[Drama 2020/2021] Queen Cheorin/Mr. Queen, 철인왕후

[cdcotr]

Just some of my thoughts on the series as whole.

Like @kwayteow_mama said, lots of folks gravitated to this series bec of the story's complexity.  I’m one of them.  I very rarely watch korean historical dramas but I was curious how they were going to tackle such an interesting predicament: imagine a modern playboy travels through time, ends up stuck in a woman's body who just happened to be chosen to be queen in restrictive conservative Joseon.

I anticipated how they were going to tackle the ff:

· The mechanics of time travel

· The fish out of water aspect with modern man in the past

· Are they going to change history? Or will it be that whatever you do won't change anything bec of it's destiny

· How a man stuck in a woman's body will cope

· The court politics that are often deadly

 

And all this while telling a romance story between the king and queen.

 

How daring were they going to be? Is it going to be light and fun, or will it be a bit dark, how much politics, how much romance, how much will be melodramatic?  The possibilities were interesting to think about.

 

What the show did right: 

      They chose the cast well.

      The costumes were beautiful.

      The locations and settings were great.

      The acting was stellar.

      The comedy parts were spot on.

      The action sequences were pretty good.

      The music/OST.

 

The not so good stuff:

      1. I feel like the show tried to be too many things all at the same time.

      2. The pacing was off, felt like they ran out of time.

      3. The changes they made to GPG made it too complicated.

      4. They were trying to be too clever for their own good. 

      5. That half-baked, poorly executed, bad choice of an ending.

 

1.     The show excelled at the comedic parts esp with the cast's excellent comedic instincts.  But it didn't do so well with the weightier, more serious parts of the plot.  At times it felt like a story with multiple personalities that aren't able to integrate into a cohesive whole person.

      Serious themes were introduced and at times graphically shown but they don't give it the weight it needs, as if it's made light of. If they wanted to keep it light, fun and airy, then perhaps don't go there. It's tough to stay in the light and fun the whole way when you're shown people tortured, murdered, cruelty left and right, assassination schemes, a little girl forced to drink poison. It needed equal weight given to this part of the plot to balance it out and make the story more complete.  I don't mean, run time bec they sure spent a lot of time with the political scheming, but more like it needed more thought and effort, as much as they obviously put into the comedic parts that they nailed. I'm not sure if I made sense.

 

2.     I started feeling a bit concerned after the halfway mark bec, although hilariously funny, BH's character still showed little to no sign of growth. Not much progress on CJ's quest for political power. We still didn't know anything abt the mechanics abt the soul switch.  Can BH go back?  Is it permanent? Still no hint abt the connection, if any, between SY and BH. And still no sign at all of SY's consciousness.

      I began to wonder how they were going to wrap things up and if they will do a good job of tackling all the plot lines and make it coherent, plausible, justified and still a happy ending. Time was running out. Maybe they were having too much fun with the entertaining story between the king and queen with their explosive chemistry, plus all the hilarious shenanigans of the cast, that they forgot to advance the plot?

Or maybe they never meant to address some of these questions at all.

 

3.     IIRC, in GPG, the original queen died and gone so there was no question whose soul was in that body. It's clear who the lead is from the start.  I don't quite recall if there was a threat of him going back to his time suddenly bec he tried and could not. There were alternate endings but he went back only after his story arc is completed in the past.

     In Mr. Queen, they chose to complicate things by never definitively clarifying what happened to both souls until the very last few minutes and even then, they never really explained things at all. We are left guessing and assuming. 

Bec of this added complication, there apparently was another choice that most weren't even aware was still on the table.   They split the loyalty of viewers. One wasn't sure who to even root for.

     They also had the threat of going back kinda there in the background but then they lulled you into a false sense of security when BH's efforts failed, only to boot him back right before the climax of the story.

     They already had a lot of things to resolve but the changes they added to the original story complicated things even more, added conflicts to resolve, and muddied the waters as to who really is the protagonist. 

     It would have been ok if they were actually able to resolve all these additional complications adequately and with enough explanation by the end.

 

4.     Maybe they were trying to be clever.  Like those shows that have that "got ya!" ending that aims to lead the viewers to believe one thing but it is actually totally different and all is revealed in the end.

We've seen those stories were they show flashbacks at the end to reveal how things really happened given a different perspective.

      This is the only thing I can come up with as a possible reason why they executed the ending like they did. They wanted to, and did surprise everyone with how SY showed up at the end out of nowhere. 

      They were too clever for their own good bec it falls flat since they didn't lay enough groundwork.  There was no flashbacks or reveals or any kind of explanation. She was just suddenly there, BH was suddenly back in Seoul. Some have seen clues or signs but it was never explicit enough to be convincing.

     There was no denouement where all is revealed and explained so there are no doubts and all is clear.

     Instead we're left with more questions and fewer answers bec the ones we had turned out to be wrong.

 

5.     ahh yes, the ending...Actually all the preceding 4 led to #5

      I've talked about the ending before. 2 words - frustrating and disappointing. Almost disrespectful both to the characters and to the viewers.  Though I didn't like who CJ ended up with, I would have been ok with a SY-CJ end game if it was executed well enough, if the groundwork was laid throughout the series so we're not caught blindsided. 

     It wouldn't be as bad if they treated BH's character more fairly.  This doesn't necessarily mean BH ending up with CJ, but at least, don't throw him out right before the climax and right before he sees the fruit of his labors.  Or at least give his character enough respect to finish out his story arc completely. 

     Let his character show the emotions and consequences of his whole experience instead of sanitizing it to make it easier to swallow the ending you chose. 

     I might actually prefer seeing him grief-stricken rather than walking off into the sun with a smile on his face bec it would show that it all happened, that the journey we went on with him, actually happened, that it mattered and had weight enough that he felt the repercussions.

    

     I suddenly remember the ending of Splish Splash Love where they had to part but they got to say goodbye (cue tears) and showed how both were gutted by it but she returns, was recovering, then reincarnated King shows up. Sad but much better ending.

 

I'll remember this series for the laughs, the sizzling chemistry, the excellent acting and the potential. But I likely won't re-watch it.  I'm one of those that if the ending is bad, then it sours the whole series for me. I actually haven't seen the spin-offs bec I feel like they are added on as an attempt to rectify mistakes or an attempt to appease viewers who were disappointed with how it ended. Just my guesses.  Maybe I will watch them later.

 

I'm still glad I watched Mr. Queen.  I haven't watched a series as it aired in a long while and it got me back here on Soompi.  It was fun to over-analyze, over-think and obsess over all the happenings LOL! Fun to read all the posts here too.

 

 

[intronic]

I think the collaborative approach on set, where both the director and writers allowed for a lot of creativity from the actors (and I would guess also the cinematographer etc, people who we hear less about) made the show so much better, so I'm really grateful for that. 

 

It's a shame about the ending, but I feel like they included a lot of material for us bong hwan fans to imagine our own ending. I wish the world were better so we didn't have to though 

[aisling]

@cdcotr Very well written! It’s been almost two weeks since the ending and I somehow still can’t move on. Every time I think of the ending I feel my heart hurt again. As you pointed out the comedy parts were excellent, exceeding my expectations but the politicking parts were less impressive. But overall it was one of the better written k-dramas with outstanding cast. All of the actors were truly amazing and Shin Hye Sun/Kim Jung Hyun combined talents and chemistry will be hard to beat. 
 

I’m still not sure what was the writers’ intention. Maybe if we got an interview with them, we might understand them better. I also haven’t rewatched Mr Queen yet. Not sure if I’ll be able to. I’m mostly watching BTS videos because I miss the cast.

 

I’d like to understand the mechanism of how Bong Hwan/So Yong souls worked. I just don’t see So Yong when I think of all things So Bong/Cheoljong went through. All the actions So Bong took didn’t come from So Yong but Bong Hwan. So how am I supposed to accept the ending that So Yong took all the credit? Most of the viewers thought So Yong was gone when we saw her sinking in the bottom of the lake. And we haven’t seen a single time So Yong was conscious. It was like a “cell memory” for Bong Hwan. The body remembered the memories and feelings but the conscious actions were made by Bong Hwan. 
 

It’s exactly what a recapper at Dramabeans wrote:

Quote

They wanted all the hijinks of a man in the queen’s body falling in love with the king without any acknowledgment of anything remotely non-heteronormative.

 

[Raffles]

Some Like It Hot (1959) actually ended on a more daring note than Mr. Queen (2021) (of course it was a gag; no one in the audience expected the characters to follow through with it).

 

Personally, I wasn't looking to change the world with this show, just have a good time. 

[aisling]

This MV just killed me all over again...

 

“Some thing aren’t meant to happen no matter how hard you try.” 

 

 

[Bouhoub]

 

 

@aisling I'm like you, I can't move one. 

 

Just adding my POV because I'm on the opposite team :-). 

To be honest, I stopped believing in BH/CJ love line as soon as they changed the inner voice. I felt like they wanted to make BH more feminine, and I didn't like that. I was all-in for a love line between 2 alpha men (like they are). So instead of been mad at the writers, I focused on Soyong. That's why, starting from episode 7, I was able to see some hints (because I was looking for them). For me, I thought the writers wanted us to find Soyong. But, I get why the majority focused on SoBong, and I'm not saying that I'm right. Let's say that I was protecting myself because I saw the queerbaiting coming from afar. 

I used Soompi forum only for Chinese drama, if I knew I would have come sooner because I was all alone in my living room making assumptions :-). 

[Sandy Prater]

4 hours ago, aisling said:

This MV just killed me all over again...

 

 

 

 

 

Ooh, I really like that one. My current favorite is this:

 

 

In a funk. Hating the ending again - reminded of the comment Hong Yeon made about the queen's crazy fluctuating moods applied to myself as I go from calm acceptance to cursing whoever approved it. Listening to How can I love the heartbreak, You're the one I love by AKMU on repeat...*sigh* The lyrics fit so well.

 

Wanted to share my thoughts on their (cruel, cruel, Vulcan-like-logic-but-still-cruel) rationale.

 

Been thinking about the ending a lot and why they made the decision to send BH back  I believe they did it because it wouldn’t make sense for him to live a life he essentially already lived as SY. Reincarnation is meant to be a means for a soul to grow and spiritually evolve, which it could not do by simply repeating what it had already done. Also, for some reason (I suspect so as not to offend Koreans by skipping over one of the most beloved and prominent historical figures in their culture - Queen Min), they still have CJ dying at age 32. This can be seen in the book BH is looking at when he’s seeing his portrait, and he dies without any heirs. His baby with the queen dies at just six months - again, IMO, to allow Gojong and Queen Min to step in as a constitutional monarchy would have had his children inheriting. If the BH decided to stay for love and then lost the baby and CJ, that would be just as heartbreaking for me as the ending I received. Maybe that's why they gave us the Bamboo Garden last segment with an unspoken promise of meeting again.

 

Should have just made up a fictional king and let us have our happy ending though - to heck with spiritual evolution. 

11 hours ago, cdcotr said:

J

      I began to wonder how they were going to wrap things up and if they will do a good job of tackling all the plot lines and make it coherent, plausible, justified and still a happy ending. Time was running out. Maybe they were having too much fun with the entertaining story between the king and queen with their explosive chemistry, plus all the hilarious shenanigans of the cast, that they forgot to advance the plot?

Or maybe they never meant to address some of these questions at all.

 

IIRC, in GPG, the original queen died and gone so there was no question whose soul was in that body. It's clear who the lead is from the start.  I don't quite recall if there was a threat of him going back to his time suddenly bec he tried and could not. There were alternate endings but he went back only after his story arc is completed in the past.

     In Mr. Queen, they chose to complicate things by never definitively clarifying what happened to both souls until the very last few minutes and even then, they never really explained things at all. We are left guessing and assuming. 

Bec of this added complication, there apparently was another choice that most weren't even aware was still on the table.   They split the loyalty of viewers. One wasn't sure who to even root for.

     They also had the threat of going back kinda there in the background but then they lulled you into a false sense of security when BH's efforts failed, only to boot him back right before the climax of the story.

     They already had a lot of things to resolve but the changes they added to the original story complicated things even more, added conflicts to resolve, and muddied the waters as to who really is the protagonist. 

     It would have been ok if they were actually able to resolve all these additional complications adequately and with enough explanation by the end.

 

4.     Maybe they were trying to be clever.  Like those shows that have that "got ya!" ending that aims to lead the viewers to believe one thing but it is actually totally different and all is revealed in the end.

We've seen those stories were they show flashbacks at the end to reveal how things really happened given a different perspective.

      This is the only thing I can come up with as a possible reason why they executed the ending like they did. They wanted to, and did surprise everyone with how SY showed up at the end out of nowhere. 

      They were too clever for their own good bec it falls flat since they didn't lay enough groundwork.  There was no flashbacks or reveals or any kind of explanation. She was just suddenly there, BH was suddenly back in Seoul. Some have seen clues or signs but it was never explicit enough to be convincing.

     There was no denouement where all is revealed and explained so there are no doubts and all is clear.

     Instead we're left with more questions and fewer answers bec the ones we had turned out to be wrong.

 

5.     ahh yes, the ending...Actually all the preceding 4 led to #5

      I've talked about the ending before. 2 words - frustrating and disappointing. Almost disrespectful both to the characters and to the viewers.  Though I didn't like who CJ ended up with, I would have been ok with a SY-CJ end game if it was executed well enough, if the groundwork was laid throughout the series so we're not caught blindsided. 

     It wouldn't be as bad if they treated BH's character more fairly.  This doesn't necessarily mean BH ending up with CJ, but at least, don't throw him out right before the climax and right before he sees the fruit of his labors.  Or at least give his character enough respect to finish out his story arc completely. 

     Let his character show the emotions and consequences of his whole experience instead of sanitizing it to make it easier to swallow the ending you chose. 

     I might actually prefer seeing him grief-stricken rather than walking off into the sun with a smile on his face bec it would show that it all happened, that the journey we went on with him, actually happened, that it mattered and had weight enough that he felt the repercussions.

    

     I suddenly remember the ending of Splish Splash Love where they had to part but they got to say goodbye (cue tears) and showed how both were gutted by it but she returns, was recovering, then reincarnated King shows up. Sad but much better ending.

 

Yes, yes, yes on all of these points!!! I went a reincarnation theory, but in all honesty, I'd rather have had something more like the book "swap made 'right'" or the drama "queen gone with no turning back." 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Sandy Prater

[miaka fy]

Oh my my, lucky I was waiting to download all episodes and after that start to watch it. If not, I won't able to sleep if I sleep with you all in this 204 pages  

 

I did watch it because well I like Go Princess Go cdrama version. I want to see if this kdrama remake was alike. I did love it Mr. Queen . Sure Kdrama was able to present something like that without too much censured. About a male soul who are in the girl body and fall in love with a male isn't something easy to present it. I remember when wait a minute Go Princess Go was out, China censured and close everything and in a same time all subject in YT. All ''too much hotting'' scene was cut and recut it. 

 

I dunno how I'm suppose to thinking about the reincarnation theory hm....because in the Chinese version, the mc when back in the real world IN his real male body in hospital. I feel he need to paid his crime to be too much playboy....I think the cdrama version was really stick on the novel version..kinda dramatic one.

 

I prefer maybe more this kdrama version because it's more light and less tragic. Happy ending and also got so many special and short Bamboo episode.

 

The kdrama version did took the novel version until at less change the way how they thinking and make a great serie like that  I enjoy it. 

[icemaid]

 

Jo Hwa Jin and Prince Youngpyeong.

Cr : 라이젤 한 Art/Fan Account 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Twinklebellestar2018]

In Bamboo Forest/Secret BH introduced himself to the King and he only loves himself though, I mean if it was a genuine feeling for CJ he wouldn't be that conceited guy about himself.

[cdcotr]

4 hours ago, Sandy Prater said:

Wanted to share my thoughts on their (cruel, cruel, Vulcan-like-logic-but-still-cruel) rationale.

 

Been thinking about the ending a lot and why they made the decision to send BH back  I believe they did it because it wouldn’t make sense for him to live a life he essentially already lived as SY. Reincarnation is meant to be a means for a soul to grow and spiritually evolve, which it could not do by simply repeating what it had already done. Also, for some reason (I suspect so as not to offend Koreans by skipping over one of the most beloved and prominent historical figures in their culture - Queen Min), they still have CJ dying at age 32. This can be seen in the book BH is looking at when he’s seeing his portrait, and he dies without any heirs. His baby with the queen dies at just six months - again, IMO, to allow Gojong and Queen Min to step in as a constitutional monarchy would have had his children inheriting. If the BH decided to stay for love and then lost the baby and CJ, that would be just as heartbreaking for me as the ending I received. Maybe that's why they gave us the Bamboo Garden last segment with an unspoken promise of meeting again.

 

 

Knowing they didn't change the fact that CJ died young and their child died too, in some weird skewed way, it was probably better bec he wouldn't be pining, feeling like something is missing and wondering about why his wife is different for long (though 12 years is long enough)

 

It is almost impossible for CJ to be certain that a different soul inhabited the Queen and that this is the soul he fell in love with.  So, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that he will love SY bec like KJH said, he thinks it's his wife.  But I still think that he will probably always feel something missing.

CJ is too smart to not have at least a suspicion that things aren't what they seem. After watching these MVs, and seeing him asking abt BH being from the future that night in the mountains, it makes me think that he probably does somewhere inside him, believe that BH is from the future. Maybe subconsciously, and just doesn't dwell on it.  SB's behavior is too different, his ideas too different from the mores of the time.

But really, what can he do about it? Better to just make yourself believe that all is well rather than open that can of worms and reopen the wounds.

So I think he probably just let it be and eventually does love SY, esp if she takes on some of BH's quirks.

 

4 hours ago, Sandy Prater said:

Should have just made up a fictional king and let us have our happy ending though - to heck with spiritual evolution. 

 

This! Why did they have to pick real historical figures? They just box themselves in and limit their options. 

If they chose a totally fictional kingdom, or monarch, they could do whatever the heck they want!

It is a fantasy after all, why not go full out? LOL

 

@aisling that MV was well made, good editing. Thanks! That short scene with CJH seeing CJ's picture in the book was great acting. Lots of different emotions flickered in his eyes. It is a shame he wasn't given more to do, and more time to explore who BH becomes post-CJ.

 

 

[Sandy Prater]

One thing I loved about the original novel version, compared to Mr. Queen, was that the Empress never really lost that playboy aspect to her personality - even while being thoroughly in love with her husband. Time after time, she tried to recruit more beauties into the palace...and each time she was foiled by her jealous husband. The novel had him more or less believing that she was previously a man and he split his jealousy between men who lusted after his beautiful queen as well as the women his beautiful queen lusted after. I don't know if it's the comedic aspect of him trying to find creative ways to avoid sleeping with them, getting rid of them, or keep them away from the palace, or if it's just the fact that it seems "truer" to the original character's identity while still allowing for love to blossom, but I really enjoyed it. No questions of outside influences either. Queen was happily enjoying her own life in present times as the playboy. Just wish the CDrama adaptation wasn't so low budget and cheesy. Maybe the buzz from Mr. Queen will inspire another country's film industry to have a go at it and spawn as many adaptations as Boys Over Flowers (which apparently is seeing yet another version this year from Thailand this time...how many does that even make? Sheesh).

 

Selection from the novel ending below:

 

http://allsynopsis.blogspot.com/2016/01/go-princess-go-novel-ending.html

 

 

[aisling]

Not sure who exactly we’ll see in the commentary though.

 

The song that was played when So Bong missed Cheoljong in the palace is out. I’m confused why they used So Yong picture when this song wasn’t even played in the spin-off, right? I as far as I remember it was only played in episode 18 when So Bong saw Cheoljong everywhere. 

[Sandy Prater]

2 hours ago, aisling said:

 

Not sure who exactly we’ll see in the commentary though.

 

 

The song that was played when So Bong missed Cheoljong in the palace is out. I’m confused why they used So Yong picture when this song wasn’t even played in the spin-off, right? I as far as I remember it was only played in episode 18 when So Bong saw Cheoljong everywhere. 

Please, please, oh please let them address the question everyone has been asking about why...why the swap, why the connection, why that ending. Even if it blasts my theory into smithereeens and leaves my heart aching - I want to know.

 

As for SY. For some reason, they've almost exclusively used that shot of SY and CJ under the eaves as the "cover" photo for Mr. Queen: the Secret/Bamboo Forest and probably just went with her picture as the story is from the queen's perspective. I feel ya though - to me (regardless of any theory as to what/who/how), the one I always imagine is the protagonist is Mr. Queen.

[aisling]

14 minutes ago, Sandy Prater said:

Please, please, oh please let them address the question everyone has been asking about why...why the swap, why the connection, why that ending. Even if it blasts my theory into smithereeens and leaves my heart aching - I want to know.

 

As for SY. For some reason, they've almost exclusively used that shot of SY and CJ under the eaves as the "cover" photo for Mr. Queen: the Secret/Bamboo Forest and probably just went with her picture as the story is from the queen's perspective. I feel ya though - to me (regardless of any theory as to what/who/how), the one I always imagine is the protagonist is Mr. Queen.

I think you’ll be disappointed by the commentary in the sense that it won’t bring us the closure. They will try to shove that ending down our throats. They wouldn’t be criticising their own work, would they? 
 

They will try to tell us Bong Hwan was happy after abandoning every one he loved in Joseon like we didn’t have our own eyes to see.
 

From what I gathered the director, Jung Hyun and Shin Hye were the ones who attended commentary but I’m not 100% sure.

[icemaid]

Cutie Seol In Ah! (Jo Hwa Jin).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Prater]

Need to lighten the mood. Whoever this is has mad editing skills. Absolutely hilarious from beginning to end.

 

 

[Raffles]

Random thought of the day, because I can't seem to quit this show.

 

Watching some of the recent fan videos brought some scenes back to mind, specifically So Bong's growing worry at the king's absence that led to her collapsing in tears. Up to that point I was sure Bong Hwan was going back to his 2021 life, but that was the moment I began to wonder if the writers were "all in" on keeping him in So Yong's body. It seemed that his soul was increasingly aligning with its host body and that the queen was experiencing very strong emotions she didn't understand, but that women would. In short, it seemed like the writers and Shin Hye Sun herself were expressing a continuation of the character's transition from one state to another.

 

Knowing the ending, I suppose that was just a sign of So Yong's spirit coming more out of the shell it had retreated to and reasserting itself. Which may lead to a kinder interpretation of her character, that it was extreme worry for the king that brought her back rather than a desire to enjoy another's victory when it was safe (she didn't come back when it was safe in any case, being shot and all).

[Sandy Prater]

I cannot imagine the amount of patience and effort needed to make this. Clips were from like almost 8 different shows. They even overlaid dialogue from Mr. Queen. Sorry for all the recent video posts, but there's just been really superb ones popping up in my feed these last two days. The last 30 seconds are my favorite.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Sandy Prater

[HelloNica]

 

Mr. Queen Shin Hye Sun as Bong Hwan and So Yong Interview