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34 minutes ago, Raffles said:

I am not... satisfied by the ending, but I am not crushed like some of you. I do feel your pain, though! I invested half a decade in Game of Thrones, only to watch the writers flush it down the drain. It hurts, and leads to understandable rage quitting. :dissapointed_relieved:

Ooph I can feel the frustration with Game of Thrones. This is why I will always watch kdramas. 16 hours of my life. And then I move on. 

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Guide of : how the royal child was made         

The Tale Of The King’s Failed Mission   Our king had a very important mission, he even sent his brother away in order to succeed in his task.   5 minutes later.  

Watching it with subs made the final episode even worse.   I’m so tired of people saying So Bong was only influenced by So Yong’s emotions and feelings. You people had your happy generic het

Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind So Yong/Cheoljong endgame if they showed us the progress of their relationship.

 

How much easier it’d be for viewers to root for So Yong/Cheoljong if they made Shin Hye Sun switch roles. So Yong taking control when there are romantic scenes and Bong Hwan and Cheoljong scenes would be purely platonic.


But no, they didn’t show it a single time So Yong was there. It was always Bong Hwan who reacted. Bong Hwan was the one who made Cheoljong who he is now, So Yong wouldn’t be able to do that, all she could do was throw herself in the lake.

 

And they made it clear again and again that Cheoljong was intrigued by Bong Hwan’s personality. All the traits he said he loved about her were Bong Hwan’s. 
 

So for me it’s mainly the writers’ failure not to be able to make me connect to So Yong. I didn’t care about her after she came back, all I felt was fury because she didn’t even acknowledge everything Bong Hwan made for her, Cheoljong and the country. In the end all I cared about was Bong Hwan because he’s the one who made all those things happen abs he’s the one whose journey I watched. 
 

He’s the one Cheoljong fell in love with and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. What he felt for real Kim So Yong was a fleeting infatuation at the sight of a beautiful lady. But Cheoljong came to love So Bong deeply because he came to know all her highs and lows.

 

People who think Cheoljong loved So Yong and not So Bong, please show me the examples in the show where it was stated or implied. I beg you to prove me wrong, so I can let go of So Bong and Cheoljong.

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29 minutes ago, aisling said:

Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind So Yong/Cheoljong endgame if they showed us the progress of their relationship.

 

How much easier it’d be for viewers to root for So Yong/Cheoljong if they made Shin Hye Sun switch roles. So Yong taking control when there are romantic scenes and Bong Hwan and Cheoljong scenes would be purely platonic.


But no, they didn’t show it a single time So Yong was there. It was always Bong Hwan who reacted. Bong Hwan was the one who made Cheoljong who he is now, So Yong wouldn’t be able to do that, all she could do was throw herself in the lake.

 

And they made it clear again and again that Cheoljong was intrigued by Bong Hwan’s personality. All the traits he said he loved about her were Bong Hwan’s. 
 

So for me it’s mainly the writers’ failure not to be able to make me connect to So Yong. I didn’t care about her after she came back, all I felt was fury because she didn’t even acknowledge everything Bong Hwan made for her, Cheoljong and the country. In the end all I cared about was Bong Hwan because he’s the one who made all those things happen abs he’s the one whose journey I watched. 
 

He’s the one Cheoljong fell in love with and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. What he felt for real Kim So Yong was a fleeting infatuation at the sight of a beautiful lady. But Cheoljong came to love So Bong deeply because he came to know all her highs and lows.

 

People who think Cheoljong loved So Yong and not So Bong, please show me the examples in the show where it was stated or implied. I beg you to prove me wrong, so I can let go of So Bong and Cheoljong.

 I beg to differ and repost my explanation here.

 

I understand... for me perhaps - it's easier to accept this kind of ending bcuz I know more about their culture and I'm familiar with their mentality; that's why - from the very start I couldn't see them SY / BH/ CJ as a possible love tringle or BH falling in love with CJ; the funny part which worked for me was that the guy's spirit was trapped in her body - but could feel all her emotions -/ in the beginning she was so numb that wouldn't resurfaces, but she was there/  -> remember the scene that we commented when the King decided to go after the Queen to kill her - he still had feelings for her - [ the spin offs were elaborated considering the main events of the drama], then after ep 5 - when SB decides to jump into the river [ here again BH is such a selfish bashfhfshf he doesn't care what happens with SY [ she may die drowned, all he wants is to go back; like he didn't care when he unveiled that she tried to kill herself - that alone being such a great dishonor for her - leaving her on shaky ground - with QD and the court thinking or trying to depose her]. BH was driven by SY's feelings - that's why he decides to help CJ - that heart beating too fast when seeing CJ's chest - wasn't his, nope - not his flesh and blood, the beating heart was SY's. She was with him during the first night together, so her heart reacts, her body reacts, it's normal. I like tomboyish SB, but BH belongs to his time, so everything returns to its right place. 

 

ep 20 - when SB kisses CJ he asks - What is this? 

              SB answers: 몰라, 나도 [ me too]  - Which means - I don't know/ I don't have clue why I did that - 나도 - me too - SB is equally surprised; so my point is that SY resurfaces with out any warning and she is convinced now more then never that the King loves her back and wants to be with him during  tough times. After the 1st night the King realizes that he can't deny his feelings for the Queen - that's why he answers to SB - 'no, he didn't fall in love just after one night together'.  

        When seeing that guy with the rifle - SY reacts immediately protecting the CJ - she controls her body, SB doesn't realize what happened - she says' I'm ok, I was startled by the noise'... 

       Anyway I told you before - I have watched this drama so many times - and there are many misinterpreted scenes due to poor quality adaptation when translation was made, so please don't get me wrong, I've tried to state what I understood and knew better.

But you won't get accurate translation, that is hard to come by. 

 

      And please consider that after BH leaves, the Queen is not surprise to see the King talking to her - she wasn't asleep or didn't know the course of events - that alone proves she was in her body and all that happened was because she wanted so. She felt protected by BH, and let him be, but her love for the King was way too strong. 

 

This is to explain more about SY's decision - 

Old-time Koreans believed that becoming an object of rumors was a crime punishable by death. By choosing death, the family was able to prove that the rumor was false and at the same time to restore the family's good standing. Thus, death has been a primary means of communication for Koreans to prove themselves innocent when they are falsely judged and accused [ her conversation with the King before jumping into the lake).

 

Above all, a Korean would smile over a tragedy, a humiliation, an insult, or an injustice while he weeps inside for sorrow, shame, guilt, and remorse. Thus, within a Korean, two conflicting entities of human nature and emotion co-exist compatibly, simultaneously, and transcendentally: shame and guilt intermingled, sadness and smile coexisting, attachment and detachment interwoven, and self-control and social-control intertwined.

 

Westerners are likely to make naive judgments about Koreans' verbal and nonverbal language behavior which is really founded upon Korean's self-effacing nature in human relationships.  A Westerner's interpretation and comprehension of a Korean's language behavior solely in terms of the ostensible verbal and non-verbal evidence would be too risky to account for cultural discrepancies. Cultural discrepancies which are socio-culturally specific are the products of cognitive structures as well as the idiosyncrasies of particular socio-cultural resources shared and valued among ingroups of many generations. The socio-cultural discrepancies are often labelled as eccentricities from the outgroup's standpoint

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The reason most of us are not satisfied by the ending is because we were invested in SB and not SY. We loved everything about SB/BH. It was like the writers just deserted BH. BH was all alone in the current world in the end. Ofcourse, he wasn't going to jail but that just doesn't cut it. We saw the whole story through his eyes, we fell for his character. We cheered for his love. In the end, he lost his love and his friends.

 

A writer has the freedom to tell her story. I always respect that.

If we were more invested in SY, we would have been able to appreciate this ending more. Since we all saw the story from SB's eyes, we weren't able to just chuck him to the side.

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13 minutes ago, Sunset90 said:

The reason most of us are not satisfied by the ending is because we were invested in SB and not SY. We loved everything about SB/BH. It was like the writers just deserted BH. BH was all alone in the current world in the end. Ofcourse, he wasn't going to jail but that just doesn't cut it. We saw the whole story through his eyes, we fell for his character. We cheered for his love. In the end, he lost his love and his friends.

 

A writer has the freedom to tell her story. I always respect that.

If we were more invested in SY, we would have been able to appreciate this ending more. Since we all saw the story from SB's eyes, we weren't able to just chuck him to the side.

 

Was he in love with someone?

 

 

the coolest guy 

 

Image

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So someone explain to me like I’m a slow 5 year old.

 

If So Yong was always there it means she witnessed everything what Bong Hwan did in her body. Doesn’t she know then that the person Cheoljong loved was Bong Hwan and not her? I don’t mean just their romantic scenes but all those scenes where So Bong and Cheoljong talked and discussed. All those moments when they bonded over conversations. 
 

I’m probably stupid but I just don’t get it.

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9 minutes ago, kara_mella said:

 I beg to differ and repost my explanation here.

 

I understand... for me perhaps - it's easier to accept this kind of ending bcuz I know more about their culture and I'm familiar with their mentality; that's why - from the very start I couldn't see them SY / BH/ CJ as a possible love tringle or BH falling in love with CJ; the funny part which worked for me was that the guy's spirit was trapped in her body - but could feel all her emotions -/ in the beginning she was so numb that wouldn't resurfaces, but she was there/  -> remember the scene that we commented when the King decided to go after the Queen to kill her - he still had feelings for her - [ the spin offs were elaborated considering the main events of the drama], then after ep 5 - when SB decides to jump into the river [ here again BH is such a selfish bashfhfshf he doesn't care what happens with SY [ she may die drowned, all he wants is to go back; like he didn't care when he unveiled that she tried to kill herself - that alone being such a great dishonor for her - leaving her on shaky ground - with QD and the court thinking or trying to depose her]. BH was driven by SY's feelings - that's why he decides to help CJ - that heart beating too fast when seeing CJ's chest - wasn't his, nope - not his flesh and blood, the beating heart was SY's. She was with him during the first night together, so her heart reacts, her body reacts, it's normal. I like tomboyish SB, but BH belongs to his time, so everything returns to its right place. 

 

ep 20 - when SB kisses CJ he asks - What is this? 

              SB answers: 몰라, 나도 [ me too]  - Which means - I don't know/ I don't have clue why I did that - 나도 - me too - SB is equally surprised; so my point is that SY resurfaces with out any warning and she is convinced now more then never that the King loves her back and wants to be with him during  tough times. After the 1st night the King realizes that he can't deny his feelings for the Queen - that's why he answers to SB - 'no, he didn't fall in love just after one night together'.  

        When seeing that guy with the rifle - SY reacts immediately protecting the CJ - she controls her body, SB doesn't realize what happened - she says' I'm ok, I was startled by the noise'... 

       Anyway I told you before - I have watched this drama so many times - and there are many misinterpreted scenes due to poor quality adaptation when translation was made, so please don't get me wrong, I've tried to state what I understood and knew better.

But you won't get accurate translation, that is hard to come by. 

 

This is to explain more about SY's decision - 

Old-time Koreans believed that becoming an object of rumors was a crime punishable by death. By choosing death, the family was able to prove that the rumor was false and at the same time to restore the family's good standing. Thus, death has been a primary means of communication for Koreans to prove themselves innocent when they are falsely judged and accused [ her conversation with the King before jumping into the lake).

 

Above all, a Korean would smile over a tragedy, a humiliation, an insult, or an injustice while he weeps inside for sorrow, shame, guilt, and remorse. Thus, within a Korean, two conflicting entities of human nature and emotion co-exist compatibly, simultaneously, and transcendentally: shame and guilt intermingled, sadness and smile coexisting, attachment and detachment interwoven, and self-control and social-control intertwined.

 

Westerners are likely to make naive judgments about Koreans' verbal and nonverbal language behavior which is really founded upon Korean's self-effacing nature in human relationships.  A Westerner's interpretation and comprehension of a Korean's language behavior solely in terms of the ostensible verbal and non-verbal evidence would be too risky to account for cultural discrepancies. Cultural discrepancies which are socio-culturally specific are the products of cognitive structures as well as the idiosyncrasies of particular socio-cultural resources shared and valued among ingroups of many generations. The socio-cultural discrepancies are often labelled as eccentricities from the outgroup's standpoint

I'm sorry, but I have to rebutt here: 

 

First of all, the reaction from the korean audience that I've seen is also mixed, with people being sad (like we are) that Bong Hwan is alone now in the future and how they wanted Cheolbong! Secondly it's not like there haven't been gay characters, even main characters in kdramas before. 

 

Secondly I don't see how you can say that it was only SY's feelings regarding seeing CJ's chest, when the whole episode had been about how SB/BH was feeling about having slept with CJ and coming to the realisation that it was great. Also why would SY who is a Joseon woman come out with friggn ramyun at night? That clearly indicates to me that this is Bong Hwan doing this. Some things don't even depend on translation, they are right there on screen. And with regards to the ep 20 kiss I don't think your reading of that scene is accurate either? To me it reads more that SB is overcome, because they are walking into imminent danger. SB is not someone who is prone to PDA like that so that's why CJ asks where this came from and SB says she doesn't know. 

 

It seems like a reach to say that it's suddenly SY resurfacing when we don't have any evidence of that at all. I'm not even saying that SY's hormones and feelings haven't influenced BH, hell that's why i'm calling her SB, but the one who made all of the decisions was clearly SB and not SY. Why would SY have conflicting feelings about sleeping with CJ(a man)? She loves him, she should rejoice. And if SY really was in charge with all of the emotional beats why is BH not more disgusted with that? Where are the scenes (in the latter half of the drama) with BH clearly not into CJ. 

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@aisling :))  SY feelings became stronger and stronger - I would say after the first night together her feelings became predominant - even SB can't control that anymore - and thinks his sexual orientation is changing, but he remembers how she felt, not the other way around; he tries to deny all that bcuz he doesn't want to disappear as he says. 

 

if you check the scene of night together - it's cristal clear that SB is not there; after that there are many moments when SY pops in - when she is worried bcuz the King is tired and has a sudden nosebleed; when visiting the summer villa -when he takes her hand, the one holding it close to her face is SY - considering SB reaction; when the King visits her to her parents' house - the one watching him walking towards her is SY; etc.

 

All other moments are controlled by her consciousness, because JB does not have one, he is just in spirit presence. 

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43 minutes ago, kara_mella said:

 

Was he in love with someone?

In the beginning, he did what he needed to survive. In an earlier post you mentioned that BH was selfish to not care about what happened to SY. But I don't think so. Was he really selfish? Maybe.

But try imagining the situation if it happened to you in real life. If I imagine myself in someone else's body tomorrow after jumping in a pool, I would sure be jumping back in every other pool to get my life back. Why? Because to me, Only a dream or my death would explain the madness that is going on. My mind would be buzzing with worry only for my son, my husband, my parents and sister and not the body I am in. Self preservation comes first.

 

BH definitely cared for the king. He spent time with him. He left the palace to search for him. He struck Byoeng In in the leg to indicate that he is BH. He was definitely there. He definitely took decisions that affected what happened. He ran out of the hospital and checked the history book to figure out what happened CJ. That definitely showed love and affection to me.

 

Was it a sexual love? Was he "in love with" him? Was he the one who kissed him?  Was it him during the first night? Was it BL? That really doesn't change much for me.

 

When he went back to the present, I just felt that he was lonely but definitely happy for the king.

 

When we look it from the Male lead's perspective, CJ was attracted by SY/SB's tomboyish side mainly contributed by BH. CJ was touched by SB's meal preparation during the banquet feast to save him from humiliation. He kept a dictionary to interpret SB's words. Who did he love?

 

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26 minutes ago, aisling said:

So someone explain to me like I’m a slow 5 year old.

 

If So Yong was always there it means she witnessed everything what Bong Hwan did in her body. Doesn’t she know then that the person Cheoljong loved was Bong Hwan and not her? I don’t mean just their romantic scenes but all those scenes where So Bong and Cheoljong talked and discussed. All those moments when they bonded over conversations. 
 

I’m probably stupid but I just don’t get it.

No, you are not stupid. You are smart, it's the writing that's stupid. To be more exact, it's downright idiotic.

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I might just give up on my thesis subject and write one about Mr. Queen - 어떡하지? 

 

Guys, my personality is closer to SB's, but I like SY's character. She was there all along, and BH helped her, and I say this again - he was bound to her - she kissed him and saved him when he was on the verge of death.

 

The kiss has the power to waken or kill, and like the true spiritual experience, you can't remember what really happened till you're there again; and when you're there again, you don't really know what will happen next. A kiss can be an initiation process. It can be a mutual act of freedom, a co-creative thrust into the future right in front of you in which you are co-pilot with fate and destiny. A kiss can put your life on the line.

In the kiss; light, breath, and warmth meet. The light of awareness and the warmth of friendship mingle in spirit with the breath. This is metaphysics, to try to understand how the inner meets the outer, how processes and potentials within ourselves awaken. 

 

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I think SY was always there, gathering her strength, lending it to BH when she could, sharing her most intimate and painful memories, learning how to navigate the Court, showing her love for the king when BH retreated into himself in shock at a sudden physical expression of his affection. It was, in some ways, a far more intimate relationship than SY will ever have with her husband. I like to think he shared some of his memories as well, about future Korea, etc.

 

BUT. This wasn't shown. We can only guess. 

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37 minutes ago, Sunset90 said:

In the beginning, he did what he needed to survive. In an earlier post you mentioned that BH was selfish to not care about what happened to SY. But I don't think so. Was he really selfish? Maybe.

But try imagining the situation if it happened to you in real life. If I imagine myself in someone else's body tomorrow after jumping in a pool, I would sure be jumping back in every other pool to get my life back. Why? Because to me, Only a dream or my death would explain the madness that is going on. My mind would be buzzing with worry only for my son, my husband, my parents and sister and not the body I am in. Self preservation comes first.

 

BH definitely cared for the king. He spent time with him. He left the palace to search for him. He struck Byoeng In in the leg to indicate that he is BH. He was definitely there. He definitely took decisions that affected what happened. He ran out of the hospital and checked the history book to figure out what happened CJ. That definitely showed love and affection to me.

 

Was it a sexual love? Was he "in love with" him? Was he the one who kissed him?  Was it him during the first night? Was it BL? That really doesn't change much for me.

 

When he went back to the present, I just felt that he was lonely but definitely happy for the king.

 

When we look it from the Male lead's perspective, CJ was attracted by SY/SB's tomboyish side mainly contributed by BH. CJ was touched by SB's meal preparation during the banquet feast to save him from humiliation. He kept a dictionary to interpret SB's words. Who did he love?

 

Well, he wasn't there during their first night together; and I get your point, but I stated my own - we have different opinions - I have a different understanding of what I watched during all these eps - and I explained why. Thank you! 

6 minutes ago, Raffles said:

I think SY was always there, gathering her strength, lending it to BH when she could, sharing her most intimate and painful memories, learning how to navigate the Court, showing her love for the king when BH retreated into himself in shock at a sudden physical expression of his affection. It was, in some ways, a far more intimate relationship than SY will ever have with her husband. I like to think he shared some of his memories as well, about future Korea, etc.

 

BUT. This wasn't shown. We can only guess. 

 

When she was confident enough all her memories came pouring back for him.

53 minutes ago, Miaruma said:

I'm sorry, but I have to rebutt here: 

 

First of all, the reaction from the korean audience that I've seen is also mixed, with people being sad (like we are) that Bong Hwan is alone now in the future and how they wanted Cheolbong! Secondly it's not like there haven't been gay characters, even main characters in kdramas before. 

 

Secondly I don't see how you can say that it was only SY's feelings regarding seeing CJ's chest, when the whole episode had been about how SB/BH was feeling about having slept with CJ and coming to the realisation that it was great. Also why would SY who is a Joseon woman come out with friggn ramyun at night? That clearly indicates to me that this is Bong Hwan doing this. Some things don't even depend on translation, they are right there on screen. And with regards to the ep 20 kiss I don't think your reading of that scene is accurate either? To me it reads more that SB is overcome, because they are walking into imminent danger. SB is not someone who is prone to PDA like that so that's why CJ asks where this came from and SB says she doesn't know. 

 

It seems like a reach to say that it's suddenly SY resurfacing when we don't have any evidence of that at all. I'm not even saying that SY's hormones and feelings haven't influenced BH, hell that's why i'm calling her SB, but the one who made all of the decisions was clearly SB and not SY. Why would SY have conflicting feelings about sleeping with CJ(a man)? She loves him, she should rejoice. And if SY really was in charge with all of the emotional beats why is BH not more disgusted with that? Where are the scenes (in the latter half of the drama) with BH clearly not into CJ. 

I answer bcuz your post is addressed to me, please read my latter posts[ after your post] , thank you! 

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@kara_mella I've read your posts and I guess I'll never be able to agree with you, because every example you cite (grabbing the hand etc) are all SB, the only one I would grant you is when CJ visits SB at her home. But again, that's at the very beginning of their relationship and pretty much the only point when the drama acknowledges that SY's feelings influence SB, but I don't think anyone in this thread is denying the fact that SY's feelings have influence over SB, just that it's clear that it's not *just* SY and in fact less and less so as the drama goes along. 

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7 minutes ago, Miaruma said:

@kara_mella I've read your posts and I guess I'll never be able to agree with you, because every example you cite (grabbing the hand etc) are all SB, the only one I would grant you is when CJ visits SB at her home. But again, that's at the very beginning of their relationship and pretty much the only point when the drama acknowledges that SY's feelings influence SB, but I don't think anyone in this thread is denying the fact that SY's feelings have influence over SB, just that it's clear that it's not *just* SY and in fact less and less so as the drama goes along. 

Well, there's not denying BH got on the king train in the end. S/he was all in!

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The subs is already out very early today.

Even so, I'm not excited to watch it now.

Maybe later, for the sake of KJH and SHS, after I change my mindset of BH/SY/SB, after I really find the closure for myself at least.

Despite of unsatisfying ending, let's just remember again how great the actors working for this drama, how great SHS and KJH interpreted and portrayed the character. 

Mr. Queen is the 7th highest rating cable drama!

We surely hope the best for KJH and SHS.

They are truly amazing actor and actress.

 

aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210214T233137Z

 

Mr. Queen is right below Mr. Sunshine.....

That reminds me that I did not watch the last 2 episode of Mr. Sunshine after I read the spoiler of the drama. It was also not satisfying for me..

But I will watch the subbed version of Mr. Queen's last ep later, when I'm ready...

 

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I didn't ask you to agree with me ... You quoted me, I answered. it's simple like that. Thank you!

19 minutes ago, Miaruma said:

@kara_mella I've read your posts and I guess I'll never be able to agree with you, because every example you cite (grabbing the hand etc) are all SB, the only one I would grant you is when CJ visits SB at her home. But again, that's at the very beginning of their relationship and pretty much the only point when the drama acknowledges that SY's feelings influence SB, but I don't think anyone in this thread is denying the fact that SY's feelings have influence over SB, just that it's clear that it's not *just* SY and in fact less and less so as the drama goes along. 

 

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