[Drama 2018] Happy If You Died/ Feel Good to Die, 죽어도 좋아

[phoenix24]

6 minutes ago, selenette said:

In Japanese, Mandarin, Korean (obviously), and some English. So four, actually, but he's not that fluent in English.

I thought he barely knew English because in the video I saw he was just smiling at fans in LA and letting the translator do the rest. 

 

With so much left to do, I know that the next two episodes will definitely be interesting and fast paced.  It so bittersweet.  Can't wait to see it, but will miss it so much once it is over.

 

[selenette]

30 minutes ago, phoenix24 said:

I thought he barely knew English because in the video I saw he was just smiling at fans in LA and letting the translator do the rest. 

 

With so much left to do, I know that the next two episodes will definitely be interesting and fast paced.  It so bittersweet.  Can't wait to see it, but will miss it so much once it is over.

 

He barely speaks English but knows enough to write simple sentences. He used to tweet in those four languages. 

 

Yes I can't hardly wait for Wednesday and Thursday, although I think I'd miss the show terribly. 

[nohamahamoud2002]

chingus I am beginning to miss you all so much already. I really hope we all meet in other threads.

[xprosperity]

7 hours ago, Nadia Muñoz said:

 

As we approach the final stretch I still think of the excellent actor who is kang ji hwan,

he deserves all the prizes that exist for this role!

he and the drama deserve more recognition from the fans, I will recommend it whenever I can

I definitely agree. He's a great actor (and a veteran one) so I expect prizes for him! He definitely deserves tons of recognition for the role, and it opened my eyes on a lot of things. The story speaks more than just simple romance and more about giving yourself and others second chances. And moreover, even if there's no second chances unlike the drama, it encourages people to "do it right" the first time around. I really love how he portrayed the role of Baek Jin Sang, and I look forward to all of his other upcoming works!

4 hours ago, nohamahamoud2002 said:

chingus I am beginning to miss you all so much already. I really hope we all meet in other threads.

Aww! Virtual hugs to you!  It's okay, we still have 4 episodes to go! (2 long ones...)

 

5 hours ago, selenette said:

In Japanese, Mandarin, Korean (obviously), and some English. So four, actually, but he's not that fluent in English.

That's still pretty impressive!  

[Kim Yunmi]

On 12/21/2018 at 9:51 PM, selenette said:

I beg to disagree with you again on your takes on the webtoon and the drama. 

 

*deleted above to make post shorter not because I didn't read it*

Some of it might be also that I also analyze the plot from an Asian plotting context a bit too, so I often look at the characters from realization rather than conflict-driven plot points. This is not to directly disagree with you, but to give some perspective of where I'm coming from. I'm detailing that understanding below not because I think you don't know it, so you are on the same page. Not as an insult to intelligence but more like to see where you are in understanding Asian plotting, characterizations, etc.

The plot structure does follow some of the conventions of a three act plot from Western PoV (drama) often with the episodes following it fairly closely with a 2-episode spread of the three act structure. (This is kinda typical for a lot of especially network, over cable dramas--cable tends to experiment a lot more with plot structures... for example, Another Oh Hae Yeong played heavily with the plot structure blending philosophies of Buddhism and Mugyo--the local shamanism into the plot structure. Also borrows heavily from what is called the Dream Record. Religion oddly does influence plot structure culturally quite a bit, but that's another dissertation for another time.)

But it also follows some of the plotting that would be familiar to Chinese Wuxia fans, the small local plots fold in together to become an epic plot. There are plenty of examples of this. Though for some reason I smell more of the Japanese flavor of this which is quite popular in the mysteries they tend to write. There are so many examples... I won't bother listing, but I will trust that you probably seen this plot structure already. (It's a bit less common in the US side, at least, though Doctor Who has done smaller scale versions of this UK side.) It's not Jo Ha Kyu.... not quite (People hate Jo Ha Kyu for the lack of endings, but again, Buddhism is influencing the plotline). I haven't found the official name for it yet.

There are also hints of the larger plot structure having Kishotenketsu, and I think this is where we are diverging here. Kishotenketsu I'll link up for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishōtenketsu

BTW, most Eurocentric-story-watching viewers complain that Kishotenketsu is not action-filled enough. It's too slow, and it demands too much attention to detail for them to get anything. But as a plot structure, it de-empahsizes a lot of the events--which means you don't really need conflict. It's not the first priority. Instead, characters and what they come to realize in their day to day lives comes first. Kishotentketsu, though really really sucks for things like action-filled stories. It's good for slice of life though.

The majority of the character development if you break character development into change (this can be permanent or temporary), realization (things already in their character the character realizes was always there--which is Roo-Da's whole can't stand to be silent in the face of injustice change. It's half realization, half change. Outlined again this episode...), background (family, history, etc) and evolution (permanent change), for most of the story is a realization rather than change/evolution standpoint. (This is different from Wants and Needs of character, which often can conflict with all of the above) Most Eurocentric-conflict-based stories follow a conflict-based character arc and look straight for evolution with the most amount of permanent change possible trying to cure every fault of the character, but personally, as an author, I really, really dislike this sole emphasis since you can do a whole lot more by stringing in things like realization, temporary changes, etc to make the story much more dynamic). I tend to favor a more realistic approach that characters WANT to change, not only due to circumstances, but for themselves and that all change is temporary, rather than evolutionary (But I clearly diverge strongly from a lot of European plotting conventions--I also play around a lot more with plotting structures). I find when the characters are change for a person only them, it's clunky... and you eliminate so many good story possibilities--its' not just bad characterization, it's terrible plotting too. But these days, a lot of Asian stories do more of the realization (which has roots, BTW in Buddhism). (This is much stronger in Japanese media, BTW, which has a lot less direct borrowing like my own Korea does--Korea has a long history of both straight up borrowing and then innovating. Metal Movable type, for example, is a really good example of this type of thing. Also the made up hanja Korea made instead of being like Japanese and taking traditional characters wholesale.).
 

 

Where I'm seeing Baek Jin Sang failing is probably because I'm expecting, like the rest of the plot structure to follow somewhat of the Kishotenketsu plotline. So if you take Baek Jin Sang from a pure conflict-based arc--I would totally agree with you. But I'm looking at the whole thrust of the character and how he came to those realizations. (The benefit of absorbing many types of media as I was growing up, BTW, was that I learned different ways different characters are developed and plots... thus the Comp lit...)

Baek Jin Sang in the realization department came 100% from Roo-Da. And that's a problem. It was direct result of conflict, of the 3-act arc type which I have issues with. In no part did it come from the Kishotenketsu model, in which I see Roo-Da and Kang Joon Ho benefit from.

A healthy relationship SHOULD have a person live for more than that single person. And even in Modern day Seoul, the isolation you cited isn't as much a thing as you outline. It's more the REVERSE (Watch the last Running Man where they cook for a bunch of elders--that's more how it is I can cite more academia, but read the end for why I'm not). In the countryside elders are being abandoned and isolated, while the 20-40-somethings of this generation are more social than in the country. There is no background given to Baek Jin Sang. It's an issue. He doesn't have temporary changes. Roo-Da does go back and forth, which is more dynamic as a character. Also there are Joon Ho back slides, which may be frustrating, but the ultimate realization that he treasures his family a lot more... gives back to the character. His evolution actually follows very closely to a Kishotenketsu arc, which as an author I have a total crush on (though I should note the versions of this vary country to country in which it's used.) I was waiting for some impetus or reasoning for Baek Jin Sang being the way he is. This would be character background. It doesn't have to be that long from a writer's PoV, sometimes you can get away with one sentence or two, but there is no real character motivation for him to stick to the rules beyond the fact he's an archetype of a bad boss that somehow got fleshed out. And really... that's not enough. I need more from him. I need family, friends, a reason for his workaholic nature. I'm sure Kang Ji Hwan sketched out something in his own head, because he's that great of an actor and because the way he acts the character is internally consistent, but writing-wise Baek Jin Saeng is really short of the line, even using a cross-cultural reference. (Seoul is the largest city in ROK.)

Anyway, the point is because he has not motivation in the beginning beyond being a device for the set up and probably workplace frustrations for both writers... and doesn't develop any later, it means his motivation has to come from somewhere, and in writer terms usually for secondary characters, you shorthand this by using another character as a crutch. (Beauty Inside did this with the mother, but the mother wasn't a main character, so it was acceptable). But as a frontline character, Baek Jin Sang needs more for himself in order to argue that he's doing things for himself. He has none of the key features to argue such a thing. He needs a family... none. He doesn't have a good character history... he worked at a place once where he got someone fired is about it. He doesn't have friends to talk to... so we have no background on his other interactions. He's flat. Really flat, so then the only crutch is Roo-Da, and no... that's codependency.

BTW, total aside, the high rate of suicide in South Korea is most likely driven by industrialization--i.e. rapid change in both cultural and physical landscape, and the lack of mental health support, unlike say, the US and UK where it's been shown to be due to urbanization and isolation. Those effects while happening are much slower due to Korea using a lot more group think over individualization.

A healthy relationship should have life outside of the partner in question.

While Joon Ho is childish, he's also shown to be lazy and have a general case of apathy. They said he got an MBA, which means he had to work hard enough to make a thesis in a university or college setting. From what he said he half did it for his family, half for himself. He could have quit at a BA, but he didn't. He did this in the US, so the US system would have him work with an academic advisor and he'd likely have to show up, etc. His laziness and childishness he cited as partly because his grandfather forced him into it, kept asking him to do it, while he didn't really see the need. He floated. And while one could argue it's lack of ability, and general nepotism, he still said he could cook a mean enough chicken. In another words, it's not lack of ability--he knows how to work the system as shown in later episodes. (He held meetings, came up with the scheme of the shareholders, etc--that was 100% him no Roo-Da's or Baek Jin Sang's ideas like earlier episodes...) So I see his major character flaw as apathy coupled with laziness. But he has a hidden capability.

The idea, though that in a relationship people need to grow at the same rate in the same areas is also kinda a weird idea I don't like either. It's not that way in life. People don't automatically grow at the same rates in every field. Sometimes a good romantic relationship is because people are stronger at different things and can bring that to the relationship. 

Also, let's both admit that Baek Jin Sang using the time loop to disrupt the Lee-Kang relationship was totally stalkerish and to me, he severely lost points in that. It shows that he really, really needs a life outside of work and romantic relationships. I was still waiting for the writer the remedy that. I also kinda think him disrupting the whole push away action of not accepting Joon Ho caused Roo-Da to reevaluate the relationship with Joon Ho. Baek Jin Sang did this twice, and while Kang Joon Ho doesn't remember, effectively she had a TON of dates with him. She got to know him, even if it's not on screen. (Writers write the story behind the story too).

Baek Jin Sang needs a life. Stat. He's problematic as a character. Personally, as a writer I'd have sketched in some family for him, even if it didn't make it on screen, I'd stick in one line somewhere like his parents died when he was 18. Or something about a mentor he really liked only taught him half the lesson in a semi-scrooge parable type of thing. It adds empathy to the character and also gives him a reason for his isolation. It doesn't have to be straight up phobia, but there should be *something* to make him think it through and the audience to connect with him. For example poor kid always got scholarships and had to be top of class to survive and get through college and thus never made friends. (Many dramas have this is a motivation in Korean and Japanese stories. One drama My Strange Hero currently has this as a motivation for one of the character's low EQ, despite high IQ.) As I said, Kang Ji Hwan probably thought up something... because the acting is right on point and consistent with him dreaming up something since it's not in the scripts anywhere and that's what great actors do. And believe me, I was looking and waiting and listening to every single last line hoping he'd come up with some reasoning. There is none. Writer stabby. Even if the original didn't have it, it's a good point for the scriptwriter to shine and pull him away from an archetype.

I still think that if the writer is worth their salt and knowing these types of stories from around the globe, the characters will recover their respective character arcs. We all know that the wishlist is going to be filled in the next few episodes. Joon Ho is going to eat dinner with his family. (Writer perspective it's called fulfilling a promise made--though we writers sometimes trick you that we will fill it and then heartbreakingly don't--but this late in the story--no--everything points to the whole list of wishes being filled). So the idea that Kang Joon Ho as they redo ALL of that time yet one more time will not recover his arc is unlikely. Might come out differently slightly, but I don't think he'll stay lazy and apathetic.
 

 

I didn't dismiss ageism, but I did say Age ranking has a direct effect on sexism in the workplace, for example... senior men, often in positions of power will require that all younger women clean their desk for them, make them coffee, bring that coffee, etc. So it's the power of age+sex that creates an extra dimension of a power dynamic, which means that often older men press on younger women inappropriately as they feel that difference in power and it still not quite count as sexual harassment since it's expected, traditional and all of that mysogynistic crap they made up and pretend it was part of all Korean History, when it wasn't and was a very late import (and Yes, import--did not come directly from Korea herself). (Say ask them to drink when they don't want to as shown in Beauty Inside, more directly in Something in the Rain etc--I'm referencing the media because I read the articles citing it does happen, but the articles are dry so it's easier to point to media examples. Academia is too dry to cite on a fan forum.) Personally, Goldkiwasae probably is railing against the workplace being structured as it is.

BTW, I'm not particularly strongly shipping Joon Ho, but I am analyzing character, looking at what elements were pulled from the Korean and worldwide canon, and trying to wrestle with how Koreans see their current feminism and where they are trying to go within this particular story. I don't ship characters really as an author. That's not my job, so much... my job is mostly to emotionally manipulate the readers/viewers so they understand and accept my argument that the story must be this way and there is no escaping it while being totally emotionally sucked in and invested. I'm guessing like most writers, Im Seo Ra has the same goal. Unfortunately, this is also culturally based as well... so how people read story will change on context of where they are. But overall, I tend to approach stories a lot more coldly than most audiences do--I switch hats also between Korean and other readings from other cultures. I catch every single last detail I can to see where the author is going. I make games of guessing the writer based on previous works too. (I crush on writer's abilities, and actors abilities trying to borrow those techniques for story writing... over what they look like and totally separate those things. The advantage of being gray-a is separating those things is totally easy for me. <3). And for me, from the whole Kishotenketsu standpoint, with the arc of feminism of your life partner should have a life outside of you because it's not a PIE of missing pieces of better halves, it's not OWNERSHIP (Both of which came from patriarchy of Victorian ideas of Medieval Europe, even if totally false), it's about finding personal balance, and you are not a rehab hospital, Kang Joon Ho is the better choice. Roo Da has more emotional attachment--she's fine with his childishness. He's not annoyed her for most of her work life. I don't need reform, or character conflict evolution arc and argue narrative structure. For me, as I head hop the character's PoV's and try to construct them (which as I noted is short on Baek Jin Sang which I personally hate as a writer given the amount of screentime he has...) Roo-Da just off and on screen has had more time with Joon Ho. (more off screen, since I think every single date isn't in there--there were quite a few cheats inserted along the way--they needed to emphasize the time loop over the development of the relationship with 20 episodes they might have gotten all of the things they missed to flesh those things out more cohesively). My differences as a writer v. viewer probably played a lot much more strongly on Introverted Boss where I took the writer's PoV and saw why the watchers couldn't connect properly to the first few episodes well... but total aside.

But yeah, I'm also fine with them not ending up together and no ultimate kiss. The romance really isn't a key part of Roo-Da's character arc so it doesn't matter. (Either from a realization or conflict-driven PoV). The romance really isn't the main thrust of this story... it's a sub plot at most which plays separate in some ways from the main plot of reform a crappy company. (A plotline that popular in Japan).

[selenette]

@Kim YunmiI'm too tired to respond in detail. But thanks for sharing a lot about various genres. First and firemost, in my opinion, whether or not Roo-da ends up with either man or single, will be determined by the writer's choice to either distort the office/fantasy/romcom genre or to stick to it, and not due to Kang Joon-ho's character superiority and emotional engagement. 

 

A. ON KANG JOON-HO'S NARRATIVE
 

As a sociologist, and one who criticizes text based on a Marxist crossover of this discipline, cultural studies and sociolinguistic, my opinion of fictitious privileged characters is colored by Marxist's philosophy of suspicion. In this regard, the upper of social class is seen as the domineering forces in the acquisition of wealth, which is why I distrust Joon-ho and disagree with his nepotism.

 

These factors, coupled with the lack of scenes to showcase his skills as a professional, strengthen my opinion that chaebol clans are portrayed here as both an economic foundation and one of the social problems of South Korea. 

 

B. ON BAEK JIN-SANG'S NARRATIVE

 

Culturally speaking, I recognize that Joon-ho is the more suitable choice in terms of age and background, despite his apparent and emphasized immaturity.

 

However, narratively speaking and  as a critic, I find Jin-sang's journey more engaging especially against the social backdrops of these two male characters (which I explained previously in point A)

 

I've noticed that we are both biased in our views on redemption trope. You reject it altogether because of its "women as rehabilitation center" possibilities, whereas for me it isn't the case that is offered by this drama, and even if it is, Jin-sang doesn't only depend on it as his motivation, since his scenes aren't entirely centered around Roo-da, and neither are the majority of his sentences, especially halfway in the drama. 

 

Jin-sang is also the better character (again, in my opinion) since he symbolizes a middle/working class hero and the writer's criticisms of gendered workplace injustice. 

 

The prejudice of Korean society regarding Jin-sang's age and murky background actually makes this character even more critically interesting, since Im Seo-ra challenges this prejudice continuously in the drama by exploring Baek Jin-sang's psyche, while Goldkiwisae reinforces the prejudice in her webtoon.

 

From my observation, the two writers do not necessarily agree with each other on all points. Therefore the drama does not necessarily follow the webtoon (notwithstanding Im Seo-ra's respect for the webtoon as canon).

 

For instance, the plot and character trajectories are different (as I elaborated in my previous posts), as well as the addressed key feminism issues and perspectives on other issues (especially injustice). 

 

Having said these, I'm really interested in exploring our different critical schools. It will be interesting if we write a journal article together and revisit them. If you're interested, please PM me. 

 

Regards.

[Heidi Seow]

 

[Heidi Seow]

6 minutes ago, Lawyerh said:

BJS in a loop 

@Heidi Seow im patiently waiting for my christmas present tommorow.. BJS stills.. haha

Hahaha, Im patiently waiting too @Lawyerh They still shooting rite?? They might be do wrap up party on finale day. 

[jenappelle]

 

BTS for BJS attempt to time loop

 

 

[Heidi Seow]

Guys, I think they gonna delay half an hour on Wednesday broadcast.

이렇듯 다채로운 명장면을 탄생시키며 안방극장을 웃기고 울린 KBS 2TV 수목드라마 '죽어도 좋아'는 오는 수요일(26일) 밤 10시 29, 30회가 방송될 예정이며 오는 목요일(27일) 최종회를 앞두고 있다. 

 

https://m.entertain.naver.com/read?oid=117&amp;aid=0003152730

[jenappelle]

@Heidi Seow Oh my. What is the reason?

 

Edit: Tuesday?

[Heidi Seow]

11 minutes ago, jenappelle said:

@Heidi Seow Oh my. What is the reason?

 

Edit: Tuesday?

Oops typo. Thanks for remind @jenappelle

I have no idea too. Still looking for reason. 

[nohamahamoud2002]

 

 

 

[selenette]

One of the crews has just posted a short video of the filming process. Thanks to these hardworking people, we have been blessed with this heartwarming drama. 

 

 

[nohamahamoud2002]

Director Na 

 

[selenette]

@nohamahamoud2002 Director Na is my favorite supporting character in this drama. I rewatched the earlier episodes yesterday, and I found that until Yoo Si-baek's appearance he was set up as a gray character (albeit a humane one). However, after she appeared he was written as a compassionate character, taking care of both Jin-sang and Joon-ho in and outside of their workplace. 

The scenes where he complimented Joon-ho's successful move to drive AI Capital away from the company and where he consoled a grieving Jin-sang after failing to secure a time loop to revive Roo-da are my favorites. 

[gm4queen]

To all the chingus who celebrate Christmas!!

 

 

 

[Ashbelle]

Merry Christmas Chingus!!!!

 

May the melody and the spirit of holidays fill your homes with love and peace..

[phoenix24]

 

[nohamahamoud2002]

Happy new year chingus. Let's watch new dramas in the new year.

 

there is a video of the last day of shooting in the above link, use the horizontal arrow to scroll the instagram photos 

 

 Wishing Kang Ji Hwanssi to act in a new drama next year to fill our hearts with happiness