet Heart, it was totally opposite in Shine or Go Crazy, and I guess the later one is more historically correct. What actually made me love Scarlet Heart was Wang So telling to Queen Yoo that in the records he'll make them write how loving mother she was and how great their bond was, somewhat following the correct history just in a different way. 

 

@partyon Noona, Queen Yoo is basically winning being the most annoying character, I thought Yeom Byung Soo the cockroach would win it easily, seems like Queen Yoo was more annoying. I did find her annoying, but never thought she would be the one winning it.

I read that too... I heard Yeonhwa was a annoying character there too..

Its so easy to romanticise Gwangjong because he was monogamous and he didn’t trust his own son and wife historically....

 

id like to think they made Yeonhwa so power hungry and despicable to explain why her son never cared about ruling and preferred spending time with commoners 

 

You will lose interest in power too if your father avoids you and suspects you of plotting and your mother is using you for her agenda .....In international  version, YH mom plots against and pushes her grandson to be King because YH betrayed her family and thus you have historical accuracy there too.. Moonlovers was surprisingly very historically accurate towards the end and the writer tried to explain the motivations of very historical character involved.... including Baek Ahs relationship with his niece which was confusing until u search the facts lol

 

i think the writer made Queen Yoo

evil because in original scarlet heart the fourth prince mother doesn’t support him either... so it’s about balancing adaptation and historical accuracy I guess..: it’s done nicely..

 I watched shine or go crazy and they actually have a sweet brotherly bond there lol

[Sleepy Owl]

1 hour ago, Madu Mita said:

I read that too... I heard Yeonhwa was a annoying character there too..

Its so easy to romanticise Gwangjong because he was monogamous and he didn’t trust his own son and wife historically....

 

id like to think they made Yeonhwa so power hungry and despicable to explain why her son never cared about ruling and preferred spending time with commoners 

 

You will lose interest in power too if your father avoids you and suspects you of plotting and your mother is using you for her agenda .....In international  version, YH mom plots against and pushes her grandson to be King because YH betrayed her family and thus you have historical accuracy there too.. Moonlovers was surprisingly very historically accurate towards the end and the writer tried to explain the motivations of very historical character involved.... including Baek Ahs relationship with his niece which was confusing until u search the facts lol

 

i think the writer made Queen Yoo

evil because in original scarlet heart the fourth prince mother doesn’t support him either... so it’s about balancing adaptation and historical accuracy I guess..: it’s done nicely..

 I watched shine or go crazy and they actually have a sweet brotherly bond there lol

You see, about Yeon Hwa as real historical figure, I'd say it depends. Of course in Scarlet Heart, she first pushed Wang Wook forward who was not at all power hungry and not much involved in politics, before sort of betraying him and siding with Wang So after having had married him. 

 

But in reality if we see, their marriage was totally a political one. Firstly it was to maintain the Royal line, because both had same father and atleast in Silla this used to happen that the King and Queen both had to be pure blood or whatever they called it, basically his both parents needed to be directly linked with the Royal family or better say had to be direct descendants of Royal family, as far as I know. Well the King would always be Pure Blood, but Queen had to be found. 

 

So coming back to Yeon Hwa, she was representing the Hwang Clan. Her marriage was a political one, which meant, she was not only Wang So's wife, and Queen, she was also the representative of Hwang Clan and had to protect their interests too. Wang So after coming to power, initially sided with the nobles, in order to get stable in his seat, but then he started targeting Nobles. His reforms were usually against them, especially the Civil services exam he introduced and also the Slave emancipation Law. So in my opinion, it is understandable she had to stand against The King in those times, and also had to push her Son forward and train him in other way so he would undo what his father did. Thus we see him not trusting his son and even willing to execute him for plans of treason.

 

I actually liked Moon Lovers with their efforts to stick to History. As for Queen Yoo, well I said, I really liked how they showed her evil for the plot similarity as you mentioned, but then pulled a nice move to make it also historically accurate by showing Wang So tampering the actual story of his with her. 

[Madu Mita]

@Sleepy Owl Yeah, I understand he reality.

But in moonlovers she was power hungry for a long time and decided she wanted her son to be on the throne long back. In the last conversation they have, she hints that it was just a policy dedicated to Soo and is shown to be jealous over it. Though in reality, the Queen has to represent her clan, in Moonlovers she basically opposed it because she viewed it as a gift to Soo, which I found petty.Again it was all about her interests and her offences  and not so much her clans interest .  I was puzzled at why they made her so narcissistic , greedy and selfish but I guess like I mentioned, it was the writers attempt to explain the future historical happenings. Like in the show, it was because she betrayed her family that her family plots overthrow her and thus Wook’s son becomes King etc... and So never trusts her and suspects his own son because she was too ambitious and cunning.

Moonlovers tried to explain why Gwangjong did the things he did so in the show, so they make him into a political hostage to explain his hatred and show how corrupt his Royal family and the clans were and it was actually true...

 

the only sympathetic light I’ve seen her is in Empress Cheonchu but there Gwangjong is criticised and is shown to be merciless killer easily swayed by rumours who kills her and she dies protecting her son... But that has no

historical backing but it was done because Hwangbos take centre stage in the story..

 

I like Moonlovers ending and I would love to see a drama where mom and daughter fight for the throne like it suggested ... it would be interesting..

 

But Yeonhwa in Moonlovers really had little going for her character other than beauty and intelligence.. .she had ambitions but it wasn’t beyond her own power and she never showed true understanding of responsibility of the throne . I’m guessing it’s to wrap and explain why Gwangjong hated and never trusted his wife...

 

at the end of the day, Saguks are historically accurate depending who’s based on or who it’s trying to paint as a hero

 

in reality we’ll never know why they had a cold marriage..we can only guess . Maybe both had their own agendas for the throne and never reached the middle ground

 

 

[Sleepy Owl]

57 minutes ago, Madu Mita said:

@Sleepy Owl Yeah, I understand he reality.

But in moonlovers she was power hungry for a long time and decided she wanted her son to be on the throne long back. In the last conversation they have, she hints that it was just a policy dedicated to Soo and is shown to be jealous over it. Though in reality, the Queen has to represent her clan, in Moonlovers she basically opposed it because she viewed it as a gift to Soo, which I found petty.Again it was all about her interests and her offences  and not so much her clans interest .  I was puzzled at why they made her so narcissistic , greedy and selfish but I guess like I mentioned, it was the writers attempt to explain the future historical happenings. Like in the show, it was because she betrayed her family that her family plots overthrow her and thus Wook’s son becomes King etc... and So never trusts her and suspects his own son because she was too ambitious and cunning.

Moonlovers tried to explain why Gwangjong did the things he did so in the show, so they make him into a political hostage to explain his hatred and show how corrupt his Royal family and the clans were and it was actually true...

 

the only sympathetic light I’ve seen her is in Empress Cheonchu but there Gwangjong is criticised and is shown to be merciless killer easily swayed by rumours who kills her and she dies protecting her son... But that has no

historical backing but it was done because Hwangbos take centre stage in the story..

 

I like Moonlovers ending and I would love to see a drama where mom and daughter fight for the throne like it suggested ... it would be interesting..

 

But Yeonhwa in Moonlovers really had little going for her character other than beauty and intelligence.. .she had ambitions but it wasn’t beyond her own power and she never showed true understanding of responsibility of the throne . I’m guessing it’s to wrap and explain why Gwangjong hated and never trusted his wife...

 

at the end of the day, Saguks are historically accurate depending who’s based on or who it’s trying to paint as a hero

 

in reality we’ll never know why they had a cold marriage..we can only guess . Maybe both had their own agendas for the throne and never reached the middle ground

 

 

I like the points you pointed out and in my opinion you are right about the portrayal of Yeon Hwa's character. What I really want to see is a proper Sageuk made on Gwangjong made. Not something like Moon Lovers or Shine or Go Crazy, but something maybe similar to "Six Flying Dragons" which was based on Yi Bang Won who was later known as King Taejong. Something more historically correct, with more attention given to Wang So. Some proper reason why he was not initially favored by his father (if it is true), not some lame excuses like him being cursed or him having scars on his face and not as beautiful as other sons.

 

Because this guy was one of the reasons Goryeo got stable, and went on for hundreds of years, as he actually took a lot of power away from Noble Clans who did influence Goryeo politics after him, but not that much. He could be compared with Taejong of Joseon in terms of being ruthless to certain noble clans and his throne competitors along with his rule with iron fist and also to Sejong (Still Sejong achieved more), in terms of reforms he brought for the nation. So in my opinion it is a waste to not make a proper Sageuk on character like him. 

 

Hopefully we'll get some good Sageuks next year, the most recent one I watched was "My Country: The New Age" and liked it a lot. 

[Madu Mita]

5 minutes ago, Sleepy Owl said:

I like the points you pointed out and in my opinion you are right about the portrayal of Yeon Hwa's character. What I really want to see is a proper Sageuk made on Gwangjong made. Not something like Moon Lovers or Shine or Go Crazy, but something maybe similar to "Six Flying Dragons" which was based on Yi Bang Won who was later known as King Taejong. Something more historically correct, with more attention given to Wang So. Some proper reason why he was not initially favored by his father (if it is true), not some lame excuses like him being cursed or him having scars on his face and not as beautiful as other sons.

 

Because this guy was one of the reasons Goryeo got stable, and went on for hundreds of years, as he actually took a lot of power away from Noble Clans who did influence Goryeo politics after him, but not that much. He could be compared with Taejong of Joseon in terms of being ruthless to certain noble clans and his throne competitors along with his rule with iron fist and also to Sejong (Still Sejong achieved more), in terms of reforms he brought for the nation. So in my opinion it is a waste to not make a proper Sageuk on character like him. 

 

Hopefully we'll get some good Sageuks next year, the most recent one I watched was "My Country: The New Age" and liked it a lot. 

Yeah , historically he seems to be a very ambitious person. 

But since he's romanticised a lot we just see him as a epic romantic hero as sorts and not shrewed and calculating King, which he is.

From what I gather , his father favored him because he was excellent in many things, and he was not a scarred or abused hostage or ones raised far away like we see in moonlovers or shine or go crazy.

 

I think he was ambitious prince who plotted with his brother. Someone in moonlovers forum also mentioned that there were rumours surrounding his marraige to his sister, and that she liked him for long and had seduced him which is intresting... but i doubt mordern viewers will accept it since theyre siblings lol.. I guess as long as he's centre stage Daemok will always have negative Characterisation to explain his behaviour towards her...unless the Saeguk doesn't mind taking risks and show him as a bad husband...

 

In my opinion Good emperors don't make good husbands..

 

Even in moonlovers his pride and refusal to listen to anybody but himself is a part of his character. It makes him a good King but it affects his relationship with Soo in the end and makes it very tragic..

 

I think he was a stubborn person but I would like more depth on  why he hated nobles other political hostage with a scar.. I think it was because he saw how coupt they were and how they tried to take all the power for themselves...I think he was a good king because he saw things no one else did but was also very power hungry ....since he declared himself emperor and tried to take power away from nobles too..

 

Romantiscing him takes away from that... Besides one has to have a serious ego to push through all opposition lol....Its intesting.. power and charaterisation because you really have to be the absolute worst to retain power usually

[croquembouche2018]

Tyvm for organizing the event @Lmangla and @partyon, thank you too for tagging me.

TBH this poll event becomes a reminder that I haven't watched that many sageuks. 

Anyways, here goes my selection ;

1. Who is Your Favourite Second Lead?

 

My first vote goes to the brooding, aloof bad boy of Sungkyunkwan Scandal, Moon Jae Shin a.k.a Geul Oh. This drama got me infected with acute second lead syndrom and made me wish the FL would end up with the second lead instead.

 

My second choice is the gentle, kind-hearted Prince Yangmyung of The Moon Embracing The Sun.

 

2. Best Kiss in a sageuk.

 

Tough choices, even after having watched the video clips featured for reference. I finally pick 100 Days My Prince and The King : Master of the Mask.

 

3. The Most Annoying Character.

 

Yeom Byung Soo of Empress Ki, of  course.

 

P. S.

I don't understand either why it is so hard to find abs and steamy kisses in sageuk. I mean, did the way people kiss in ancient  times differ from the way their modern counterparts do? Were they that repressed in their private moment?

Also, in case there are writers or PDs lurking here, I'd like to suggest/remind about what kind of scenes that may serve to prevent those sinewy abs and fine muscles of sageuk's actors go to waste by forever hidden in those layers of clothing  :

 

*martial arts/sport practice

*wound healing/inner force transfer

*royal disrobe

*birthmark inspection.

 

Etc etc......

 

[Sleepy Owl]

13 hours ago, Madu Mita said:

Yeah , historically he seems to be a very ambitious person. 

But since he's romanticised a lot we just see him as a epic romantic hero as sorts and not shrewed and calculating King, which he is.

From what I gather , his father favored him because he was excellent in many things, and he was not a scarred or abused hostage or ones raised far away like we see in moonlovers or shine or go crazy.

 

I think he was ambitious prince who plotted with his brother. Someone in moonlovers forum also mentioned that there were rumours surrounding his marraige to his sister, and that she liked him for long and had seduced him which is intresting... but i doubt mordern viewers will accept it since theyre siblings lol.. I guess as long as he's centre stage Daemok will always have negative Characterisation to explain his behaviour towards her...unless the Saeguk doesn't mind taking risks and show him as a bad husband...

 

In my opinion Good emperors don't make good husbands..

 

Even in moonlovers his pride and refusal to listen to anybody but himself is a part of his character. It makes him a good King but it affects his relationship with Soo in the end and makes it very tragic..

 

I think he was a stubborn person but I would like more depth on  why he hated nobles other political hostage with a scar.. I think it was because he saw how coupt they were and how they tried to take all the power for themselves...I think he was a good king because he saw things no one else did but was also very power hungry ....since he declared himself emperor and tried to take power away from nobles too..

 

Romantiscing him takes away from that... Besides one has to have a serious ego to push through all opposition lol....Its intesting.. power and charaterisation because you really have to be the absolute worst to retain power usually

You see, sometimes there was always a King needed to stabilize the Dynasty by Iron Fist. Taejo of Goryeo could only unify 3 nations, because he had the support of the Big Noble Clans, and thus had to marry a daughter of each clan officially. Which meant those Noble Clans had intentions of influencing the politics of the country as they believed they had also contributed in the Nation being established. But their influences were usually selfish and for their own Clans and not for the country. Thus there was someone needed to redefine their place in politics and other affairs. Same thing Yi Bang Won did and same was done by Wang So. 

 

Thank you for the point of him being among the favorites of his father. I never read about it, but thought it could be true, Princes having Daddy issues is not a new thing. So as I said, there was always a need to push nobles back to their seat, otherwise they would try to control you. It was "Control or be Controlled" type of situation. In Goryeo we had the King having absolute power, which was not the case in Joseon Era. If you properly look into their constitution, Jeong Do Jeon made, would give main powers to ministers and take away the power from King making him a puppet, which happened to most Joseon Era rulers. This could easily happen in Goryeo time too, so well Wang So had to rule with Iron Fist. Plus he was not your regular tyrant, if he attacked the Nobles to have absolute power, he did work for the common people with his new rules and reforms. If you want me to give you immediate example of what are benefits of rule of iron fist, I would say Taejong of Joseon's rule had immediate impact.

 

Taejong of Joseon ruled like that and thus Sejong actually got the platform to introduce Hangul, which actually faced a big backlash from the Nobles, but he could go for it, because his father was Taejong, and many Nobles and Ministers had seen first hand what would happen when a King would turn crazy and go on a rampage on those who oppose him. Had Sejong being some ruler somewhere towards the end or even middle in line of Joseon Rulers, he would have a hard time doing whatever he wanted to do. Of course, that was one of the factors and others were his excellent diplomacy and knowledge which would leave Ministers baffled too. I really have respect for Joseon Rulers who actually could do certain things they wanted for the public, because it meant that they political geniuses to have survived the powerful Ministers and make them accept your orders. 

 

As for Good Kings being Good Husbands, well firstly almost all Queens in both Joseon Era and Goryeo Era were ladies of powerful Clans who were married to the King for political purposes. So its obvious that the King would not really look at them as their wife, but sometimes as someone who can easily backstab them. And well, they countless spouses and concubines, question was not who he loved, sometimes the question would be who he actually was really fond of or who was his most favorite.

 

You might although find some examples where the ladies were loved by the King husbands, like Choi Suk Bin of Joseon who was married to Sukjong of Joseon. Some even say Sukjong was also fond of Jang Hee Bin, but she had to be executed for her evil deeds to Queen In Hyun. We might find some more examples like this, but they are very few. 

 

 

 

[vangsweetie637]

I just casted my votes in so I wouldn’t miss the poll since it closes at 10am when i am still sleeping  

 

i will come back to share my answers. 
 

@partyon the last kiss scene option is not from Rebel. It’s from another drama called “My Only Love Song.” When i saw that option as kiss number 2, I was like “huh?” But thought perhaps someone nominated another kiss scene from that drama since there were quite a few. I went to check and realize it was the second nominee I gave and went “dang it. It was also the kiss scene I nominated!” 

[partyon]

23 minutes ago, vangsweetie637 said:

I just casted my votes in so I wouldn’t miss the poll since it closes at 10am when i am still sleeping  

 

i will come back to share my answers. 
 

@partyon the last kiss scene option is not from Rebel. It’s from another drama called “My Only Love Song.” When i saw that option as kiss number 2, I was like “huh?” But thought perhaps someone nominated another kiss scene from that drama since there were quite a few. I went to check and realize it was the second nominee I gave and went “dang it. It was also the kiss scene I nominated!” 

 

Woops, sorry about that..... I understood it was from Rebel.

I shall change the name of the drama in the poll

 

Good catch!

 

[Madu Mita]

@Sleepy Owl I like what you said about corrupt clans . I’ve read about that too. Taejong and Sejong are really a rare pair in history because both father and son had great interest in ruling and did things to stabilise the country. 
The same cannot be said for Gwangjong and his son , because apparently he mistrusted him from when he was five and only let him live because he was his only surviving son. Why would he do that unless there were people who around who influenced him? I guess that’s why in Saeguks Daemok is always power hungry and evil, because they show that since mom was like that, son was not trusted too. Anyway,his son wasn’t all that noteworthy and he died young and was succeeded by his cousin who was a better King ,but his successors sadly retracted his reforms. Atleast Taejong’s reforms weren’t retracted so quickly. 
From what I’ve read , romance and love were considered to be a commoner experience back then. Even in literature, most nobles valued loyalty and logic , and power over love or family. There are very few love stories ,King Sukjong has the most famous harem in Korean history I guess... But romance was really a rare occurrence in Royalty because power gets in the way in most cases. Even if you aren’t power hungry , your family and clan influences your marriage and position.Like Queen Dagyeong , who lost her power because her father supported former king. It’s sad because they apparently loved each other and popular folklore is he missed and always looked at her direction. Queen for seven days is based on that..I think there were love stories, we just never hear about them ... because feelings can’t be controlled and though they pretend they’re above romance they’re human too...
But realistically most imperial harems are concubines and queens trying to win kings heart or favour for power and competing with each other..

I doubt there were many who actually liked the king for who he is lol..it was just women trying to impress him to get something from him..but saeguks have meet cute ,childhood romance, bromance in gender bending costume etc..etc.. rarely there was women who understood her position and acted accordingly... it’s always jealous woman against each other .....

[Sleepy Owl]

6 hours ago, Madu Mita said:

@Sleepy Owl I like what you said about corrupt clans . I’ve read about that too. Taejong and Sejong are really a rare pair in history because both father and son had great interest in ruling and did things to stabilise the country. 
The same cannot be said for Gwangjong and his son , because apparently he mistrusted him from when he was five and only let him live because he was his only surviving son. Why would he do that unless there were people who around who influenced him? I guess that’s why in Saeguks Daemok is always power hungry and evil, because they show that since mom was like that, son was not trusted too. Anyway,his son wasn’t all that noteworthy and he died young and was succeeded by his cousin who was a better King ,but his successors sadly retracted his reforms. Atleast Taejong’s reforms weren’t retracted so quickly. 
From what I’ve read , romance and love were considered to be a commoner experience back then. Even in literature, most nobles valued loyalty and logic , and power over love or family. There are very few love stories ,King Sukjong has the most famous harem in Korean history I guess... But romance was really a rare occurrence in Royalty because power gets in the way in most cases. Even if you aren’t power hungry , your family and clan influences your marriage and position.Like Queen Dagyeong , who lost her power because her father supported former king. It’s sad because they apparently loved each other and popular folklore is he missed and always looked at her direction. Queen for seven days is based on that..I think there were love stories, we just never hear about them ... because feelings can’t be controlled and though they pretend they’re above romance they’re human too...
But realistically most imperial harems are concubines and queens trying to win kings heart or favour for power and competing with each other..

I doubt there were many who actually liked the king for who he is lol..it was just women trying to impress him to get something from him..but saeguks have meet cute ,childhood romance, bromance in gender bending costume etc..etc.. rarely there was women who understood her position and acted accordingly... it’s always jealous woman against each other .....

 

You see the main difference between Yi Bang Won and Wang So was, Yi Bang Won made Sejong the King during his time and acted as a Regent for almost 4 years assisting him. Of course, he did cause some interferences in Sejong's initial rule, many may argue that even then Taejong had the absolute power, but he sort of stabilized Sejong's place like this. When he decided to replace his eldest son with Sejong as Crown Prince, he launched a purge on all officials who opposed it. This included Queen's two brothers too, as the first crown prince was her son and Sejong was son of a concubine. 

 

Anyway, Taejong ensured Sejong would rule with much more ease. That's why we saw Sejong even bringing people of lower class in the palace who had special skills. Best example would be Jang Young Sil. Taejong and Sejong's vision for Joseon as nation was similar, their methods were different. They both actually worked for the nation, well Taejong worked a bit harder for his seat too, but well they were among the strongest Kings in Joseon with great achievements.

 

Now as for the Kings, all their moves were watched by both supporters and their enemies. They could not love openly, as it would only bring political troubles for him and more troubles for the woman he would show love/interest to. We see almost all of them had concubines, but very few of them could be promoted. So yes as you said, romance and love was a luxury for the Kings, and was something only commoners could do. Queens would rarely look for the King to love them. Firstly because they had the position of First Lady, no one would be in right in their mind to barter that position with love. Plus as I said before, almost Queens were married to Kings in Joseon and Goryeo Eras for political purposes. 

 

So as you said, Imperial Harem was full of concubines and potential Queens who would fight each other for ranks and also for King's recognition. The palace politics involved the women of palace, be it a concubine, Dowager Queen or maids. Kings had very little role in it, so we can see how much of conspiracies actually would start from the maids or the concubines. And well Sukjong indeed had the most famous Harem in Korean History along with Taejo of Goryeo I guess. Taejo had like 16 legitimate sons and don't know how many legitimate daughters. Can't say how many children he had overall. 

 

As for Sageuks, you said right. They have to include all those lovey-dovey scenes. King loving a maid and she being safe is not a normal thing. Same goes with kisses in Sageuks. Joseon Era was the most conservative era in Korean History, so seeing the ML and FL all lovey dovey on streets and kissing all, actually would be very difficult to be done back then. Now they have to show it as fan service too sometimes. But it's fine as long as they ensure that the story is good. 

[Madu Mita]

@Sleepy Owl I love the conversation we’re having ! I’ve always loved to discuss saeguks and women in saeguks especially. In most cases ,we have two kinds of women, innocent women who loves the hero and is favoured by King, or power Hungry women who are always evil... both are not historically accurate and usually lack depth or purpose...

Sometimes Saeguks love to shade and dilute the characters they’re based on like Jang Ok Jang..where Jang Hee bin is not evil ... Sometimes they romanticise for plot like Queen for Seven days where the main character, based on actual Queen is caught in love triangles between two Kings..the only Saeguk that I saw where a ambitious woman wasn’t all that pointless greed and evil is My Country...

But audience expectation is quite influential it’s why you get characters

like Goo Hae Ryung who by historical accuracy is impossible to exist ... but that’s what you get when you want “strong female lead” but her character is too unrealistic 

 

Moonlovers and My Country was actually quite close to reality from what I’ve seen...but Korea doesn’t have all that popular Concubine dramas like China does.. I guess as long as there’s audience expectation and tropes there will always be romanticisation. There will always be a romance plot while in reality most women I presume were aware of what they can have and just accepted fate... but that won’t be an interesting crowd pleasing stories.

 

we haven’t gotten a Saeguk with an ambitious maid though...atleast I’m not aware 

 

Corrupt clans are such Saeguk classic but it was actually true .. most nobles just cared about their power and influence and even in  Kings, only those that understood the reality and responsibility like the Kings discussed above became noteworthy ... ..

 

One of the interesting moments in Moonlovers is episode thirteen where King Taejo before dying actually entrusts Hae Soo with the task of bringing the crown prince before he dies.. His reason? It’s precisely because she lacks any personal agenda that she’s bought here.. and like his wish, with Hae Soo’s help , the crown Prince gets there and becomes King. It’s all story and unreal but it’s interesting take.. like the less you envision power for yourself the greater you’re influence is.. In Moonlovers it’s precisely why she ends up having such an influence in politics too and basically plays a role in influencing so many kings.. gets you wondering how many maids or court ladies , servants were involved in shaping politics that we never hear about.. 
 

Like you mentioned in Moonlovers,her relationship with the princes only brings her danger and she is used by So’s enemies against him...which is why leaving turns out be the best option for her but most fans are ruthless on her for that ... her character gets so much hate but the writer actually set the stage and made it clear that there was no happiness and safety in the palace...it’s precisely because she left she can protect her baby but most fans don’t get that and just want easy romance..

 

I think unless we fix certain audience expectations we can hardly have historical accurate characters because actual history, especially royal historical is hardly romantic and most characters cannot afford romance...but female characters just get hated on because they can’t provide sweet ending and stay with a man who puts them in danger...

 

[vangsweetie637]

I chose the two kiss that I thought was good enough for a saeguk  (Arang and Rebel). For second lead...dang..i forgot. But I do know i chose Eun San for the annoying lead. I remember how frustrated i got because she just couldn’t choose who she wanted to be with. Even to the point where I went:

 

i was seriously annoyed lol.