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[Drama 2020] Alice, 앨리스


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33 minutes ago, kboramint said:

I believe the writer was forced into a corner by the network and was told to give the two main leads, a OTP Happy Ending. Even though they were related. I mean you have Joo Won and Kim Hee Seon as the main leads AND they're not a couple? This is SBS NOT OCN.  So, basically they found a way for Tae Yi to be no longer be related to Joo Won's character. See, in this new reality... Joo Won's character is no longer Tae Yi's son. Now they can get that OTP Ending where they just stare at each other.

 

But even that wouldn't make sense because JG has deja vu or he seems to remember everything by the end. So he would also remember TY looks like his mom (or his mom in a different dimension if his mom is now different). :joy:

 

But yes, I also agree it must be some influence from the network or because of the TV viewership ratings. Now I'm curious what the original script was like.

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8 hours ago, celebrianna said:

This. You echo my thoughts about this series so well. I gave up trying to figure this stuff out mid-series. I thought I would just stop guessing and let the show tell me instead. Nevertheless I held on to the rule that was introduced around the time that the future mother killed her past self and it was said by Seol Oh Wan that changing the past doesn’t change the current dimension but creates a new dimension and so basically there are many parallel dimensions currently. So then I wanted to know how is JG going to put an end to time travel and how will all the dimensions disappear when Seol Oh Wan already said changing the past only creates a new dimension and doesn’t affect the current dimension. Honestly, by the end of the show I gave up trying to figure out what happened. 
 

I was also complaining all the time about the way the show underused the characters. It was such a waste and about midway through the series I realized characters were sacrificed for the sake of the growing strange/undefinable relationship between TY and JG. I notice that even when JG and DY have scenes together, most of the times TY is around them. Basically, she and JG were always together and the ending says it all. 
 

Well, at least I got one thing right and that was the hooded figure outside the gate was an older version of JG. Also that JG have other versions of himself in other dimensions. 
 

I did enjoy the early half of the series though. I suppose the good thing about the ending is that I got some good drama recommendations from the people who are complaining about this series on Mydramalist. Now I want to watch the drama Circle: Two Worlds Connected since they say it was a better written drama but I can’t find it anywhere to stream. 
 

I’m looking forward to Joo Won’s next project and the actor who played Min Hyuk. 

 

Circle is a highly underrated gem. Yeah, I think it would be hard to find. But it's great if you can get your hands on it. At least it handles the paradoxes far better. Did you catch 365: Repeat the Year when it aired? That's another one to look for. It's not strictly sci-fi but at least plausible explanations are provided. I also liked the approach that Train took. That made sense to me at least.

 

I fell in love with Kwak Si-yang too. His MH didn't have too many scenes in the latter half of the show but he was always memorable. I hope to see more of him in these antihero action roles. Seems like he's gained quite a following as a result of this. It's probably one of the pleasanter surprises of this series. I don't think the showrunners ever thought he would be such a popular character. 

 

The show tried too hard to game the audience to the point that they painted themselves into a corner that they couldn't get themselves out of. The result was a plot hole large enough for an elephant and truck to pass through. 

 

To be fair, the show had a number of really good ideas and there were even flashes of brilliance but I definitely agree that they underutilized other characters, basic storytelling just so they let Jin-gyeom and Prof Tae-yi play house. On top of that, their relationship wasn't even that well handled... it was fraught with inconsistencies, not to mention incestuous overtones which they were trying to dodge... or not. Is she mother or not mother? In Episode 15 it seemed like she became mother with the tattoo on her neck. But even that was never explained. MH in his dying moments seemed to see her as his Tae-yi.

 

As far as the temporal mechanics were concerned, the drama wanted its cake and eat it too. There was a lot of talk about parallel universes at the start... I agree but there was very little by way of "showing" in terms of parallel universes that occurred. There was so much ambiguity around that even. The execution of the time hopping was pretty messy. The uncertainty around the multiverses thesis never really lifted. 

 

In the final analysis the only thing that the show did well from beginning to end is the family stuff. I would even go further and say that it was done at the expense of the sci-fi elements. What we got in essence was a makjang with sci-fi trimmings.

 

12 hours ago, Sleepy Owl said:

 

 

Anyway, overall I liked this drama, would not really dislike it because of the final 15 minutes. But I look forward to another drama with similar time travel, having a better ending. 

 

 

To me it's far more problematic than the final 15 minutes. The final 15 minutes was symptomatic of deep systemic issues that were already at play in the episodes leading up to the finale. The whole entire edifice of the multiverse thesis was never seriously or satisfactorily explained. It was assumed for the most part and we were expected to accept that on face value but the last 15 minutes completely undermines all of that. How can these two people end up in exactly the same timeline after a reset? What mechanism allows for this? Is it cosmological? Is it supernatural?

 

After giving this some thought, the show probably conveniently went straight for some watered-down reincarnation angle, never once referencing this previously. It's a complete cop out... the viewers know this instinctively... because it absolves the showrunners from having to give any kind of explanation for all the minding-bending stuff that came before. I'm not that desperate to have a happy ending. I certainly never bought into Prof TY and Jin-gyeom's relationship sufficiently to want the outcome that we got at the cost of defying even the show's own rules or logic.

 

To think that the show was actually pre-produced and we could be saddled with such a haphazard final act is truly disappointing. 

1 hour ago, kboramint said:

I believe the writer was forced into a corner by the network and was told to give the two main leads, a OTP Happy Ending. Even though they were related. I mean you have Joo Won and Kim Hee Seon as the main leads AND they're not a couple? This is SBS NOT OCN.  So, basically they found a way for Tae Yi to be no longer be related to Joo Won's character. See, in this new reality... Joo Won's character is no longer Tae Yi's son. Now they can get that OTP Ending where they just stare at each other.

 

It seemed like a marketing ploy to me as well. That's how it came across to me.

 

Trust me it's not the first time I wished OCN did this show. They do sci-fi crime far far better.

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2 hours ago, kboramint said:

I believe the writer was forced into a corner by the network and was told to give the two main leads, a OTP Happy Ending. Even though they were related. I mean you have Joo Won and Kim Hee Seon as the main leads AND they're not a couple? This is SBS NOT OCN.  So, basically they found a way for Tae Yi to be no longer be related to Joo Won's character. See, in this new reality... Joo Won's character is no longer Tae Yi's son. Now they can get that OTP Ending where they just stare at each other.

 

You might be right. I don’t think everybody bought into it though because I have read a lot of comments on Viki, YouTube and MDL that showed that some viewers were turned off by the borderline romantic vibe between JG and TY. Others simply denied that there was any hint of romance. For me, no matter what, she is another version of the person who is his mother. When I was uncomfortable I just fast forward through their borderline romantic scenes.

 

@40somethingahjumma, I indeed watched 365 and Train and enjoyed both. I’m looking forward to Kairos tomorrow which has a similar concept to Signal. I can’t find Circle anywhere at all. Amazon has it for streaming but not in my region. I will keep looking though since I heard good things about it. 

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I think the writers missed a better ending ...

 

Consider - 2020 Tae Yi has all her memories. Not just of JG, but of Do-Yeon and her caring for JG as well as MH and his noble self sacrifice - she kept all that after the reset.

 

Prior to the reset, Tae-Yi told Do-Yeon to stay with JG. She told JG to stay with Do-Yeon.  It would have fit the ending better if after the reset, she returns to find everyone with no knowledge of the time travel events.  However - JG is with Do-Yeon, and after Tae-Yi sees this, as shes walking away she bumps into a younger MH, they smile at each other .... roll credits

 

Give me that ending and I could forgive the rest .... but that's just me. :rolleyes:

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I really don't understand how this show was already pre-made and pre-done, and this is the result that comes out of it?? What were the writers smoking? How much meddling did SBS play? tvN or OCN would've done this story justice, if they got the writer(s) of Nine or Tunnel to write this show.

 

The time explanations were never properly explained, leaving the viewers bewildered. The ending was stupid, how the F does Jin-gyeom reincarnate into a different person? I mean if killing his old self erased him, but it had no effect on a different timeline. Then why couldn't they just go into a 1992 timeline, and live there?? Why go through all the pain and struggle when they could've just gone to a different parallel universe where no bad stuff occurred.

 

Very disappointed to say the least, even more so because I was rooting for this show since the weird romantic crap in Ep 8 and stuck with it, was elated by the middle half

s interesting plot lines were shown. I think this is a good omen to look at it, to see what not to do when attempting to do a sci-fi time travel/time dimension drama. So many thoughts, I've to let this simmer down and re-assess. The elements that I liked were the family aspects as dysfunctional as they were, and trying to rectify wrongs but realizing that it's not the solution. 

 

Still though, my congrats to the actors of Alice who came through and acted their hardest off for this show. They made this show enjoyable and watchable from start to finish. Good job actors!!! :hooray:

 

The ending that I wanted or thought it would be Min-hyuk and Tae-yi meeting again, and the ending would imply that Tae-yi was pregnant with a baby. And that the couple would name their baby Jin-gyeom. That would've at least saved this drama for me. It kinda negates the ML fighting to save his mom, when in the end, he doesn't even come back as her son anymore. As evident by the stagnant ratings of Alice in Korea. Next time, I hope there's a better usage of these actors in a better precise show. :) 

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42 minutes ago, LeftCoastOppa said:

I think the writers missed a better ending ...

 

Consider - 2020 Tae Yi has all her memories. Not just of JG, but of Do-Yeon and her caring for JG as well as MH and his noble self sacrifice - she kept all that after the reset.

 

Prior to the reset, Tae-Yi told Do-Yeon to stay with JG. She told JG to stay with Do-Yeon.  It would have fit the ending better if after the reset, she returns to find everyone with no knowledge of the time travel events.  However - JG is with Do-Yeon, and after Tae-Yi sees this, as shes walking away she bumps into a younger MH, they smile at each other .... roll credits

 

 

 

I just can't get over the fact that in this reality, DoYeon doesn't know Joo Won's new character personally. Does that mean Tae Yi's foster parents are now her real parents? I mean if time travel no longer exists, then her mom couldn't have travelled back to the 80's to give birth to her.   

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10 minutes ago, kboramint said:

 

I just can't get over the fact that in this reality, DoYeon doesn't know Joo Won's new character personally. Does that mean Tae Yi's foster parents are now her real parents? I mean if time travel no longer exists, then her mom couldn't have travelled back to the 80's to give birth to her.   

 

Good point - just one more hole in the story - If ALICE was wiped out, how did Tae-Yis mom travel back to marry Dr. Jang Dong-Sik and give birth in the 80s.

 

I also just realized, they never explained who the "broker" was and what his deal was - last we saw him, he saved the old lady with the shootout on the bridge, and ALICE never discussed it again ...

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48 minutes ago, LeftCoastOppa said:

 

 

I also just realized, they never explained who the "broker" was and what his deal was - last we saw him, he saved the old lady with the shootout on the bridge, and ALICE never discussed it again ...

 

He was basically written out of the drama without any explanation and is not mentioned again. Hollywood examples would be The Winslow's younger daughter from Family Matters or Cory's sister from Boy Meets World.     

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5 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

To me it's far more problematic than the final 15 minutes. The final 15 minutes was symptomatic of deep systemic issues that were already at play in the episodes leading up to the finale. The whole entire edifice of the multiverse thesis was never seriously or satisfactorily explained. It was assumed for the most part and we were expected to accept that on face value but the last 15 minutes completely undermines all of that. How can these two people end up in exactly the same timeline after a reset? What mechanism allows for this? Is it cosmological? Is it supernatural?

 

After giving this some thought, the show probably conveniently went straight for some watered-down reincarnation angle, never once referencing this previously. It's a complete cop out... the viewers know this instinctively... because it absolves the showrunners from having to give any kind of explanation for all the minding-bending stuff that came before. I'm not that desperate to have a happy ending. I certainly never bought into Prof TY and Jin-gyeom's relationship sufficiently to want the outcome that we got at the cost of defying even the show's own rules or logic.

 

To think that the show was actually pre-produced and we could be saddled with such a haphazard final act is truly disappointing. 

 

I had a discussion about the whole multi-verse theory introduction on another thread with a member a couple of weeks back. I didn't mention it here before because I was kind of waiting to see how they would end the drama, and forgot to mention it here. Thanks to you I remembered it. 

 

Talking about multi-verse, I actually feel like the show-runners kind of created a great confusion here. They spoke about multiverses in the start and thought that it would be an answer to a lot of things happening, but as I said it just made things complicated. I would prefer them to go with alternate timelines. With every change you do in the past, an alternate timeline is creates which will not affect your past self's future. I think in the start, this was what they were showing. And it is logical in my opinion and I think it does help us understand why Alice exists. I mean if I were to time travel to see a loved one, I would want it to be in the timeline where I existed and not in an alternate universe. For me, parallel universe/multi verses are different from alternate timelines. In parallel universe my other self could be anything, like they showed in TKEM's last episode. But in alternate timeline everything is same about me, but just because of certain changes made by me in the past, the future of my past self changed. I hope I was able to explain what I wanted to say. 

 

So if this drama rotated with people of future coming back and messing things up, the drama would not that complicated and still be good. Something happened in future which makes Seok Oh Won try his best to stop the overall "time travel stoppage" project. Jin Gyeom could not find his mom's killer in the future and finally realized all this havoc created by time travelers maybe stopped if he does kill his mom and traveling back to do it. This creates a loop, and also makes thing less complicated. I mean the old Jin Gyeom killing all Tae Yis in 2010 in all universes is not something I would understand. Of course what I said would require some good writing, which the writers were doing, but kind of missed the point in between. 

 

By including the topic of multiverses, one could actually get confused whether the time traveler is from future or another timeline. Like for Seok Oh Won it looked he wasn't from future, but another universe. Same with the old Jin Gyeom. But the mom who killed her past self seemed to be from future, since she even told her daughter to not go to USA when she turns 14-15. Same with the guy who killed his step-brother because he used to bully him. After showing all this, if they suddenly include the topic of travel between universes, then of course people would get confused in figuring out whether this guy is the same person from another universe or from future. Like in Detective Ko's case, they show him in 2050 crying over his dead wife, and then he is sent to 2010 (40 years) in order to kill Tae Yi. He has the same age as Detective Ko of 2010, which means in another universe he was born quite later than Detective Ko of 2010, but they didn't really address it. They left things for the viewers to assume and this is where things went wrong. 

 

Now talking about the whole Prof Tae Yi-Jin Gyeom. Firstly with all those cliché scenes happening in 2-3 episodes (since he took Tae Yi to his old house), I found it useless. Of course I believed that it was just for the ratings, make the viewers more interested thinking about what will happen between them, but as I said, it was useless and waste of screen time and it led to under usage of some amazing characters like Do Yeon and Min Hyuk, especially Min Hyuk. 

 

And I didn't really know about this drama being pre-produced, because then this ending really is a disappointment. I don't really know what went wrong here and who was actually responsible here, the writer who got lost in between or the show-runners forcing the writer to go that way. But seeing how they had started the show, and even till the later few episodes, I felt like the writers did know what they were doing, but then seeing this messed up ending, sort of feels like something really went wrong in between and there was sudden change in plans. 

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13 hours ago, Sleepy Owl said:

Okay Chingu let me explain again. RESET happens from 2010, because it happened in 2010. If Tae Yi would have killed him in 1992, then it would happen at that time and then Tae Yi and all those time travelers at that time would cease to exist. Tae Yi coming to 1992 was time travel, she staying from that time onward meant she became part of that timeline. That's why nothing happened to her in 2010. So whatever happened before 2010, was the same, nothing changed and things changed 2010 onward. Which means since RESET happened in 2010, then all the time travels happened before it will not be affected, since it already happened. This is what Tae Yi had not predicted and she was thinking it will all start from scratch and thus her son would also cease to exist. 

Then how does PJG does not recognise TY as a person that looks exactly as his mother, he walks completely past her and then in the drawing he recognises a random person he walked past that day and not his mum. Also, the green gate house he doesn’t seem to recognise it as his own either, I don’t know if that’s the writers plot hole but it just doesn’t make sense 

 

Also, as someone mentioned DY doesn’t know who PJG is although they went to school together so if it was all reset to 2010, wouldn’t she know him from her friends suicide and also just as a classmate. Also Mr Ko said he never arrested any teenager and we know that it did happen. Honestly, the ending is filled with major plot holes 

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17 minutes ago, Greta Masalskyte said:

Then how does PJG does not recognise TY as a person that looks exactly as his mother, he walks completely past her and then in the drawing he recognises a random person he walked past that day and not his mum. Also, the green gate house he doesn’t seem to recognise it as his own either, I don’t know if that’s the writers plot hole but it just doesn’t make sense 

 

Also, as someone mentioned DY doesn’t know who PJG is although they went to school together so if it was all reset to 2010, wouldn’t she know him from her friends suicide and also just as a classmate. Also Mr Ko said he never arrested any teenager and we know that it did happen. Honestly, the ending is filled with major plot holes 

 

This is why I am saying, they left some questions unanswered and added more questions. 

 

You see, Park Jin Gyeom not recognizing Tae Yi could be for many reasons. 10 years passed, we don't really know whether his mom was alive or not, how did she look if she were alive. He could have easily ignored her thinking she looks like his mom (since he also turned back once after they crossed each other). Now why he does not remember that home is a mystery, what is confirmed was that the house was sold 7 years ago, which means Jin Gyeom lived there at least 3 more years. I'll have to check the episode, since I don't remember whether he does remember that house or does he say it is part of his Deja Vu which he has regularly. So this actually is a plot hole. 

 

Now Do Yeon not remembering Jin Gyeom is actually possible. Let me explain how. They introduced the concept of multiverse here. After RESET only one dimension/ universe stayed, where we see Jin Gyeom is not same as the other ones. In this one young Jin Gyeom himself offers to accompany his mom when she goes out buy drinks. Which means there is high chance that he was not even involved in any case. Which means since no suicide happened, there was no interaction between Do Yeon and him. Students in school already used to ignore Jin Gyeom. So yeah, that's why Do Yeon does not know him. Plus even if she does know him as his classmate, she as a professional reporter does not need to tell she was class mate of "Architect Park" to Tae Yi. 

 

I am trying to explain why things changed 2010 onward only, since RESET happened at that time. All that happened before it was not totally changed. That's why we have Prof. Tae Yi here even though her mom was a time traveler and same with Jin Gyeom. But what ever they showed after RESET was kind of absurd and not logical. They either to explain things better or we could very easily have a very much better ending. 

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5 hours ago, Sleepy Owl said:

 

I had a discussion about the whole multi-verse theory introduction on another thread with a member a couple of weeks back. I didn't mention it here before because I was kind of waiting to see how they would end the drama, and forgot to mention it here. Thanks to you I remembered it. 

 

Talking about multi-verse, I actually feel like the show-runners kind of created a great confusion here. They spoke about multiverses in the start and thought that it would be an answer to a lot of things happening, but as I said it just made things complicated. I would prefer them to go with alternate timelines. With every change you do in the past, an alternate timeline is creates which will not affect your past self's future. I think in the start, this was what they were showing. And it is logical in my opinion and I think it does help us understand why Alice exists. I mean if I were to time travel to see a loved one, I would want it to be in the timeline where I existed and not in an alternate universe. For me, parallel universe/multi verses are different from alternate timelines. In parallel universe my other self could be anything, like they showed in TKEM's last episode. But in alternate timeline everything is same about me, but just because of certain changes made by me in the past, the future of my past self changed. I hope I was able to explain what I wanted to say. 

 

So if this drama rotated with people of future coming back and messing things up, the drama would not that complicated and still be good. Something happened in future which makes Seok Oh Won try his best to stop the overall "time travel stoppage" project. Jin Gyeom could not find his mom's killer in the future and finally realized all this havoc created by time travelers maybe stopped if he does kill his mom and traveling back to do it. This creates a loop, and also makes thing less complicated. I mean the old Jin Gyeom killing all Tae Yis in 2010 in all universes is not something I would understand. Of course what I said would require some good writing, which the writers were doing, but kind of missed the point in between. 

 

By including the topic of multiverses, one could actually get confused whether the time traveler is from future or another timeline. Like for Seok Oh Won it looked he wasn't from future, but another universe. Same with the old Jin Gyeom. But the mom who killed her past self seemed to be from future, since she even told her daughter to not go to USA when she turns 14-15. Same with the guy who killed his step-brother because he used to bully him. After showing all this, if they suddenly include the topic of travel between universes, then of course people would get confused in figuring out whether this guy is the same person from another universe or from future. Like in Detective Ko's case, they show him in 2050 crying over his dead wife, and then he is sent to 2010 (40 years) in order to kill Tae Yi. He has the same age as Detective Ko of 2010, which means in another universe he was born quite later than Detective Ko of 2010, but they didn't really address it. They left things for the viewers to assume and this is where things went wrong. 

 

I started watching the drama right from the first weekend and I thought the same. Alternate timelines is exactly what I thought it was. I even drew a couple of diagrams to help me work out exactly what Seok O-won had said and what I thought I was seeing with regards to the time travelling tourists. I have been wondering from time to time during the last 8 weeks if something was lost in translation but it seemed from other science jargon the show's been throwing at us that the subbers seem to know what they were doing. But the bit that nagged me and threw some doubt over the notion of alternate timelines was the location of Alice and the people who worked there. If indeed Tae-yi went back to the past and stayed there to have Jin-gyeom, she should have created an alternate timeline from the prime line. So why were MH and other Alice staff members continually using the so-called alternate timeline inhabited by our 2020 Detective Jin-gyeom which his mother was supposedly have created? Shouldn't Alice be operating from the original timeline from whence MH and TY came? Or did they create another timeline when they went back to 1992? On it goes... It seemed to me then that we were dealing with a causal loop. 

 

Then the show also threw in the notion of time loops which seemed to be confirmed by the fact that JG continually goes back to the day his mother was murdered. Then there's the question of why didn't Old JG make an appearance much earlier? The more I think about Old JG's 11th hour appearance, the less it makes sense. I love the idea of an elderly future JG but again if he has the benefit of hindsight why does he choose to kill TY on that particular day -- does it have something to do with the super blood moon? Why doesn't he kill young JG before he gets to an age where he can be dangerous to him? Or alternatively why doesn't he appear to Jin-gyeom sooner and give him all the facts? Why didn't he do the reset himself? 

 

What this suggests to me is that the show on hindsight wanted to play with a whole host of time travel tropes essentially to mess with our heads. I don't think it worked well for them.

 

I was always very sceptical about the multiverse or parallel universe thesis because it wasn't exactly what I was seeing. After a while I was convinced that that the show was either trolling us or that they were doing a combination of multiverse and causal loops or the show had no idea what "multiverse" or parallel universes, as is commonly used, means.

 

If the production team thought that creating romantic overtones between Prof Tae-yi and Jin-gyeom would increase ratings they were seriously mistaken. The ratings had reached double digits before they started playing house and soon after saw a noticeable drop. I know that many people on various platforms dropped the show because of this and never came back. Perhaps some of us should have taken it as an indication that the show really wasn't taking the sci-fi as seriously as we had hoped.

 

What I feel is immense disappointment... as someone who watches science fiction avidly... It wasn't a terrible show at all but it didn't live up to the early hype. In the end it was really just about JG and Tae-yi. Except for the odd character here and there, most of the characters were just there so that JG and TY had someone to talk to.

 

What I would have liked to have seen is the show being completely upfront about what it was doing. Kept that simple and consistent, focus on using the ensemble cast well. I would have kept Prof TY in the lab doing research on time travel while flashing back to when the Alice people first gathered together, exploring their relationships and the idealism that once brought them together. Then I would alternate that with the detective side of things. Alice has become a corrupt organization exploiting time travel tourism allowing some of their clients to run riot. Then there is a resistance/rogue organization as represented by the Broker and others who aren't playing by the Alice rules. MH later discovers that he's been lied to about TY and JG and does his own investigation, working out that Cheong Ki-am has got another agenda. He then works with JG and Co to uncover the racket etc etc. 

 

Anyway, no time for fanfics right... have my own projects to deal with... :P

 

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4 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

 

I started watching the drama right from the first weekend and I thought the same. Alternate timelines is exactly what I thought it was. I even drew a couple of diagrams to help me work out exactly what Seok O-won had said and what I thought I was seeing with regards to the time travelling tourists. I have been wondering from time to time during the last 8 weeks if something was lost in translation but it seemed from other science jargon the show's been throwing at us that the subbers seem to know what they were doing. But the bit that nagged me and threw some doubt over the notion of alternate timelines was the location of Alice and the people who worked there. If indeed Tae-yi went back to the past and stayed there to have Jin-gyeom, she should have created an alternate timeline from the prime line. So why were MH and other Alice staff members continually using the so-called alternate timeline inhabited by our 2020 Detective Jin-gyeom which his mother was supposedly have created? Shouldn't Alice be operating from the original timeline from whence MH and TY came? Or did they create another timeline when they went back to 1992? On it goes... It seemed to me then that we were dealing with a causal loop. 

 

Then the show also threw in the notion of time loops which seemed to be confirmed by the fact that JG continually goes back to the day his mother was murdered. Then there's the question of why didn't Old JG make an appearance much earlier? The more I think about Old JG's 11th hour appearance, the less it makes sense. I love the idea of an elderly future JG but again if he has the benefit of hindsight why does he choose to kill TY on that particular day -- does it have something to do with the super blood moon? Why doesn't he kill young JG before he gets to an age where he can be dangerous to him? Or alternatively why doesn't he appear to Jin-gyeom sooner and give him all the facts? Why didn't he do the reset himself? 

 

What this suggests to me is that the show on hindsight wanted to play with a whole host of time travel tropes essentially to mess with our heads. I don't think it worked well for them.

 

I was always very sceptical about the multiverse or parallel universe thesis because it wasn't exactly what I was seeing. After a while I was convinced that that the show was either trolling us or that they were doing a combination of multiverse and causal loops or the show had no idea what "multiverse" or parallel universes, as is commonly used, means.

 

If the production team thought that creating romantic overtones between Prof Tae-yi and Jin-gyeom would increase ratings they were seriously mistaken. The ratings had reached double digits before they started playing house and soon after saw a noticeable drop. I know that many people on various platforms dropped the show because of this and never came back. Perhaps some of us should have taken it as an indication that the show really wasn't taking the sci-fi as seriously as we had hoped.

 

What I feel is immense disappointment... as someone who watches science fiction avidly... It wasn't a terrible show at all but it didn't live up to the early hype. In the end it was really just about JG and Tae-yi. Except for the odd character here and there, most of the characters were just there so that JG and TY had someone to talk to.

 

What I would have liked to have seen is the show being completely upfront about what it was doing. Kept that simple and consistent, focus on using the ensemble cast well. I would have kept Prof TY in the lab doing research on time travel while flashing back to when the Alice people first gathered together, exploring their relationships and the idealism that once brought them together. Then I would alternate that with the detective side of things. Alice has become a corrupt organization exploiting time travel tourism allowing some of their clients to run riot. Then there is a resistance/rogue organization as represented by the Broker and others who aren't playing by the Alice rules. MH later discovers that he's been lied to about TY and JG and does his own investigation, working out that Cheong Ki-am has got another agenda. He then works with JG and Co to uncover the racket etc etc. 

 

Anyway, no time for fanfics right... have my own projects to deal with... :P

 

Again, ITA with all of your post. I highlighted the part that really bugged me the most in terms of character development and relationships. Everybody became an accessory to TY/JG. Even DY who should have a connection to JG just as much as Detective Ko had was sacrificed to TY/JG. 
 

They didn’t do much with Min Hyuk after he no longer acted as an antagonist to JG. I feel he should have been used to uncover the Alice side of the story. Right to the end he didn’t suspect Gi until SY told him not to trust Gi. I mean seriously they could have made an interesting side of the story with Alice with these three. How about actually having SY work with MH to find out what Gi was up to and if he had a part in the murder of Tae Yi. Since they made JG unwilling to work with MH, SY was the best choice. 

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@kboramint IA. It's something I been having an issue with b/c Ep 1-16, I noticed that just b/c the Main Leads of the show are bigger stars, that SBS and/or the writers/PD shoehorned them together a lot (Separate or so) in useless filler just b/c they were our Mains. It's not the actors fault since they stay on/signed on a project before they get the full picture script wise, but woof at how they negated the other characters throughout the show. Disappointed to say the least. 

 

@rocher22 MVP of Alice!!! I feel totally let down with how they handled their supporting cast, particularly Min-hyuk. Detective Ko got a decent well fleshed out backstory, but they never gave one to him. How did he meet Tae-yi? How did he end up at Alice? How did he or TY fall in love with one another? UGH.

 

@celebrianna It was highly disappointing that they didn't give us a proper father/son bonding moment and/or scenes that didn't involve them fighting each other. Had MH been more involved with JG, and helping his son with the Alice investigation than the story of family would've been richer. It's so weird that the PD said that this was a human/family Sci-fi drama, but the ending says otherwise.

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I watched the first half of this drama but then dropped it coz I thought it was heading to some confusion. And as I can see from your comments, that's where it went.  I found an article in the internet that reminds me of this story and probably most confusing crazy movies and dramas.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

  @foreverempress

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2 hours ago, brooksmom said:

I watched the first half of this drama but then dropped it coz I thought it was heading to some confusion. And as I can see from your comments, that's where it went.  I found an article in the internet that reminds me of this story and probably most confusing crazy movies and dramas.

 

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/grandfather_paradox.html#:~:text=A baby girl is mysteriously

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Perhaps the craziest of the time travel paradoxes was cooked up by Robert Heinlein in his classic short story "All You Zombies."

A baby girl is mysteriously dropped off at an orphanage in Cleveland in 1945. "Jane" grows up lonely and dejected, not knowing who her parents are, until one day in 1963 she is strangely attracted to a drifter. She falls in love with him. But just when things are finally looking up for Jane, a series of disasters strike. First, she becomes pregnant by the drifter, who then disappears. Second, during the complicated delivery, doctors find that Jane has both sets of sex organs, and to save her life, they are forced to surgically convert "her" to a "him." Finally, a mysterious stranger kidnaps her baby from the delivery room.

Reeling from these disasters, rejected by society, scorned by fate, "he" becomes a drunkard and drifter. Not only has Jane lost her parents and her lover, but he has lost his only child as well. Years later, in 1970, he stumbles into a lonely bar, called Pop's Place, and spills out his pathetic story to an elderly bartender. The sympathetic bartender offers the drifter the chance to avenge the stranger who left her pregnant and abandoned, on the condition that he join the "time travelers corps." Both of them enter a time machine, and the bartender drops off the drifter in 1963. The drifter is strangely attracted to a young orphan woman, who subsequently becomes pregnant.

The bartender then goes forward 9 months, kidnaps the baby girl from the hospital, and drops off the baby in an orphanage back in 1945. Then the bartender drops off the thoroughly confused drifter in 1985, to enlist in the time travelers corps. The drifter eventually gets his life together, becomes a respected and elderly member of the time travelers corps, and then disguises himself as a bartender and has his most difficult mission: a date with destiny, meeting a certain drifter at Pop's Place in 1970.

The question is: Who is Jane's mother, father, grandfather, grand mother, son, daughter, granddaughter, and grandson? The girl, the drifter, and the bartender, of course, are all the same person. These paradoxes can made your head spin, especially if you try to untangle Jane's twisted parentage. If we draw Jane's family tree, we find that all the branches are curled inward back on themselves, as in a circle. We come to the astonishing conclusion that she is her own mother and father! She is an entire family tree unto herself.

 

@Sleepy Owl , @joccu  @foreverempress

Girl! I have a new rule which is first time writers have to write at least 7 competent dramas before I view their show. Kairos technically has a first time writer so I am being cautious as it is a time-bending drama as well.

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On 10/26/2020 at 5:15 PM, Sleepy Owl said:

I would prefer them to go with alternate timelines. With every change you do in the past, an alternate timeline is creates which will not affect your past self's future.


That was what I thought they were going with and it made sense in the earlier episodes...but something changed?  I don’t know why they deviated from this.  And if this was pre-produced, you couldn’t exactly blame the rushed plot ending because they ran out of time? 
 

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2 hours ago, nrllee said:


That was what I thought they were going with and it made sense in the earlier episodes...but something changed?  I don’t know why they deviated from this.  And if this was pre-produced, you couldn’t exactly blame the rushed plot ending because they ran out of time? 
 

 

As I said before too, the writer made their own work complicated by introducing multiverse/parallel universe and mixing up them with alternate timelines. Both might look same, but have a small difference and they should not really mix them like this. First we were seeing Future people messing up in past (present timeline) and killing their past selves. Some time travelers killing scientists who were in project of time travel (whose main purpose was to stop it). 

 

But then we started seeing people from parallel universe, which was fine, but then they made it confusing. At one point we would not know whether this guy is from parallel universe, or from future of current timeline. So the writer and show runners trapped themselves. 

 

Plus they sacrificed a lot great characters just for the two main leads to have more screen time. As someone above said, ratings were great even when there was not much interaction between the two main leads. We had Min Hyuk and Do Yeon, two amazing characters totally underused. One could actually investigate the whole corruption in Alice and the other could uncover some truth using her analytical mind by reading old articles and help in investigation too. But one was rarely used and the other one just became the typical 2nd FL loving the ML not getting anything in return. 

 

I seriously think that show runners should be blamed for it. They must have wanted Kim Hee sun and Joo Won to be shown most of the times, and it actually happened. The drama actually had a great potential, and I really wonder despite being a pre-produced, how could they mess it up like this. I really think show runners did have some hand in changing the story, because seeing the story, the writer seemed to have clear idea about what they wanted to do with the story, but lost their path in between. 

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