Jump to content

Recommended Posts

26 minutes ago, itsmeash said:

Every time I watch a show like this, it just makes me realize how much my mind is more morally grey than i'd like it to be. Maybe my mind would be way different IRL, but when it comes to shows/movies like this with vigilante characters and characters who kill but only kill bad people, I completely get it and understand it. Now if there is a show/movie where the vigilante characters also kill innocent people, that's a whole different story. I don't accept those cases. But those like say Vincenzo (aside from his past because who knows who he killed before the series started) and The Punisher for examples, it's easy for me to be like yeah I love them, even though they've killed and still kill, because they do draw a line at killing innocent people at least, which is such a morally grey way of thinking. 

 

This. I don't know if it's a cultural issue between how Koreans and Americans view anti-heroes, but I feel like Koreans see it more black-and-white? I don't really think of Vincenzo as a villain (never mind a villain worse than the 4 Babel folks combined - ahem, SJK) and it is really frustrating to me when people say Vincenzo is evil, needs to be locked up in jail, a mafia person is a bad person, goes against the law, etc.

 

The system is broken, corrupt, and evil. Mafias, triads, gangs sometimes provide order and stability in a way that the normal avenues (government institutions) cannot, especially in super corrupt countries (e.g. Brazil). When you live in a system where it's rotten from top down, and the organizations you should be able to turn to for help: corporations, the judiciary, police, lawyers are all corrupt and killing civilians, are you still supposed to play by the rules? Vincenzo exists inside a corrupt system and it's almost necessary for him to be who he else, else all the small folk will get screwed over.

 

I don't think VC is evil at all. What definition of evil are people working off of here? I think it's the system that's evil. Instead of pointing fingers at Vincenzo, people should be asking why the system is so broken that someone like Vincenzo needs to exist in order to serve out vigilante justice and clean up the garbage.

  • Like 5
  • Insightful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It seems that I am of minority here who LOVED the ending to bits. It was a very satisfying ending for me. Major kudos to the writers for sticking to their guns. They allowed Vincenzo to embody a mafia

I couldn't agree more! That was a perfect kiss scene. From the very beginning, when the gallery director  started chanting for a kiss, you could see CY having that look of inner turmoil, but finally c

I hear you! I also don't think he's the same as Han Seung Hyeok, Choi Myung Hee, and Jang Han Seok, like, at all. Choi Myung Hee and Jang Han Seok were evil to the bone—I absolutely don't see Vincenzo

3 minutes ago, Le_Amarant said:

 

This. I don't know if it's a cultural issue between how Koreans and Americans view anti-heroes, but I feel like Koreans see it more black-and-white? I don't really think of Vincenzo as a villain (never mind a villain worse than the 4 Babel folks combined - ahem, SJK) and it is really frustrating to me when people say Vincenzo is evil, needs to be locked up in jail, a mafia person is a bad person, goes against the law, etc.

 

The system is broken, corrupt, and evil. Mafias, triads, gangs sometimes provide order and stability in a way that the normal avenues (government institutions) cannot, especially in super corrupt countries (e.g. Brazil). When you live in a system where it's rotten from top down, and the organizations you should be able to turn to for help: corporations, the judiciary, police, lawyers are all corrupt and killing civilians, are you still supposed to play by the rules? Vincenzo exists inside a corrupt system and it's almost necessary for him to be who he else, else all the small folk will get screwed over.

 

I don't think VC is evil at all. I think it's the system that's evil. Instead of pointing fingers at Vincenzo, people should be asking why the system is so broken that someone like Vincenzo needs to exist in order to serve out vigilante justice and clean up the garbage.

I'm right there with you. Just like IRL, as I mentioned cops/soldiers/etc., just because someone does bad things, it does not mean they are bad people. To me, the difference is whether you have regrets or not. If you kill, but regret it or hate that you did it or that you do it, then you're not entirely bad in my mind. Now if you kill because you think it's fun and because you can, that's bad. You're a bad person no matter how you spin it. 

 

V's last words explain it all, "i don't believe in justice." And I get it, so many times justice is never given IRL, Murders/Rapists/etc. get off completely free because they have rich parents or they themselves are rich or because of their skin color while the victims suffer for the rest of their lives. Lawful justice does not always exist and that's where characters like V and TP come in. And it's why so many victims even seem to prefer vigilantes to cops and others who "can help them," because help doesn't always actually help you. And good does not always prevail sadly.

 

Now obviously this does not pertain to all because some bad guys really are just straight up bad guys like Babel. They were bad just because they could be and because rich daddy covered up his son's crimes with money. So many things are not as black and white as everyone would like them to be. Good and Evil are not the only things, hence why a grey area does often times exist.

  • Like 4
  • Insightful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, peachfuzz said:

I don’t really feel like he was forced into cruelty. Unlike Han Seok and Myung Hee, Vincenzo has a sense of morality, so I think it’s only natural that he’s haunted by the evil he’s committed, and I think there is a part of him that does wish to be cleansed of his sin, but from what he told the monk, it’s also evident that he doesn’t want to let go of his mafia life, either. I feel like he’s torn about the whole thing because he has that sense of morality but unwilling to let go because he can’t bear to see people more evil than he is. 

V has always started as a tragic character- 'abandoned' by his birth mother and then having his foster parents murdered. He may/may not have joined the mafia willingly but his potential for brutality is evident in Ep 20. This may be residual anger/ emotional issues due to his traumatic childhood or learnt survival behaviour/ desensitised to violence because of the mafia, but choices were made. He could have dealt with delivering death by more efficient means but he chose to play cat/ mouse with his victims and even aquired a name for his tendencies. Even Mr. Cho asked him why don't they just kill them already!

 

These are choices. He could have killed his foster parent's killer quickly but chose to torture him for years (to the point of suicide) before killing him. He didn't go into too much detail but V's 'killing' could be seen in a different light since the final episode!

 

It is precisely his morailty that makes him more frightening as he commits such vicious acts. Even so- I am still totally rallying for him! Go Vincenzo! Rid the work of scum that justice can't touch! 

 

  • Like 6
  • Insightful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, itsmeash said:

V's last words explain it all, "i don't believe in justice." And I get it, so many times justice is never given IRL, Murders/Rapists/etc. get off completely free because they have rich parents or they themselves are rich or because of their skin color while the victims suffer for the rest of their lives. Lawful justice does not always exist and that's where characters like V and TP come in. And it's why so many victims even seem to prefer vigilantes to cops and others who "can help them," because help doesn't always actually help you. And good does not always prevail sadly.

 

Yep. Just look at the US justice system and the way it treats certain groups of people.

 

9 minutes ago, meix2 said:

V has always started as a tragic character- 'abandoned' by his birth mother and then having his foster parents murdered. He may/may not have joined the mafia willingly but his potential for brutality is evident in Ep 20. This may be residual anger/ emotional issues due to his traumatic childhood or learnt survival behaviour/ desensitised to violence because of the mafia, but choices were made. He could have dealt with delivering death by more efficient means but he chose to play cat/ mouse with his victims and even aquired a name for his tendencies. Even Mr. Cho asked him why don't they just kill them already!

 

I see what you're saying. I think it's just that for 16 episodes, the show was glamourising him being a mafia and making light of it (all those Corn Salad references), and then for the show to get serious about the mafia piece in the last few episodes (especially last episode) really threw me for a loop.

 

I'm actually having difficulty going back and watching earlier episodes because they seem almost divorced from the final episode.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have come to the conclusion that if i didn't watch this show as it aired i wouldn't binge watch it. I like comedy and dramas with crazy plots and although vincenzo had comedy in it i think that it is a boring show. I never laughed at the scenes with the tenants and i still didn't really like them towards the ending. As someone who isn't a fan of the system i liked how he punished babo and the rest and i also liked how he knew that he was also trash like them. I feel like people are ignoring the fact that vincenzo probably killed innocent people just like babo.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, itsmeash said:

I'm right there with you. Just like IRL, as I mentioned cops/soldiers/etc., just because someone does bad things, it does not mean they are bad people. To me, the difference is whether you have regrets or not. If you kill, but regret it or hate that you did it or that you do it, then you're not entirely bad in my mind. Now if you kill because you think it's fun and because you can, that's bad. You're a bad person no matter how you spin it. 

 

V's last words explain it all, "i don't believe in justice." And I get it, so many times justice is never given IRL, Murders/Rapists/etc. get off completely free because they have rich parents or they themselves are rich or because of their skin color while the victims suffer for the rest of their lives. Lawful justice does not always exist and that's where characters like V and TP come in. And it's why so many victims even seem to prefer vigilantes to cops and others who "can help them," because help doesn't always actually help you. And good does not always prevail sadly.

 

Now obviously this does not pertain to all because some bad guys really are just straight up bad guys like Babel. They were bad just because they could be and because rich daddy covered up his son's crimes with money. So many things are not as black and white as everyone would like them to be. Good and Evil are not the only things, hence why a grey area does often times exist.

This starts to go into the area of what is considered justice? Is death the ultimate justice or do we mean eye-for-an eye justice?

Desipte the fact I think Vincenzo is generally doing a good thing by cleaning up scum, the torture scenes were excessive and crossed the line- it was unnecessary. I can see why it was writen that way but it moved away from killing because of a greater good or cause.

 

To take the cops/soldiers analogy, they may kill someone in the line of duty which does not make them bad but it would be entirely different if they intentionally tortured a person to death.  Plus, if you repeatedly do bad things and then regret it everytime, does that make you less of a bad person? Whether V is bad or not doesn't really matter because the point is that he is a necessary evil that society needs because it is broken. He repeated acknowleges himself as the villain, 'scum', 'evil', 'the devil' etc. and we love him for it.

  • Like 7
  • Insightful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Le_Amarant said:

@bee_wannabe The thing is, as I watched the drama progress, I was under the impression that VC wanted to leave the mafia world behind and he was haunted by his mafia experiences. It felt like he was forced unwillingly into that world initially - because his mother "abandoned" him and his foster parents then got cruelly killed - so he fell into the mafia world bc of the cruelty of life rather than consciously choosing to be in it.

 

I never got the sense that he particularly embraced the mafia side of him. It was almost a necessity that he learned for survival. Korea was his one chance to break out of it. For him to be stuck in that darkness is tragic.

 

That's one of the loophole. And that brings me back to my unresolved question about his nightmare. Just like you i also got the same impression that he unwillingly joins the mafia life and regrets what he's done. But after trying to see the drama from PJB point of view and connecting it to HYC's last request for him to be the monster, as well as his conversation with the monk about his anger, i get the feeling that his mom's death and that last nightmare is the turning point.

 

All of this time before the last nightmare happens he only helps CY for his own benefit. Avenging his friend/mentor, getting back his building to save his gold, helping CY whom he cares for. It is never about other people. He's never that noble. This aligned to his way of sharing the gold. He shares it only to those who is directly involved.

 

His intention starts to shift after her mother's death. I think here's when the nightmare plays an important part. He sees the child who has just lost his parents because of him. Then he sees his mom hugging him and calling him. I think it gives him understanding that he and his mom is a victim of the corrupt system. Topic of capitalism is brought up several times in the drama. And seeing the bigger picture, his mom and the geumga people are all the victims of capitalism. They are forced to choose harsh life to survive the jungle. His old self, a mafia who backs up other form of capitalism/businessman, creates another Joo Young who needs to survive at young age. It's a cycle that needs to stop.

 

At that time his priority is revenge. His anger of her mother's death can only be relieved by paying back the criminals nth times of what they did. He knows it's not right, so in the end he consults it once more to the head monk. That in the end he goes back to his old way to relieve his anger and he'll feel regret and anguish for the rest of his life. The monk reassures him that Buddha will still compliment him if he brings down the evil just like how Vaisravana keeps yakshas and rakshasas in check. I think this is when his intention truly changes to taking the mafia way to tame the villains. And I also think that this gives him the hope that he deserves small portion of luxury called attachment to this world/love/affection and that pushes him to make effort in the relationship with CY.

 

He said the island serves several purpose. A hideout, a refuge for the loved ones and place of healing. So the way i see it is that he's building the good mafia organization consisting of people similar to him who are unwillingly put in difficult grey field due to the capitalism and providing safe place called Jipuragi island for those involved.

  • Like 3
  • Insightful 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Le_Amarant said:

I'm actually having difficulty going back and watching earlier episodes because they seem almost divorced from the final episode.

Not me. I'm gonna prepare next weekend and binge it from start to finish. Having seen it in agonising 'real-time'- I'm gonna enjoy the binge experience!:piggydance:

  • LOL 2
  • Blob 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Very much enjoying reading all the many comments, posts and debates about the ending and the writer's intent.  It is interesting because watching episode 17 to 20 I was thinking the drama had become exactly what a lot of people wanted it to be at the beginning. Remember in the early weeks of the drama when many people were complaining and disappointed by the light tone, it wasn't dark enough, there was too much comedy, Vincenzo was too tame, his wins were too small, he needed to go back to his brutal mafia self, etc..? Then people gradually began to accept and love the story, the characters and were lulled into a comfortableness until episode 17 when the drama became more like what people were expecting it to be at the start and they weren't ready!  I do agree the tonal shifts could have been handled better and that's why some people feel especially cheated.  It is heartbreaking because after two and a half month we want these characters we have come to love and care about over the past two and a half months to have a truly happy ending in a better world rather than a dark, bittersweet (and Han Seo's death) ending in a still very dark world:cry:

 

As much as i loved this drama I agree it wasn't perfect but still I haven't been this invested in a  drama and its characters in a long time. As @bee_wannabe stated above I think this finale was ultimately a manifestation of Park Jae Bum's own frustrations at corrupt society couple and influenced by his own moral beliefs.  After this very dark and bittersweet ending I'm certain the struggle over the ending that made them delay for a week was deciding if they should/could go as dark as they did ( @TheaN's comment about the "Spear of Atonement" being made quickly at the end backs this up).  I think up until episode 15 or 16 the writer was still undecided about how dark he would take the story and the character of Vincenzo and whether there would be happiness and redemption.  Once the writer made the decision to have Vincenzo's mother murdered was the tipping point (ETA: just saw @bee_wannabe had the same opinion about the killing of Vincenzo mother in her latest post)

 

On 5/2/2021 at 5:52 PM, suzy0604 said:

Me too, I might be the minority too, but I find the ending satisfying, its not perfect but it stay true to the theme.

 

From the begining it was about Vincenzo journey in finding his purposes, that he is not just a killing machine. He was always restless, there is this duality within him, he doesnt bat a eye when killing his enemy, but at somepoint his choices in life, bothers him.

 

Untill he went to Korea, meet the love of his life, the geumga residents, and the evil corporate with deep rooted corruption within society, that he realize he doesnt have to change ways to find redemption. He needs to be strong to protect the people he cared for.

 

He could punish evil in his way, because lets face it law will not always just and fair in protecting the weak and hopeless. He finally make peace with himself.

 

I do agree there are some unnecessary death that could have be saved, and I get why many fans were upset.

Great analysis of Vincenzo.  He was restless, he was lost, he was unsure who he was and who he wanted to be, he lies to CY and trying to distance himself from that life from a while. Finally, in the ending episodes when he accepts that dark side of himself and no longer hides who or what he is from CY and finally has a sense of purpose.

 

On 5/2/2021 at 6:03 PM, Slyfindor said:

Also Does anyone realize the Inzaghi Vincenzo relationship foreshadowing with respect to Vincenzo and Korea. It starts with irritation to annoyance to disgruntled compromise and finally acceptance to ultimate allies. Just like how Vincenzo and Plaza people's trajectory falls. Inzaghi's absence relates to Vincenzo's absence from Korea. Inzaghi left in ep 18 - the episode from which Vincenzo's imminent departure has been foreshadowed. Inzaghi never came back just like Vincenzo!!

Thanks so much for this analysis. I have been trying to understand Inghazhi's disappearance.  The depth of the writing!

 

On 5/2/2021 at 8:33 PM, Le_Amarant said:

That being said, you know this is a kdrama when the leads only kiss fleetingly after 1 year and we don't even get a bed scene. Major eyeroll.

LOL! I  was laughing about that.  If this was a Western drama they definitely would have definitely have made the most of their one night together after a whole year apart from the love of their life ifyouknowwhatImeanandIthinkyoualldo :bashful:

 

SJK's comments on their ending.  It's still hopeful.  They know it won't be easy to meet again but doesn't mean they won't. I believe they WILL make it work:heart:

 

One of the few lighthearted moments in Episode 20 was thanks to SJK who called up Kim Sun Cheol for a final Min Seong cameo pining after his ~Tae Ho~  Thank you, SJK we needed the laugh!:lol:

 

  • Like 4
  • Love 2
  • Insightful 1
  • Blob 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, meix2 said:

It is precisely his morailty that makes him more frightening as he commits such vicious acts. Even so- I am still totally rallying for him! Go Vincenzo! Rid the work of scum that justice can't touch! 


I’m having a hard time accepting this. I feel cheated because I was rooting for someone I thought differently of. Isn’t Vincenzo just as trashy as those scums then? Isn’t he someone who needs to be rid of as well? Who decides what is justice and what is not? Is he above the law to be able to commit crimes and murders without consequences? His way of dealing with justice is an eye for and eye and unfortunately, I don’t agree. 
 

1 hour ago, Le_Amarant said:

I see what you're saying. I think it's just that for 16 episodes, the show was glamourising him being a mafia and making light of it (all those Corn Salad references), and then for the show to get serious about the mafia piece in the last few episodes (especially last episode) really threw me for a loop.

 

I'm actually having difficulty going back and watching earlier episodes because they seem almost divorced from the final episode.

 

I don’t have a problem with the show showing the true nature of mafias IF they never glamorized Vincenzo. This is where I am most astounded. I can root for someone who started off on the wrong foot and is willing to change but not for someone whose true nature is that of a mafia. Who decides how anyone should be punished? Isn’t that something for god to decide???
 

I am also hesitant on why hcy should be in love with this mafia leader and have to sacrifice her freedom of a peaceful future with a normal life just to be with him. Vincenzo’s choice to continue his ways comes off as selfish. He didn’t absolutely have to go back to being part of the mafia but it was the path he chose to walk anyway. I’m puzzled. Why? If the writer wanted Vincenzo to stay true to his mafia ways then why develop a love story between him and hcy? This romanticizes the idea of a mafia leader and it doesn’t sit well with me. It’s disturbing that people would root for them and see their relationship as goals. She deserves better. When it all comes down to it, “good” criminals and bad criminals are still criminals. 

Edited by Noname
  • Like 1
  • Insightful 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Noname said:


I’m having a hard time accepting this. I feel cheated because I was rooting for someone I thought differently of. Isn’t Vincenzo just as trashy as those scums then? Isn’t he someone who needs to be rid of as well? Who decides what is justice and what is not? Is he above the law to be able to commit crimes and murders without consequences? His way of dealing with justice is an eye for and eye and unfortunately, I don’t agree. 

 

This is exactly the type of response that frustrates me to no end.

 

No he isn't as trashy. Did you see what the Babel 4 were doing? They were killing masses of innocent people for profit. (PBJ must pay attention to international news because Babel Pharmaceuticals = Sackler family and the opioid crisis they wrought on America).

 

What is the law? Where is the law? The law doesn't exist. Throughout the show, you get examples of all facets of the law: the police, the judiciary, lawyers, FAILING to function. There. Is. No. Law. The apple is rotten from inside out. This is why in real life certain groups of people think the courts are a joke with the kind of sentencing they dole out. The Sackler family escaped unscathed with their billions to Florida while hundreds of thousands of people have died from their drugs.

 

If Vincenzo is a criminal, then all those policemen, prosecutors, lawyers, and judges are bigger criminals. Hypocrites atop being criminals.

 

I feel like you hear "mafia" and then jump to conclusions that mafia = bad. This drama tells us that we live in a VERY murky gray world, where you need to go outside the normal avenues for vigilante justice because the system has been thoroughly corrupted. As real world events tell us every day, justice isn't being delivered (hellooo, #defundthepolice). If the system actually functioned healthily, then you wouldn't have or need people like Vincenzo around.

 

Batman is the same vigilante justice anti-hero and I don't see people raising a stink about how he is evil or needs to go to jail. Again, I wonder if there is a cultural issue at play here. Maybe Westerners LOVE their morally gray anti-heroes more.

  • Like 4
  • Love 3
  • Insightful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Le_Amarant said:

I feel like you hear "mafia" and then jump to conclusions that mafia = bad. This drama tells us that we live in a VERY murky gray world, where you need to go outside the normal avenues for vigilante justice because the system has been thoroughly corrupted. As real world events tell us every day, justice isn't being delivered (hellooo, #defundthepolice). If the system actually functioned healthily, then you wouldn't have or need people like Vincenzo around.


This is exactly the type of response that frustrates me to no end. 
 

People like you now believe that the world must have mafias to be able to function properly. #glamorizingromanticizingmafias

 

What you are saying is beyond the story. A person like Vincenzo is great within this story but he isn’t a good person.
 

Mafias are definitely bad. Can you name one mafia that isn’t? What bothers me is that because of this drama, you believe mafias are good. Do you have any idea what they are capable of doing? 
 

I would understand you more if you believe for the sake of entertainment, who he is is ok. It’s entertaining to watch and makes for good show but it is not ok to believe mafias are great in real life. Batman is a hero in comics and so he stays in the comic. No one ever said anything written for the sake of entertainment is a crime. People should not take these characters too seriously though. Just because Vincenzo was portrayed by sjk and he was painted as good next to Babel, does not mean he is good. That is where l am conflicted. The show is good for entertainment but the character himself is not a good person. That is ok until people start having the idea that mafias are good people, which is far from the truth. 
 

Someone said this earlier, we have forgotten that he was a mafia member for most of his life and most likely have committed crimes against innocent people. Don’t think for a second that just because we saw the good side of him, he doesn’t have an evil side. He himself admits he is trash. 

Edited by Noname
  • Like 2
  • Insightful 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Noname said:

Mafias are definitely bad. Can you name one mafia that isn’t? What bothers me is that because of this drama, you believe mafias are good. Do you have any idea what they are capable of doing? 

 

Plenty of examples. Look at what the Italian mafia and Brazilian gangs are doing for COVID efforts, especially the latter in a country run by a sociopath. In certain very corrupt countries, the small folk don't actually have as negative view of mafias / triads / gangs because the "legitimate" government is itself way worse.

 

I do not believe the world needs mafia specifically to function, but I do believe (as does VC's writer apparently), that many institutions have been corrupted (the police, the courts), and I'm all for seeking out alternative methods to get justice and retribution when "legal institutions" fail to do their duty.

  • Like 6
  • Insightful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Le_Amarant said:

What is the law? Where is the law? The law doesn't exist. Throughout the show, you get examples of all facets of the law: the police, the judiciary, lawyers, FAILING to function. There. Is. No. Law. The apple is rotten from inside out. This is why in real life certain groups of people think the courts are a joke with the kind of sentencing they dole out. The Sackler family escaped unscathed with their billions to Florida while hundreds of thousands of people have died from their drugs.

 

If Vincenzo is a criminal, then all those policemen, prosecutors, lawyers, and judges are bigger criminals. Hypocrites atop being criminals.

 

I hear you! I also don't think he's the same as Han Seung Hyeok, Choi Myung Hee, and Jang Han Seok, like, at all. Choi Myung Hee and Jang Han Seok were evil to the bone—I absolutely don't see Vincenzo "evil" in the same sense at all, either. I just find it difficult to think of him as wholly good, but in the context of the drama, I don't think that this is a bad thing? Without Vincenzo, justice would have never been served. The "true" evils, CMH and JHSeok would have never been defeated, and more innocent people would have been hurt or killed. They had to be ended, and the only one who was capable of destroying them was someone not as clean as Hong Cha Young's father, Hong Yu Chan, but someone like Vincenzo. Again, this is why I can't see him as entirely "clean," but I also understand how someone like Hong Yu Chan would have never been able to find justice for the Babel victims since the system itself is corrupt. But I'm pretty sure I'm with you because I really don't see Vincenzo as a pure villain! 

 

Of course those policemen, prosecutors, lawyers, and judges were the bigger criminals. Just thinking about all the corrupt things they did in the drama (and in real life) sickens me. I completely see why Vincenzo is so important/necessary, and I understand why he exists, as Cha Young does. The bigger criminals/evils will never be punished through law/conventional means, because the law doesn't exist or function to punish them. And I feel like this is why Cha Young loves him despite knowing how ruthless he can be. Again, he's no Choi Myung Hee/Jang Han Seok, and she knows this. She knows he cares for people and cares more for justice than he'll probably admit. 

 

I think the biggest takeaway from this discussion is that morality is a spectrum! 

 

@Noname I just feel like Vincenzo and Cha Young are both really independent people with different desires, and I don't see a burning need for them to settle down now or anything. I don't think Vincenzo has entirely returned to his old ways; there's no way his experience in Korea hasn't changed him at all. I don't think the finale was nearly long/comprehensive enough to show Vincenzo exercising the wisdom he gained in Korea. As for whether or not Cha Young deserves him.. I just think it's interesting how Cha Young has been cleansed of her misdeeds just because they pale in comparison with the violent things Vincenzo has done. When we first met Cha Young, she was willing to do away with her morals to win a court case. Her father was extremely frustrated with her because she had no interest in fighting for the Babel victims. She came around after her father was murdered, but it doesn't erase the fact that she was complicit at one point. And was she not pretty complicit in Vincenzo's activities as well? She never bloodied her own hands, but she was there behind the scenes. She may not have fully agreed to everything Vincenzo did, but she was still there, again because she knew the law would have never been able to stop people like Choi Myung Hee, Jang Han Seok, Prosecutor Jung, etc. and hold them accountable for their crimes. 

  • Like 10
  • Love 4
  • Insightful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

source https://www.soompi.com/article/1467231wpp/kwak-dong-yeon-shares-why-he-thinks-of-vincenzo-as-a-turning-point-for-his-acting-career

 

 

 

spacer.png

Kwak Dong Yeon Shares Why He Thinks Of “Vincenzo” As A Turning Point For His Acting Career

Kwak Dong Yeon recently participated in an online interview with Sports Chosun about the end of his tvN drama “Vincenzo.”

Spoilers

“Vincenzo” starred Song Joong Ki as Vincenzo Cassano, an Italian lawyer and Mafia consigliere who was born in Korea but was adopted by an Italian family at a young age. He returns to Korea after a conflict within his organization and crosses paths with the sharp-tongued lawyer Hong Cha Young (Jeon Yeo Bin). The two lawyers use villainous methods to bring down other villains who cannot be punished by the law.

 

In the drama, Kwak Dong Yeon plays Jang Han Seo, the false leader of Babel Group. Although he appears hardened to evil, he is actually under the thumb of his psychopath brother, Jang Joon Woo (2PM’s Taecyeon).

 

In the interview, Kwak Dong Yeon said, “I think that I’ve grown a lot while playing Jang Han Seo. It’s not that I matured on my own, but I was able to grow while watching and working with amazing seniors that I respect. I am grateful to director Kim Hee Won to the point that I can say that my acting career is divided between before and after I met him. He gave me advice about what parts of the character I should focus on, the attitude I should have as an actor, how I should approach the script, everything from A to Z.”

 

Kwak Dong Yeon, who broadened his acting spectrum with his role in “Vincenzo,” garnered a lot of praise for his performance in the drama. “A lot of people sent me their praise and compliments, so I was happy,” he said. “Han Seo is someone who shows a lot of different sides of him in the drama. I think that the keyword to his character is ‘survival.’ He’s alive, but so under his brother’s thumb that he has no independent consciousness. He was like a zombie. He saw Vincenzo and started to hope that he could live a life under his own control.”

 

The actor also talked about the physical abuse that his character suffers in the drama. “I got hit a lot,” he reminisced. “I got hit the most here out of all the projects I’ve ever done. Joon Woo is always slapping me, hitting me on the head, hitting me with a hockey stick, kicking me, even strangling me. I actually felt my self-esteem draining away while filming those scenes. Constantly suffering that kind of treatment is humiliating, and after several scenes like that, I felt a real sense of depression. The scenes were created to show how much Han Seo was suffering from humiliation and despair.”

About working with Song Joong Ki, he said, “He’s someone who embodies Vincenzo Cassano to the core. Just as Vincenzo merges with the Geumga Plaza people, Song Joong Ki always merged well with the cast and crew. I once said how hard the tough filming schedule must be on him, but he replied that he loves being on set and wasn’t tired at all. I felt that he was a true professional.”

 

Although there are hopes among fans for a second season, Kwak Dong Yeon’s character is no longer alive in the drama. He said, “I think a second season would be a dream come true. I hope that it really happens. All the other actors want it to happen as well. There are still a lot of Babel wannabes in Korea, so it’d be fun if Vincenzo could break them all open in the second season. I’m finished, but there’s always a way. Maybe I could be a grown-up Young Ho (Kang Chae Min) or a ghost who follows Vincenzo around all the time. Anyway, I’m satisfied with the current result. Han Seo managed to become a person he could be proud of before he departed the world.”

 

Kwak Dong Yeon was known to be an idol trainee before he turned his path toward acting. “I had wanted to hide that part of me up until now,” he reflected. “I didn’t want to look like someone who started out in a different field and somehow ended up here. But now that I think back on that time, I think there was a lot I gained from it. I gained a sense of persistence, of realizing that I could do something if I really worked hard at it.”

 

Awww...He like to appear in season 2 once it is greenlight as a ghost.  Poor him really felt the depression in his character and how he admire SJK. :smooches3:

  • Like 8
  • Love 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Le_Amarant said:

I do not believe the world needs mafia specifically to function, but I do believe (as does VC's writer apparently), that many institutions have been corrupted (the police, the courts), and I'm all for seeking out alternative methods to get justice and retribution when "legal institutions" fail to do their duty.


I can agree with you on this. There’s a certain level of corruption that exists in the justice system and it’s hard to rid of it. It’s frustrating.

 

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear previously. I am for Vincenzo punishing the evil. I’m even on the side that didn’t mind the way he went about it. Serves them right!!! For the sake of the drama... I loved it.
 

Beyond the drama, I’m questioning whether being the lesser of the evil justifies killing. The people at Babel were able to get away with murder and Vincenzo decided to kill them because the justice system won’t do it. If Vincenzo gets away with murder, isn’t it hypocritical? With or without reason, they are all murderers at the end of the day.  The root of the problem continues if he is able to get away with murder. We know what Babel did was evil so we justify Vincenzo’s actions, but can you see how this way of dealing with problems can get messy quickly? What if everyone decides they have a reason to kill someone? Who justifies whether the reason is good enough? An eye for an eye will make the world go blind. 

  • Like 5
  • Insightful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Noname said:

I’m having a hard time accepting this. I feel cheated because I was rooting for someone I thought differently of. Isn’t Vincenzo just as trashy as those scums then? Isn’t he someone who needs to be rid of as well? Who decides what is justice and what is not? Is he above the law to be able to commit crimes and murders without consequences? His way of dealing with justice is an eye for and eye and unfortunately, I don’t agree. 

 

Yes.. whether he is a scum, a villain is very open for debate, thats what I like about this drama, it questions our morality and values. As a bystander, seeing what his done murdering people left and right, I would say he is a villain, but if my family member was murdered by big conglomerate/powerful person, and no matter how I try the police and law wont take myside, and they instead threat me and my family, and someone like Vincenzo exist, would I feel glad? Honestly yes. Hell, I'll be rooting for him.

 

SJK himself said Vincenzo is a Villain, he shouldnt be in the society, and its sad that people find Vincenzo character refreshing in a society where the "right" way which is judgment by law is not always just nor fair, and favor powerful ones.

 

At the end of the day, for me personaly, he is a muderer and a criminal, but the people he murder would hurt or killed more and more innocent people if they are let to roam the society, that in mind he is the lesser evil. For me, He is neither right or wrong, black or white. He is grey. 

 

To some he is devil incarnate, a villain, to some he is a dark hero, a saviour.

  • Like 6
  • Insightful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bee_wannabe said:

That's one of the loophole. And that brings me back to my unresolved question about his nightmare. Just like you i also got the same impression that he unwillingly joins the mafia life and regrets what he's done. But after trying to see the drama from PJB point of view and connecting it to HYC's last request for him to be the monster, as well as his conversation with the monk about his anger, i get the feeling that his mom's death and that last nightmare is the turning point.

 

All of this time before the last nightmare happens he only helps CY for his own benefit. Avenging his friend/mentor, getting back his building to save his gold, helping CY whom he cares for. It is never about other people. He's never that noble. This aligned to his way of sharing the gold. He shares it only to those who is directly involved.

 

His intention starts to shift after her mother's death. I think here's when the nightmare plays an important part. He sees the child who has just lost his parents because of him. Then he sees his mom hugging him and calling him. I think it gives him understanding that he and his mom is a victim of the corrupt system. Topic of capitalism is brought up several times in the drama. And seeing the bigger picture, his mom and the geumga people are all the victims of capitalism. They are forced to choose harsh life to survive the jungle. His old self, a mafia who backs up other form of capitalism/businessman, creates another Joo Young who needs to survive at young age. It's a cycle that needs to stop.

 

At that time his priority is revenge. His anger of her mother's death can only be relieved by paying back the criminals nth times of what they did. He knows it's not right, so in the end he consults it once more to the head monk. That in the end he goes back to his old way to relieve his anger and he'll feel regret and anguish for the rest of his life. The monk reassures him that Buddha will still compliment him if he brings down the evil just like how Vaisravana keeps yakshas and rakshasas in check. I think this is when his intention truly changes to taking the mafia way to tame the villains. And I also think that this gives him the hope that he deserves small portion of luxury called attachment to this world/love/affection and that pushes him to make effort in the relationship with CY.

 

He said the island serves several purpose. A hideout, a refuge for the loved ones and place of healing. So the way i see it is that he's building the good mafia organization consisting of people similar to him who are unwillingly put in difficult grey field due to the capitalism and providing safe place called Jipuragi island for those involved.

This post is so, so so brilliant and insightful.  I hadn't even thought about the meaning of the images in the nightmare and the addition of his mother and stopping the cycle of capitalism that oppresses the weak.  Or that his conversation with the monk and identifying himself with Vaisravana allows him to see a greater purpose and also believe that he is worthy of some love/affection.

 

The finale is certainly controversial and brave.  I do really love that this drama made us think and has led to so many interesting conversations here. The morality debate conversation between @Noname @Le_Amarant @peachfuzz is super interesting to read and I think you have all made very valid points.  

 

2 hours ago, suzy0604 said:

SJK himself said Vincenzo is a Villain, he shouldnt be in the society, and its sad that people find Vincenzo character refreshing in a society where the "right" way which is judgment by law is not always just nor fair, and favor powerful ones.

Is this the Song Joong Ki quote you are referring to? “I thought Vincenzo was more heinous than the four villains combined. I just think I got more support from people. In fact, he is a person who should not be supported."

I have to admit i was surprised when I saw SJK said this but I can somewhat understand his thoughts in that it is awful someone like Vincenzo is needed at all because the so-called justice system is so corrupt and unjust.
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, mystic62 said:

Kwak Dong Yeon Shares Why He Thinks Of “Vincenzo” As A Turning Point For His Acting Career

Thank you:)  Great interview and so happy for him that he is receiving so much praise.  LOL at him thinking of ways to join Season 2 if it were to happen:lol:

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Noname said:


I can agree with you on this. There’s a certain level of corruption that exists in the justice system and it’s hard to rid of it. It’s frustrating.

 

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear previously. I am for Vincenzo punishing the evil. I’m even on the side that didn’t mind the way he went about it. Serves them right!!! For the sake of the drama... I loved it.
 

Beyond the drama, I’m questioning whether being the lesser of the evil justifies killing. The people at Babel were able to get away with murder and Vincenzo decided to kill them because the justice system won’t do it. If Vincenzo gets away with murder, isn’t it hypocritical? With or without reason, they are all murderers at the end of the day.  The root of the problem continues if he is able to get away with murder. We know what Babel did was evil so we justify Vincenzo’s actions, but can you see how this way of dealing with problems can get messy quickly? What if everyone decides they have a reason to kill someone? Who justifies whether the reason is good enough? An eye for an eye will make the world go blind. 

There thousands ways to die and those hideous rotten Babel people got exactly what they deserved after what they did to those innocent for their selfish greed. Not to mention, they crossed the lines too many times that they lost into their own delusions. 

 

 The sad truth is that it portrayed the reality of the strict dictation and power corruption in the Korean system just like in Fiery Priest where the Rising Sun scandal was added to the plot.  Right now there rises of anti-bullying and intimidation movements and k celebrities are now allowed to fight back against the toxic netizens which was forbidden until 2018.

 

  • Like 1
  • Insightful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue..