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31 minutes ago, thistle said:

 

I also have personal experience with this form of abuse in my immediate family so it is a hot button issue for me.  It is an incredibly damaging thing.  I hope that your family member is getting all the love and support he needs now.

 

When I read what you wrote, it occurred to me that JI's change came about not only because she met JH but also because Jae In came to stay with her.  Since both happened at almost the same time, it's easy to miss the importance of Jae In's arrival.

 

Jae In says what she thinks and, unlike her sisters, she is unaffected by having an abusive partner.  However, the damage done by their emotionally intolerant blustering father has taken a toll on her, too, because Jae In was in the position of being potentially damaging herself (remember that she has a the threat of a stalking charge against her in France).  I suspect that Jae In has come back to Korea not only to get away from the trouble but also to reflect and change.  If anyone can be helpful emotional support and intuitive insight to JI and SI, it's Jae In who has been on the other side.  Jae In has proven herself to be a strong and supportive sister--like offering advice to JI when they go to meet their father and like keeping their secrets despite being grilled by their well-intentioned mother.  Jae In sees the change in both of her sisters because she knows them well; she is the one to remind them of who they are.

 

Jae In is certainly a catalyst.  I wonder how much she really knew deep down when she invited JH and YJ into the apartment.  Certainly she was aware of trouble when GS came to the door.  She was immediate and very clever in dealing with him, too, because she took control of the situation and he saw that she was stronger than he was.  He would not come into the apartment, and I think he was a bit intimidated by her.

 

I really enjoyed your post because you noticed something important: the return of Jae In did have an impact on her sister's life. Remember that JI didn't want to spend time with GS, however JI was the one who incited her to see that basketball game. Without Jae In, JI would have never seen JH again. Fact is that JI wanted to leave right after the game but her sister insisted to join the team. In this scene, it clearly reveals how damaged JI is. She doesn't want to meddle with GS's people. Why? Because she might have feared that his "friends" could be similar to GS. In my opinion, JI secluded herself and had only YJ as her closest friend. And this is another clue that JI had been emotionally and mentally abused by GS.

 

I have also observed something else: When Jae In was in her flat for the first time, she looked at a photography she made years ago and made a comment about it. This short scene gave me the impression that Jae In would have liked to become a photographer but her father didn't let her do it. But this is only an interpretation from my side. The fact that she learnt many things like piano, French aso made me think that her father forced her to study what he wanted and didn't allow her to do what she wanted. And this would explain why she hasn't looked for a job yet and she is not focusing on her future. MAybe her father destroyed her dream and love is the only thing that keeps her going. I believe that PYJ is the perfect partner for her because once he succeeds, he can give her the stability she needs but also supports her to follow her dreams. 

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Also Jae In took a photo of JI smiling reading the text and commented that she must have really love GS, but the fact is JI is communicating with JH.  I find this also a wake up call for JI... the last time we see her smile abit is when GS inform her not to eat too much or something with some vouchers he managed to get for her in ep1.

 

 

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More food... special lunch box

 

credit to author

 

Seriously the fans of both leads are very generous sending food trucks and lunchboxes.  The actress of SI and PD also received their own food truck before.  Plus the main leads cf sponsors of food trucks, their past colleagues sending food trucks.  

 

Regarding food wastages.  I am really not too sure how they tackle it.  But i am sure Ji Min will eat really well.  Cos she loves to eat. :D

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1 hour ago, bebebisous33 said:

In my opinion, JI secluded herself and had only YJ as her closest friend. And this is another clue that JI had been emotionally and mentally abused by GS.

 

This is an important point in two ways:  1 she had been secluded since her relationship with GS was cutting her off from other people and 2 she managed to keep one close friend.  It is the second that is the most important because it shows that JI had kept one life line and had not been driven so far as to give up all hope.

 

There is something about Yong Joo that I find a little unsettling, though, and I can't quite put my finger on it.  Maybe I sense that she has been somehow enabling JI's relationship with GS.  Possibly this is unintentional but we do see at the start that she is jealous that JI has a relationship while she herself failed at a six-year relationship.  Someone else has already mentioned this (I am sorry but I forget which poster said it and I thought it was such a good point), JH's friend Hyeon Soo is a good match for her.  

 

1 hour ago, bebebisous33 said:

I have also observed something else: When Jae In was in her flat for the first time, she looked at a photography she made years ago and made a comment about it. This short scene gave me the impression that Jae In would have liked to become a photographer but her father didn't let her do it. But this is only an interpretation from my side. The fact that she learnt many things like piano, French aso made me think that her father forced her to study what he wanted and didn't allow her to do what she wanted. And this would explain why she hasn't looked for a job yet and she is not focusing on her future. MAybe her father destroyed her dream and love is the only thing that keeps her going. I believe that PYJ is the perfect partner for her because once he succeeds, he can give her the stability she needs but also supports her to follow her dreams. 

 

 I missed that, and it's also really important.  JIDad thinks that he is "helping" when he forces his daughters into doing what he wants even when it is not at all what they want (like SI's marriage and Jae In's education) but, of course, the opposite is true.  It seems apparent that JIDad is basically a weak man (like how he turns into a whimpering dog when faced by GSDad) who barks at his daughters so that he can maintain some appearance of strength.  GS is very much like him--inwardly inherently weak but pretending to be powerful.  

 

Although Si has not apparently done so (perhaps this has something to do with her role in the family as eldest daughter and the responsibility that entails),  both JI and Jae In have responded to their father's show of force by rebelling (like JI's hunger strike and Jae In's secret return), and it has influenced their character.  JI knows that she is likely to be outspoken in her relationship with JH, so she warns him; that shows a lot of awareness.  

 

1 hour ago, bebebisous33 said:

I believe that PYJ is the perfect partner for her because once he succeeds, he can give her the stability she needs but also supports her to follow her dreams. 

 

I agree that Yong Jae really is the perfect partner for Jae In.  He's soft in some ways but he is not biddable.  He listens to the needs of his friends, and he quietly pursues Jae In in his own clumsy way.  Jae In has her own clumsiness--like the way she speaks her needs in the negative ("what an eyesore" when she sees her sisters hugging and is jealous for herself or when she says "don't kiss me" when that is really what she wants).  Since YJ understands his own clumsiness, he has compassion for hers.  Since he is not as outwardly strong, he admires Jae In's ability.  Each of them intersects exactly where the other leaves off and both mirror the good points in the other. 

 

I guess it's obvious that I absolutely adore this pairing (perhaps even more than the leads).  And I enjoy the pairing even more because they are Not the leads.  It is like what is going on with Jae/Jae is a sweet secret on the side and that is a wonderful treat to watch.

 

1 hour ago, bebebisous33 said:

I really enjoyed your post because you noticed something important

 

Thank you!  A compliment from you means a lot.  I always enjoy your posts so much because you have a talent for seeing into the heart of things.  

 

..............

 

1 hour ago, tok-soompi said:

Regarding food wastages.  I am really not too sure how they tackle it. 

 

Perhaps it seems odd that I worry about food wastage but I do since hunger has been a genuinely serious issue at times in my life--it is impossible to express how deprivation changes how one views food.  It is with some alarm that I notice so much excess (particularly of food) and such extravagance in Korea dramas, and I can't imagine how such things are managed.  The numbers of food trucks at some dramas seems stunning.  I truly hope that somehow all of that food is not wasted.

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43 minutes ago, thistle said:

 

This is an important point in two ways:  1 she had been secluded since her relationship with GS was cutting her off from other people and 2 she managed to keep one close friend.  It is the second that is the most important because it shows that JI had kept one life line and had not been driven so far as to give up all hope.

 

There is something about Yong Joo that I find a little unsettling, though, and I can't quite put my finger on it.  Maybe I sense that she has been somehow enabling JI's relationship with GS.  Possibly this is unintentional but we do see at the start that she is jealous that JI has a relationship while she herself failed at a six-year relationship.  Someone else has already mentioned this (I am sorry but I forget which poster said it and I thought it was such a good point), JH's friend Hyeon Soo is a good match for her.  

 

 

 I missed that, and it's also really important.  JIDad thinks that he is "helping" when he forces his daughters into doing what he wants even when it is not at all what they want (like SI's marriage and Jae In's education) but, of course, the opposite is true.  It seems apparent that JIDad is basically a weak man (like how he turns into a whimpering dog when faced by GSDad) who barks at his daughters so that he can maintain some appearance of strength.  2. GS is very much like him--inwardly inherently weak but pretending to be powerful.  

 

Although Si has not apparently done so (perhaps this has something to do with her role in the family as eldest daughter and the responsibility that entails),  both JI and Jae In have responded to their father's show of force by rebelling (like JI's hunger strike and Jae In's secret return), and it has influenced their character.  3.JI knows that she is likely to be outspoken in her relationship with JH, so she warns him; that shows a lot of awareness.  

 

 

I agree that Yong Jae really is the perfect partner for Jae In.  He's soft in some ways but he is not biddable.  He listens to the needs of his friends, and he quietly pursues Jae In in his own clumsy way.  Jae In has her own clumsiness--like the way she speaks her needs in the negative ("what an eyesore" when she sees her sisters hugging and is jealous for herself or when she says "don't kiss me" when that is really what she wants).  Since YJ understands his own clumsiness, he has compassion for hers.  Since he is not as outwardly strong, he admires Jae In's ability.  Each of them intersects exactly where the other leaves off and both mirror the good points in the other. 

 

I guess it's obvious that I absolutely adore this pairing (perhaps even more than the leads).  And I enjoy the pairing even more because they are Not the leads.  It is like what is going on with Jae/Jae is a sweet secret on the side and that is a wonderful treat to watch.

 

 

1. Thank you!  A compliment from you means a lot.  I always enjoy your posts so much because you have a talent for seeing into the heart of things.  

 

 

1. Your compliment moved me a lot. :wub: So merci beaucoup! Thank you again. I am glad that my analysis are appreciated. But your replies always add another aspect which forces me to analyse even deeper. In other words, this exchange is very enriching hence I am looking forward for your next post! :);)

 

2. Yes, the father chose his sons-in-law with a similar personality: a huge ego but deep down some insecurities. SH is not really different. The physical abuse is his way to ensure that he can feel powerful, as he feels that he is losing more and more. By choosing his sons-in-law with a similar disposition, JI's father doesn't feel threatened by his sons-in-law, his authority is not questioned. GS is all meek in front of his father and we have to expect the same with JI's father. 

 

3. In my opinion, this scene at the cleaning shop is important because JI decided to definite their relationship right from the start, something she never did with GS. She learnt from her mistake which outlines her maturity and abilities. She was able to point out why their couple failed. So she announced to JH that she would always express her opinion and even criticize him, nevertheless he shouldn't question their relationship for such comments. And this leads us to the conclusion that GS must have acted like that from the start. By each argument, he would threaten her with a break up... it was as if with her argument, she would question their relationship. All this made her feel guilty which turned her into a mute person. At the end, she was left voiceless.  But what JI didn't realize is that right from the start, she was brutally honest with JH, she scolded him twice because she didn't like the way he treated his son. JH never took it to heart, he was able to reflect and even accept her point... sometimes not. And this proves one more time GS's immaturity. Not only he can not reflect on his behavior but he also doesn't accept any critic. If someone critics him, then he feels that this person is questioning his entire personality and he questions the love and affection. This is not correct. A parent has to scold a child for his mistake but this doesn't mean that the parent doesn't love the child. In reality, the scolding and even punishment are necessary so that you can learn from your mistakes, even correct the child's behavior. GS is not able to make the difference therefore he doesn't feel loved and recognized by his father.  

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7 hours ago, calledtoteach said:

@hushhh, I did drop this drama, but I do find everyone’s perceptions on this thread interesting.  I will continue reading the posts.

 

I'm sorry this drama isn't your cup of tea. [Not trying to change your mind because you know you.]  I think it is a complex examination of relationships, not only romantic, and familial, but also communal. It's well written, beautiful (if darkly) shot.  It is more cinematic than most dramas.

 

I went back and scrolled through your post and I see that your don't like JI.

 

I can see how someone might not like JI.  The character isn't the usual kdrama female lead. Certainly not for a rom-com (which this isn't), but even most romance drama. She isn't trying to fix anyone, she isn't trying to save her family, she isn't self-sacrificing.  In some ways her character is structured like a wounded male character--closed and self-preserving. Another way to see JI  is that her desire to work towards her own happiness without catering to others because traditions and society says she should is as a  Western feminist construction of women's right to autonomy, agency, and happiness. 

 

There is an element of agency and putting oneself first is is rarely afforded women in drama and in life that can seem harsh and off-putting.  Women who pursue their own desires are often seen a villains--and to guarantee that the dramas tend to make them the entitled rich  or  the striving cunning or greedy. 

 

In someways JI reminds me of the female lead is My Ajusshi. The female lead in My Ajusshi seemed self-focused and selfish, but because she was fighting for basic survival it was easier to overlook her non-compliance with drama female norms of generosity and self-sacrifice. 

 

I think JI is fighting for spiritual/emotional survival in a similar way.  Some of her early conversation with JH is confusing and off-putting, and she insisted she will do what she wants.  I suspect that it is because my comprehension is being mediated through subtitles.  

 

My outlook is Western so I understand her fighting for JI own happiness.

 

Something I found interesting about the character is how she flipped the relationship sequence of discovery. Often when people begin a romance they bring their best self to the table and then overtime their selfishness and less attractive qualities begin to show.

JI reversed that.  She started out tell JH that she is selfish, she not going to protect his heart, instead she'll be looking out for her own feelings.  Every time he asked her to help him get over/stay away from her, she has refused, asking instead some version of, "what about how I feel.  you take care of yourself."  This is a very unusual for a woman in a romance drama to do.

 

Yet as the drama goes on, we see JI working hard to shield JH from the negative outcome from her people.

 

In fact, JI went out of her way to protect GS in the eyes of his father from their break up.

 

I think a lot of the forum's reading on GS is a valid interpretation, even though some of it is not inline with my own.  Also I haven't been watching as carefully as many in the forum because I'm often exhausted when I finally get to the drama.

 

I often say the best dramas is not where the force is "good versus evil".  The best drama is when you have "good and valid A" versus "good and valid B".  There you get general heartache and pain. 

 

I'm pretty sure that GS is going to do something that makes me think a whole lot less of him, but right now, to me, he is a sad self-satisfied product of his class who lack the imagination to investigate the world to see if it is any different or more interesting than he was told it was.

 

We already have a awful villain in SI husband and while the sisters' father might be standard issue in some cultures, to the western eye his lack of interest in anyone's perspective but men of higher status and his own puts him in the villain columns.

 

Honestly I don't how anyone is going to stop JI from being with JH if she wants to. She lives independently, she seems to pay her own bill, she job isn't through either of the fathers, so how will they force her to stop seeing JH.  I don't imagine they will try to lock her into a mental institution, since this isn't that kind of drama.  Her father may stop talking to her, but how much of a loss is that?

 

 

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1 hour ago, hushhh said:

Honestly I don't how anyone is going to stop JI from being with JH if she wants to. She lives independently, she seems to pay her own bill, she job isn't through either of the fathers, so how will they force her to stop seeing JH.  I don't imagine they will try to lock her into a mental institution, since this isn't that kind of drama.  Her father may stop talking to her, but how much of a loss is that?

 

 

Friends and family actually have an obligation to stop JI and JH if their relationship is considered to be an offense to societal virtues.

 

One of the vastly important issues in the relationships we are dealing with in Spring Night is the concept of Filial Piety.  We are about to hit that brick wall in the next episode as the families really begin to enter into JI and JH's relationship.

 

As a western person it is too easy to say "okay, she just won't talk to dad anymore."  While that can and certainly does happen in the UK or the US or in Europe or Aus, it is something that is very unlikely to happen in Asia.  When we watch dramas from another culture, we should understand that they will see things differently and we need to know that before what "we" judge what "they" do as incorrect.  As viewers, we are visiting another culture and we need to remember that so that we can try to understand why things happen.  We are looking in through the window that the internet offers us but we have no right to disrespect what we see by making generalizations based upon our own cultural expectations.

 

Westerners are generally taught to see things through the filter of individualism:  what a person wants is primary and it can take precedence over all others.  In the East, the opposite is true:  the family/community/country comes first; it is a matter of society being predominant.  This is the most basic aspect of Asian ethics.

 

Hyodo (Korean Filial Piety) is considered to be a primary fundamental duty that is expected of everyone.  The blood family is of first importance (hence why accepting a child from another family is extremely unusual).  Joining in marriage is more than two people getting together; it is the joining of two households--this includes not only the future but the past, and it is subject for serious judgment.

 

In Korea, good government for the country begins with good government at home:  basically this means that if dad isn't properly in charge, then the entire country is in jeopardy.  If a child (no matter what age) is not behaving as ordered, this is of great shame to the current family, to the ancestors of the past, and to the descendants in the future to come.  It's a lot of pressure--and it seems like JI's dad isn't exactly up to knowing how to manage his family appropriately.

 

When JI takes a stand against her father's wishes, it is a matter or great seriousness and not merely because it will enrage him.   She is breaking a relationship she was expected to maintain with a man who has her father's approval and who is the son of her father's boss; she is making a new relationship with a man who has not been properly introduced or approved by her father; and, most dangerous of all, her new man is the single father of a child out-of-wedlock.  This is a child who will have to be somehow grafted into JI's family; not only is his birth shameful but so is the fact that his own mother abandoned him.  

 

It is the the problem of Eun-U that has been causing JH's mom to insist that JH find a relationship with someone as "damaged" as he is so that he won't be judged as harshly by his new in-laws who would be likely to be grateful that someone take on their "damaged" daughter.  Since JI has not been married before, she hasn't got those scars but she is very likely to be rejected on a second matter by JH's parents:  she is in breach of filial piety and she has left her previous relationship without permission.

 

Our main couple is really walking a knife-edge when it comes to family relationships.  

 

Presumably someone can offer better information than I but, as I understand it, the basic nine tenets of Korean family piety are:

  • protecting the body your parents gave you
  • serving your parents 
  • respecting your parents
  • obediently listening to your parents
  • supporting your parents
  • remonstrating with your parents if they fall victim to evil influence
  • being successful
  • remembering your parents' virtue
  • offering sacrifice to parents in death rites 

 

 

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4 hours ago, thistle said:

I guess it's obvious that I absolutely adore this pairing (perhaps even more than the leads).  And I enjoy the pairing even more because they are Not the leads.  It is like what is going on with Jae/Jae is a sweet secret on the side and that is a wonderful treat to watch.

Ditto! I was so happy during the most recent episode when the two of them had two meaty scenes together. The first when he fairly comfortably went up to the apartment with her - I mean he was nervous, but not in the taboo eeeeh we're alone in a house together kind of way. The second when she needed to vent after meeting her mother - and in a roundabout way started talking about what her parents would think of him.

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@thistle Your last post was really interesting. But is it not the intention of the writer and director to question these values? I sense that filial piety and obedience are criticized in this drama and it goes further. The misogyny  is here pointed out too. It is clear that the director and writer are supporting women's empowerment. Notice how the mother is supporting her daughters. They should never give up their life. JI and LSI are successful women. Fact is that South Korean society is evolving and changing.... More and more western values/customs are little by little influencing Korean society which is still very traditional. And here is the dilemma: selfishness and the right to choose their own happiness or sacrifice and having the burden to suffer the consequences? LSI has been trying so hard to remain filial and decent that she will do anything to protect her own reputation and her family's reputation.

 

Sure, western societies shouldn't be considered as better. First, they are still not free from prejudices and traditional values. Furthermore, we can also observe the negative aspect of this evolution, when it becomes so extreme: the dissolution of families due to a high rate of divorce, remarriage, the constant moving of family members, the loss of traditional gatherings aso.     

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7 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

But is it not the intention of the writer and director to question these values? I sense that filial piety and obedience are criticized in this drama and it goes further. The misogyny  is here pointed out too. It is clear that the director and writer are supporting women's empowerment. 

 

Yes, I believe that you are right about that and that's kind of what I meant to get at--this drama is about change but we can't understand that it is change unless we look at the background that (as Westerners) we may not understand but that to Easterners is very clear and which they do not need to have expressed.  They know what they are viewing but we may not.

 

We are seeing certainly much of what goes wrong and why in this drama.  That's why I think it will be a serious issue when the families start entering into the relationship equation.  We are going to see the clash of the old and the clash of the new.  Some things will have to change, so there will be crosses and losses along with gain.

 

7 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

And here is the dilemma: selfishness and the right to choose their own happiness or sacrifice and having the burden to suffer the consequences? LSI has been trying so hard to remain filial and decent that she will do anything to protect her own reputation and her family's reputation.

 

The three sisters seem to me to be representative of the classic philosophical horns of the dilemma here:  if SI is a victim of the "excess" of Filial Piety and Jae In is the "defect" aspect (in other words, she's the breakaway), then we can expect JI to be the "Golden Mean" that brings about the best.  It is JI who will show us which way things should go.  Certainly she has already helped SI to find a better way of viewing the child she is carrying.

 

Each of the three sisters helps the other, so I have to assume that the three together will find a way to work out the situation between the families.  Each has insight that the other does not, and all will give strength to one another.

 

 

7 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

Sure, western societies shouldn't be considered as better. First, they are still not free from prejudices and traditional values. Furthermore, we can also observe the negative aspect of this evolution, when it becomes so extreme: the dissolution of families due to a high rate of divorce, remarriage, the constant moving of family members, the loss of traditional gatherings aso.     

 

Truthfully, I don't see Western society as better.  In fact, I think the West has had a negative impact on many positive aspects of the East.  The blending of cultures has not gone smoothly.  

 

I believe that in the West we have stepped too far away from our own cultural past and the basic principles of society--we think too globally while ignoring the realities of the needs of our own families and of our communities; we live as individuals without the strong ties that we need to ground us in reality.  We no longer respect any authority other than the individual.  We revile our leaders (some of whom, to our shame, deserve to be reviled), and we have no one to look up to to lead us.  Our religious belief systems lie in tatters so that we no longer realize on what moral grounds we should be able to rely upon.  We stand in judgment of history while failing to assess clearly our own age.   There is little that binds us to one another, and we become more and more personally isolated.  That makes us weaker than we would like to believe.  It is something I consider with deep concern.

 

Although my family is Western, it was strongly patriarchal, and I was subjected to a degree of Filial Piety that was positively mid-Victorian and was extremely different than any of my friends.  While this had a negative impact on my own life because those in power were flawed, I also see the positive side because I learned self-control and I have no regrets about my behavior toward my family (this is something for which I have deep gratitude). 

 

When others have expectations of us, it gives us a role to fill in society; once we know what the rules are, then we can know how to change them.  Current Western society seems a sort of free-for-all where there are few expectations and all rules are subject to change; I think that leaves many in a wobbly situation where they don't know the best way forward so that the young make decisions they later regret. 

 

Being subject to the guidance of elders is really not a bad thing.  But the elders who are in charge must be deserving.  In fact, that is one of the tenets of Confucian Filial Piety:  the elders should be remonstrated when they have fallen on evil ways.  In our drama, the elders have surely done so and it is JI and JH who must change the course of their families and who must lead their friends on a right path.

 

..........yeah, it seriously looks like I just went on a major journey of mind there.  Oops.

Apologies if this has all been too Off Topic.  

 

To explain:  My education (double majors in history and literature; minor in religious philosophy), my training, and my personal inclinations are toward research and assessment.  I tend to look right down to the core to see both the main picture and the minor points, and I can't help looking at things in any other way. 

 

For me a drama is never just a drama; it will also be a comment on the times, on the past, on culture, and on any of a number of other details.  That is why I really love Spring Night:  it is absolutely loaded with "meat" (in other words, much to discuss and many matters of importance).  It is also full of personal impact for me because of my experiences in dealing with passive-aggressive people.  There are few dramas like it, and I'm really enjoying the ride.

 

.....and I will now return quietly to my hermitage to continue pondering the woes and the ways of the world.  ;)

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Omo i can't keep up with all the discussions here, so good and enlightening. Thank you to all those for your thoughts and opinions. Really help analyze and understand this drama. This drama is really thought provoking:)

 

We need this to get through the week:wub:

 

So cute:wub:

 

 

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3 minutes ago, richelle said:

Really help analyze and understand this drama.

 

Alas, I think too much and analyze too deeply.

 

What I really wanna know is what is going on with the trend with short trousers and no socks!  JH is just gorgeous but, IMHO, he needs a wardrobe adjustment.  Socks, dude; just wear socks.  Your feet (and your viewers) will thank you.  :blink:

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7 minutes ago, thistle said:

What I really wanna know is what is going on with the trend with short trousers and no socks!  JH is just gorgeous but, IMHO, he needs a wardrobe adjustment.  Socks, dude; just wear socks.  Your feet (and your viewers) will thank you.  :blink:

 

Short trousers has been in for a while now (to my delight since I am super tall so it was always hard to find long enough pants, ha ha!) but rest assured, he is probably wearing socks for the really short ones that you do not see ;)

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Well my weather report defaults to Seoul sometimes. And it's stinking hot today. Well hot for me since we are at 4C. Vs 31C in Seoul.

 

So no socks and heat. Ewww....

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52 minutes ago, ck1Oz said:

Well my weather report defaults to Seoul sometimes. And it's stinking hot today. Well hot for me since we are at 4C. Vs 31C in Seoul.

 

So no socks and heat. Ewww....

 

Just checked the Seoul weather out of curiosity.  High today was 84 F.  That is the LOW temperature for today where I live.  Seoul sounds more comfortable than here.  Still definitely stinking hot....and that means stinking shoes, too.  

 

It would be bad enough with athletic shoes but it looks like JH is wearing dress shoes.  Let me tell you, that leather does Not "breathe" well to expel moisture.  

 

Socks, JH.  Seriously, wear socks!  :P

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1 hour ago, thistle said:

It would be bad enough with athletic shoes but it looks like JH is wearing dress shoes.  Let me tell you, that leather does Not "breathe" well to expel moisture 

 

Socks, JH.  Seriously, wear socks!  

Haha, I thought I was only one turned off by this look. I agree athletic shoes would be better, and you could more easily wear short socks with athletic shoes.

 

I found it most odd when he had the loafers on after basketball one day - the day he got a ride with Gi-Seok. I remember thinking that that day Gi-Seok actually looked study in his casual wear when he was walking into the restaurant in slo-mo, compared to Ji-Ho racing around like a crazy (in love) person wearing his loafers and oversized coat. Probably Ji-Ho just still had on his work clothes, but still.

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1 hour ago, sally2 said:

Haha, I thought I was only one turned off by this look. I agree athletic shoes would be better, and you could more easily wear short socks with athletic shoes.

 

I found it most odd when he had the loafers on after basketball one day - the day he got a ride with Gi-Seok. I remember thinking that that day Gi-Seok actually looked study in his casual wear when he was walking into the restaurant in slo-mo, compared to Ji-Ho racing around like a crazy (in love) person wearing his loafers and oversized coat. Probably Ji-Ho just still had on his work clothes, but still.

 

You are, assuredly, not alone.  ;)  

 

Fads come and (thank goodness) fads go.  This one needs to go.  It is inelegant to be walking around with visible naked ankles.  :lol:  And it really is a horror for the shoes in question.

 

I don't mind JH's big billowy jacket--it's not a good cut and it's not a good color but it will serve, and he looks really cute in his white lab jacket when at the pharmacy.  But those short pants, oh my--sometimes girls can pull off that look but guys nearly never can.  Fortunately JH tends to wear nice shirts (I liked the striped he wore recently), and he has not resorted to the current deplorable jacket-and-no-shirt look.  

 

GS wears decent suits and looks work-presentable at least.....even if he is a colossal jerk.

 

Since we've all grilled JI's fashion sense in the past, it only seems fair to comment on the guys.  :D

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@thistle  I've put your quote  under the spoiler out of consideration for those scrolling on their phone.

Spoiler
6 hours ago, thistle said:

 

Friends and family actually have an obligation to stop JI and JH if their relationship is considered to be an offense to societal virtues.

 

One of the vastly important issues in the relationships we are dealing with in Spring Night is the concept of Filial Piety.  We are about to hit that brick wall in the next episode as the families really begin to enter into JI and JH's relationship.

 

As a western person it is too easy to say "okay, she just won't talk to dad anymore."  While that can and certainly does happen in the UK or the US or in Europe or Aus, it is something that is very unlikely to happen in Asia.  When we watch dramas from another culture, we should understand that they will see things differently and we need to know that before what "we" judge what "they" do as incorrect.  As viewers, we are visiting another culture and we need to remember that so that we can try to understand why things happen.  We are looking in through the window that the internet offers us but we have no right to disrespect what we see by making generalizations based upon our own cultural expectations.

 

Westerners are generally taught to see things through the filter of individualism:  what a person wants is primary and it can take precedence over all others.  In the East, the opposite is true:  the family/community/country comes first; it is a matter of society being predominant.  This is the most basic aspect of Asian ethics.

 

Hyodo (Korean Filial Piety) is considered to be a primary fundamental duty that is expected of everyone.  The blood family is of first importance (hence why accepting a child from another family is extremely unusual).  Joining in marriage is more than two people getting together; it is the joining of two households--this includes not only the future but the past, and it is subject for serious judgment.

 

In Korea, good government for the country begins with good government at home:  basically this means that if dad isn't properly in charge, then the entire country is in jeopardy.  If a child (no matter what age) is not behaving as ordered, this is of great shame to the current family, to the ancestors of the past, and to the descendants in the future to come.  It's a lot of pressure--and it seems like JI's dad isn't exactly up to knowing how to manage his family appropriately.

 

When JI takes a stand against her father's wishes, it is a matter or great seriousness and not merely because it will enrage him.   She is breaking a relationship she was expected to maintain with a man who has her father's approval and who is the son of her father's boss; she is making a new relationship with a man who has not been properly introduced or approved by her father; and, most dangerous of all, her new man is the single father of a child out-of-wedlock.  This is a child who will have to be somehow grafted into JI's family; not only is his birth shameful but so is the fact that his own mother abandoned him.  

 

It is the the problem of Eun-U that has been causing JH's mom to insist that JH find a relationship with someone as "damaged" as he is so that he won't be judged as harshly by his new in-laws who would be likely to be grateful that someone take on their "damaged" daughter.  Since JI has not been married before, she hasn't got those scars but she is very likely to be rejected on a second matter by JH's parents:  she is in breach of filial piety and she has left her previous relationship without permission.

 

Our main couple is really walking a knife-edge when it comes to family relationships.  

 

Presumably someone can offer better information than I but, as I understand it, the basic nine tenets of Korean family piety are:

  • protecting the body your parents gave you
  • serving your parents 
  • respecting your parents
  • obediently listening to your parents
  • supporting your parents
  • remonstrating with your parents if they fall victim to evil influence
  • being successful
  • remembering your parents' virtue
  • offering sacrifice to parents in death rites 

 

 

 

 I'm very aware of  how cultural orientation shapes perspective can limit understanding of  cross-cultural narratives.  This is why I often mention that my perspective is predominately western.  I do so because I know is limits my understanding of the nuances in the storytelling.  I also know that my understanding of the story is limited by my worldview and I've never insisted that anyone see the world as I do.  I think that different interpretations can peacefully co-exist.  The better the art the more varied the interpretation will be. We get out of a story what we bring to the story (and more).  I think the difference in perspectives adds richness to the forum. Things only become uncomfortable when individuals insist that their interpretation is the only valid one. 

 

I also have a sense of the difference between the Western-individual identity focus and the Asian-Collective responsibility focus ways of being oriented in the world.  While I can't speak for the Asian perspective, I feel I can say that the western focus isn't entirely individualistic.  We in the West love and support our families up and down the generational line.  We also support our friends and community and I'm aware no one is saying otherwise.

 

I also think that there is a spectrum or orientation towards parental investment. At one end there is the belief what a parent invest in a child and the child repays the parent's investment by investing in the parents when the parent is older and needs help.  The other view is that the parent invest in the child to help the child become self sufficient and able to survive without the parent's help.  Most families, Asian or Western falls somewhere on the spectrum. 

 

I don't think it is that easy for people in the West to stop speaking to their parents unless their parents have been and continue to be harmful to the child. There is often a family member or family friend working to mediate a reconciliation. 

 

The reason I watch Korean drama and Victorian novels is similar, to experience people struggling under different rules expectation navigate their world to fulfill the same desires that my peers and I have.  I don't judge the "correctness" of their approach to life, I can and do judge how harmful their choices are to them. I think my investment of time in the story and characters gives me the right to bemoan and constrains that hinders their happiness. That's usually the results story expect--the audience being upset by whatever impedes the happiness of the protagonist. 

 

As far as I know, the obligations implicit in social contract across cultures go in both directions.  

 

I'm sorry.  My eyes are bothering me so I'm going to cut to the chase. 

Leaders have an expectation of loyalty from their follower.  Yet bad leaders deserve to be overthrown. Who decides when a leader is bad?

Good-to mediocre parents should be honored and revered. Bad, abusive, destructive parents, should be rebelled against or avoided (run chile, run).

 

It is important to understand the importance of filial piety in the society the drama was created for or the drama will lack conflict.

 

If we don't understand how huge a transgression it is to go against the "adults", to go against one's parent, to go against one's father then there is not dramatic stake.  [And I know these infraction are consequential to the society in which the drama was created because I remember a drama being censured because the mother (I think) was not treated with sufficient respect.]

 

To my WESTERN mind the sister's father is a true failure as a father.  He does not take his daughter's personhood in account. He see them as bargaining chips for his own advancement. SI's marriage seems to have been against her will for her father's benefit. 

Now he seems to want to do the same with JI.

 

From my perspective this drama is not meant to be upholding traditional filial obligation.  JI is presented as a disruptor.  She will what she wants. Therefore, I may be wrong, but this battle that is coming will be about disrupting the traditional filial piety that is keeping everyone chained to misery.

It keeps SI chained to a marriage that is hurting her body and soul.

It is making GK wander around lost because he expected to societal hierarchy to cushion his life and didn't develop coping skill to deal with the cushion not being there.

It made JH as romantic pariah

 

Yes there will be consequences, the Greek chorus (Korean actually) has be predicting the destruction of the lovers because you know, they won't take the path society had determine they should take.

 

And another note, if JI was willing to do a hunger strike to have her way as a teenager, I'm sure there is more she is willing to do to have JH as a partner.

 

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1 hour ago, thistle said:

Fortunately JH tends to wear nice shirts (I liked the striped he wore recently), and he has not resorted to the current deplorable jacket-and-no-shirt look. 

Yikes - hopefully that won't happen in future episodes either. My guess is that that would be unlikely, the wardrobes have been fairly realistic rather than closely tied to runway looks. I'm not quite as offended as you by the short pants - it's really the loafers paired with the pants I don't like. I've also found his sweaters and button up shirt looks quite cute. Not as much of a fan of the oversized jackets, but they're not horrendous.

 

I would agree that Gi-Seok has normally worn generic work appropriate suits that are fine, I think that's why his casual look stood out more in contrast to anything else we seen him in. Comparatively more studly - but still a "colossal jerk".

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  • Jillia changed the title to [Drama 2019] Spring Night, 봄밤

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