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[Mainland Chinese Drama 2019] Heavenly Sword Dragon Slaying Saber 倚天屠龙记


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@kimmortal i'm a fan too!! But only for the Trilogy. Never watch Demi-Gods and Semi-devils. But for the last trilogy i probably have watched 4 version as i remember. Yes imho JY novel  have a hidden meaning he want to express for those who understand his POV :sweatingbullets: and many meaningful words :)

@2handsintertwined yes! You should watched it again. Usually people watch drama only to see their OTP and following the story. When watched it for 2nd time, we can understand plot better imho. 

@kur4p1k4 since i also read the book version too, I don't know either for a person who know HSDS for 1st time will understand the plot and story o not. (Cause i'm not that person):lol:

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I'm completely gobsmacked by the criticisms of young Joseph's performance. So far he's nailed the role in all its essence.  He's probably the most age-appropriate ZWJ that I've seen. And I love how he

About to get sentimental on you guys. I think I've finally realized why I'm borderline obsessed with this version of ZM/ZWJ, as opposed to just being a passerby viewer in the previous versions. This v

@kur4p1k4 thank you kurapika for the information. ZM and ZWJ are indeed the best couple beating all the odds. I think they are representing most of us people so we can feel the love.   

2 hours ago, kimmortal said:

@2handsintertwined @polar15

I like how Jin Yong novels will have some object that everybody wants, but that the main character will just stumble upon even though he doesn’t necessarily crave it. It finds him precisely because he doesn’t care for it and he doesn’t seek it out. And even though these objects are mentioned often, Jin Yong’s stories always include world building and the readers/audience only learn about the world and its inhabitants through the main character’s point of view (POV). So yes—HSDS is not primarily about the sword and sabre, but more about heroism, brotherhood, family, relationships, nationalism, martial arts, and all kinds of Chinese values/lessons. All of this is why the Condor Trilogy is such a fun read and easy to watch—it’s classic storytelling. And in his shared universe, the stories sometimes spans a few decades to a hundred years.

 

C.S. Lewis does a similar thing when he writes the frozen age of the witch, then the golden age of Narnia ruled by the four kings and queens, followed by some hundred years or so of persecution/war before Prince Caspian restores Narnia to its previous glory, and then everything after.

 

Jin Yong writes the Song Dynasty with Qiao Feng, then when Jins conquered most of northern Song, then 2 decades later with great victory for Song at Xiangyang, then Yuan Dynasty, then Qing Dynasty. I’m probably missing quite a lot of storytelling in between somewhere but you get the gist.

 

To have a deeper understanding of Jin Yong’s shared universe requires watching (or reading) at least 4 of his stories. Sometimes it takes a couple rewatches. When I was little, I didn’t understand most of Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils because I’d seen a really old Taiwanese version or something. Later on, I watched TVB’s 1996 version and it all finally clicked and made sense and connected together. My suggestion is to find a version that really speaks to you and helps you understand, then piece all of it together to form a cohesive world. You don’t necessarily need to combine dramas made in the same decade. You can mix and match the different versions, as long as you have one favourite version of each of the following:

 

In Chronological order:

1) The Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils

2) The Legend of the Condor Heroes

3) The Return of the Condor Heroes

4) The Heavenly Sword and Dragon (Slaying) Sabre

 

That should be enough to understand all the characters, plots, and nuances. For further exploration, watch more Jin Yong. Sorry, I won’t list them because I don’t know them by heart. I remember The Duke of Mount Deer is one.

 

OK, I’ve said too much already. I hope you will continue to enjoy Jin Yong tv adaptations. I’m a huge fan! As you can tell.

So you like Jin Yong's novels? Thanks for sharing your opinion! I will continue to enjoy Jin Yong's tv adaptations! I'm glad you're a huge fan! Me too!

 

1 hour ago, kur4p1k4 said:

I'm curious which parts that you don't understand when you watched it?

 

I never read the book personally, only watch the older 1986 version that's it but I still understand the show. I also watched Legend of Condor Heroes 1983&1994 and Return of Condor Heroes1983, but I still understand perfectly the show storytelling, then because I'm interested to know more I read the book. 

So I disagree with @kimmortal to say that to understand HSDS you have to read all 4 JY books, since HSDS is far enough timeline that all things related to LOCH and ROCH are more like easter eggs. If an audience cannot understand a TV show adaptation without reading the book first that just mean the director/editor did a bad job in adapting. 

If you want a deeper understanding and interested in more wuxia story I would say JY is a classic but to watch a TV show you have to read 4 books that just means the TV show suck in explaining to the audience what it story is.

 

Only LOCH and ROCH that is close enough, to watch ROCH is better to watch LOCH first since some characters action in ROCH are affected by what happens in LOCH

But DGSD and HSDS storywise is totally unneeded to know LOCH and ROCH at all imho

 

Well, I don't know how to tell you which parts I didn't understand. I'll try.

 

Why did Zhang Wujin's mother give up the Sabre? She knew it was powerful, right? Why did she send the brother up the mountain. Why did he get attacked? Did she she lie that she was trying to save him? Why did Wujin get kidnapped? Why did they put the disease on him? Why did some sects hate the Ming sect? The Ming sect wasn't actually that bad, right? Why did the story begin with the Dragon Sabre, but towards the middle we forget about the Dragon Sabre! We wanted to find the secrets about the Dragon Sabre. But the story went in another direction. It was about who Zhang Wujin met. It was about his relationships. It was about him curing his disease. The healer didn't heal anyone who wasn't in Ming sect. But he healed Wujin. The story just stopped being about the Dragon Sabre. I think it stopped being about the Heavenly Sword too. It was like which sect is better? Who can fight the best? Wujin lost a lot of things in his life. Was he ever happy? I don't know if that makes sense?

 

So you disagree with @kimmortal?  I understand.

 

23 minutes ago, polar15 said:

yes! You should watched it again. Usually people watch drama only to see their OTP and following the story. When watched it for 2nd time, we can understand plot better imho. 

Ok :) 

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16 hours ago, LaurenPanna said:

 

Yitian Fan

 

thank you so much for your kind words, and never-ending encouragement for me. :) love you.

I am contemplating on translating my Chinese fanfic into English one day. Hope i get the time.

I learnt alot from reading other authors work, and really this is my first time writing, i am amazed by my patience.

Coincidentally, today, i wrote a chapter all on Fighting scenes. So difficult !

Chapter 19, if you have time to read hahahahaha

 

 

Thanks for sharing your Site, I will share it with other lofter users who are really keen in reading your dark Wuji fanfic.

 

If you like to read chinese, currently in my fanfic, WJ and MM are in wudang, starting from chapter 12.

And ZZR is there as well hahahahhaha

 

i am struggling but trying hard to make the best out of the two girls.

Thank you for sharing the link,  Lauren. Hope they can enjoy it, as the story is quite (or very)  dark and characters are super out of character/faaar from the source material:sweatingbullets::mrgreen:. when I wrote it,  i have my doubts and I am kinda worried how it would be perceived. :unsure::sweatingbullets: Still got one more part (part 2 of 3rd chapter) and an epilogue and this story will wrap up:D

 

Actually, I decided to start trying to read Chinese fanfic to improve on my mandarin, so will start with yours!! :love: It just take me loo~~ng to read one piece, considering it took me like 10 minutes to understand one sentence :sweat_smile: :lol:. Uugh,  my regret of being so lazy to properly learn mandarin as a kid knows no bound lol :tears:

 

@kur4p1k4

Looove the GIFs. She's definitely so petite compared to WJ. They matched perfectly when they hugged, when they hold hands,  and when they stand besides each other.:love:

 

I also love to see her hand on his hand. Her hand looks so tiny compared to his.

 

 I lol'ed on the flower part. WJ is so adorable hahaha.  Well,  he said it himself that he didn't know why but in front of her,  he's more befuddled hahaha.

 

I think the make up and costume department of this series did great job in styling JZ as WJ. In real life,  I personally feel that JZ had this boyish look and he's like 5 years younger than YC but in the series,  he looked much more matured and perfectly older (slightly)  to play WJ, and well-matched with ZM played by YC. (no offense intended please). So kudos to the team!! 

 

Peace all!!  :D:mrgreen:

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1 hour ago, 2handsintertwined said:

Well, I don't know how to tell you which parts I didn't understand. I'll try.

 

Why did Zhang Wujin's mother give up the Sabre? She knew it was powerful, right? Why did she send the brother up the mountain. Why did he get attacked? Did she she lie that she was trying to save him? Why did Wujin get kidnapped? Why did they put the disease on him? Why did some sects hate the Ming sect? The Ming sect wasn't actually that bad, right? Why did the story begin with the Dragon Sabre, but towards the middle we forget about the Dragon Sabre! We wanted to find the secrets about the Dragon Sabre. But the story went in another direction. It was about who Zhang Wujin met. It was about his relationships. It was about him curing his disease. The healer didn't heal anyone who wasn't in Ming sect. But he healed Wujin. The story just stopped being about the Dragon Sabre. I think it stopped being about the Heavenly Sword too. It was like which sect is better? Who can fight the best? Wujin lost a lot of things in his life. Was he ever happy? I don't know if that makes sense?

 

ZWJ's mother did not give up the sabre, but the sabre was taken by Xie Xun, this is an wuxia story, strongest ppl always win, even if XX is blind he's ability and inner energy are a few level above WJ's parents.

Do you mean the 3rd brother of Wudang? She send him back to Wudang because she did not want to have more troubles with Wudang, she only paralyse him if 3rd brother can return to Wudang Zhang San Feng can cure him, but as you know 3rd brother met disaster before reaching Wudang. It was explained in one of the episode 5 or 6.

Wuji get kidnapped once the news that Yin Su Su and Zhang Cui Shan is back in mainland since they're the last known ppl and XX who are in the presence of the sabre. So that 'soldier' try to hold WJ hostage to blackmail his parents to disclose the location of XX.

WJ did not have a disease but an injury that disrupt his internal energy, kind of like a cold energy that slowly saps his life. The 'soldier' injured him so he can run away from ZSF, since by himself he's not on the same level as ZSF ability.

All the orthodox sects hated Ming sect because of the secretive nature of Ming sect and XX. He indiscriminately kill anybody to force Cheng Kun to comes out and face him, it was explained during the assault on Bright Peak, episode 19 or 20 I think and XX's past in episode 4 or 5.

Towards the middle it's not that we forget about the Dragon sabre but nobody know where it is anymore, since the last lead are YSS and ZCS whom have died by suicide, and it's 'dishonorable' to force a dying kid to divulge XX's location. That's why ppl stopped looking for it until there's some new info, there's nothing they can do.

Heaven sword, people tend to forget since the verse about it is not about ruling the world but just fighting Dragon Sabre on equal footing. It's always more nice to own a sabre that can rule the world. And Heaven sword was held by Er Mei's headmaster mostly, it was only lost a few years back before Mie Jue become the headmaster. Er Mei also is just an okay sect, while Wudang leader has greater and better renown in the wulin world for their ability, even though both of them start at the same time. So, I think ppl assume there's no secret in Heaven sword that could give them an edge in being the greatest in the world, since Er Mei is not...great...just...okay...(sorry Er Mei fans:sweatingbullets:).  While Dragon Sabre was always changing owners.

 

I personally just dislike when a TV show/movies adaptation, you have to read the book again just to understand it. It's an adaptation, audiences should be able to understand without reading the source material that's the whole point of adaptation, if they can't understand the story then you just suck at adapting. I know JY firstly from the TVB adaptation, which I understand all the plot points even without reading the book. I then read the book just because I want to see how far or close they follow the book. If the audience wants to know more then they read the book, that's fine imho.

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2 hours ago, PutriSing said:

Ok guys, how do you paste the Gifs from Imgur here? Sorry for the question.

 

 

When you post a reply do you see in the bottom right corner there's a box with "Insert image from URL"?

Click that, then just paste the link of the gif's URL

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1 hour ago, 2handsintertwined said:

So you like Jin Yong's novels? Thanks for sharing your opinion! I will continue to enjoy Jin Yong's tv adaptations! I'm glad you're a huge fan! Me too!

 

 

Well, I don't know how to tell you which parts I didn't understand. I'll try.

 

Why did Zhang Wujin's mother give up the Sabre? She knew it was powerful, right? Why did she send the brother up the mountain. Why did he get attacked? Did she she lie that she was trying to save him? Why did Wujin get kidnapped? Why did they put the disease on him? Why did some sects hate the Ming sect? The Ming sect wasn't actually that bad, right? Why did the story begin with the Dragon Sabre, but towards the middle we forget about the Dragon Sabre! We wanted to find the secrets about the Dragon Sabre. But the story went in another direction. It was about who Zhang Wujin met. It was about his relationships. It was about him curing his disease. The healer didn't heal anyone who wasn't in Ming sect. But he healed Wujin. The story just stopped being about the Dragon Sabre. I think it stopped being about the Heavenly Sword too. It was like which sect is better? Who can fight the best? Wujin lost a lot of things in his life. Was he ever happy? I don't know if that makes sense?

 

So you disagree with @kimmortal?  I understand.

 

Ok :) 

 

To clarify, I didn’t say you need to watch other stuff to understand HSDS. I said if you want to have a deeper understanding of Jin Yong’s shared universe, watching all 4 series will satisfy that. Like Marvel’s Cinematic Universe—you can watch only Doctor Strange and still understand Doctor Strange, but if you want to know what people are talking about what they mention “the incidents in New York” then you’ll need to watch other movies in the MCU. Anyway, I digress.

 

I’ll try to answer your questions.

1) Wuji’s mother didn’t give up the sabre. She just couldn’t beat Xie Xun and she wanted to keep her life. Later on, it didn’t matter who had the sabre on Ice-Fire Island because her priorities changed. She picked love and family first.

2) 3rd Hero of Wudang is a good guy and Wudang is known for being a famously good sect whose disciples do good deeds. Wuji’s mother and uncle hurt him to get the sabre; they didn’t need to kill him. She didn’t want to sow further discord between Heavenly Sect and Wudang so she sends him back to Wudang using a delivery service so her identity wouldn’t be known.

3) He got attacked because the culprits wanted the dragon sabre. They guy 3rd Hero fought with last saw him protecting the man who had the sabre (who was later found dead) so it was obvious that the sabre was in 3rd hero’s hands. That’s why the culprit asks him, “is the sabre in the hands of the one surnamed Yin?” Since 3rd Hero was injured when they found him, they figure he lost the sabre to this Yin person. They tortured him so he would speak. He did not say anything. They left him crippled.

4) Yin Susu (Wuji’s mom) did not lie that she wanted to help him. She really was trying to send him back to his master. Those delivery guys were supposed to hand him straight to his master at Wudang temple, not to anyone else at the foot of the mountain. Those guys f—ked up.

5) Wuji got kidnapped because as soon as 5th Hero and Yin Susu was known to be back in Central Plains mainland, news travelled fast and everybody wanted to know where Xie Xun was so they could get dragon sabre. The people who kidnapped Wuji wanted to use him as leverage to get his parents to talk (and wanted to scare him into talking too).

6) Wuji got hit with the Ice Palm as a last resort, probably out of anger, because Grandmaster Zhang Sanfeng successfully got him back. They were just really pissed. Or maybe they thought the good guys would come begging for a cure and have to reveal Xie Xun’s whereabouts.

7) All the orthodox sects hate Ming sects because the government labelled Ming sect members as evil and called them the Devil Sect. Without knowing the root cause, naturally the people of the martial world believed in this nickname as well. And it didn’t help that Xie Xun, who was 1 of 4 protectors of Ming Sect, went around killing people of orthodox sects to force his master out of hiding. He caused more people to hate Ming Sect. Nobody knew the Ming Sect’s true mission statement.

8) Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the title of the series/novel doesn’t really matter. Both sword and sabre are just MacGuffins used so that we can start the story somewhere and then we actually follow the hero through his quests and “Hero’s Journey” and character development. The true story of HSDS is about washing away old grudges and joining together all the people of the martial arts world toward a common purpose: to restore the land of the Hans and drive away the Mongolians and overthrow the Yuan Dynasty. That was the true purpose of the sword and sabre when they were forged by Guo Jing and Huang Rong back when they were defending the country against invaders. That’s the mission statement of the Ming Cult. And within this rebellion, there’s the underlying theme of bad vs good and falling in love with the enemy. Zhang Cuisan and Yin Susu were on different sides (orthodox vs unorthodox sects) and then Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min (Han vs Mongolian).

 

Phew! I hope that was clear. I believe that most, if not all, of your questions were actually answered in the show, hence why I think this is a good adaptation. I’m actually surprised you didn’t ask more pertinent questions like what’s the origin of the 9 Yang Manual and what the heck was it doing inside a big monkey. Lol. That, I believe, was not answered well at all in this version, because Zhang Sanfeng skipped a lot of details in his story to Zhang Wuji. But never mind that. It’s just extra information that enhances the story but doesn’t change its outcome.

 

There’s a new forum about wuxia that just started for anybody who’s interested in having lengthy discussions about all things wuxia related: https://jianxia.smfnew2.com/index.php

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On 6/10/2019 at 7:58 PM, chipz03 said:

Wow,  that's quite a lot of starred words there. If you want to watch ambiguous ending, I would think 2009 would be closer to your taste. 

 

You said it yourself that it's unrealistic for ZR to just suddenly changed like that. I feel that If no seed to cultivate, no result can appear. I personally felt it's easier to act according to the high moral and etiquette when you are not faced with many things that didn't go as you wished.  But sometimes it's harder to repress one's true self or what one is capable of doing when faced with adversities.  I've said this before,  from my personal POV  what ZR had for WJ was not love but obsession. She's obsessed to have his love and the glory for Emei, and her obsessions that eventually pushed her to do all those crazy things in Snake Island. 

 

Feel free to disagree but that's my stance. 

 

You can like the actress and/or the characters, it's your prerogative. I think both actresses are pretty.  I like YC type of beauty more,  but that's my opinion. (while I think GYY who acted as ZR is prettier than ZM in 2003 version,  but ZM remain my favorite. Again, That's my opinion though). 

 

But let me ask you this:

Would you rather WJ enter a marriage built on lies?  Only realizing when it's already too late and no way out?  No matter how "hot" the person is,  you are ready to enter a lifetime commitment like this? 

 

Lies that deal with attempted murder of a cousin (zhiruo really should thank her lucky star that her plan to kill Yinli didn't get through) , attempt to hurt a godfather, all for the sakes of a sword and a sabre to "bring glory to the sect" that she belongs to? ZZR had the choice to commit those crimes or to refuse, especially after MJST died (like Ji xiaofu refused in front of MJ at the expense of her own life, but ZR opted to commit those crimes).

 

Not only that,  this fiancee had also slashed WJ cousin's face,  went on crazy rampage against the villagers who didn't even do anything to harm her, trying to kill Xie Xun (WJ godfather that he loved and respected) during the lion slaying event even after she obtained the secrets from the two weapons, and cowardly dump all the evil deeds she did on Snake island on another woman who didn't do any of the crimes. While continuing to play that victim card,  even threatened to hurt herself when she felt that she might lose him and he try to leave the relationship. She couldn't even find a peace of mind when she's with him.  She kept on fearing about ZM in his heart (guess conscience is hard to be lied to) . Would WJ be willing to enter this kind of marriage?  Would you be willing to enter this kind of marriage? 

 

At least that  person you called "evil b***h" is brave enough to own things she did,  instead of hiding behind lies upon lies to get what she wanted. She took him away from his wedding for her own goal,   but it was also for him. I believe in the novel it was mentioned that he felt relieved to escape the wedding. Unfortunately ZR was not willing to understand his predicament even when he begged for her understanding. The "kind and gentle" ZR for sure could understand, don't you think?  

 

 ZM was also ready to own up the deeds done by her subordinate years before she was born (at least on the 2019 tv series) . What ZM did at Wan An temple was wrong in the eyes of the 6 good sect and Ming sect, and she's not an angel but in the eyes of her side,  what she did was for the greater good of her dynasty. I am not condoning her crimes, but she did what she could for her side. She did bad deeds too,  but she was brave enough to own up her "crimes."

 

My response is harsh so peace all!!

 

 

Hi, thanks for your input. Look, the whole rooting for ZZR thing cos of the girl playing her role is just a minor extra thing I added in as a comment, it’s not an important factor or serious point of argument. It’s all fictional anyway so nothing wrong with complementing a pretty celebrity on tv- my wife doesn’t mind! :D Anyway, my main point was that I have never seen an ambiguous ending for HSDS and just wanted them to follow the book (albeit 2nd edition) to be a bit different. I was born in HK but grew up in the UK and have watched a lot of western shows as well as TVB HK productions and the endings are not always happy, but that’s life. Life is not always clear cut and sometimes films and tv shows should reflect that if it makes a more interesting story or finale. I don’t know if it does make a better ending but it sure will be different to the other versions I have seen. Anyway, I actually think that all of ZWJ’s love interests have a dark side with the exception of the girl who left for Persia (can’t spell her name). You’re probably right though, ZZR’s actions and bad choices were too much for her to be able to be with ZWJ but ZM did bad things too at the beginning. I guess he likes ZM cos she is like his mother? I will try and see the 2009 version but I only understand Cantonese or English subs. Thanks, regards.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Horse said:

Hi, thanks for your input. Look, the whole rooting for ZZR thing cos of the girl playing her role is just a minor extra thing I added in as a comment, it’s not an important factor or serious point of argument. It’s all fictional anyway so nothing wrong with complementing a pretty celebrity on tv- my wife doesn’t mind! :D Anyway, my main point was that I have never seen an ambiguous ending for HSDS and just wanted them to follow the book (albeit 2nd edition) to be a bit different. I was born in HK but grew up in the UK and have watched a lot of western shows as well as TVB HK productions and the endings are not always happy, but that’s life. Life is not always clear cut and sometimes films and tv shows should reflect that if it makes a more interesting story or finale. I don’t know if it does make a better ending but it sure will be different to the other versions I have seen. Anyway, I actually think that all of ZWJ’s love interests have a dark side with the exception of the girl who left for Persia (can’t spell her name). You’re probably right though, ZZR’s actions and bad choices were too much for her to be able to be with ZWJ but ZM did bad things too at the beginning. I guess he likes ZM cos she is like his mother? I will try and see the 2009 version but I only understand Cantonese or English subs. Thanks, regards.

@Mr Horse if you like actress played ZZR, i think you should watched Ten miles of Peach Blossom. She acted so good in there too, to be annoying no. 2 antagonist lady in that series. :wub:. Why she always played annoying character in Wuxia series:sweatingbullets: but i love her acting..so good that i almost want throw something to my TV or laptop everytime she appear:lol:

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@Mr Horse

Loo~~oong post so sorry for the wall of text.

 

Liking a celebrity is perfectly alright. They are real while the characters they played are just fictional. I have seen a lot of married or unmarried men/women become fans of celebrities who are handsome,  pretty, funny,  and/or any characteristics that appeal to each different individual. And That can add more fun to life hahaha.

 

Agree that ZM, ZR,  YL all had flaws, although if I can argue,  the context at which they did the evil deeds are what set them apart (at least for me). At the beginning, ZM did the evil things, that's true. She did that mainly for her country. Before she knew WJ and started to understand his POV,  the 6 major sects and Ming sect are her enemies, just like she is one to those who were fighting against her dynasty. From her side's POV,  what's wrong and what's right are not necessarily the same with Wuji's and the opposition's POV.  I guess it depends on from which side are you looking at. And a member of this forum had elaborated quite nicely on the timing of the rise, fall,  and eventual redemption of these characters, and how it shape up the stories and why WJ-ZM worked out.

 

Strictly from entertainment/fictional story purposes, having a more complex characters are more interesting for most audience. These type of characters can provide more organic grounds to develop story/create conflicts, which are one of the most important aspects of a drama/fiction. Hence,  ZM,  ZR, yl for me are more interesting from this POV than Xiao zhao.  (in contrast,  in real life,  i prefer no drama at all haha. less dramatic and less drama the better) 

 

I also agree that western shows and even some asian shows nowadays have less than the "perfect" happy ending. Although it might also be dependent on the targeted audience. I am not an expert in this so I might be wrong,  but there seem to be an unwritten and unspoken expectations that majority of classical wuxia series like HSDS had hero who ended up with one heroine.

 

Now this is my personal POV here but I, myself,  would be personally very pissed if the hero or heroine ended up in ambiguous relationship. Unlike perhaps a more modern series or some western series,  classical wuxia series that I can enjoy has always involved a more traditional approach/POV when it comes to relationships, among other things. And for some drama,  including HSDD,  I prefer it that way.  Hence I am never a big fan of Duke of Mount Deer,  no offense to the fans please.

 

For me,  it provides a nice break from the reality nowadays where a lot of relationships seem to lose its value and meaning. A nice diversion from my more cynical point of view regarding relationship in the real life hahaha. (I often think of it as "meh" type of thing. Sorry all if this is rude :sweatingbullets:)

 

Honestly though, in reality, I don't think I could,  and I definitely will not tolerate a partner like indecisive WJ. It's like,  if one cannot be sure to whom his/her love belong to, how would one be sure he/she could avoid hurting the partner in the long run. It's a major nope for me. If reality is like the indecisive  WJ, then I would show this person the door now rather than spending my lifetime in limbo worrying whom he/she is thinking about inside his/her heart. Too tiring even when I think about it.  But that's my opinion though so peace out haha:D

 

Regarding why WJ eventually fell for ZM:

I personally feel that resembling his mother might be one factor but I felt that WJ is drawn to her because of more factors. She's not a typical lady at that time,  I would guess. She, a young princess,  has commanded her troops,  she's smart, she fought with him,  she annoyed the heck out of him at the beginning, she teased him, but she's also very brave in facing the consequences of her actions. She own her mistakes while she steadfastly rejects wrongful accusations against her. Plus,  she is more direct when it comes to her feeling toward him and he could be himself more when he's around him. In other words,  she's all around bad-a##. If I am wj,  I would choose her too haha. 

 

Anyway,  like mentioned before, HSDS 2009 used the 2nd version ending. I personally quite like Deng Chao who played wuji, but I saw many complaints about this version.  Zzr in this version was a bit disappointing and the editing kind of butcher the overall quality of the series. But you might want to try it out if you want to have a more ambiguous ending. And agree with prev poster, Bambi was in the Three Lives Three World: ten miles of peach blossom.  (my favorite in this series is Dilraba Dilmurat character, which will have her own series coming out).

 

 

 

Peace all 

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All of you are superb!! 

Good analytical skills!! 

To be honest, i read almost all Jinyong books except for three Stories that i did not. And i watch numerous adaptations. But i never once do deeper analysis like you guys did. I always read/watch and go on to the next. But i love reading online Jinyong chinese analytics and always go *Wow i never thought of that! * kind of feeling!! Its a totally different kind of feeling reading jinyong analytics in English!! Always learning something new from Jinyong, thanks to you guys!! 

 

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9 hours ago, polar15 said:

@Mr Horse if you like actress played ZZR, i think you should watched Ten miles of Peach Blossom. She acted so good in there too, to be annoying no. 2 antagonist lady in that series. :wub:. Why she always played annoying character in Wuxia series:sweatingbullets: but i love her acting..so good that i almost want throw something to my TV or laptop everytime she appear:lol:

Thanks. She’s pretty but I wouldn’t actually watch a bad show just because she’s in it, unless it is good? I’m a bit shallow for pretty actresses but not that shallow, haha! But I might try to catch it to make my own mind up if I get the chance. :) 

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9 hours ago, polar15 said:

@Mr Horse if you like actress played ZZR, i think you should watched Ten miles of Peach Blossom. She acted so good in there too, to be annoying no. 2 antagonist lady in that series. :wub:. Why she always played annoying character in Wuxia series:sweatingbullets: but i love her acting..so good that i almost want throw something to my TV or laptop everytime she appear:lol:

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7 hours ago, chipz03 said:

@Mr Horse

Loo~~oong post so sorry for the wall of text.

 

Liking a celebrity is perfectly alright. They are real while the characters they played are just fictional. I have seen a lot of married or unmarried men/women become fans of celebrities who are handsome,  pretty, funny,  and/or any characteristics that appeal to each different individual. And That can add more fun to life hahaha.

 

Agree that ZM, ZR,  YL all had flaws, although if I can argue,  the context at which they did the evil deeds are what set them apart (at least for me). At the beginning, ZM did the evil things, that's true. She did that mainly for her country. Before she knew WJ and started to understand his POV,  the 6 major sects and Ming sect are her enemies, just like she is one to those who were fighting against her dynasty. From her side's POV,  what's wrong and what's right are not necessarily the same with Wuji's and the opposition's POV.  I guess it depends on from which side are you looking at. And a member of this forum had elaborated quite nicely on the timing of the rise, fall,  and eventual redemption of these characters, and how it shape up the stories and why WJ-ZM worked out.

 

Strictly from entertainment/fictional story purposes, having a more complex characters are more interesting for most audience. These type of characters can provide more organic grounds to develop story/create conflicts, which are one of the most important aspects of a drama/fiction. Hence,  ZM,  ZR, yl for me are more interesting from this POV than Xiao zhao.  (in contrast,  in real life,  i prefer no drama at all haha. less dramatic and less drama the better) 

 

I also agree that western shows and even some asian shows nowadays have less than the "perfect" happy ending. Although it might also be dependent on the targeted audience. I am not an expert in this so I might be wrong,  but there seem to be an unwritten and unspoken expectations that majority of classical wuxia series like HSDS had hero who ended up with one heroine.

 

Now this is my personal POV here but I, myself,  would be personally very pissed if the hero or heroine ended up in ambiguous relationship. Unlike perhaps a more modern series or some western series,  classical wuxia series that I can enjoy has always involved a more traditional approach/POV when it comes to relationships, among other things. And for some drama,  including HSDD,  I prefer it that way.  Hence I am never a big fan of Duke of Mount Deer,  no offense to the fans please.

 

For me,  it provides a nice break from the reality nowadays where a lot of relationships seem to lose its value and meaning. A nice diversion from my more cynical point of view regarding relationship in the real life hahaha. (I often think of it as "meh" type of thing. Sorry all if this is rude :sweatingbullets:)

 

Honestly though, in reality, I don't think I could,  and I definitely will not tolerate a partner like indecisive WJ. It's like,  if one cannot be sure to whom his/her love belong to, how would one be sure he/she could avoid hurting the partner in the long run. It's a major nope for me. If reality is like the indecisive  WJ, then I would show this person the door now rather than spending my lifetime in limbo worrying whom he/she is thinking about inside his/her heart. Too tiring even when I think about it.  But that's my opinion though so peace out haha:D

 

Regarding why WJ eventually fell for ZM:

I personally feel that resembling his mother might be one factor but I felt that WJ is drawn to her because of more factors. She's not a typical lady at that time,  I would guess. She, a young princess,  has commanded her troops,  she's smart, she fought with him,  she annoyed the heck out of him at the beginning, she teased him, but she's also very brave in facing the consequences of her actions. She own her mistakes while she steadfastly rejects wrongful accusations against her. Plus,  she is more direct when it comes to her feeling toward him and he could be himself more when he's around him. In other words,  she's all around bad-a##. If I am wj,  I would choose her too haha. 

 

Anyway,  like mentioned before, HSDS 2009 used the 2nd version ending. I personally quite like Deng Chao who played wuji, but I saw many complaints about this version.  Zzr in this version was a bit disappointing and the editing kind of butcher the overall quality of the series. But you might want to try it out if you want to have a more ambiguous ending. And agree with prev poster, Bambi was in the Three Lives Three World: ten miles of peach blossom.  (my favorite in this series is Dilraba Dilmurat character, which will have her own series coming out).

 

 

 

Peace all 

Oh, yeah, if I acted like ZWJ in the book - my wife wouldn’t have married me in the first place and she probably would have used Nine Yáng White Bone Claws on my manhood and blasted me out the door using Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms, haha! But you know, I just want to see that ambiguous ending cos i’ve never seen it before. As I mentioned before, I missed the 2009 version. I’ve seen the 1986 TVB version with Tony Leung which I used to love but I think it’s quite dated with it’s low production scenery and backdrop (you can’t beat Mainland China for getting the natural backgrounds and scenery), the 1994 Taiwan version which I thought was excellent and had the best actors (probably the best ever ZZR in Kathy Chow) and the 2000 TVB version which had the worst miscast as ZWJ! I like this 2019 version but like a lot of people, I thought the slow-mo fight scenes were unnecessary. If they could’ve made it more fast paced fight scenes like how TVB HK did it would have been better. HK used to be famous for it’s martial arts choreography in films and tv. Oh, and is the Three Lives Three World actually any good? Look, I wouldn’t actually watch a show just for pretty girls (although Dilraba is also very pretty), :) it does have to be a good watch. I’m a bit shallow for pretty girl celebs but not that bad. :D 

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It just occured to me to wonder, does Zhao Min ever kill anybody?

 

I don't remember if it's in the novel or in this 2019 version, but Zhang Wuji once asks Zhao Min if she's ever killed anybody. And she answers, "Not Yet." Then continues saying that if somebody ever hurt her father or her brother she would kill them along with their friends and family. But she never does that, does she? Even after Ming Cult members premeditate and carry out the murder of her father, she never acts on these words to take revenge.

 

Thinking back, I can't remember seeing her kill anybody. Yes, she captures the 6 Major Sects and causes trouble at Wudang but that involves injuring and poisoning them to bring back to Wan An Temple. As we recall, Shaolin Temple has no bodies to show. The Shaolin monk whose head we see is probably killed by the traitorous monk who brings it over to Zhang Sanfeng.

 

On the Snake Spirit Island, she fights the Persians and might even slashes a few of them with her Yitian sword but does she kill them? Are they dead? I don't know.

 

Compare all this to the likes of Yin Li (who we know has at least one kill -- Chu whatever her name is -- under her belt) and Zhou Zhiruo who doesn't kill people at Guang Ming Peak (she hits them with the blunt or flat part of her sword--bless her), but then goes on to murder a whole bunch of Yuan soldiers on Snake Spirit Island and even suggests killing to silence the runaway soldiers back on mainland. Poor misguided Zhiruo...

 

In any case, you can argue that Zhao Min is high-ranking enough that she orders other people to do her deeds (kill people) and so these bodies rack up and count as her doing. But it's still interesting to note that when it comes to killing people first-hand, she does not do that. Is it cowardice? Or is it because she does not grow up in wulin and never gets desensitized to killing? I like to think the latter. Maybe I'm a bit biased but it says something to me that everyone calls her evil demoness and all that but she doesn't actually kill as many people as the typical wulin martial artist. She orders the chopping of people's fingers but what's a few fingers compared to actual lives? Her previous crimes are not as serious as people make it out to be.

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14 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

ZWJ's mother did not give up the sabre, but the sabre was taken by Xie Xun, this is an wuxia story, strongest ppl always win, even if XX is blind he's ability and inner energy are a few level above WJ's parents.

Do you mean the 3rd brother of Wudang? She send him back to Wudang because she did not want to have more troubles with Wudang, she only paralyse him if 3rd brother can return to Wudang Zhang San Feng can cure him, but as you know 3rd brother met disaster before reaching Wudang. It was explained in one of the episode 5 or 6.

Wuji get kidnapped once the news that Yin Su Su and Zhang Cui Shan is back in mainland since they're the last known ppl and XX who are in the presence of the sabre. So that 'soldier' try to hold WJ hostage to blackmail his parents to disclose the location of XX.

WJ did not have a disease but an injury that disrupt his internal energy, kind of like a cold energy that slowly saps his life. The 'soldier' injured him so he can run away from ZSF, since by himself he's not on the same level as ZSF ability.

All the orthodox sects hated Ming sect because of the secretive nature of Ming sect and XX. He indiscriminately kill anybody to force Cheng Kun to comes out and face him, it was explained during the assault on Bright Peak, episode 19 or 20 I think and XX's past in episode 4 or 5.

Towards the middle it's not that we forget about the Dragon sabre but nobody know where it is anymore, since the last lead are YSS and ZCS whom have died by suicide, and it's 'dishonorable' to force a dying kid to divulge XX's location. That's why ppl stopped looking for it until there's some new info, there's nothing they can do.

Heaven sword, people tend to forget since the verse about it is not about ruling the world but just fighting Dragon Sabre on equal footing. It's always more nice to own a sabre that can rule the world. And Heaven sword was held by Er Mei's headmaster mostly, it was only lost a few years back before Mie Jue become the headmaster. Er Mei also is just an okay sect, while Wudang leader has greater and better renown in the wulin world for their ability, even though both of them start at the same time. So, I think ppl assume there's no secret in Heaven sword that could give them an edge in being the greatest in the world, since Er Mei is not...great...just...okay...(sorry Er Mei fans:sweatingbullets:).  While Dragon Sabre was always changing owners.

 

I personally just dislike when a TV show/movies adaptation, you have to read the book again just to understand it. It's an adaptation, audiences should be able to understand without reading the source material that's the whole point of adaptation, if they can't understand the story then you just suck at adapting. I know JY firstly from the TVB adaptation, which I understand all the plot points even without reading the book. I then read the book just because I want to see how far or close they follow the book. If the audience wants to know more then they read the book, that's fine imho.

Give me a second. I am going to to read what you wrote. You wrote a lot of important things. I will respond to you after I read your amazing reply. You took your time to reply to me. Thank you. Please wait for me.

14 hours ago, kimmortal said:

 

To clarify, I didn’t say you need to watch other stuff to understand HSDS. I said if you want to have a deeper understanding of Jin Yong’s shared universe, watching all 4 series will satisfy that. Like Marvel’s Cinematic Universe—you can watch only Doctor Strange and still understand Doctor Strange, but if you want to know what people are talking about what they mention “the incidents in New York” then you’ll need to watch other movies in the MCU. Anyway, I digress.

 

I’ll try to answer your questions.

1) Wuji’s mother didn’t give up the sabre. She just couldn’t beat Xie Xun and she wanted to keep her life. Later on, it didn’t matter who had the sabre on Ice-Fire Island because her priorities changed. She picked love and family first.

2) 3rd Hero of Wudang is a good guy and Wudang is known for being a famously good sect whose disciples do good deeds. Wuji’s mother and uncle hurt him to get the sabre; they didn’t need to kill him. She didn’t want to sow further discord between Heavenly Sect and Wudang so she sends him back to Wudang using a delivery service so her identity wouldn’t be known.

3) He got attacked because the culprits wanted the dragon sabre. They guy 3rd Hero fought with last saw him protecting the man who had the sabre (who was later found dead) so it was obvious that the sabre was in 3rd hero’s hands. That’s why the culprit asks him, “is the sabre in the hands of the one surnamed Yin?” Since 3rd Hero was injured when they found him, they figure he lost the sabre to this Yin person. They tortured him so he would speak. He did not say anything. They left him crippled.

4) Yin Susu (Wuji’s mom) did not lie that she wanted to help him. She really was trying to send him back to his master. Those delivery guys were supposed to hand him straight to his master at Wudang temple, not to anyone else at the foot of the mountain. Those guys f—ked up.

5) Wuji got kidnapped because as soon as 5th Hero and Yin Susu was known to be back in Central Plains mainland, news travelled fast and everybody wanted to know where Xie Xun was so they could get dragon sabre. The people who kidnapped Wuji wanted to use him as leverage to get his parents to talk (and wanted to scare him into talking too).

6) Wuji got hit with the Ice Palm as a last resort, probably out of anger, because Grandmaster Zhang Sanfeng successfully got him back. They were just really pissed. Or maybe they thought the good guys would come begging for a cure and have to reveal Xie Xun’s whereabouts.

7) All the orthodox sects hate Ming sects because the government labelled Ming sect members as evil and called them the Devil Sect. Without knowing the root cause, naturally the people of the martial world believed in this nickname as well. And it didn’t help that Xie Xun, who was 1 of 4 protectors of Ming Sect, went around killing people of orthodox sects to force his master out of hiding. He caused more people to hate Ming Sect. Nobody knew the Ming Sect’s true mission statement.

8) Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the title of the series/novel doesn’t really matter. Both sword and sabre are just MacGuffins used so that we can start the story somewhere and then we actually follow the hero through his quests and “Hero’s Journey” and character development. The true story of HSDS is about washing away old grudges and joining together all the people of the martial arts world toward a common purpose: to restore the land of the Hans and drive away the Mongolians and overthrow the Yuan Dynasty. That was the true purpose of the sword and sabre when they were forged by Guo Jing and Huang Rong back when they were defending the country against invaders. That’s the mission statement of the Ming Cult. And within this rebellion, there’s the underlying theme of bad vs good and falling in love with the enemy. Zhang Cuisan and Yin Susu were on different sides (orthodox vs unorthodox sects) and then Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min (Han vs Mongolian).

 

Phew! I hope that was clear. I believe that most, if not all, of your questions were actually answered in the show, hence why I think this is a good adaptation. I’m actually surprised you didn’t ask more pertinent questions like what’s the origin of the 9 Yang Manual and what the heck was it doing inside a big monkey. Lol. That, I believe, was not answered well at all in this version, because Zhang Sanfeng skipped a lot of details in his story to Zhang Wuji. But never mind that. It’s just extra information that enhances the story but doesn’t change its outcome.

 

There’s a new forum about wuxia that just started for anybody who’s interested in having lengthy discussions about all things wuxia related: https://jianxia.smfnew2.com/index.php

You also wrote a lot of important things. I want to read it and give you a good reply. Please wait for me too. 

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6 hours ago, kimmortal said:

It just occured to me to wonder, does Zhao Min ever kill anybody?

 

I don't remember if it's in the novel or in this 2019 version, but Zhang Wuji once asks Zhao Min if she's ever killed anybody. And she answers, "Not Yet." Then continues saying that if somebody ever hurt her father or her brother she would kill them along with their friends and family. But she never does that, does she? Even after Ming Cult members premeditate and carry out the murder of her father, she never acts on these words to take revenge.

 

Thinking back, I can't remember seeing her kill anybody. Yes, she captures the 6 Major Sects and causes trouble at Wudang but that involves injuring and poisoning them to bring back to Wan An Temple. As we recall, Shaolin Temple has no bodies to show. The Shaolin monk whose head we see is probably killed by the traitorous monk who brings it over to Zhang Sanfeng.

 

On the Snake Spirit Island, she fights the Persians and might even slashes a few of them with her Yitian sword but does she kill them? Are they dead? I don't know.

 

Compare all this to the likes of Yin Li (who we know has at least one kill -- Chu whatever her name is -- under her belt) and Zhou Zhiruo who doesn't kill people at Guang Ming Peak (she hits them with the blunt or flat part of her sword--bless her), but then goes on to murder a whole bunch of Yuan soldiers on Snake Spirit Island and even suggests killing to silence the runaway soldiers back on mainland. Poor misguided Zhiruo...

 

In any case, you can argue that Zhao Min is high-ranking enough that she orders other people to do her deeds (kill people) and so these bodies rack up and count as her doing. But it's still interesting to note that when it comes to killing people first-hand, she does not do that. Is it cowardice? Or is it because she does not grow up in wulin and never gets desensitized to killing? I like to think the latter. Maybe I'm a bit biased but it says something to me that everyone calls her evil demoness and all that but she doesn't actually kill as many people as the typical wulin martial artist. She orders the chopping of people's fingers but what's a few fingers compared to actual lives? Her previous crimes are not as serious as people make it out to be.

 

I had an impression that ZM didn't really kill anyone except for maybe some persians as you mentioned, which is out of survival. In novel maybe she did but off hand i couldn't remember it, maybe anyone who read it recently can verify. 

 

Another thing i would like to emphasise is she Never Ever give excuse for what she did. She own up to what she did with no silly excuse, even if it is clear that she did everything for her country, she is just being loyal.

 

Some others may just go *oh i did that because its my teacher's order etc*

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A little bit of my thought about ZM.

I think what i like about ZM is her personality. I like every version ZM, not because the actress who played her character, but it because what the actress do to act ZM character. 

Her personality wins me. :wub: and YK act as ZM... Like best. Because in 2019 version..i still find that ZM is still a girl, despite her cleverness,  mature aspects and understanding of people character, in this version...i still feel a teenage girl who fall in love and i love that. She is strong but she also vulnerable. Cute ZM. :wub::grin:

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22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

ZWJ's mother did not give up the sabre, but the sabre was taken by Xie Xun, this is an wuxia story, strongest ppl always win, even if XX is blind he's ability and inner energy are a few level above WJ's parents.

 

Ok! This is my real reply!

 

My thoughts:

 

Thank you for explaining this part. I was so confused. So he was more powerful than Wujin's parents. So he got the sabre. I don't know what wuxia story means. But I believe you. So Wujin's parents have to follow him. They find the island. They share the island with Xie Xun. He becomes the godfather to Wujin. But they all leave. There is so much going on after Wujin's parents get to the island. Xie Xun still has the sabre. I wonder something. Why wasn't Wujin's father curious about the sabre?

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

Do you mean the 3rd brother of Wudang? She send him back to Wudang because she did not want to have more troubles with Wudang, she only paralyse him if 3rd brother can return to Wudang Zhang San Feng can cure him, but as you know 3rd brother met disaster before reaching Wudang. It was explained in one of the episode 5 or 6.

Ok. Thank you for explaining. Yes. I meant 3rd brother. Yes, you're right. It was explained in episode 5 or 6. But I still didn't understand. I just don't understand things. I'm sorry if I wasted your time. So she did try to cure him. I didn't get that either. You're right 3rd brother met the wrong people. They broke his arms and legs. Made me so sad. It's interesting. 3rd brother was really interested in the Dragon Sabre. But the story never talked about it. He saw a man die over the Dragon Sabre!

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

Wuji get kidnapped once the news that Yin Su Su and Zhang Cui Shan is back in mainland since they're the last known ppl and XX who are in the presence of the sabre. So that 'soldier' try to hold WJ hostage to blackmail his parents to disclose the location of XX.

Thank you for explaining this. So Wujin only got kidnapped because of XX. Wujin almost said where XX was. His mother slapped him. But she didn't mean to hurt him. She was just correcting him. So the guy who was holding him hostage pressed his palm against Wujin's back!

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

WJ did not have a disease but an injury that disrupt his internal energy, kind of like a cold energy that slowly saps his life. The 'soldier' injured him so he can run away from ZSF, since by himself he's not on the same level as ZSF ability.

Ok. I didn't know that. Thank you for correcting me. Hm. But the soldier who injured him injured him with a special technique, right? Maybe I'm lost.

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

All the orthodox sects hated Ming sect because of the secretive nature of Ming sect and XX. He indiscriminately kill anybody to force Cheng Kun to comes out and face him, it was explained during the assault on Bright Peak, episode 19 or 20 I think and XX's past in episode 4 or 5.

Ok. Thank you for explaining. Again, I did not know this was explained in episodes 4 or 5. I didn't understand episode 19 or 20. I forget his name. But he kidnapped the girl. I don't remember her name either. She was the favorite in her sect.  And he said he loved her. I don't think he was a bad person. And he was part of Ming sect. Wujin gave the child to him too. I meant he didn't seem like a bad person.

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

Towards the middle it's not that we forget about the Dragon sabre but nobody know where it is anymore, since the last lead are YSS and ZCS whom have died by suicide, and it's 'dishonorable' to force a dying kid to divulge XX's location. That's why ppl stopped looking for it until there's some new info, there's nothing they can do.

Ok.

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

Heaven sword, people tend to forget since the verse about it is not about ruling the world but just fighting Dragon Sabre on equal footing. It's always more nice to own a sabre that can rule the world. And Heaven sword was held by Er Mei's headmaster mostly, it was only lost a few years back before Mie Jue become the headmaster. Er Mei also is just an okay sect, while Wudang leader has greater and better renown in the wulin world for their ability, even though both of them start at the same time. So, I think ppl assume there's no secret in Heaven sword that could give them an edge in being the greatest in the world, since Er Mei is not...great...just...okay...(sorry Er Mei fans:sweatingbullets:).  While Dragon Sabre was always changing owners.

Ok  Thank you for explaining. I was confused about how much power Er Mei sect had too.

 

22 hours ago, kur4p1k4 said:

I personally just dislike when a TV show/movies adaptation, you have to read the book again just to understand it. It's an adaptation, audiences should be able to understand without reading the source material that's the whole point of adaptation, if they can't understand the story then you just suck at adapting. I know JY firstly from the TVB adaptation, which I understand all the plot points even without reading the book. I then read the book just because I want to see how far or close they follow the book. If the audience wants to know more then they read the book, that's fine imho.

So you dislike the TV show/movies adaptations! Ok. Well, they always say the book is better! Is the book in english? I'm glad you read the book! I understand why you are so good at explaining everything! Good job! You're right. The audience should read the book if they want to find out more. I haven't read the book. I did like the TV adaptation. I feel like it was the show I was looking for. I had a fun time watching it. I had fun learning clues and secrets. And I had fun following Wujin's journey!

 

Edit: @polar15 My reply to you is next!

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@kimmortal

 

I think the 2009 version had that scene where ZM said she never killed anyone to Wuji,  if I remember correctly.

 

Now, I know that ZM dynasty had done a lot of things that eroded the trusts of the people,  and I wont justify those. This is strictly about ZM character in my opinion :). She has flaws, she has done wrong things,  but at the end of the day,  most her actions were done for her dynasty. I also don't remember if she ever intentionally killed anyone. 

 

I also agree with Lauren. Plus,  I also don't think cowardice fits ZM character. To think about it,  she's a leader for her vassals/subordinates,  and just like most leaders,  she has to make sure that she comes up with plans/strategies that can benefit the cause she's fighting for. She's like the brain that keeps the efforts going. Sure she has dozens and dozens of people doing the deeds, just like most leaders do I would think,  but she woman up and owns her decisions. As Lauren said,  she didn't throw others under the bus for what her subordinates did. She acknowledged their actions and took responsibilities. Even ready to own up the evil things done by her subordinate long before she was born.

 

When her vassals were down,  she insisted to give them proper burial,  showing that she actually cared about them.  That's definitely not a coward in my book B)(perhaps I am biased?  But definitely not coward though haha) 

 

You raised up an interesting aspect about HSDS,  which is how some characters are quite gray.  The bad not necessarily evil while those that comes from good sect are not necessarily better. Examples of don't judge the book by its cover.

 

Looking back, I think Wan An temple was one (only?)  grander scheme that ZM plotted. ZM is someone who knows clearly what her goal is,  and she focused on that goal. I personally don't think she let her personal emotional state affect her schemes too much  (there are some influences, of course, but when it comes to reaching her goals,  she focused all the actions to reach this goal, instead of reaching the goal plus carried out personal vendetta againts love rivals to get the person she wanted, or to get her hands on the previous sabre, for examples).

 

Her goal is to ensure her dynasty could survive. The main heroes and heroines from the major sects were the biggest threats for her dynasty. Once she got them,  she could opt to eliminate them and greatly reduced the power of her dynasty's opponent. If not,  when it's clear that those heroes/heroines would not join the government, she could eliminate them.

 

But she didn't. Instead of ordering them to be killed after their staunch refusals,  she still didn't want to kill them. It shows that she actually has a kinder heart that would prefer to avoid any killing if she could. Unfortunately, when it comes to long battles against two warring sides,  like circumstances that she was caught in,  there will be victims, and the two sides would have opposite views on what constitutes as evil doings. 

 

I personally even think ZM's heart is more compassionate than those so called disciples of good sects, whose outer experience exude meek demeanor, benevolence, and kindness but deep inside hid hearts capable of commiting murders for the sake of getting his/her/their hand(s) on the sword and sabre, and/or to bring glory to himself/herself/their sects. The hypocrisy of those "good heroes/heroines," calling ZM "evil demoness" when they themselves had done worse thing than her (e.g. murdering people just because of a sword and a sabre) sometimes really grated me :sweatingbullets:.

 

@polar15

Agree!!  I also really like how this ZM is both strong yet vulnerable at the same time. She's still a young girl at the end of the day,  but her courage to face such a big obstacles are amazing.  :wub:

 

@Mr Horse

If you are interested to watch the 2009 version,  there used to be episodes with eng sub published in YouTube. But gotta say though, I was super hyped when I knew there would be another version of HSDS coming out, but was very dissapointed with the overall editing of the series. Plus they used a lot of yellow/blue tones that for me make the series seem on dreary side for me. Gotta say, for me,  Zhang San Feng in this 2009 is the most formidable and most charismatic ZSF among all versions I watched. 

 

 

Peace all:)

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@2handsintertwined Ok wait I think I have to explain something, I apologise for assuming you're familiar with "Wuxia" story. Wuxia story in the simplest meaning is a story about martial artist and their journey around China, it also has a certain code and honor that is inbuilt in the world of "wuxia" genre, since the Chinese character for it is 武侠 --> 武(Wu) means martial/military; 侠 (Xia) means hero/chivalrous/brave.

That's why in most wuxia genre the conflict that arise between characters is about what constitutes as honorable conducts/life. In Wuxia story it usually have different schools and sect with their own teachings and martial art secrets that must be guarded. You cannot learn a school's martial art unless you're the disciple of the school. It constitutes a dishonorable conduct to steal a school's martial art book.

 

I also would really like to know which YT sub you watched? Because I feel like you missed a lot of important information from the first 12 episodes at least.

I hope for your 2nd rewatch it's from this one, this one has the better English sub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ros_wHjgdE&list=PLuyfcUjDE--TshpquRKPFbLXr0mTBazWy

 

I'll also try to explain the few characters, because it feels like you mixed up some characters

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This guy on the picture above is Xie Xun (XX) his nickname is Gold Haired Lion King from Ming sect, he's Zhang Wuji's (ZWJ) godfather

 

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The guy on the left is Yang Xiao (YX) he's the Left-messenger of the Ming sect's leader, he's like the vice president of the sect.

The girl on the right is Ji Xiaofu (JXF) she's an Er Mei disciple also Yang Buhui's (YBH) mother

 

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This lady is the 3rd Headmaster of Er Mei, Mie Jue Shi Tai (MJST). Her favourite disciples are JXF and Zhou Zhiruo (ZZR)

 

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This monk, his Buddhist name is Yuan Zhen (YZ), his original name is Cheng Kun (CK), he's XX's master and one of the main antagonist.

 

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This handsome guy is the 33rd leader of Ming sect, Yang Dingtian (YDT) who died before the series start. ZWJ will become the 34th leader of Ming sect later on after the Bright Peak arc finished.

The lady that's sitting below him is YDT's wife and also CK's martial sister (if you're martial brother/sister it means you're from the same school or have the same teacher).

 

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This guy is the 'soldier' in disguise that kidnapped ZWJ. He has a martial skill called "Xuanming Divine Palm" that injured ZWJ for most of his childhood. He's called He Biweng (HBW) or if he's with his martial brother then both of them together are called Xuanming Elders.

 

I would also like to say that I told you the episodes number not because I think you're bothersome or anything, but I've been in other forum where other people do not like to be told the story, they rather know the episodes number and then they can watch it themselves if they missed any information. So, I'm sorry if I offended you :(

 

5 hours ago, 2handsintertwined said:

Thank you for explaining this part. I was so confused. So he was more powerful than Wujin's parents. So he got the sabre. I don't know what wuxia story means. But I believe you. So Wujin's parents have to follow him. They find the island. They share the island with Xie Xun. He becomes the godfather to Wujin. But they all leave. There is so much going on after Wujin's parents get to the island. Xie Xun still has the sabre. I wonder something. Why wasn't Wujin's father curious about the sabre?

Even though the Sabre is powerful that does not mean everyone wants it. For example, the most famous franchise currently is Marvel Avengers' Universe but that does not mean everybody care about it, I'm pretty sure you know somebody that could not give a damn about Marvel, even if you give them a free ticket to watch the movie, they rather watch something else. To ZWJ's father to become the most powerful and ruler of the world is not important at all to him, imho.

 

5 hours ago, 2handsintertwined said:

Ok. I didn't know that. Thank you for correcting me. Hm. But the soldier who injured him injured him with a special technique, right? Maybe I'm lost.

Yes, ZWJ got hit by a special skill called "Xuanming Divine Palm", which pretty much disrupt his Yin energy. In Chinese literature/medicine it was hypothesize that human has Yin (cold) and Yang (hot) inside us. Xuanming Divine Palm is 'cold' based skill that's why ZWJ when he was a child was always cold and he could only be cured if he could learn Nine Yang manual skill, since Nine Yang is 'hot' based. Ah, but this is based on my memory when I went to Tao school as a kid , it might be the wrong explanation, don't take it as the absolute truth.

 

5 hours ago, 2handsintertwined said:

Ok. Thank you for explaining. Again, I did not know this was explained in episodes 4 or 5. I didn't understand episode 19 or 20. I forget his name. But he kidnapped the girl. I don't remember her name either. She was the favorite in her sect.  And he said he loved her. I don't think he was a bad person. And he was part of Ming sect. Wujin gave the child to him too. I meant he didn't seem like a bad person.

This one I think you're confusing YX and XX.

YX is the one who held the Er Mei's disciple, JXF as hostage during the confrontation at the inn during episode 4. And yes JXF was supposed to be the next Headmaster of Er Mei, but because she fell in love with YX and has his daughter she never went back to Er Mei even though she's also not together with YX.

MJST has an old grudge with YX, since she accused YX of killing her fiancee and stealing the Heaven Sword. Even though YX denied all that since YX is already strong by himself, to him Heaven sword is useless to him. This all happened around episode 4 and 5.

Later on around episode 11 or 12 ZWJ will fulfill JXF last request and send her daughter to YX.

YX is not a bad person, he's just unorthodox.

 

5 hours ago, 2handsintertwined said:

 

So you dislike the TV show/movies adaptations! Ok. Well, they always say the book is better! Is the book in english? I'm glad you read the book! I understand why you are so good at explaining everything! Good job! You're right. The audience should read the book if they want to find out more. I haven't read the book. I did like the TV adaptation. I feel like it was the show I was looking for. I had a fun time watching it. I had fun learning clues and secrets. And I had fun following Wujin's journey!

I actually love this adaptation a lot, there are some parts I'm unhappy about but overall it's a good drama.

 

The thing I dislike is when a TV/movie adaptation cannot tell their story properly and the solution is to read the book <_<. For me personally that means the scriptwriter/director/editor did a bad job in adapting.

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