[Drama 2018-2019] Children of Nobody/Red Moon, Blue Sun, 붉은달 푸른해

[liddi]

On 1/12/2019 at 2:59 PM, ellelyana88 said:

The one in dark blue dress was the stepmom.

It's the same dress the stepmom wears when WK's was hypnotized at the end of ep. 15. 

@ellelyana88 Are you referring to the dress the stepmother wore when she dragged little CSK up the stairs?

If so, I beg to differ.

The one who pushed little CSK was wearing a one-piece blue dress with checquered skirt. I have not seen the stepmother wearing any outfit like that in any of the flashbacks.

During CWK's hypnosis, the stepmother was wearing a dark blue buttoned blouse with a plain black skirt.

Unless you are referring to another dress she wore in a different scene?

 

 

 

@cyan5tarlight I won't know either whether YTJ did try to provide LEH with therapy - it is possible that he did, but perhaps in both brothers' minds, the crimes committed against LEH was too great to be healed with just therapy alone. Perhaps that very act of vengeance was felt to be what is necessary for LEH to finally heal and move on. If so, I don't believe YTJ expected LEH to just deal with it by himself. The meticulous plan appears to be something that both of them were working in collaboration - destroying the center financially and by reputation, before delivering the final judgment. Remember how Director Song complained that it was impossible for the center to run with the police swarming around the place all the time. Bear in mind too that time and again, especially when Red Cry was taunting the police, LEH had an ironclad alibi - when the police were tracing the phone which ended up being delivered to the police station, LEH was caught on CCTV working in the garden; when Red Cry picked up the parcel on 21 Dec, LEH was with Sora and her mother at the time, watching a show. So no. I don't think YTJ planned for LEH to ever be convicted as Red Cry. The provision of alibis hint strongly at that. What I think happened is LEH realised KJH would never give up the hunt for Red Cry, and so he took matters into his own hands after he exacted his revenge by leaving clear evidence in the last crime, and freely confessing to all the previous ones, before taking all the secrets he wanted to protect with him to the grave. I believe LEH hoped to throw KJH off his brother's trail, thus enabling him to continue his crusade of saving children from abuse - one which he endorsed and believed in himself.

 

@mushforbrains I love Hakyeon's "The Edge" too - actually the soundtracks collectively are so evocative and memorable, and all of them have on repeat on my playlist for weeks now. I am eagerly waiting the release of the instrumental soundtrack as well - so haunting, poignant, unforgettable. Hopefully it will be available soon.

[liddi]

It always breaks my heart to see how desperately KJH tries to resuscitate his beloved... though it is obvious he never received a single day of proper training in his entire life 

 

[cyan5tarlight]

@liddi

 

Hmmm... I'm not completely convinced, but you do make a pretty compelling argument, especially with the provision of rock-solid alibis indicating that Eunho was being looked after, at least initially, by whoever was running the organization. The only thing I can't figure out now is why Eunho kept making excuses for Director Song when Wookyung found him beating the tar out of Eunho. "He's like an uncle or older brother," he said. "But he's not a bad person, he just gets angry sometimes." If he already had an older brother figure in his life that he could compare and contrast the director with, then why did he keep making excuses for him? Why couldn't he recognize the abusive behavior for what it was until the director essentially left him to rot in prison? That could just be the nature of abuse, I suppose, especially abuse from someone one's grown up with, but from my understanding, it's much easier to break the cycle when you have other good relationships to show you just how bad the one you're currently in is. So if Eunho had YTJ in his life at that point, and his brother was actually being a decent human being to him, then why did he still accept all the abuse lying down? Why did he seem so absolutely bewildered when Wookyung expressed concern for him, bandaging his wounds and telling him to report the director to the police? It's like he'd never had anyone show him a modicum of of that sort of kindness to him before, and he didn't quite know what to do with it.

 

And speaking of Wookyung, I'm preeeeetty sure Eunho likely knew exactly what YTJ had planned for her. So why then would he choose to kill her, knowing that YTJ would probably try to get her to remember her past, just like he likely did with him? Was that the one thing he drew the line at? Knowing that someone else would be in as much agony as he himself was in if his brother continued as planned in order to recruit her, so he was like "Over my dead body" and took matters into his own hands when the opportunity presented itself to do the one thing he could think of to try to save her? I'm really curious to see what the answer to this is, if YTJ has wanted to bring Wookyung into the fold for a long time, to which Eunho vehemently disagreed, or if trying to recruit her is something he came up with after his brother died because he's likely to join him soon and someone needs to continue their work?

 

Guess we'll just have to wait and see how everything ends up playing out one way or another, and what YTJ true intentions were all along; whether he did truly care about his brother's plight, or was just using him like everyone else. I really have absolutely no idea how they're going to wrap everything up in a single hour, though, and answer all our questions satisfactorily.  Just please don't leave us on a cliffhanger, writer-nim, please, I beg of you, I don't think my heart could take a cliffhanger ending.

[liddi]

@cyan5tarlight Yes it'll be interesting to see how everything gets wrapped up in one short hour. Rather than being proven right or wrong, I am the most concerned that it will be a rushed job, with strings left hanging in the air. The finale of Achiara's Secret, though arguably the strongest and most emotionally resonant of the entire series, also suffered from unanswered questions and inconceivable plotholes. I really really hope that Children of Nobody will not suffer the same fate. Kim Sun Ah's wish for a second season already has me prepared for an open ending of sorts, but please, please give us some form of closure for the arcs that have gripped us since day one. 

 

That being said, I do have some gripes over how the narrative appear to have panned out so far. The wicked stepmother angle is one that is overused since time immemorial, and feels a convenient choice to villify yet again here. I hope there is more to what we have seen thus far, but with just an hour to go, I am afraid that it will turn out that way after all. Likewise, I spoke of this before but I fear that the script will not dare to make LEH culpable, content to just stay within the fringes of safety in making him an abused child who finally took revenge on his abuser. Will Red Cry be totally demonised in the end as well, or will we see him as a figure of ambiguity whose moral compass has been skewed due to outrage of what he has seen first hand? Let us see if the script will dare take the route less travelled after all.

[Ellander88]

4 hours ago, liddi said:

@ellelyana88 Are you referring to the dress the stepmother wore when she dragged little CSK up the stairs?

If so, I beg to differ.

The one who pushed little CSK was wearing a one-piece blue dress with checquered skirt. I have not seen the stepmother wearing any outfit like that in any of the flashbacks.

During CWK's hypnosis, the stepmother was wearing a dark blue buttoned blouse with a plain black skirt.

Unless you are referring to another dress she wore in a different scene?

 

@liddi  I change my statement. You are right, the one in checkered skirt was not her stepmom, but it was WK.

So, like you, I wonder whether it was production error (after looking at the screenshots you attached), since they have to shoot the scene again for WK's whole recollection of her memory in episode 15, whereas the scene where the checkered skirt pushing little SK was far back in episode 6. Hence, the different attire.  

To confirm this, I went back to that similar scene where the stepmom ripped the green dress in episode 9. 

Yes, even the stepmom blouse and skirt was different than in episode 15. You can see from the screen captures below:

 

EPISODE 9:

Stepmom wears flare skirt and there looks like a ribbon on the blouse's wrist. 

 

 

 

 

 

EPISODE 15:

But in episode 15, stepmom wears slit pencil (?) skirt

 

 

 

 

 

And no ribbon on the wrist.

 

 

 

 

CONCLUSION:  

Production error. Because that particular scene was shot separately.

They possibly have to return the dress to the sponsor after shooting that scene in earlier episode.

 

Hence, the girl  in checkered skirt that pushed little SK was WK. 

 

 

 

 

[ktcjdrama]

31 minutes ago, ellelyana88 said:

CONCLUSION:  

Production error. Because that particular scene was shot separately.

They possibly have to return the dress to the sponsor after shooting that scene in earlier episode.

 

Hence, the girl  in checkered skirt that pushed little SK was WK. 

Wow... if this is really production error, it's really a bad one...

Not only did the stepmom wear different blouse and skirt, even in the full flashback in ep.15, the stepmom came running with white slippers, but she was approaching SK wearing socks and long skirt. No show of the hand reaching out... Then WK was wearing brown top, instead of checkered skirt...

 

It's just so strange to shoot such scenes separately. It's not easy working with children actors, I would think they shoot the scene in entirety and edit out snippets for us from the full shot. Wouldn't that be easier??

[Ellander88]

55 minutes ago, ktcjdrama said:

It's just so strange to shoot such scenes separately. It's not easy working with children actors, I would think they shoot the scene in entirety and edit out snippets for us from the full shot. Wouldn't that be easier??

 

Because the script usually given in phases. Usually when they starts filming, four episodes are given first. Then next phase would also in four or at least two episodes. 

Only the writer know what will happen, how the story unravels. 

Even the director and production team know about the plot only after they receive the script.

So, if the similar scene from far back episode to be shot again, the supporting / extras probably have difficulty to get the same clothes again.

In the script, young WK and young stepmom could be written as extras. But, apparently their scenes were all significant fragments of WK's memories, thus, avid viewers like us would question on any discrepancies in the scene they appeared in. 

I have seen other dramas where the extras did such significant scene, once as fragments of memory/flashbacks, then another one a full recollection of memory or confession, but there seems to be some inconsistencies in terms of their attires. 

Usually, the production focus more on the main characters' attires to be aligned with the scenes in the script. 

 

 

EDIT:

BTW, now that you mentioned it, I just realized about the socks and slippers!

OMG! That's a huge error for me because it's in the same episode! 

Even the skirt kinda looks different. It looks shorter when she dragged little SK. LOL!

 

 

 

[celebrianna]

This drama is so good. In any crime story what engages me the most is not so much who did it but the way the story unfolds to reveal the answers to the mysteries of who did it. This show has done an amazing job on that front while still delivering an emotionally engaging story of child abuse and domestic abuse in the home. The latter two crimes always enrages me so it’s kind of conflicting to watch this show because the abusers do make me experience irrational feelings of “they deserve to die” but ultimately I still cannot support the intentional murder of a human being for any reason. 

 

I also really enjoyed the way WK’s past and SW’s past were revealed in this week’s episodes. They are indeed sort of similar. Seeing SW confess that he began to doubt the truth of how his sister truly died was so heart wrenching. He’s just a little boy. The kids in this show has been through too much already. 

[liddi]

@ellelyana88 @ktcjdrama Thanks to your sharp eyes, I guess it's confirmed it is due to production error after all. Which makes me wonder whether the reshoots could also have been due to a change in the mind of the scriptwriter with regards to CWK's past? Either way, it is unfortunate to see such discrepancies. Does anyone know whether filming is completed, or are they still shooting for the final episode?

 

Can't shake the hollow feeling inside me now... is now the right time to chant for Season 2?

[kumakumo]

14 hours ago, cyan5tarlight said:

Who would try to "brainwash" Eunho to believe something like that? Could it be none other than his own brother, YTJ, so that it would be easier to manipulate him into doing what he wanted? "You're dirty, filthy, disgusting, broken, good for nothing except cleaning out the trash of society, while I on the other hand shall be the angel of mercy to these poor victims and lift them out of their life of poverty and abuse." YTJ might have tried to set up a "two sides of the same coin" kind of deal, where he plays the aforesaid angel of mercy to Eunho's angel of death (even though he might have also carried out some of the murders himself, that remains to be seen). Hence why Eunho might have been the one to take the fall for Red Cry and become the scapegoat for all their crimes. A poor, no name handyman is much easier to demonize and sweep under the rug than a respected and venerated psychiatrist who is just healing those who need it out of the goodness of his heart.

I'm glad you were intrigued by that line (hobakky here!). I do believe that EH has been brainwashed, but not quite what you're thinking. I have a very long explanation for this, but the short version of the theory I'm trying to pique people's interest in is the idea that EH is actually a not entirely willing pawn acting at the hand of his brother's emotional/psychological manipulation that made him think murdering was what a "good person" would do.

 

When I looked back on a lot of previous moments in this drama, I realized that the writer has been placing continuous clues that we interpreted one way, but may actually have a hidden meaning. Many of them stem from EH's conversations with JH.

 

In ep 27 after SY tells JH to get trauma therapy JH has a series of flashbacks of comments EH had told him. "Why do you want to catch him?", "Who is it that you want to catch?", "You keep saying 'normal', but what exactly is normal?", "Police will always suspect me first because i'm an uneducated orphan without a decent job.", and "It must be nice for everything to be so clear-cut for you. You won't have anything to worry about."

 

The easiest clues that we missed are the normal and orphan comments. These were hints pointing right to his brother, the psychologist Tae Joo. TJ is the exact opposite of what EH described since he was adopted, has the highest educational degree possible, and has one of the most highly thought of jobs in the world- a doctor. However, as EH pointed out the police and public will never suspect TJ cause he seems so normal. Instead, it is much easier for everyone to draw conclusions that the "abnormal" orphan would become a criminal just because of their different/sad upbringing making EH the ideal scapegoat. It's becoming clear now that TJ is the real abnormal one since he displays many characteristics of a psychopath, such as not even blinking at the news of his only blood relative dying to protect him..

 

The second set of clues here is EH's repetitive questioning of exactly who JH wanted to catch and when JH responded "the real one" EH tells him " The real (one) I hope you catch him." Notably, EH never actually said "the real criminal", he only said 진짜 (real) and when I looked up alternative definitions for 잡다 (catch) one of them was "to find out or discover a clue, the point, evidence, etc..." So I think this conversation was basically EH's way of asking JH whether he just wants a criminal to put behind bars or if he wants to know the whole hidden truth. I also think it was a test for JH since the two of them have bad blood between them due to JH previously closing the Boy A case without knowing the whole truth behind it and allowing EH to be the (reluctantly let free) scapegoat before. I believe EH ended things when he did because he trusted JH wouldn't make the same mistake this time and would ensure that he gets the full story, even if he already has a culprit to close the case with.

 

The third clue here was the kicker for me. Why would EH feel that things are clear-cut for JH and be jealous of it? I doubt this was merely a throwaway sarcastic "what would you know? your life is perfect" kind of comment. Clearly he's admitting that something is agonizing him because he's conflicted about it. I originally thought he was merely referring to the predicament of being abused by the head director yet not being able to fully hate him because he's his only family, but that was before we knew that EH actually does have another family. Why would he have conflicting feelings about hating the director when he's been working with his blood brother to kill people just like the director? Perhaps it's because deep down he's not fully convinced that killing is the right thing to do.

 

It makes sense that EH would be jealous of JH since, as a police officer, JH's moral compass is clear- if it's against the law it's wrong. But EH has been going against the law under the impression that what he was doing was the true moral thing to do. Isn't that why, of all things, he wears a "Good Person" mask when he's acting as Red Cry? His guilt suicide is proof though that he wasn't fully buying his own justification for his actions, which means that someone else must have lured him into believing he was doing the right thing despite his conscience saying otherwise.

 

I'm convinced Tae Joo intentionally brought up those traumatic memories and then used anger to brainwash EH into becoming a henchman to do all his dirty work for him, especially since he's following a similar pattern with WK now by fueling her anger towards her stepmom. EH even warned WK before that remembering will make her turn out like him. His insistence that he wanted to save her didn't make sense to me at the time because it went against his previous actions. If he thought being able to remember the abuse would make you a murderer, why not kill the previous children as well? Therefore, he must have known then that TJ was going to try grooming WK into a murderer just as he did to him.

 

There's a couple of other things that also suggest EH's relationship with his brother wasn't the healthiest and that things we thought applied to his relationship with the director were actually parallels to his relationship with his brother. For instance, when WK told him the head director's son said for him to fess up and he'll get him a good lawyer his face got super dark and he told her that someone else once warned him against his way of thinking saying, "what good is considering someone family if they don't think the same of you? They just brainwash you so they can use you." I'm pretty sure that someone else was his brother and that those were the words he used to first lure EH into becoming Red Cry a la "I'm your real family so you can trust me." But I think this moment where WK asks him flat out if he's willing to let himself become a murderer just to please someone else is his epiphany/breaking point because that's exactly what he did.

 

The even more telling line is his response when JH asked him why he took the fall. He quoted WK's line about how once a relationship has been cemented you can't break out of it, no matter how much you want to. Then he critically adds "even if you meet again after growing older, some things never change." I think it makes total sense that as his only living family member, EH would always feel inclined to stick up for and trust in TJ. Just as children think of their parents as their universe, EH probably had a similar reverence for TJ and believed that, even if he had niggling doubts in the back of his mind, surely his brother would be the one person he could have total faith in to not lead him astray. But the tragedy is his brother's words came true after all- once again he was the only one that thought of the other as family and was brainwashed and used. It's no wonder he's only comfortable with kids. They're probably the only ones he can count on to not betray him.

 

In the end, I think EH is going to end up becoming an example of a victim of the abuse trifecta: sexual, physical, and emotional.

[twin-twin]

 

 

 

[liddi]

@kumakumo Thank you for your in-depth analysis into LEH and YTJ's relationship. If what you say is true, LEH is indeed the most pitiable of all the victims we have seen in the entire drama, abused and used by every single person he trusted in his young life. And the irony that YTJ as Red Cry is the worst abuser/hypocrite is not lost on me if this turns out to be the case.

 

That being said, I'm probably in the extreme minority but I hope it does not pan out that way. I said this before and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll say it again. I wonder if there is reluctance/fear on the part of the script to show the extreme actions of Red Cry, while not morally and legally correct, but to be understandable. Is it easier ultimately to thoroughly demonise the mastermind rather than give him a morally ambiguous, yet perhaps humane, sympathetic angle? I found this too with the case of LEH - is there unwillingness to make him anything other than a total victim driven by circumstances? I don't know... Life is not black and white, so it seems overly simplistic to paint the characters in that way. Ah well... just my 2 cents.

 

However it pans out in the end, I really really hope it will be a finale that is a fitting finish to the amazing drama that it has been so far. And that they are already planning a 2nd season even as we speak.

[bedifferent]

On 1/5/2019 at 3:32 AM, bedifferent said:

 My hope is that he did not suffer in vain for another person’s vendetta.

 

My fear has Eunho being the knife for some puppet master.  If this is not the case.  If he did it with full knowledge that his actions are questionable and driven partly by loyalty to EunTae yet he went ahead for the sake of saving the children, would this put him into a grey zone. @liddi @cyan5tarlight what do you think?  I could be sympathetic to his conflicts, doesn't mean I would agree with his decisions.  

 

2 hours ago, kumakumo said:

I'm convinced Tae Joo intentionally brought up those traumatic memories and then used anger to brainwash EH into becoming a henchman to do all his dirty work for him, especially since he's following a similar pattern with WK now by fueling her anger towards her stepmom. EH even warned WK before that remembering will make her turn out like him. His insistence that he wanted to save her didn't make sense to me at the time because it went against his previous actions. If he thought being able to remember the abuse would make you a murderer, why not kill the previous children as well? Therefore, he must have known then that TJ was going to try grooming WK into a murderer just as he did to him.

 

There's a couple of other things that also suggest EH's relationship with his brother wasn't the healthiest and that things we thought applied to his relationship with the director were actually parallels to his relationship with his brother. For instance, when WK told him the head director's son said for him to fess up and he'll get him a good lawyer his face got super dark and he told her that someone else once warned him against his way of thinking saying, "what good is considering someone family if they don't think the same of you? They just brainwash you so they can use you." I'm pretty sure that someone else was his brother and that those were the words he used to first lure EH into becoming Red Cry a la "I'm your real family so you can trust me." But I think this moment where WK asks him flat out if he's willing to let himself become a murderer just to please someone else is his epiphany/breaking point because that's exactly what he did.

 

The even more telling line is his response when JH asked him why he took the fall. He quoted WK's line about how once a relationship has been cemented you can't break out of it, no matter how much you want to. Then he critically adds "even if you meet again after growing older, some things never change." I think it makes total sense that as his only living family member, EH would always feel inclined to stick up for and trust in TJ. Just as children think of their parents as their universe, EH probably had a similar reverence for TJ and believed that, even if he had niggling doubts in the back of his mind, surely his brother would be the one person he could have total faith in to not lead him astray. But the tragedy is his brother's words came true after all- once again he was the only one that thought of the other as family and was brainwashed and used. It's no wonder he's only comfortable with kids. They're probably the only ones he can count on to not betray him.

 

In the end, I think EH is going to end up becoming an example of a victim of the abuse trifecta: sexual, physical, and emotional.

 

Welcome to the thread.  Thank you for the post.^^

 

At first run, I thought the talk about family and not breaking the bond meant to be about the Song father/son abuse, I can see how they can be interpreted as Eunho's feelings toward EunTae.  Interesting points that you've brought up.  Yes, one explanation for perpetuating the victimizing of Eunho is to continuously fuel his anger and his drive to continue RC's mission.  How awful and sad it is for Eunho if he did recognize himself being manipulated by his own brother while hoping for someone to stop him.  If is the case, it makes sense why Eunho looked defeated while confessing his killings to CWK in the car.  He didn't take ownership of the crimes with glee; was neither proud nor was he comfortable with his decision to kill.  He also did not  use the attention at the pier to announce his cause.  I thought it was strange then and still now.   

[liddi]

@bedifferent I agree. I think that LEH is conflicted about killing (and later his own detached reactions to the killings), but not enough to stop being a part of it because he believes it is for the greater good. However, I disagree that he did not take ownership of the crimes - his confession was him taking responsibility for the killings, though he questioned why he did not agonise over them the way Park Yong Tae did. As for not announcing his cause at the pier, could it be he felt his part was done and his only thought was to finally die and leave the hell he has been living in for so long, taking CWK with him so that she need not go through the same hell? Hopefully the finale will give a proper answer to all these questions...

[bedifferent]

3 minutes ago, liddi said:

 However, I disagree that he did not take ownership of the crimes - his confession was him taking responsibility for the killings, though he questioned why he did not agonise over them the way Park Yong Tae did. As for not announcing his cause at the pier, could it be he felt his part was done and his only thought was to finally die and leave the hell he has been living in for so long, taking CWK with him so that she need not go through the same hell? Hopefully the finale will give a proper answer to all these questions...

 

Oh i mean he didn't do it with glee, he sure did take ownership.  It was conflicted killing for the cause.  Thanks.

 

You could be right at why he didn't say anything at the pier.  Why do you think he needed an audience and called the police there then if it is just to put CWK out of misery, he could have done in private?  Just curious.

[liddi]

@bedifferent He needed the police to be there to properly put an end to their hunt for Red Cry. I don't believe CWK's presence in that standoff was ever planned - she just happened to walk in on him after he killed the old director, so he used that as yet another bait to escalate the police's pursuit of him as Red Cry, while determining too that she was one last victim he could save before he died. My two cents... 

[thistle]

I know that facts seem otherwise but I still can't accept that LEH did the murders.  I can't.  Yes, maybe the old director but that was a crime of passion and that can happen.  But the other murders, I just can't.

 

Although I've enjoyed this series, I'm kinda ready for it to be over.  It breaks my heart too much.

[liddi]

@thistle You might be vindicated in your convictions after all... as we have seen, the violence with which KJH was attacked (and by the same token, GSH and Siwan's father) seem at odds with LEH's character, so it is definitely possible that it turns out YTJ was the one who did all the killings, while LEH was only responsible for taking the child away to safety. 

 

It is a heartbreaking series... even more so the last episode when we see how little CSK was abused and finally met her end. Still, I am not quite ready to say good bye... have been trying to rewatch... but it has been a slow process thus far.

[0timelost]

This drama had my head spinning. 

 

Just throwing this idea out there, but do you think LEH's brother, Dr. Yoon, is abused as well? Could he have roped LEH into his plan by convincing him that they shared the same past and therefore, they should work together to protect others from danger? 

 

@ellelyana88I think RC knows CWK's story because he is also CWK's husband's friend. Dr. Yoon seemed to be very perceptive, and he probably heard from CWK's ex-husband about his concern, his mother-in-law's concern, and CWK's hallucination. He probably figured that the mother-in-law is suspicious because she has been sympathetic to the man who cheated on her daughter, while being harsh on her own daughter. I think he must have guessed something is wrong with the information that CWK and her ex-husband revealed. 

[bedifferent]

1 hour ago, thistle said:

I know that facts seem otherwise but I still can't accept that LEH did the murders.  I can't.  Yes, maybe the old director but that was a crime of passion and that can happen.  But the other murders, I just can't.

 

It’s hard esp since the killing continued after his death so he might not be the only killer in the past.  It seems like the person who beat up JH could be the one with the physicality to kill Siwan’s father and subdue Hana’s bulky dad.