[Drama 2018-2019] Children of Nobody/Red Moon, Blue Sun, 붉은달 푸른해

[bedifferent]

On 11/25/2018 at 5:11 AM, ktcjdrama said:

I've only found out that the writer of this drama is the one who wrote Achiara. I enjoyed the ride in Achiara. 

 

and @akiera I didn't watch Achiara, enjoyed Que Sera Sera so signed on for the writer here as well. Good drama, hope that you get to watch it soon.^^

 

On 11/25/2018 at 12:08 PM, partyon said:

Everyone seems equally intrigued about the girl in the red/green dress. I do not necessarily think that she is a real person, but instead a "premonition" or a "symbol" of a neglected child. This girl has appeared in the cases  where a person/child appears who is suffering/neglected. First we have the boy Siwan who has severe problems and needs therapy, then the boy who dies in the car accident. After that she appears in the cemetery right before detective Kang Ji-hun appears, next in the greenhouse where the truck driver is, and lastly in front of Cha Woo.-kyung.

 

We already have a strong clue that detective Kang Ji-hun is a person from a broken home. His ex-girlfriend references him as not being able to love unconditionally, and as a person who is clingy. Typical behavior of a person that was abandoned as a child.

 

I thought the girl in the red dress could be Siwan's own dead sister (in the first episode).  She is different than the one in green dress and the one in the office whom they are meeting.  Interesting that the poem is framed and hidden away.  Plenty of children would have seen those words while sitting in the office over the years before it was put away... so the killer was in that office as a child.  We are looking at a killer who was a troubled child.

 

Just wanted to say Ji-hoon's fear of having a child may not be tied to commitment as his ex-GF thought, more due to his family history perhaps.  He turned out to be quite a good person, fair minded, even tempered and chose a profession of public service to help others.  Genuine and thoughtful in character as compared to other in the police station.  I think this is the case where his personality or maybe someone in his past helped him down the right path.  The scene in the elevator when he met his ex-GF shows a man who is clingy to a failed relationship, out of guilt - yes, but def more to his story too yeah?  He looks like a child guilty of wrongdoings, trying to win back the love of a parent.

 

On 11/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, akiera said:

By Sw, did you possibly meant the boy child WK met at the counselling centre? He saw a girl in green dress but her face was not shown to the viewers. It is only from Wk's perspective we have seen the child's face.  The child she is going to meet, I don't think she is that girl appearing before her. Her eyes were little different at least that's what I thought. However the truck driver must have met that child or may have saved the child which must have been when the boy saw them. I saw it without the subs so this could be very much wrong. 

I think the truck driver will turn out to be the puppy eyed psychopath.

 

Siwan possibly has the gift like Woo-kyung.  My impression is that he saw his own sister died behind the stairs, wanted to connect with her again (his attempt to fall to enter her world), and perhaps have other kids keep her company (pushing them down the stairs).  I don't think he is a psychopath in training, but a child misunderstood, who wants to help his sister's case.  The curious thing about Siwan is that he is an observer yet was not noticed by the truck driver Lee Eun-Ho.  I figure people with special abilities tend to notice others of the same.  Siwan knows Woo-kyung can help him due to her gift.  If Eun-Ho is the killer, he may not have this gift.  Which brings up the question, how does he know about these abuses and have the right channel/means to commit crimes?  He cannot be the mastermind.  Eun-Ho is afraid of meeting Ji-Hoon, they must have known each other in their childhood.

 

On 11/29/2018 at 10:32 PM, mrsj3n said:

 

The cheating ex husband. Because he strayed when she needed him the most... ===> May the fleas of a thousand camels invade his crotch. And may his arms be too short to scratch. 

 

 

I love this. hhahahaha

 

5 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

@bedifferent To me, the title "children of nobody" means that there are children that are not recognized by their parents therefore they don't exist on the paper. Just like the boy who died due to the hit-and-run, no one claimed the body and was looking for him therefore we can assume that he was never recorded (family register). Like CWK said to the detective, the ex-husband selling dog meat never put the child in the register. 

I have been even wondering if the little girl in the green dress could be her sister who died years ago. Let just say that CWK might have been younger than the sister hence she forgot about her... Since the mother killed a child, she knew that she had to be careful hence she treated her other children differently. She did abuse them but not to the extent to have a child died. This would explain why in the synopsis, it is written that CWK will discover the truth.

As for the mummified mother and the ex-convict, I think too that both are victims. In the first case, the mother tried to cover up for the husband as she felt that she had no other choice in my opinion. I definitely feel that all these mothers have something in common: they were abused. However, in the first and third case, the mother chose to side with the husband hence they got killed. But honestly what kind of a choice was that? The abuse is visible but no one is there to help them... When the pervert met his future wife, she was a minor hence we can assume that he raped her. 

As always, glad to be on the same thread with you.  Appreciate and enjoy everyone's perspectives as well.

 

Sorry, did we conclude that the boy Woo-kyung hit is the mummified mother's son?  The birth was not registered by the parents and they didn't claim him.

 

Yes, I see your point that the title means the neglected children or the abused.  I guess I was trying to connect the poem to the title.  Who are the lepers in this drama?

 

3 hours ago, partyon said:

What I am also equally intrigued about is the original title "Red Moon, Blue Sun". Scientifically, red moons and blue suns happen when there is dust/air particles in the atmosphere that distort the color of the sun and moon. Of course, red moons also appear during lunar eclipses.

In many cultures, from a mythological point of view, the "world will come to an end when the moon turns red and the sun turns blue".

 

Any ideas on what the title could mean?

 

Did you notice the children deaths were retributions, almost same ways, as the abuses by the parents?  The ex-convict was burned the same way that she killed her own child.  I think the amusement park was where they both went when the child was alive.  Interesting that she was killed in the driver seat, not getting out to look around, yet the doc was able to drug her in her seat?  The mummified mother was killed in the hidden attic just like how she hid her child years ago.  There were evidences that a child was playing in the attic with her... I think this is how the killer was able to lure her into the crime scene.  Allowing her to meet up with her child in secret away from the sick father.  The hubby who died of charcoal poisoning was found with bunch of cash, died through his own vices of gambling.  The windfall beforehand was the bait to lure him to his death, with the same reason why he abused his own family, through his addiction.  

 

The poem hinted that the lepers abducted the children at night in hope to cure their sickness.  To leave those lines at the crime scenes maybe is the way the killer highlighting the reasons why the parents were killed.  To tell the public of their methods of abuse.

 

3 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

@partyon Since Red moon has been perceived as a bad omen in the past (For Christians, red moon is seen as an apocalyptic sign), I am inclined to believe that the title implies death and blood. And it is definitely the case: people are killed. As for blue sun, I am not so sure. Honestly, I am associating it to "revenge" or "vendetta": a cold justice. Sun is linked to warmth and life, however this association disappears with the colour "blue". Blue is considered as a cold color. The mastermind is trying to give "justice" to these children, while in reality it is not the case. Like I had mentioned it before, the third deceased was a victim too but it didn't look like it on the surface. The mastermind is too focused on the perpetrators and less on the children.

What do you think about that?

 

Red Moon.  Red Cry. The sorrows and misery felt by the children are now in being avenged at night.  That's the first thing that I see connected between the killer and the title.  

 

Blue Sun. I feel both Woo-Kyung and Ji-Hoon are doing the same in the day for the children but their form of justice is lawful and just in a less vindictive way.  The right form of justice.

 

BTW.   Nam Gyu Ri.  I almost didn't recognize her.  She's so pretty, aged gracefully and has come far from her early days of a pop singer.  Her character is too dark visually to not have meanings.  I like her dark presence against Ji-Hoon's upright police detective.  Lee Yi Kyung gives me the same feel as Lee Je-Hoon in Signal.  There's a sense of realness, authenticity in his demeanor.

[bebebisous33]

@bedifferent It wasn't concluded that the boy killed in the hit-and-run was related to the mummified mother. Only the DNA from the girl with the green dress (end of the episode 4/8) showed that she was related to the mummy. However, he could be her son, since the sister was hidden. 

 

Thanks a lot for your observation. I didn't see the connection between the way they were killed and the life of the neglected children.

Like you, I also think that SW has the same ability than CWK and it is related to his sister. 

 

As for the lepers from the poem: The lepers can be seen as the parents who "ate" their children = killed them. However, the fact that they are lepers could be interpreted like this: the parents are themselves suffering. In the past, lepers were outcast and feared, no one would help them. The indifference and ignorance are the reasons why such things happen: abused and neglected children. So the lepers could be seen as victims too. Remember that the third deceased was herself a victim: she had no family, had been raped and had to obey the pervert. I am sure that she was forced to keep her children hidden. However, the mastermind (Red Cry) sees the lepers differently, he considers them as monsters, as sick and bad people who should be outcast and even erased.  

[partyon]

3 hours ago, bedifferent said:

 

enjoyed Que Sera Sera so signed on for the writer here as well. Good drama, hope that you get to watch it soon.^^

 

´+1 Que Sera, Sera is an old drama but oh, so gripping!

Quote

Just wanted to say Ji-hoon's fear of having a child may not be tied to commitment as his ex-GF thought, more due to his family history perhaps.  He turned out to be quite a good person, fair minded, even tempered and chose a profession of public service to help others.  Genuine and thoughtful in character as compared to other in the police station.  I think this is the case where his personality or maybe someone in his past helped him down the right path.  The scene in the elevator when he met his ex-GF shows a man who is clingy to a failed relationship, out of guilt - yes, but def more to his story too yeah?  He looks like a child guilty of wrongdoings, trying to win back the love of a parent.

I strongly suspect Ji-hoon having been abused / neglected as a child. A person who is clingy, but is scared to love is a red flag for a person who was abandoned as a child. The abandonment could have been physical, or it could have been psychological (a narcissistic parent, an alcoholic parent, a parent with mental health issues, etc). Both equally harmful for the development of the child.

Also, CWK saw the girl in the green dress right before Ji-hoon appeared, which would mean that he was abused as a child (if my theory about the girl being a premonition for spotting abused kids is correct).

 

2 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

As for the lepers from the poem: The lepers can be seen as the parents who "ate" their children = killed them. However, the fact that they are lepers could be interpreted like this: the parents are themselves suffering. In the past, lepers were outcast and feared, no one would help them. The indifference and ignorance are the reasons why such things happen: abused and neglected children. So the lepers could be seen as victims too.

However, the mastermind (Red Cry) sees the lepers differently, he considers them as monsters, as sick and bad people who should be outcast and even erased.  

Yes, I 100% agree to this. Lepers were feared and they suffered immensely by being outcast. And so do the parents who are abusers. A stable person would never harm their child - only people who suffer would harm their offspring. Yes, the parents are victims too. It is unbelievably sad that a parent would abuse their child, but the parent cannot help him- or herself as he/she is dictated by his/her  emotions (and not by logical reasoning). The parent is broken inside and is trying to escape the pain he/she feels. Instead of having tools to deal with the pain constructively, the parents lack them and are forced to resort to models they were taught by their caregivers. And so it goes on for generations, until someone is willing to face the pain and learn how to deal with their emotions in a healthy manner.

 

In the poem referenced in the killings there was a line:

"Tears as red as a flower falls at night"

 

Maybe this is a reference to "Red Cry"? My guess is that it refers to crying tears of blood. When you have cried so much that tears turn into blood. But is it the child who was "eaten" by the leper who is crying or is it the leper that cries? The poem:

By the sun and the light of the sky,

the leper grows sorrow

When the moon rises above the barley field

A child is eaten

Tears as red as a flower falls at night

 

If it means that the leper is crying, could that mean that "Red Cry" is actually an abuser....?

 

 

[bebebisous33]

11 hours ago, partyon said:

´Yes, I 100% agree to this. Lepers were feared and they suffered immensely by being outcast. And so do the parents who are abusers. A stable person would never harm their child - only people who suffer would harm their offspring. Yes, the parents are victims too. It is unbelievably sad that a parent would abuse their child, but the parent cannot help him- or herself as he/she is dictated by his/her  emotions (and not by logical reasoning). The parent is broken inside and is trying to escape the pain he/she feels. Instead of having tools to deal with the pain constructively, the parents lack them and are forced to resort to models they were taught by their caregivers. And so it goes on for generations, until someone is willing to face the pain and learn how to deal with their emotions in a healthy manner.

 

In the poem referenced in the killings there was a line:

"Tears as red as a flower falls at night"

 

Maybe this is a reference to "Red Cry"? My guess is that it refers to crying tears of blood. When you have cried so much that tears turn into blood. But is it the child who was "eaten" by the leper who is crying or is it the leper that cries? The poem:

By the sun and the light of the sky,

the leper grows sorrow

When the moon rises above the barley field

A child is eaten

Tears as red as a flower falls at night

 

If it means that the leper is crying, could that mean that "Red Cry" is actually an abuser....?

 

The mastermind is "Red Cry" and he is definitely related to the poem.

Yes, it is definitely possible that Red Cry is an abuser. However I think that he was abused and neglected in his childhood hence he resents abusive parents so much. As he suffered himself a lot due to them, he has become abusive himself which reinforced his resent towards "abusive parents". He is seeking a way to feel less guilty and blames others in order to improve his own self-esteem. He is a sort of avenger hence his "crimes" can be redeemed. 

 

@bedifferent CWK was more vindictive in the beginning in my opinion. She wished the mother to die. She judged the mother too quickly from my point of view. Like JH had said, she had paid her sins. Killing someone is not right... Nevertheless, I feel that CWK's mind is changing. She is less principled, she cared for the mummified mother, although she saw that there was a child hidden and the mother didn't help (on the surface). Meeting the "ex-husband" made her realize how pitiful this woman was. CWK not only cared for the missing child, she felt empathy for the woman. She saw what kind of fate this woman had: she was herself an abandoned child, a child of nobody.

To me, JH has been the only sensitive one from the start: not judging too harshly and condescending. He saw that even an ex-convict is a human after all. All humans have the same value. So maybe when he was abused in the past, he didn't resent "his mother" too much as he knew that she was struggling herself. In the end, both will fight for the right justice: stop Red Cry and give these neglected children some justice.

 

 

[howling]

So the last episodes let us know that there is definitely a mastermind behind the deaths. I wonder if they'll turn out to be someone we know or someone new will be introduced. I'm honestly fine with any of the outcomes as long as they will handle it correctly. Also if it's the option 1 who are your main suspects are? I feel they r trying to set up driver guy as suspicious but I think it will be false lead or he's like second in command or smth as it's too obvious. I think CWK's mom and sis are hella shady (seriously what's up with her? did you see her blinking that was creeepy af), also there was a hint that CWK herself is not a reliable narrator. Another thing is that I remembered 'Broadchurch' (spoilers if you havent seen it and plan to) so there's a possibility that main character's husband is the mastermind but that's just my guess

[akiera]

2 hours ago, howling said:

So the last episodes let us know that there is definitely a mastermind behind the deaths. I wonder if they'll turn out to be someone we know or someone new will be introduced. I'm honestly fine with any of the outcomes as long as they will handle it correctly. Also if it's the option 1 who are your main suspects are? I feel they r trying to set up driver guy as suspicious but I think it will be false lead or he's like second in command or smth as it's too obvious. I think CWK's mom and sis are hella shady (seriously what's up with her? did you see her blinking that was creeepy af), also there was a hint that CWK herself is not a reliable narrator. Another thing is that I remembered 'Broadchurch' (spoilers if you havent seen it and plan to) so there's a possibility that main character's husband is the mastermind but that's just my guess

For me, a lot of people are suspicious here except maybe Ji Heon. Actually, I am afraid to take his name in this again and again for jinxing it. Almost all other characters are suspicious and there are at least one or two instances linking each of them to the cases. Thinking about the writer's previous work, it is not even surprising. They could introduce a new character or it could be a lot of characters coming together. N could very well be involved in this because of his knowing smile, avoiding of ji heon, the conversation he had with Si wan and the way he looks at CWK. But the actor seems too amature to take a full-on villain role. But who knows drama world has provided us with a lot of surprises before.

[dhplsa]

11 hours ago, howling said:

So the last episodes let us know that there is definitely a mastermind behind the deaths. I wonder if they'll turn out to be someone we know or someone new will be introduced. I'm honestly fine with any of the outcomes as long as they will handle it correctly. Also if it's the option 1 who are your main suspects are? I feel they r trying to set up driver guy as suspicious but I think it will be false lead or he's like second in command or smth as it's too obvious. I think CWK's mom and sis are hella shady (seriously what's up with her? did you see her blinking that was creeepy af), also there was a hint that CWK herself is not a reliable narrator. Another thing is that I remembered 'Broadchurch' (spoilers if you havent seen it and plan to) so there's a possibility that main character's husband is the mastermind but that's just my guess

 

I have ruled out JH and N(can't seem to remember his character's name) for now actually. N seem to care a lot for kids in my opinion but lets see what happens. Also curious abt Nam Gyuri's character, especially when she continuously beat up the suspect and JH had to stop her. I recall him warning her not to act like previously or something like that anyway. 

 

Does anyone have any live stream links for the upcoming episode? 

[bebebisous33]

I don't think that CWK is the culprit as well. I have more the impression that he is using her name and connection (see the organization she created against the mother who had burnt her child). The mastermind might try to frame her.

[disembody]

first time i'm ever writing on a forum here but i'm so like enamored by the story and trying to figure it out....

 

so i hope the show continues on the path it's going because it's very good. only 4 (8) eps and we all know things can go downhill but im praying and hoping not. everything is solid and even someone who doesn't stand out as much acting wise (nam gyuri...she's not bad at all tho) still helps the story.

 

i think the thing to remember about the poem is that, as i think other users have stated, the leper believes that eating the child will help them. but both the leper and the child suffer as well. there's been many hints about parenting and parenthood, yes but i think mothering, motherhood, and matriarchal responsibilities are also a heavy theme. 

 

cwk is berated by her AWFUL terrible no good husband for daring to be sad and debilitated because of depression for the multiple horrors she's gone through--a normal reaction--and saying she ignores him and her child. he constantly brings that up. she also takes her job very seriously and you get a sense when the daughter was "lost" that because she wasn't there (even though the grandma was supposed to pick her up) it's one of those motherly duties she didn't fulfill. i think that's a major part to this story. so yes the third victim wasn't a perpetrator at all and she was innocent--another leper in the sense--but also the women who are struggling and aren't being heard. it's no coincidence it surrounds women and children with conflicting ideals brought on from patriarchy. 

 

cwk may have a personality disorder but that comes out of being traumatized. it's hard to be someone who won't have lasting mental affects of multiple traumas. there's no doubt in my mind the mom is abusive or at least incredibly toxic; if an adult child was like that with their parent that would be alarming. i don't think this show is going the supernatural root but rather hallucinations/delusions from trauma and those hallucinations/delusions for both her and si wan are themselves? and manifesting as other people to help cope (kinda like in that one krn horror movie tale of two sisters)

 

anyway the themes about motherhood, parenting, loss, trauma etc are really well woven into the mystery and i think that's why i'm not frustrated with not getting answers (although i hope it doesn't become too convoluted for no reason) because we are getting a lot of emotional depth whilst figuring things out. they're human which makes things seem real instead of unecessarily melodramatic. and the use of music is really good in this too generally i think someitmes it's excessive and not thought out...the editing(Visually) isn't my style and i think it's a bit quick but i think everything does favors for the story. i do personally think some scenes are majorly underlit but a computer screen isn't always the best way to watch something, i will admit.

[disembody]

On 12/2/2018 at 3:36 PM, bebebisous33 said:

 

@bedifferent CWK was more vindictive in the beginning in my opinion. She wished the mother to die. She judged the mother too quickly from my point of view. Like JH had said, she had paid her sins. Killing someone is not right... Nevertheless, I feel that CWK's mind is changing. She is less principled, she cared for the mummified mother, although she saw that there was a child hidden and the mother didn't help (on the surface). Meeting the "ex-husband" made her realize how pitiful this woman was. CWK not only cared for the missing child, she felt empathy for the woman. She saw what kind of fate this woman had: she was herself an abandoned child, a child of nobody.

To me, JH has been the only sensitive one from the start: not judging too harshly and condescending. He saw that even an ex-convict is a human after all. All humans have the same value. So maybe when he was abused in the past, he didn't resent "his mother" too much as he knew that she was struggling herself. In the end, both will fight for the right justice: stop Red Cry and give these neglected children some justice.

 

 

 

I agree...and also she has now become a murderer unintentionally. i think the point of the first woman and cwk's reluctance shows us a lot of things: parenting is difficult, motherhood is difficult, what brings a mother to kill their child? in the third case, the abusive parent hurts both the daughter and the mother. there's a lot of stuff we don't understand or no. we have no clue why the woman killed her child or why any of these children have been abandoned and what a homeless 20-something was doing with a child in an attic.

 

humans do have the same value but i also don't extend sympathy to the death of an abuser. and what JH said about the the man that died in his car: this is a lesson to not become the type of person whose body won't be claimed. interesting/powerful stuff!!!

[twin-twin]

As a fan of N, i also question whether he is the villain, Red Cry or not, despite being a fan i admit he's green. But then i remember he was actually cast in a lead role of a Psychological-Thriller "Interview" Musical twice (last year & last month,Oct.) he got good reviews for the role. In that role he plays Sinclair w/c has multiple personality disorder (5 personalities), i forgot the details of the personalities but one of them is a killer (?) and his alcoholic father. The reason why i'm 50/50 of him being a villain was also the fact that he accept this drama, right after this musical  so who knows, after all this writer makes everyone suspicious in Achiara and the killer might just right in front of our nose, might also pulled of a red herring that's not actually a red herring. 

So for me it's N or Kim SunAh for now, they are just too suspicious.

Spoiler

 

If this was a film or novel i would definitely watch/read this.. the poster and synopsis in enticing

[mrsj3n]

16 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

I don't think that CWK is the culprit as well. I have more the impression that he is using her name and connection (see the organization she created against the mother who had burnt her child). The mastermind might try to frame her.

 

That's the thing I don't get it.

Everyone somehow or rather has some connections with CWK and it's too much of a coincidence.

 

My heart can't take my favourite actress as a villian. 

[akiera]

7 hours ago, twin-twin said:

As a fan of N, i also question whether he is the villain, Red Cry or not, despite being a fan i admit he's green. But then i remember he was actually cast in a lead role of a Psychological-Thriller "Interview" Musical twice (last year & last month,Oct.) he got good reviews for the role. In that role he plays Sinclair w/c has multiple personality disorder (5 personalities), i forgot the details of the personalities but one of them is a killer (?) and his alcoholic father. The reason why i'm 50/50 of him being a villain was also the fact that he accept this drama, right after this musical  so who knows, after all this writer makes everyone suspicious in Achiara and the killer might just right in front of our nose, might also pulled of a red herring that's not actually a red herring. 

So for me it's N or Kim SunAh for now, they are just too suspicious.

  Hide contents

 

 

If this was a film or novel i would definitely watch/read this.. the poster and synopsis in enticing

 

He has the face of a puppy-faced psychopath. Reminds me of Park Bogum in I remember you. Was that park bogum's first lead role??

[howling]

27 minutes ago, akiera said:

He has the face of a puppy-faced psychopath. Reminds me of Park Bogum in I remember you. Was that park bogum's first lead role??

1

Man I love puppy-faced psychopaths, and Bogum's character in I remember you was so good, I wouldn't mind another one here

[AlexandraReid]

new still cuts: #KimSunAh #LeeYiKyung

 

 

Spoiler

 

[dhplsa]

Is anyone watching the live stream?

[dhplsa]

Just finished watching the latest episode. Can't wait to come back here tmr to discuss!!

[AlexandraReid]

bts

 

 

[181205] #N Twitter

 

 

 

im still confused whether he's (eunho) gonna endup as good or a bad character, can anyone enlighten me? 

[bebebisous33]

@disembody Welcome to this forum and thread!

Well, after watching the latest episode, I have to change my mind about CWK. She really thinks that the mother deserved to die as she neglected her daughter. She sent her outside and look into the trash aso. She somehow "praises" the mastermind but I can not agree with her at all. Even if the mother didn't treat her daughter properly like an average mother, we shouldn't forget that LSH was herself an orphan and learnt through the hard way that no one will help her and everyone is on his own. She never experienced any good parenting therefore how can we expect from her to become a good parent? Cry River is treating every "parent" neglecting their child the same, yet the husband was the murderer in the first case, in the third case the husband never acknowledged his child and abandoned her. And here is the question: how will the mother treat her daughter in the long run after losing her husband and not getting the insurance money?

@mrsj3n @bedifferent Now, we have a new element about CWK's life: her actual mother is not her biological mother but her stepmother. She married her father, when she was 6 or 7 years old.

[mrsj3n]

@bebebisous33

 

Still waiting for the subtitles... Will be back on my thoughts later.

 

But..... I'm still hoping that CWK is not the ultimate villian here.