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[Drama 2019] Watcher, 왓쳐

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1 hour ago, ktcjdrama said:

I understood what happened. Just still find it strange that for a prosecutor like her, instead of negotiating with Turtle, eg.offering better compensation, to prevent further harm done to anyone at all, she obediently made a choice as instructed by him. Selfishness? I somehow still don't think she is that selfish to the point of sacrificing other people. In fact, I thought she became so unfeeling like what we've seen so far because of the ordeal she went through 7 years ago. Of course I could be wrong in that she's always been a nasty selfish person.  

 

 

At that moment, I think she was overwhelmed by fear.  I don't think she was at the right mind to calmly negotiate with the perpetrator. 

 

She describes herself as selfish; that's how she views herself.  In that incident, I personally don't think it's totally her fault offering her husband's thumb over hers.  She was in extreme fear; when a person is in fear, there are only two reactions: flight or fight.  She chose the former.  I believe she couldn't accept what she chose afterwards.  She always believed she's a righteous person, and i think she is, since she's still thinking of her first case, that she wanted to find out the small amount of saliva and blood did in fact belong to Kim Jae Myung just to 100% prove she got the right person in jail and exclude all doubts that still lingered in her mind.  She could not believe she made that decision hurting her husband, could not accept she has this ugly side of her, and so she could not face herself; so she chose to suppress this guilt and converted it to anger which allowed her to go on with only one objective, that is, to seek revenge.  In the path of vengeance, she chose to ignore the people around her.  She manipulated her ways to get close to the killer sometimes even at the expense of others.  She deliberately made these decisions and that's why she believes she has been selfish coz she knows she could be a better person.  Unlike her ex-husband, she does have a line that she never crosses.  In the first case, we could see she had no compassion towards the kidnapper, but she did what she could to find the missing child.  She manipulated bad people and made sure they get what they deserve (i.e making sure the organ lady going to jail).

 

This is why I think the character Han Tae Joo is quite realistic.  Good people make wrong decisions.  It is really up to every one of us to realize them, own our mistakes, and face the consequences and try to correct them.

 

[EDIT] Our ability to make conscious decisions and amend our mistakes are what make us human. If we suppress them, we start to lose humanity. 

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Oooh... oooh... a Mexican standoff +1... Pity we'll have to wait till next week to see what comes of it.

 

Yay... ecstatic that DCG is confirmed NOT to be Mum's killer but I'm still baffled that she was killed. Was it because of Kim Jae Myung? Answers next week, I hope. Of course DCG knew who the original Turtle was after dragging the truth out of the ex deputy commissioner... that's why he was stringing JRH along for the ride as a kind of penance. But more importantly he wanted to protect YG from going completely ballistic like he did last time. Boo hiss to the show though... leading us by the nose, up the garden path, beating around bushes and then in circles... where we finally get to this point. I know, I know... whodunit isn't the main thing but why make it sound like it is?

 

The main thing is that question: What does it mean to be human? And the question that accompanies it goes like this: Who gets to decide? Apparently it's JHR aka Turtle who decides who's a scumbag because he's a dad who is suffering great guilt for not being able to protect his own child. But what he's done goes way beyond "an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth". If retribution was all it was, it would have ended with the robber. However, things escalated way beyond that. Not being caught and then aided and abetted by a police cabal gave him greater justification to go on a murderous rampage.

In the story's unfolding that ontological question riddled with irony ends up being some kind of justification for continued resentment and blood lust.

Everyone's mad for revenge. Of course they are... as long as justice isn't done, perpetrators aren't caught, people are angry and can't move on. When the system breaks down and there's no forgiveness... revenge is the logical alternative. Sadly it doesn't end there.

 

What do I make of HTJ's "betrayal" of her husband? It explains a lot. Particularly the braggadocio. A woman who flaunts her sins while harbouring great guilt. It makes a lot of sense. She's a selfish survivor that's dealing with guilt the best way she knows how to. How could she have betrayed her husband like this? But why not? She's only human after all. In terror of the pain... bleeding profusely with no idea if help was on the way.  She broke. This is why torture works because people break. If you've never read The Gulag Archipelago you should because you will not cease to be amazed by the terrible things human beings come up with to hurt each other. (And it gives great insight into how Stalin's Soviet Union was run)

 

That's what DCG probably meant when he confronted the ex-deputy commissioner. There are no small sacrifices/ collateral damage. Even if they start off with good intentions and the friendly fire seems small, they tend to get bigger. From HTJ and YYH who were bystanders... things became really really big. There were enormous repercussions from that event as there were from mother's death. It became a domino effect of soap opera proportions.

 

The justice system is undoubtedly flawed. But when the so-called good guys turn into bad guys, where 's the end to all that. Where can the weak, vulnerable, defenceless turn to?

 

 

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The thing is that Turtle 2 (Chan Hee) was addicted and we heard that people from the Jang society like the district prosecutor were drug-addicts. In my opinion, the addiction is important as it was a way to control and manipulate them. Especially Chan Hee shows symptoms of brainwashing.

However, it doesn't look like it is the case for JHR as he is the one who started this. There is one common denominator between HTJ, her ex-husband Yoon and even JHR: their hatred and their guilt. Yet all of them blamed the wrong person in reality. Yoon blamed his wife (not just for choosing herself over him) because she tried to rectify a verdict and dug in a case. JHR blamed KMJ for the robbery and the pain suffered by his daughter. If KMJ hadn't taught them about the thumb, they wouldn't have hurt the criminal's fingers. HTJ blamed the turtle for this terrible experience. HTJ felt guilty because she didn't protect her husband, JHR felt the same because he wasn't there, when the robbery happened and Yoon blamed himself because he wasn't even able to protect his wife too. 

Remember that in the first case, a child was abducted in order to trap the father who had committed crimes. So their method was to use crimes in order to catch the bad guys so that they end up in jail. The end justifies the means, yet the problem was that the detective Jang (the one who was killed) must have noticed changes and was killed. Now, here is the question: why did JHR kill KYG's mother? One possibility is that JHR wanted to hurt KYG but his wife prevented it therefore she got killed. Another is that he wanted to get rid of KMJ but since he had left the house in a hurry in order to meet the other detective Jang who got killed... From my point of view, the creator's identity of Jang society is not solved. JHR is the one who recruted and trained the turtles but from my point of view, there could be someone else besides JHR.    

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2 hours ago, titania1000 said:

Precious babies who deserve all the love! 

 

Wonder if we can get English subs on this. They seemed to have so much fun, really want to understand what they are talking about. 

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I have to say that beating up the criminal until he has to be hospitalized was not right which pushed the criminal to get revenge. That's why the house of officers were robbed. JHR blamed KMJ for the incident with his daughter but in reality, he was as much responsible as all the others in this violent incident. All this proves that police are not allowed to use extreme violence (the end justifies the means) because the result will be that the criminals will do the same as well. A vicious circle with no end. The boundaries between good and bad are no longer visible.

JHR might have justified this in the name of justice, yet he turned his officers (turtles) into violent machines. They let them become drug addicts. They became even worse than the criminals that they were chasing. HTJ's marriage and KYG's family were destroyed. Deputy commissioner Park even risked the life of many people and he didn't feel any remorse. 

 

As for Yeom, I am now wondering if her real purpose was not to get rid of the Jang society, while she is in reality a corrupted cop, although she doesn't appear in the ledger. Notice that she allows now DCK to destroy the Jang society. The latter needed the ledger in order to purge the prosecution and the police office.  

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Although no one seems to have addressed this yet, I will.  I was very disturbed by the manner in which YG approached Jang's daughters.

 

He may not mean to harm them at all but in fact they are being harmed because he is using them to get to their father.  They are being harmed because he is showing them that the police cannot be trusted.  They are being harmed because he is using his good looks and his deceptive actions to get what he wants without considering what his actions will mean long term. 

 

He menaced both of those girls.  The older one seemed to have a little awareness of it (when she spoke about how his eyes looked odd) but the younger one hasn't realized it yet.  When each of them becomes aware, that's when the deep damage happens--that's when they stop trusting any policeman, any man in power, any man who might be handsome, any man who tries to gain their trust, any man who asks them for information.

 

Jang is responsible for the wrong that he has done, and he will have to pay for it.  His daughters will inevitably suffer as a result because they will never be able to walk away from being labeled as the daughters of a criminal, of a murderer.  While that is certainly a social injustice to them, that appears to be the way these things work in Korea because the extended family is held morally responsible for the actions of other family members.

 

YG knows exactly what it feels like to be judged in this way.  YG knows exactly what it feels like to be a witness to a crime.  YG knows what it takes to overcome distrust and try to forge a life of his own despite this.

 

No matter how enraged he is, there is NO excuse for him to involve Jang's daughters.  If anyone is aware of this, it should be YG.   

 

I was thoroughly put off by his behavior in episode 14.   Contrast his behavior here with the way he treated the little girl who believed that "he was a policeman who could be trusted" in episode 1.  He has changed completely.  And he is no longer worthy of either trust or respect.

 

Somebody needs to rescue YG and help him get his actions under control.

 

Am I angry at him?  Yes.  Very.

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6 hours ago, thistle said:

I was thoroughly put off by his behavior in episode 14.   Contrast his behavior here with the way he treated the little girl who believed that "he was a policeman who could be trusted" in episode 1.  He has changed completely.  And he is no longer worthy of either trust or respect.

 

This is the highlight of his character development. The writer uses this to emphasize how dangerous he’s in right now, he’s on the verge of losing his humanity. I still insist to believe in him, that he’ll snap out of this. I also think DCK and HTJ will do whatever they can to prevent him lose himself. 

 

No matter what, he might have done some damages to the girls already.  :anguished:  At the end, it would be their father JHR who hurt them the most. The elder daughter has already sensed something is off; she’s the ultimate victim. I think she would feel so troubled and may even think it’s her fault (which is so not true) causing her dad to become a killing machine. 

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19 minutes ago, Ameera Ali said:

@thistle I am sad you angry with him :dissapointed_relieved:

 

I am so disappointed that he would do this.

 

By the way, I Love the Black Books gif!  :lol:  That was such a funny show.

 

19 minutes ago, my0t1 said:

The writer uses this to emphasize how dangerous he’s in right now, he’s on the verge of losing his humanity.

 

Yes but I cannot excuse this.  YG knows clearly what these girls will suffer but he selfishly uses their innocence anyway.  He has learned nothing.  Now all he is just another tiresome evil cop when he had the potential to be so much more, when he had the opportunity to use his own pain to be more understanding of a child at risk.   

 

If the writer wanted to do character development, she should have shown how strong he could be in the face of temptation.  Instead, the writer made YG weak and abased and cruel.

 

19 minutes ago, my0t1 said:

No matter what, he might have done some damages to the girls already.  :anguished:  At the end, it would be their father JHR who hurt them the most. The elder daughter has already sensed something is off; she’s the ultimate victim. I think she would feel so troubled and may even think it’s her fault (which is so not true) causing his dad to become a killing machine. 

 

Very true.  This is precisely why I think that YG's actions are excessively inexcusable.  Surely he blames himself for his dad going to prison for his mom's murder, so he should know right away what it will mean to the eldest daughter when her father's evil is exposed.

 

I thought that the eldest daughter was particularly pathetic because of how pleased she was that her dad might actually have talked nice about her and shown her picture.  She is very, very vulnerable because she is already hurt.  And her younger sister is also deeply vulnerable because she's still just a baby.....but there is nasty YG sitting there reading Red Riding Hood to her in a rather threatening way.

 

YG's actions made me feel sick.  They cannot be justified, even from the standpoint of character development.  He's supposed to be the male lead here, the hero.  While heroes sometimes fall from grace, this is a deliberate leap off a cliff.

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i have to rewatch the last 5 eps bc im so confused at this point. but wow kim hyun joo is doing beautifully. i cried for them in ep 14 

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Personally as a fan of dark and ruthless characters I'm all for this development

 

Honestly don't think they showed enough after his dads death in terms of impact on his character but I feel like the last episode finally showed that. The fact that he wasn't already more unhinged after everything he has been through was odd in itself

 

As in - the guy willingly lives in a house he saw his mom get murdered in and presumably showers in the bathtub his dad got killed in

 

He's not near the level of someone like Lee Byung-hun's character in I Saw the Devil and I still felt sympathy there a bit

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1 hour ago, Ameera Ali said:

what , very muscular people , give me break he so muscular :mrgreen: , for you information there a woman too in the team :yum: 

:lol: let me check the Chinese subs when I get home, because I don't remember it being translated as muscular. I think it's more like rough or rowdy? 

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HSK once said the script of drama is very realistic but also truthful to the genre and it was the thing that first got him interested in the project, which I agree completely at this stage. It's particularly true when it comes to the characters' psychology.

 

The boy has lost it, he wasn't in his right mind. There was no reasoning to him at that moment, all he wanted was taking revenge on the person who ruined his life. In that context, he would want JHR's daughters to go through the same experience as he did.  We think he needs to show empathy because he's also a victim but no, he is taking it in a rather wrong way. And it's so realistic. I know his action is disturbing but I would have been disappointed if he was written as a selfless, pure hearted character after all he has gone through.

 

1 hour ago, anony12345 said:

Honestly don't think they showed enough after his dads death in terms of impact on his character but I feel like the last episode finally showed that. The fact that he wasn't already more unhinged after everything he has been through was odd in itself

 

And yes, I agree that this a major character development. If you recall the conversation bet him and HTJ's husband about which type of person the latter is, I believe they both suppress their feelings for a long time, and they are very alike. YG even suppressed his memory about that night and when he found out it's JHR, all hell broke loose. So, I personally don't think he's changing, he just finally expresses himself but in a very negative manner, sadly. DCG knows this so well, this is why he kept the truth from him.

 

After watching e14, I can't help thinking the women in JHR's life are so innocent, happy and clueless while their father/husband has been doing all sort of evil things. I can finally make some sense out of all those sweet scenes between JHR and his little daughter from the beginning of the series. Of course it's not their fault that he turned out that way but nothing is without a price.

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1 hour ago, ktcjdrama said:

:lol: let me check the Chinese subs when I get home, because I don't remember it being translated as muscular. I think it's more like rough or rowdy? 

So I checked... and it does translate to rough and coarse man... instead of muscular.

 

And the description by JHR's daughter about YG's eyes are "magical/mysterious" instead of "odd" @thistle I personally think he didn't menace those girls. Being a police, he has to do some questioning to get information and clues related to the investigation he is doing, albeit a very personal one. So I see whatever he did as just that. Getting information.

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I hope Detective Do will save YG from killing Detective Jang. 

Now we know Detective Jang is the one who killed YG mom but why. Is it because to stop YG dad? Detective Jang started to kill because of his daughter, which I'm sure it is based on what information given by his daughter to YG. 

 

YG is in the revenge mode. Lawyer Han did express her worries that she dont' want YG to become like her. She was in her revenge mode until she realizes that she hurt many people around her for her revenge. 

 

I dont' know what ep15 is going to be like but I hope YG anger will subside. 

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I'm with @ktcjdrama. It never crossed my mind that YG was menacing the daughters. What I saw was a young man who was on the verge of exploding but barely managing to keep a tight lid on his emotions after discovering the truth. Obviously hanging around JHR's place might seem that he was making a veiled threat and sending a message but I never for a single moment thought he would hurt the wee lass.

 

While I understand why @thistle might be upset about YG's recent actions, I saw it as the vicious cycle of violence coming full circle. JHR's sins had come home to roost. Literally. He started it all. For me the scene in the daughter's bedroom was filled with so much irony. JHR had started all of this to protect family and now the day of reckoning is at his doorstep. His secret has been laid bare to the lad whose parents were killed in the sanctity of their own home in front of their son by JHR. I don't know what JHR was thinking at the time when he caused a boy to witness his mother's murder but I imagine that he did not think things would come back bite him this way.

 

Anyway we've seen YG go ballistic more than once regarding the culprit to his parents' murders. This isn't an especially new development. He did threaten DCG in TJ's office which turned into an all out biffo and he almost killed Turtle Park after he attacked TJ. DCG clearly knew that this was going to happen so he kept mum. He chose to punish JHR his way getting him to "run errands" for him.

 

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It was Jang Hae-Ryong after all. The writer did a good job because we all suspected him and then look for others and now we are on square one again. :lol: But now we know why Jang Hae Ryong because the thumb killer.

 

I knew that Jang hae ryong is the one who killed Young Goon`s mother the moment Do Chi-Gwang asked him to help catch the bad guys. The look on his face said it all. I knew that Park Jin Woo told Chi Gwang his name. It was good that the writer made a second character find out about Jang Hae Ryoung in another circumstances and that was Young Goon. That brought maximum tension to the story.

I agree that Young Goon is on a verge on doing something bad. I don`t think he will harm Jang`s daughter at all but he doesn`t think properly right now, his emotions of anger are overwelming. Just like Jang Hae Ryoung might have felt long time ago. He wants his mother killer to suffer.  It is good that Do Chi-Gwang or Han Tae Joo will come to the scene and help Young Goon cooling his head a little to think rationally for a moment. Killing Jang is not a solution.

 

Do Chi-Gwang is one scary guy. I "enjoyed" watching him torturing Park Jin-Woo but in the same time I was scared that he will cross the line for ever. I was relieved when I saw paramedics taking Park Jin Woo and I laughed when Chi Gwang wished him to get better. What a cynical man. :lol: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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