[Drama 2021] Mouse, 마우스

[nrllee]

@bedifferent okay I watched 2 eps.  It’s gruesome.  Not sure what I signed up for.   I thought the little boy who found the mouse is the same boy who is older (SeoJoon’s son).  I had the impression it was depicting he was odd right from the start.  The problem I have with the criminal gene is that the child grows up “expected” to turn into a monster.  You reap what you sow.  If you expect the child to be a monster, he will never learn to be otherwise.  The son of SeoJoon is the doctor (YoHan).  SeoJoon’s son was acquitted of the murder of his father and siblings?  Did you really think he did it?  The scene plays out with him standing at the bottom of the stairs, his father is lying head down and he pulls the knife out of his father’s torso.

 

If he had stabbed his father, he should be standing on top of the stairs, not at the bottom.  Whoever stabbed him did so on top of the stairs?  That’s why his body is lying that way. So I have my doubts he killed his father and siblings.  Yes it was very disturbing seeing him try to bury his brother alive but he didn’t kill him?

 

The mouse incident when he was little.  He took pity on it because it was raining.  Then he fed it peanuts.  That’s not what a person with zero empathy does.  Then he put it in the cage with the snake because the teacher was telling everyone how it was a type of snake that eats mice/rats.  So he just fed the snake.  Just like he fed the mouse.  He smiled when he saw how the mouse attacked the snake and fought back.  It’s hard to tell if he thought it was interesting and not just morbid delight?
 

There were 3 pregnancies mentioned in the early eps.  We have seen 2.  The 3rd was the Speaker of the House?  His wife was pregnant so he opted against the bill.

 

There’s this little boy that caught my eye

the one that locked eyes with SeoJoon’s son.  He seemed almost in awe at the attention he (SJ’s son) was getting.

 

There could well be a copycat.  Someone who idolizes the psychopath who ends up becoming one. 
 

BaReum can’t be the killer.  He doesn’t have it in him.  He’s likely to be the child of the other lady who met SJ’s wife at Dr Lee’s office.  His father was the kindest man according to his wife.  He swerved to avoid a child on the road and was killed.  BR did the same with the bird.  He was nearly killed by MC’s car.
 

Dr Lee is an odd one.  I have my suspicions about him.  Why did he pause over the happy married photos at the house?  Was he jealous?  Did he want that life? Or was he thinking that had his sister not died, she would’ve married SJ?

Spoiler

 

And this lady that talked to him at the lobby after SJ dropped him off?  who was she?

Spoiler

He put his gloves and a hair sample on the hotel bed.  Who’s sample?  Why hair as a DNA sample?

Spoiler

 

And he looked at this photo at the hotel.  Is that his sister?  Who we later found out that SJ killed?

Spoiler

He has a missing younger brother (biological).  Dr Lee was adopted as a child and raised in England. 

Spoiler

 

[shana0127]

The voice over of killer is  of Choi Jin Hyuk. I can recognise his voice as I have seen almost all his dramas . He is that thick hoarse voice . So one thing is sure killer has not yet been shown . I think he will be shown in last episodes 

 

The drama may have more then one killers as well . But the Cross murder is the boy Jae hoon that I am sure. Coz he has ended up hating God Ajhushi and his cross coz  his prayers were not answered !  Whether he killed his own family or is just a suspect , I am not sure.

 

Plus i have a general question.  Why do most of Korean psychopath quote verses of Bible to justify themselves.  Is it a kind of trend among Korean writers to talk bible whenever they write a monster aka psychopath character ? 

[ferily]

@nrllee Oh goodness, if there’s another killer in the picture then that would be crazy

 

@Fruitplus LSG I agree with what you said and Jung Bareum definitely has the psychopath gene in him but ended up not becoming one. I remember in the hospital that the mom said she’s going to raise her child and make sure that he doesn’t become one (along those lines).
 

We know for sure that the boy who put the mouse in the snake cage and also killed his whole adoptive family is the killer. I think people are kind of overthinking the killer being Bareum? As @bedifferent said, the killer had a high IQ when he was younger and wanted to be a doctor, we see that Yo Han is a doctor and that he became one at a young age (there was a scene of a news article saying this). Plus we see in the hospital, he tells the ahjummas that’s yelling for Soo Ho where exactly she should cut herself to die. I don’t think this is just cold behavior going on. The meeting between Han Seo Joon and Yo Han wasn’t shown fully, but maybe HSJ doesn’t want to reveal to him right away that he’s HSJ’s son.

 

Seeing how the drama has been the first two episodes, I’m not surprised that they are revealing who the killer is early on in the drama. I think the drama will focus on the killer trying to find the other boy who has the psychopath gene and maybe even try to convince or turn him into a psychopath

[bedifferent]

 

@Fruitplus LSG @shana0127 @nrllee @ferily

 

I agree that 3 pregnancies were mentioned.  The third one is wife of Assembly chairman/SOH, probably the person in the car Daniel Lee handed the gene findings report too.  All three women kept the babies - Jae Hoon, surgeon Sung Yo Han and a third person unrevealed.  I highly suspected is a man, would love to be a woman... we need more dramas depicted female killers.   I believe this could be one reason the drama is titled Mouse - the babies are like experiment subjects of the psychopath gene test.  Daniel Lee is the investigator, thus why he received the mouse.  I half think the mouse is the same one in the aquarium, he grew into a huge one under the kid's care.  In any case, this depicts how those children became adults with the psychopathic genes.  The killer wanted to send Lee an update on his well being.  This would make your suspicion of the kid  is Sung Yo Han true.

 

 @nrlleeWe assume he killed his family and not a witness at the aftermath.  Maybe you are right, the father fell down the stairs, like he was pushed.  He's a kid, the knife was stabbed at an angle that suggests the killer is an adult.  Jae Hoon would have to raise the knife high. He took Choco out, lured his brother to its grave...all not nice things but we were not eyewitnesses. We only saw the fish poisoning incident which colored our mind.

 

The idea is quite interesting.

 

It's too early so if we assume that JaeHoon becomes Sung Yo Han, we have Head Hunter's son who grew up shunted by his mother, well awared of his father's crimes and his own existence.  Even if we assume that Jae Hoon exhibited violent, manipulated personalities and lashed out vengeance toward those who hurt him, he is still not void of morality.  He knows his actions are wrong and tried to ask for help with the church.  We are left to wonder what if a someone did, would it make a difference on whom Jae Hoon grew up to be.  What if his mother was able to recover over her own trauma and raised him with more love and guidance despite knowing who his father is?  What if Mrs Sung didn't test the fetus before hand?  The results screwed both her life and Jae Hoon.  Having the test didn't end up being advantageous or help cuz her pregnancy was too advanced for the abortion.  Enforcing the tests carry repercussions if the pregnancies are not terminated, either due to medical or personal reasons.  Is it really helpful?  Are people with genetic abnormalities not deserving of a chance to correct their behaviors?  Are they dealt with the scarlet letter even at birth, considered broken and unwanted incapable or deserving of love? Do we give up on them without even attempt to help cuz it's easier to GMO the heck out of people to achieve the perfect society?  What if these people have the potential to change at early in life but could not because of their "label".

 

I thought the kid with the mouse is Jung Ba Reum due to the same reasons that you stated.  He saved the mouse on the street, like adult BR does later.   Feeding the mouse because he overheard the adult explaining about food source, trying to be helpful and was fascinated at how the mouse is stronger than it seems when needing to defend its life.  It could be too simplistic to assume that he becomes a policeman, like his law abiding father  - a sign that he is the other woman's son.  So I am half-sus. LOL I suspect he is the second arm of the experiment where the mother defied the genetic disposition of her baby.  BR has the psychopath gene but he was raised with love and taught to care for others... the mouse on the street, grandmas, neighborhood citizens, etc.  He is kind, good natured (his mother carefully nurtured his personalities and mindset, correcting his genetic disposition).  BR is considerate, selfless, a total 180 degree from his DNA... but only for so long.  He can sense psychopaths like Head Hunter when is close, whether he can be influenced to turn into one is what the drama attempts to show us I think.  The question is if nature's influence can be tampered with upbringing and possibly be corrected if is known early (a pro argument for psychopath genetic testing).   A helpful tool if is applied with a broader mindset.

 

The third boy, the assemblyman's son, will be shown later.  I assume the assembly man kept his genetics study from his wife and raised his son without prejudice.  We will get to see how he turns out.  If he becomes the killer, his is the case of failed intervention with or without knowing the test result.  A case for the non-usefulness of such genetic testing... as human beings and behaviors are genetically programmed at birth.  Social and behavior interventions have minimal effect on one's personality and outcome.

Daniel Lee is an enigma character.  His life is different than his brother's, two kids growing up in two different environments.  We don't know why he is an expert in the field, must have some personal interest or reason.  Did he ever suspected his friend?

 

Anyway, these are my interpretations this early in the drama.  Glad to hear you are watching and posting @nrllee

 

 

[fluffyloaf]

8 hours ago, bedifferent said:

Boxer Song Soo Ho is the brother of the woman Song Soo Jun at the phone booth.  She has his boxing gloves as gifts in the bag before she was lured by the little girl to the Head Hunter's car.  Her mother is the only survivor of the family, she was seen deeply grieving.

 

Ahhh I see! So now I guess my next question is to wonder why the first murder of the boxer is based on vengeance. And if the vengeance is directed towards the boxer himself or somehow the vengeance is related to Head Hunter?

 

First murder was said due to vengeance, was "messy", burned to death in the boxing ring and watched him suffer, boxing gloves were taken, finger pointed out the window and Bible turned upside down, was there a mention of which Bible verse that the blood of the victim was dripping over?

 

Second murder was said as an outcome of the murderer being triggered by first murder, so desire to murder continues. Murder for less reason, just to satisfy the desire. And was this murder related to when the murderer's voiceover said that he was looking for an easy kill that night because he was tired or something or was that for the fourth victim? So woman found in drain and pointed towards a cross outside of the drain. Ring was taken from her right? So this was more of an impulsive kill?

 

Third (attempted) murder was during the magic trick, on a stage, in the presence of Head Hunter. Victim seems purposely left alive. Set up looks like it was meant to be a showcase and perhaps murderer is calling for attention this time. Head cut open and sewn back together by Head Hunter. Two fingers cut off. The second one found at the corner of the stage later on. Usually the victims' fingers are broken to point to some cross right? But instead this time it was cut off. Was there anything in the dialogue that mentioned where the fingers were pointed at this time? It was also because of the delay of finding the second finger that resulted in the victim being operated on by SYH right? JBR attempted to request for another surgeon to operate aside from SYH, but did he also tried to stop the Head Hunter from sewing back the victim's head? The victim's watch was taken from him.

 

Fourth murder, the victim was found hanging in the middle of a nursery. Finger in the mouth, the symbol of a cross cut onto the roof of the victim's mouth. Victim had on all the items from the first three victims as if this was a concluding message somehow (or to confirm the doubts/claim ownership that these are all related to the same serial killings). There was no mention of anything was taken from the fourth victim right? The roofing sheet had a message for the detective (who is related to victims of Head Hunter). This murder might be motivated by the desire to claim ownership and establish himself as the next Head Hunter or to challenge the police force (or even the detective specifically).

 

So it seems like there are some inconsistencies (or I might have missed something):

- Items were taken from victims 1, 2, 3. And then displayed all on victim 4. No items seem to have been taken from victim 4.

- Murders of victim 1, 3, 4 are somewhat related to the Head Hunter but not victim 2?

- All victims are dead except victim 3

- Modus operandi of breaking fingers and positioning them to point to a structure of a cross seems to have evolved for victim 3 and victim 4.

- Only victim 1 had an additional clue related to the Bible while victim 3 seems to have no relation at all to any cross symbolism. The only Christian symbolism related to victim 3 was the presence of the priest right?

 

The motivation started with vengeance, then impulse, then (maybe) as a showcase, then (maybe) as a challenge. I am suggesting this assuming that the courage and ego of the murderer is increasing with each case.

 

 

8 hours ago, bedifferent said:

I agree, the ability to genetically test for the psychopath gene before birth is going to test the nature vs nurture theory.  There's a 1% difference in genome sequencing that separate genius from psychopath - that's what Daniel Lee said.  There is great repercussion if the test is wrong.  We also have the bioethical and moral dilemma of such predetermined decisions.  Let alone the stigma that a kid has to bear just because he was an unlucky recipient of random DNA sequencing.  Jae Hoon desperately wants the chance to rehab and redirect his traits but couldn't find anyone (even his own mother) to help him.  He has no chance of being loved as a child, you can see in his dirty appearance as compared to his siblings.  He was outcasted, feared and punished for something he was born with, something he has no control of.  It obviously say a lot about what responsibilities we as a society need to take on, the kind of actions we need to embrace.

 

I do wonder if the sense of vengeance had anything to do with this. Maybe the vengeance stemmed from a sense of hating being stigmatised by society.

 

Or could the sense of vengeance be about wanting to get back at the Head Hunter by linking back up all the cases up to frame his one and only beloved son?

 

8 hours ago, bedifferent said:

The mouse was also sent to Daniel Lee. I wonder who did and why.

 

Yes I wonder too. Was the "kid" sending the mouse to whom he presumes to be the real "snake"? 

 

Daniel Lee seems to have a lot of secrets of his own. I also wonder if he had any sense of vengeance on behalf of his sister? Would it be possible that he had manipulated the test results of the Head Hunter's son wishing for his son to live through being stigmatised even by his own mother?

 

8 hours ago, bedifferent said:

Go Mu Chi was a brave kid, wasn't he? He single handedly solved the Head Hunter case.  But like his brother (who miraculously survived) still live affected by that horrible night.  Both have PTSD, just manifested in different forms.  Go Mu Won turned to God for protection.  He is emotionally and physically damaged.  Go Mu Chi, on the other hand, chose a life of law enforcement catching killers in memory of his parents.  He lives recklessly like a person who feels invincible because he defied death.  I love his swagger. LOL

 

Tagging the 3 amigos cuz you have to help me answer these questions.  Do watch @taeunfighting @nrllee @pompyavi

 

GMC as a kid was just wow. Like from trembling fear to attempting to attack the murderer. I feel pretty sad though how the story seemingly paints him to be in depression looking at his dependence on alcohol and the state of how he left his house. Love the level of detail that's in this show so far.

 

[bedifferent]

@fluffyloaf wow you have some excellent points!!! Thank you for linking and keeping track of the murders!

 

GMC = do we remain victimized or actively fight off the demons?  I seriously want a hopeful ending on humanity at the end!  I wonder if he has reconcile his feelings that night.  If I were the kid, I would feel guilty and indebted to my mom and brother for saving me.  Live a good life in their stead.  What we see is vengeance by GMC and this need to disprove all that Head Hunter stands for.  He is not in a happy place, there is still a lot of therapy left.

 

Don't trust Daniel Lee a bit.  Everyone in this drama has emotional baggage.  We still don't know the identity and whereabouts of Det Park's missing sister?  What kid would know about his psych testing and who Daniel Lee is?  His parents must have told him, so we are looking at SYH or the third unknown person.

 

About the vengeance thing, we def have different killers and players with varied motives.  Seems like everyone has some unsolved issues, vengeance in a spectrum... LOL.  Agree that the killer's middle fingering the cross is a statement to those who were indifferent and careless to his needs and identity.  The murders could be a series of developmental steps toward achieving his goal of greatness.  To become someone of importance respected by society now.  I think the idea of copycat Head Hunter is good, don't think it is to frame his son.  It's more like glorifying and give presence to special people like him.

 

There's a lot to digest, drama is only 2 episodes in.  Why the boxer is the victim?  Not sure yet, it's a link to the Head Hunter and so once again, copy cat or to establish familial connection to his root?

 

*CLAP*  me too, great points here.  I am going to copy and paste your thoughts 1-4 for reference later.

Spoiler

The motivation started with vengeance, then impulse, then (maybe) as a showcase, then (maybe) as a challenge. I am suggesting this assuming that the courage and ego of the murderer is increasing with each case.

 

Edit:  @nrlleeBoxer killer mentioned that it was his first kill so there you go, Jae Hoon did not kill his (step)father.  If we assume Jae Hoon is the boxer killer.

[bedifferent]

On 3/5/2021 at 8:15 AM, fluffyloaf said:

Because you brought up a good point about the mouse and snake analogy. It might be trying to portray the prey as the predator (or it might also be trying to portray how predators trigger preys to attack first in defense and gets perceived as the attacker). 

 

This is how I read the snake and mouse scene.  Mouse is seen helpless as prey.  It did on the street when the kid saved it from the rain.  Yet, when is pressed into survival mode, it becomes stronger than expected.  We underestimate its strength.  Then there's the hint that maybe all animals/human beings are capable of being violent, surface only when we are triggered.  Predators and preys are interchangeable states, we switch on the mode from a pacified person to a killer if we have the right genetic makeup.  God knows, DNA mutations happen all the time, it can occur any time in anyone.  JBR's accident triggered something in him later.  He will tap into his psychopathic genes to become a killer or a good criminal profiler because he has the makeup of one.  What he will choose is the interesting part for me.  Does he have a choice I wonder?

 

The third victim, the correctional officer Na Chi Kook, case is puzzling.  I think Head Hunter wanted vengeance and to establish superiority over officer Na... he became his savior.   Sung asked someone to set up so the spotlight is on him to save the office. The killer left officer Na alive so Head Hunter can complete the act.  However, there was no mentioning of the cross since this act was a test for the killer or he did it as a favor for his father.  The idea was not originated by the killer, so no need to point blame.  He may even set it up so he can meet his father.

[nrllee]

Nature Vs Nurture and the Mouse (Experiment metaphor)

 

3 children with the psychopath gene - 3 subjects

 

1. Nature - son of SJ. Psychopath dad. Nurture - poor boy has the odds stacked against him.  Everyone thought he was “odd” right from the beginning.  He was “nurtured” into believing he was strange and there was only negative reinforcement (nothing positive) when it came to his cruel tendencies.  Grows up becomes doctor YoHan who seems to be exhibiting similar tendencies with an inability to empathize with patients.  Can someone with “bad” genes and is reinforced with nurturing of those tendencies still defy them BOTH and NOT end up a psychopath?

 

2. Nature - son of Dr Lee’s associate. Kind dad. Died in car accident saving another child. Nurture - his mother vowed to “prove Dr Lee wrong”.  She was going to raise him right.  I think this child grows up to be BaReum.  Seemingly kind to a fault.  Can someone with “bad” genes be nurtured out of the tendencies with loving care and nurture?  Will circumstances (death of people he loves) be the “trigger” to force him to develop those latent tendencies and turn him into a killer?  
 

3. Nature - has the gene. This is the Assemblyman’s son.  Not revealed yet. The “control” in the experiment?  
 

2 children - presumably with no psychopath gene (unsubstantiated)

 

Nature - no gene?  Nurture - MuWon and MuChi.  Raised well.  Brought up in a loving family.  Parents are killed and both move in different directions in response.  One choosing to forgive the killer and becoming a man of the cloth (priest) - turns the other cheek.  The other filled with rage and takes out his anger on perps and lowlifes - an eye for an eye.  I am putting MuWon on my suspect list.  I know he seems disabled but is it a cover?  Not sure.  Need more evidence.  Can someone with no bad “gene” AND nurtured well STILL end up a psychopath due to circumstances thrust at them?

 

Which one(s) will turn out to be the killer?  Which combination?  I think the killer is someone who idolizes Head Hunter SJ.

 

There’s also 3 men introduced (1 missing brother) in the beginning. One we know is the killer SJ.  There’s Daniel Lee.  And there’s his missing brother.  How did they meet?  Were they orphans?  Daniel was adopted by Korean parents who took him to England.  But how is it he has a sister (?) Jennifer who SJ was dating and then killed?  I thought that was odd.  He exhibits all the traits of a calculated killer.  Clean. Meticulous. Tidy.  Highly intelligent.

 

 

 

 

[ferily]

Hmmm so there's a possibly of a third character that has the psychopath gene? Was that discussed in episode 1? I don't remember there being a third person who has the gene. I remember that Han Seo Joon's wife went to visit Dr. Daniel and the other lady that has a baby with the gene was there. Where is the third person in the picture? I don't quite remember 

 

As for the murders, I know for sure that the first victim that we saw, the boxer guy, was murdered because he was directly linked to his father, where the boxer guy's sister was a victim of the Headhunter (If I remember correctly), so I;m pretty sure that's why the killer did it.

 

The second victim is the women who was in the sewer, I wanna say that was just an impulsive kind of murder? Like the killer want to murder someone and chose the lady.

 

The third victim was Chi Gook, and I'm pretty sure that was done because the killer wants to get han Seo Joon's attention, which is why it was done at the prison performance (I'm still wondering HOW the heck the killer managed to do that). I think the killer wanted to show off to Han Seo Joon and show his killing.

 

The fourth victim was because he thought it's a good day to murder, BUT it was also to show that Moo Chi is right about his deductions and that the past 3 victims are all related to the killer, aka serial killer.

 

One thing that we see parallel to all four murders is that the victim is pointing to a cross and cursing it, most likely because the killer prayed to God but his prayers weren't answered. Therefore, cursing God out because of not answering his prayers. IN OTHER WORDS, the killer is a psychopath and I hope the police catch him asap because who knows how many more victims there will be with his killings...but at the same time, I feel like lowkey this is all a cry of help and asking someone to save him from his murderous nature

[nrllee]

55 minutes ago, ferily said:

Where is the third person in the picture? I don't quite remember 

It was mentioned in passing but assumed.  Remember how the Speaker of the House (?) voted the bill down?  He had the casting vote.  And when the Assembly woman asked him why he voted it down, he said his wife was pregnant.  There was a lady who grabbed at Daniel in the lobby after SJ dropped him off at the hotel. Lee handed a file to someone in a black car later on.  I assumed it was a file for the DNA test for the Assemblyman’s baby to be born?  No one else knows much about this test.  It’s just a theory that Daniel is working on.  So far, only his associate (who died) and SJ’s wife have confirmed that they had the test done on their unborn child.  The politicians in the room who were voting to pass the Bill were the only ones who know about his expertise.  And the only one who has mentioned an unborn child was the Assemblyman.  So we’re just making assumptions based on what’s been revealed so far.  It still needs to be confirmed.  But it’s a plausible theory.

 

Quote

 I feel like lowkey this is all a cry of help and asking someone to save him from his murderous nature

yes to this.  

[Fruitplus LSG]

12 hours ago, ferily said:

 

Seeing how the drama has been the first two episodes, I’m not surprised that they are revealing who the killer is early on in the drama. I think the drama will focus on the killer trying to find the other boy who has the psychopath gene and maybe even try to convince or turn him into a psychopath

@ferily I think Yo Han will try to change Bareum, too!

 

I suspect Bareum will have a sad but heroic ending, he will try to stop himself and Yo Han in the end and end up both dying in the last episode, because he realises that he has becoming more like a psycopath...

11 hours ago, bedifferent said:

  The results screwed both her life and Jae Hoon.  Having the test didn't end up being advantageous or help cuz her pregnancy was too advanced for the abortion.  Enforcing the tests carry repercussions if the pregnancies are not terminated, either due to medical or personal reasons.  Is it really helpful?  Are people with genetic abnormalities not deserving of a chance to correct their behaviors?  Are they dealt with the scarlet letter even at birth, considered broken and unwanted incapable or deserving of love? Do we give up on them without even attempt to help cuz it's easier to GMO the heck out of people to achieve the perfect society?  What if these people have the potential to change at early in life but could not because of their "label".

 

@bedifferent Totally agreed with you! High Five!!!!!

 

These early cases may be the doing of the kid of the assembly man or may be the priest (because he believes that God is supposed to guide him, but in his case he still can't control his hatred of unfairness in this world - may be all the victims he killed did something bad??)... And the case should be solved in the first 6 episodes(?), then other cases will popped up, and Probably with a 'helping hand'/guidance from Dr Han in the prison...These cases will be carried out by his son...

11 hours ago, fluffyloaf said:

Daniel Lee seems to have a lot of secrets of his own. I also wonder if he had any sense of vengeance on behalf of his sister? Would it be possible that he had manipulated the test results of the Head Hunter's son wishing for his son to live through being stigmatised even by his own mother?

 

 

GMC as a kid was just wow. Like from trembling fear to attempting to attack the murderer. I feel pretty sad though how the story seemingly paints him to be in depression looking at his dependence on alcohol and the state of how he left his house. Love the level of detail that's in this show so far.

 

@fluffyloaf Wow, another possiblilities! GMC's angle is great!

7 hours ago, nrllee said:

 

2 children - presumably with no psychopath gene (unsubstantiated)

 

Nature - no gene?  Nurture - MuWon and MuChi.  Raised well.  Brought up in a loving family.  Parents are killed and both move in different directions in response.  One choosing to forgive the killer and becoming a man of the cloth (priest) - turns the other cheek.  The other filled with rage and takes out his anger on perps and lowlifes - an eye for an eye.  I am putting MuWon on my suspect list.  I know he seems disabled but is it a cover?  Not sure.  Need more evidence.  Can someone with no bad “gene” AND nurtured well STILL end up a psychopath due to circumstances thrust at them?

 

 

@nrllee I kind of suspect the priest, too... the finger pointing to all the crosses....  Too many suspects... LOL

Edited March 7, 2021 by Fruitplus LSG

[backstreetboysfan]

@mellinadear Yeah you are right as I think about it will would be to obvious for the killer to be the doctor.

 

Could there be more then one killer?.

 

Oh I noticed the voice that was doing the voice over that was Choi Jin Hyuk.

[nrllee]

4 hours ago, Fruitplus LSG said:

@nrllee I kind of suspect the priest, too... the finger pointing to all the crosses....  Too many suspects... LOL

My only hesitation for putting him down as a suspect is because of his disability?  MC said he needed multiple surgeries because of the attacks by SJ as a child.  And he holds his left (?) arm up against his chest all the time.  Does he limp as well?  I didn’t look too closely.  So if his disability is real and he’s not just faking it, then the chances of him being a serial killer is vastly diminished.  He can’t chase down or overpower his victims.  
 

EDIT - signature of SJ the serial killer before he was caught.  He didn’t just lop of their heads, but he tattooed (?) these numbers and letters on their left (?) hand.  It must mean something?

 

 

 

[fluffyloaf]

19 hours ago, bedifferent said:

@fluffyloaf Don't trust Daniel Lee a bit.  Everyone in this drama has emotional baggage. 

 

Hahaha yes! I just briefly rewatched some scenes and I realised that the first scene showing Head Hunter in jail, he noticed that there was a news of a murder and then next page shows that coincidentally Daniel Lee was back in Korea the same week. Hmm...

 

19 hours ago, bedifferent said:

We still don't know the identity and whereabouts of Det Park's missing sister? 

 

Yes I also wonder about Det Park's sister. And also Daniel Lee's little brother.

 

For Daniel Lee's brother I am just wondering if the woman at the hotel who might have potentially passed him the hair sample in a ziplock had actually passed him a hair sample of someone whom he wanted to check if it was his brother? Because he was seen looking at a photo of two men and one woman in his wallet (I think it was Daniel, Jennifer and likely the little brother?) in the following scenes.

 

I also wonder about the little girl who led the telephone booth victim to HH. It makes me really curious to think about why a young girl like her would do that for HH and what is her related to HH? Could she possibly be his unrevealed offspring or just coincidental psychopathic child he met and wanted to train up in his footsteps?

 

19 hours ago, bedifferent said:

What kid would know about his psych testing and who Daniel Lee is?  His parents must have told him, so we are looking at SYH or the third unknown person.

 

I think the two kids tested positive for the genes could also potentially know this. Unsure about the third person but open to the possibility.

 

19 hours ago, bedifferent said:

I think the idea of copycat Head Hunter is good, don't think it is to frame his son.  It's more like glorifying and give presence to special people like him.

 

Yeah the idea of copycat or idolising the Head Hunter would make sense of the mention of his fanclub. Since 3 out of 4 of the cases had some relation to Head Hunter. And the only victim that is still alive seems purposely left alive leaves me wondering why. It only kind of makes sense to me if the murderer intends to use that situation to link Head Hunter back to his son or to remind his son about the existence of Head Hunter (assuming his son already know it is his father) or just to fanboy over the fact that his victim 3 is also now a masterpiece of Head Hunter and his son's surgical skills?

 

Looking back into episode 1, I suspect the kid looking longingly at Jae Hoon in the school hallway is the actual murderer if the speculation about a copycat is right. Because that kid just seems to be in awe of someone who exhibits psychopathic traits.

 

19 hours ago, bedifferent said:

Edit:  @nrlleeBoxer killer mentioned that it was his first kill so there you go, Jae Hoon did not kill his (step)father.  If we assume Jae Hoon is the boxer killer.

 

Revisiting Jae Hoon's dialogue and thinking logically like how some of the other commenters had mentioned about how his father's position on the stairs, location of the stab and Jae Hoon standing at the bottom of the stairs, it got me wondering. Jae Hoon said that he prayed hard that God would not let him be a monster? But in the end, he became the killer. After this was said, I was wondering if he could possibly not be the killer?

 

I was just wondering if someone with a diagnosed psychopathic trait would actually have some kind of desire to be something else. Because wanting to be something else or not wanting to be a monster seems like it doesn't align to the kind of pride a psychopathic killer would have about his own doings (or killings to be exact)? Could the pride and the thrill felt by a psychopathic murderer be overtaken by shame or guilt or a desire to fit in or whatever other reason that would make him wish himself to be something else? I am not entirely sure.

 

Technically, after his father's death he said he became the killer. He did not say he killed his father (to be extremely specific to the point without a doubt), so it just got me to be curious if it was possible that the "being framed as a murderer" angle works here. What if he was made out to be a murderer or made out to be a monster but he wasn't actually that?

 

Maybe he was just legitimately curious about anatomy and biology and animals that led him to feed the mouse to the snake and cut open a rabbit. But everyone was treating him weird and his father started beating him up over it. I could imagine if I were in his position, I might consider sabotaging his father's pets too out of hatred. And what he did to his little brother might just be intended for a bit of revenge bullying, we don't really know if he really intended to fully bury him to death.

 

Since it was mentioned that Daniel Lee's research had a lot of political interest, I was just wondering if someone could have intended to prove a strong enough point about his research (by showing how those who tested positive for the gene as babies do ultimately end up as a murderer) in order to pass a bill that allows the governing authorities to access DNA information on all of its citizens including those who are yet to be born. What if somebody was trying to manipulate public fear for their political agenda?

 

18 hours ago, bedifferent said:

This is how I read the snake and mouse scene.  Mouse is seen helpless as prey.  It did on the street when the kid saved it from the rain.  Yet, when is pressed into survival mode, it becomes stronger than expected.  We underestimate its strength.  Then there's the hint that maybe all animals/human beings are capable of being violent, surface only when we are triggered.  Predators and preys are interchangeable states, we switch on the mode from a pacified person to a killer if we have the right genetic makeup.  God knows, DNA mutations happen all the time, it can occur any time in anyone.  JBR's accident triggered something in him later.  He will tap into his psychopathic genes to become a killer or a good criminal profiler because he has the makeup of one.  What he will choose is the interesting part for me.  Does he have a choice I wonder?

 

Yeah your explanation actually make a lot of sense. It could also potentially mean that those who are by nature harmless can also turn aggressive under certain conditions. But they might not necessarily be a predator.

 

It's interesting that Head Hunter was also seen staring intently at a mouse trying to escape the fence. Was that intended to show psychopaths have a tendency to be interested in studying animals and their behaviours? That scene was also followed by Daniel Lee receiving a box with mice. It might also just be to show that HH was the one who sent Daniel the box after reading about him being back in Korea. If that's true, what is the box of mice intended to say to Daniel?

 

18 hours ago, bedifferent said:

The third victim, the correctional officer Na Chi Kook, case is puzzling.  I think Head Hunter wanted vengeance and to establish superiority over officer Na... he became his savior.   Sung asked someone to set up so the spotlight is on him to save the office. The killer left officer Na alive so Head Hunter can complete the act.  However, there was no mentioning of the cross since this act was a test for the killer or he did it as a favor for his father.  The idea was not originated by the killer, so no need to point blame.  He may even set it up so he can meet his father.

 

Yes this case is indeed strange. It had so many deviations from the murderer's modus operandi including leaving the victim alive. It must require a very strong reason for the murderer to have done things so differently.

 

I know in many serial murder shows, it talks about how the murderer's modus operandi evolves with time but usually there's a trigger for it to evolve right? And also victim 4 seems to have more similarities tying back to victim 1 and 2 so the methods have not exactly evolved has well. It felt a bit more like an interruption maybe?

 

Either that or this is really not done by a serial murderer but just made to look like it hence the sloppy work hahahaha.

 

All these commenting and hope put into this drama. I just hope the storyline won't disappoint later on since we are now still on 2 out of 20 episodes hahaha.

[Lmangla]

Poll alert! chingus, select your choices (top of page) and discuss. enjoy!

thanks to @fluffyloaf for inputs and suggestions.

re: @Sleepy Owl

[partyon]

 EVENT: Quick Poll: Strong Female Leads in Dramas

 

Chingus, a new Quick Poll is up. Vote for your favorite strong and inspiring female leads

 

 

Your Event Organizers,

@partyon @Lmangla @Sleepy Owl

[nrllee]

6 hours ago, fluffyloaf said:

Hahaha yes! I just briefly rewatched some scenes and I realised that the first scene showing Head Hunter in jail, he noticed that there was a news of a murder and then next page shows that coincidentally Daniel Lee was back in Korea the same week. Hmm.

Initially I thought it was because Daniel may have been the killer but I think it’s bait.  SJ likes to play cat/mouse with someone.  Just like the serial killer now is playing cat/mouse with BR.  It’s the added challenge/thrill - catch me if you can.  The fascination of being one step ahead of the Police/criminologist elevates their status amongst criminals.

 

6 hours ago, fluffyloaf said:

Yeah the idea of copycat or idolising the Head Hunter would make sense of the mention of his fanclub. Since 3 out of 4 of the cases had some relation to Head Hunter. And the only victim that is still alive seems purposely left alive leaves me wondering why. It only kind of makes sense to me if the murderer intends to use that situation to link Head Hunter back to his son or to remind his son about the existence of Head Hunter (assuming his son already know it is his father) or just to fanboy over the fact that his victim 3 is also now a masterpiece of Head Hunter and his son's surgical skills?

 

Looking back into episode 1, I suspect the kid looking longingly at Jae Hoon in the school hallway is the actual murderer if the speculation about a copycat is right. Because that kid just seems to be in awe of someone who exhibits psychopathic traits.

Yes to the kid in the hallway.  

 

The copycat idea was introduced to us when SJ was sitting reading in the prison exercise yard. There was a guy in blue standing on the side and then you can hear him say that he would teach Officer ChiKook (?) a lesson.  After ChiKook spoke to SJ at his cell telling him that he isn’t afraid of him, the cell mates next door raised a ruckus.  So they were angry that he would challenge SJ.  That’s why the MO is different for ChiKook.  Whoever did that to him couldn’t kill him.  They did it to show “affection”/catch the attention of SJ. 

 

see the guy in blue? 

he walks up to SJ and says this

and SJ doesn’t say anything except

 

The other thing that I can see is that SJ seems to like to take on projects.  He’s highly intelligent so he bores easily.  He almost seems to be conducting his own real life experiment by wanting to see how far he can push someone before they kill (it doesn’t matter that the person they are wanting to kill is him). He noticed how MC’s anger as a child spurred him to cut his face at his home.  And he’s been egging MC on.
 

Spoiler

 

His eyes turned onto BR at the exercise yard whom he saw with ChiKook moving the box.  Is it possible to turn him into a killer?  He walked up to BR when he was cradling the wounded ChiKook during the magic show and looked into his eyes. So he wasn’t impressed by the show put in front of him from one of his wannabe followers.  He was interested in BR.  Just like he looked into MC’s eyes.  Could he see a potential killer in there?  I think he possibly decided that MC was a lost cause (to becoming a killer), so he found his new project. 
 

Spoiler

Interesting enough. BR doesn’t want YoHan treating ChiKook either.  Same response.

 

Both times he needed someone else to step in to tell him to let ChiKook get treated.  First time it was MW the priest.  And the second time the doctor who said there was no one else they could call on.

 

 

That could be also what the mouse/snake scene was trying to show...and the delight in the child’s face corresponds to the delight a killer has when they instill that same instinct into another seemingly unlikely subject.  See...I am not so different after all,  anyone given the right circumstances and input will kill. 
 

EDIT - I had another thought and that the little boy in the yellow raincoat could be the 3rd child (Assemblyman’s) and not BR or YoHan.  So we only saw the child selves of YoHan and the 3rd person with the gene.

 

EDIT2

Quote

Yes this case is indeed strange. It had so many deviations from the murderer's modus operandi including leaving the victim alive. It must require a very strong reason for the murderer to have done things so differently

 

the real killer was in that room when the incident with ChiKook took place.  Because he took the watch.  I get the feeling it’s their friend (BR and ChiKook’s).  This guy...
 

Spoiler

He talked about the watch.  And he revealed he wants to meet HH.  And he’s part of the HH fan club.  ChiKook scolded him for perpetuating the myth that these serial killers are like celebrities by joining the fan club.  
 

Spoiler

 

 

[bedifferent]

6 hours ago, nrllee said:

EDIT - I had another thought and that the little boy in the yellow raincoat could be the 3rd child (Assemblyman’s) and not BR or YoHan.  So we only saw the child selves of YoHan and the 3rd person with the gene.

 

EDIT2

the real killer was in that room when the incident with ChiKook took place.  Because he took the watch.  I get the feeling it’s their friend (BR and ChiKook’s).  This guy...

 

Moon Woo Jin the child actor will play young Ba Reum, we haven't seen him yet.  He's really cute, good child actor. 

 

Spoiler

 

The little boy in yellow rain coat is not him so we should expect more flashbacks.  I guess we are to follow the adult characters to see if the gene tests accurately predict the children's character. The slow reveal is what make it fun. Yeah, possible that the boy is neither BR or MC. Keep analyzing and guessing! 

 

A lot lot lot of people think that Ba Reum is HH's son, esp since he will be Go Moo Chi's partner.  The storyline can't be this simple!  It's possible you know.  I rewatched part of E1, Jae Hoon's father is his stepfather.... He called his wife after the school conference and demanded that she leaves the store to get "her" son.

 

The boy who was looking at Jae Hoon in the hallway must live in the same town as his family to go to the same school.  I don't think the Assemblyman's child would be going to the same school, his must be a private elite school.

 

12 hours ago, fluffyloaf said:

Technically, after his father's death he said he became the killer. He did not say he killed his father (to be extremely specific to the point without a doubt), so it just got me to be curious if it was possible that the "being framed as a murderer" angle works here. What if he was made out to be a murderer or made out to be a monster but he wasn't actually that?

 

Since it was mentioned that Daniel Lee's research had a lot of political interest, I was just wondering if someone could have intended to prove a strong enough point about his research (by showing how those who tested positive for the gene as babies do ultimately end up as a murderer) in order to pass a bill that allows the governing authorities to access DNA information on all of its citizens including those who are yet to be born. What if somebody was trying to manipulate public fear for their political agenda?

 

 It could also potentially mean that those who are by nature harmless can also turn aggressive under certain conditions. But they might not necessarily be a predator.

 

 

Jae Hoon is a sad case of non-interventions at a time when he needed help.  It's not easy.  Both Mrs Sung and the other woman are single parent.  One or both remarried.  We know the mothers may also experienced social stigma as well.  Ms Sung apparently moved away, opened a flower shop and may even have another child... there was a child calling out for her in the scene.  She wouldn't want to risk her new family by seeking therapy for Jae Hoon even if she wants to.   There is def a sense of neglect from his appearance. This forces him to seek help on his own via school or the church during the formative years of middle school.  Overall, it's a sad testament to the circumstances and social environment that he was in.

 

The other woman may not reveal her son's background either, she herself is also a single mother.  Her will to raise the child as a good person.  She overcompensates for her son's violent genes.  That is not the best way either, BR became self less to a fault, which prone him to possibly become a victim as other people can take advantage of his good nature.  

 

I like @nrllee reference to the Go brothers, how someone who recovered from a devastating event can change personality from a meek boy (hidden and scared in the suitcase) to one fearless and obsessed with the idea that vengeance is justice.  Who knows what will tip these hurt souls over, to eventually turn them into vigilante.  From prey to predators, it's all relative and justified in the eyes of the victim and perpetrator.  

 

Spoiler

MuWon and MuChi.  Raised well.  Brought up in a loving family.  Parents are killed and both move in different directions in response.  One choosing to forgive the killer and becoming a man of the cloth (priest) - turns the other cheek.  The other filled with rage and takes out his anger on perps and lowlifes - an eye for an eye.  

 

[taeunfighting]

@bedifferent @nrllee Hola! I watched, but since you and everyone here have dissected the first two episodes so well and in such great details, I only have a few things I'd like to add:

 

15 hours ago, fluffyloaf said:

I just briefly rewatched some scenes and I realised that the first scene showing Head Hunter in jail, he noticed that there was a news of a murder and then next page shows that coincidentally Daniel Lee was back in Korea the same week. Hmm...

 

 

Also, in this scene, the HH saw a mouse trying to escape through the prison chain-link fence. So, I think he sent the package with two mice to Daniel Lee. When he opened the box, one got away and is loose while one was confined in a container. I believe the HH wanted to taunt Daniel Lee that if his theory on psychopathic genetic testing is true, even though he (the HH) is imprisoned for life/on death row, he has an offspring out there who will be a killer just like him.

 

Regarding the victims, wasn’t there a 5^th one? There was a homeless man in his 50s who was found dead at a construction site. Same pattern, his middle finger was pointing to a cross outside the window. It occurred before the dead girl was found at the greenhouse. By the way, what is with the message that the killer wrote on the roof of the greenhouse which read “Bingo! Detective Ko Moon Chi! Great deductive reasoning!”?

 

About the kids, as of now, I think JBR is the little boy with the mouse and is the son of the widow who wished to raise him in a normal environment. I doubt he knows about his psychopathic gene. SYH, is likely Jae Hoon, who grew up knowing about the gene all all along. Many attributes seem to suggest that SYH may be the killer, but I feel there is more to it. My preference is that they both fall into the 1% difference of genius versus psychopath. Even if one or both are psychopaths, do all of them necessarily become killers?

[nrllee]

19 minutes ago, bedifferent said:

Jae Hoon is a sad case of non-interventions at a time when he needed help.  It's not easy.  Both Mrs Sung and the other woman are single parent.  One or both remarried.  We know the mothers may also experienced social stigma as well.  Ms Sung apparently moved away, opened a flower shop and may even have another child... there was a child calling out for her in the scene.  She wouldn't want to risk her new family by seeking therapy for Jae Hoon even if she wants to.   There is def a sense of neglect from his appearance. This forces him to seek help on his own via school or the church during the formative years of middle school.  Overall, it's a sad testament to the circumstances and social environment that he was in.

 

The other woman may not reveal her son's background either, she herself is also a single mother.  Her will to raise the child as a good person.  She overcompensates for her son's violent genes.  That is not the best way either, BR became self less to a fault, which prone him to possibly become a victim as other people can take advantage of his good nature.  

I have a feeling JiEun had to keep moving and changing her name (and JaeHoon’s) to ward off the stigma.

 

I agree about BR being kind to a fault.  And I have a feeling that could be why SJ/HH is so interested in him.  How far can he push him before this timid, kind man turns into a monster capable of fighting back and killing someone, like the mouse and the snake.   
 

Quote

I like @nrllee reference to the Go brothers, how someone who recovered from a devastating event can change personality from a meek boy (hidden and scared in the suitcase) to one fearless and obsessed with the idea that vengeance is justice.  Who knows what will tip these hurt souls over, to eventually turn them into vigilante.  From prey to predators, it's all relative and justified in the eyes of the victim and perpetrator.  

Yeah it hit home when I watched the scenes again.  With MW (I think we can exclude him in the suspect list), whilst he was watching SJ/HH with the wounded ChiKook on stage, he was trembling and having flashbacks.  Yet he looked past his fear and opted to “trust” SJ to do the right thing and stitch up the wound.  He made the call.  To save another man’s life, he saw past his fear and realized what was at stake.  So his is the option of grace and forgiveness to the same circumstances that MC encountered.

 

His brother MC on the other hand, has been saddled with vengeful thoughts since the murders and he’s consumed by it, his whole life revolves around getting revenge, nothing else mattered (it made him drink to excess, gamble illegally and make bad judgments).  The reporter (Sherlock show), HongJu, she said it best with the course of actions he had chosen.

 

HJ - I understand how you feel but must you find the son also?  What did the son do wrong?

MC - What did I do wrong?  I’ll make his son carry it too!  The horrifying memory that I carry for my whole life!  I’ll make him carry it too!  That’s only fair.  That’s the only way it will be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

HJ - But you would’ve found him by now if you tried.  You’re intentionally NOT looking. (this is interesting, why was MC reluctant to do it?).

HJ - If you kill Han SeoJoon in front of his son, a new Go MooChi will be created. 
 

And that’s the point.  Vengeance perpetuates the problem.  The only way to break the cycle is what MW has done.  I do hold out hope that MC is not so far gone yet.  He didn’t kill the perp earlier on.  And he hasn’t bothered to look for SJ’s son too hard.   I have a feeling he’s worried that come crux time, he won’t be able to pull the trigger.  And all his actions to date would be for naught.   And he would be “lost”.  So much of his drive now and his reason for living is tied up to vengeance.