[Drama 2018] Life 라이프

[bedifferent]

On 8/22/2018 at 8:28 AM, 1ouise said:

 

• I see Gu ending up being one of the good guys.  YAY!
• I hope the on-site custodians' housing will be for the Pioneers.  (Was it written into the contract? )

 

Yes, he will.    I'm betting on a Seon-woo and Seung-Hyo love line in the future.  Both have good rapport and have respect for each other.  Dr. Kim will fight his dismissal fiercely so expect Seon-woo to be dragged back into his case.  Plus, SW may need orthopedic surgery soon so i suspect they will meet again under different circumstances.  I'm hoping by the end, both will find a way to work together cuz I find Seon-woo be the one to help president Goo find the true meaning of his career.  

 

Ohhhh, good observation. He's saving a part of the land parcel for the grandpa and grandma. 

 

6 hours ago, dancingbee said:

Hello everyone.

I am on Ep 10 around 42 min. I've been trying to figure it out what Dr. No El replies to President Gu about the result of the votes in Switzerland on the issue of the nuclear waste plant that concerns the debate between morale and money.  She mentions that after the Swiss government gave incentives, more population voted it down. That is kind of contradicting to the incentive-driven concept. Could someone clarify what Dr. No El says? 

 

This is what I understand from the story.  Please correct me if I am wrong or missed something.

 

A town in Switzerland voted to build a nuclear waste repository.  At first, they voted 60% to build since it is the right thing to do for the country. They stepped up and agreed out of a sense of responsibility. The government then stepped in and offered monetary compensation thinking this will further motivate or reward those support the build.  However, the town voted again and the approval dropped to 25%.  The townspeople went from not placing any value on their selfless act to associating their action with monetary value.  Now that their votes have a tangible value, they don't want to give it away freely anymore.  Their priorities will be fo themselves first.

 

The physicians will have the same dilemma when it comes to pay per performance bonus.  Instead of doing the right things, they will look for procedures that will give them the highest bonus.  They will drift away from wanting to do everything for the good of the patient to one that will benefit them first. 

 

[bedifferent]

1 hour ago, msaamia said:

So I went ahead and did some research - if you combine upper body exercise with passive range of motion, you get better results in increasing blood flow to the body. Usually the exercise is moderate intensity and should be done in intervals. 

 

@denny posted above : elastic stockings- I do believe these are dangerous for T6 and above SCI patients due to Autonomic Dysreflexia -  which is sudden onset of abnormally high blood pressure, and can occur due tight clothing/stockings, impaction in bowel, bladder, pressure injuries. You must immediately put them up, and take control of the cause- loosen the clothing, empty bladder, disimpact stool, medically manage BP. 

 

But the rest of @denny suggested above  are accurate from what I have learned in school!

 

Dr. Joo didn't confirm whether SW's valve is damaged but he has ruled out surgery since that is not going to remove the main cause.  We are looking at increasing blood circulation right?  Seon-woo has been doing upper body strength with the weights.  He was watching the TV shows about underwater turtles (?) so I am thinking maybe some aquatic therapy could help as well?

 

He also worried about serious thrombotic events that could be fatal so has encouraged Seon-woo to make a decision about his amputation.  He reminded him of how much his mom would be in pain if a serious event would to happen.  

 

JSW needs to bottle his energy. 

 

 

 

More JSW goodness under spoiler tag

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

[bedifferent]

[SPOILERS!!!][Life Roundup] Episode 9 + 10

 

Original Source (TV Report via Naver): 'Life' Breaks its own highest ratings record, Cho Seung Woo x Yoo Jae Myung's handshake is the best minute

 

2. [+305, -9] Everyone's acting is the best, seriously

 

3. [+172, -5] The handshake was a preying handshake kyahhh that's insane

 

4. [+178, -36] I feel like right now, 'Mr. Sunshine' and 'Life' are the two top ㄷㄷ 

 

5. [+117, -4] Seriously, it's not even a thriller but you get anxious and it's a high quality drama that makes your palms sweaty...bb

 

Original Source (Sports DongA via Naver): 'Life' Moon So Ri becomes the director...Begins game with Cho Seung Woo

 

1. [+154, -2] Oh Se Hwa (Moon So Ri) is Goo Seung Hyo (Cho Seung Woo)'s plan's tool, I feel like Joo Kyung Moon (Yoo Jae Myung) is going to become the director

 

2. [+34, -0] ㅎㅎㅎㅎ They're both really funny ㅋㅋㅋ

 

3. [+28, -4] I've been spoiled richard simmons

 

4. [+13, -1] At the end, is Se Hwa also hungry for fame... I feel hella bad for the other doctors  

 

https://ddoboja.blogspot.com/2018/08/spoilerslife-roundup-episode-9-10.html

 

[HanCinema's Drama Review] "Life" Episode 9

By Vasia Orion on 2018/08/21 at 16:14 PST

 

 

There is no helping those who will not help themselves, and the elite of Sangkook University Hospital are too busy fighting over the Director position to care about what it will mean for their organization. Jin-woo's newfound confidence pushes him a little further, which motivates Kyeong-moon to take a stand that is about to turn sour. Will our young doctor finally stop expecting others to make the sacrifices he should be partially shouldering himself?

 

It has never been more urgent for Jin-woo (Lee Dong-wook) to step into the spotlight and fight back, but I wonder if he has the nerves for it at this time. As an observer, I want to throw his words about cowardice and escape directed at Kyeong-moon (Yoo Jae-myung) right back at him. This is the ultimate moment of entitlement for our hero, because he demands that someone enters a battle only few are willing to fight alongside him in the open.

 

Seung-hyo's (Cho Seung-woo) underhanded method of knocking Kyeong-moon's image down can only be countered by Jin-woo's admission that this decision was made to protect him as the whistleblower, but that is probably something Kyeong-moon himself would not accept as a sacrifice. It is an interesting take on power struggles and morality, because those with good ethics often fail to acquire power due to the inherently nasty nature its accumulation demands.

 

More than the result of this vote, however, it is the changes it might bring in how Jin-woo and his allies handle this resistance that intrigue me. I am also enjoying all the different approaches being utilized. No-eul (Won Jin-ah) appeals to an individual's humanity, and Seon-woo (Lee Kyu-hyung) appeals to that individual's business sense and sense of duty. Jin-woo is the only one who does not consider long-term solutions, which is why his methods have so far failed.

 

This approach of diving into characters is one that pleases me. "Life" was off to a shaky start on that front, but it has begun placing gravity on the people who make up a system, rather than the nature of that system alone. One could argue, as I have earlier, that this approach is perhaps too dramatic and personal for a story about hospital politics, but this is fiction, and fiction needs characters to lean on, even if they come with some more marketable traits.

 

Writer Lee Soo-yeon-I's "Secret Forest" was a whodunnit murder mystery, but if a workplace drama like her "Life" were to remain more plot- than character-focused, it would have made for a boring show. When the focus is a field of life and death, it only makes sense that one explores the individuals governing it for all their flaws and virtues, for all the parts of their character that aid or hinder them in keeping that field working. "Life" is doing that well so far.

 

"Life" is directed by Hong Jong-chan and Lim Hyeon-wook , written by Lee Soo-yeon-I, and features Lee Dong-wook, Cho Seung-woo, Won Jin-ah and Yoo Jae-myung.

Written by: Orion from 'Orion's Ramblings'

 

Source: HanCinema

[40somethingahjumma]

I've only just had the time to look at this only because I've had my hands full with C dramas of late.  But it's on Netflix and it's a genre I'm rather fond of... not to mention there are a few familiar faces that I'm keen to see on the screen again.  I haven't seen LDW in anything since Blademan... feels like ancient history. Amused to hear that he's a Dr Ye... the second one this year.  Always happy to see Lee Kyu Hung from Stranger and Prison Playbook. I can see how he and LDW can pass off as brothers. Yoo Jae Myung of course, who is amazing always. CSW, I think, is especially good in this. I like him much more here than in Stranger actually. He's playing a much more complex character here and he does it so very well. There are times I want to throttle GSH for his smug pragmatism but there's no denying it's a great performance.

 

Fascinating show and highly intriguing approach to the age old controversies over health care funding. I don't see any simple answers to this. I can't see how health care can be run like any other big business ... as if all businesses are the same anyway... but I don't see how governments can keep funding escalating health costs from taxation alone. It's such a hot button issue even in places where healthcare is generally good and readily available because it goes to very heart of how we see ourselves as a society... whether we see ourselves as a people that prioritize human life over financial gain and whether it is ever possible to completely erase the inequities of our social systems. We balk at the thought of a user-pays system because we think well a person shouldn't have good health care only because they can afford it. But then when the governments pays for our health care, the government also has the power to curb our freedom... to tell us how to live, what we can eat or drink or smoke... after all, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Ever. 

 

When GSH looks at the numbers, talks about relocation, looks at medical equipment to determine how costs can be cut, tweaking around the edges, it hits a nerve. Eye rolls all around. The staff meetings, the arguments going back and forth... I've heard it all. Made some of the same ones myself. I have no experience with the healthcare industry but I worked in a government-funded organization for 5 1/2 years in education and guess what... they tried to run it like a business too with no notion of the complexity of the client base despite paying lip service to staff consultation. There was/is so much of a disconnect between the decision makers and what really goes on at the grassroots level. To cut costs, more and more of the people who do the grunt work find themselves drowning in administrivia on top of everything else. The absurdity of the situation is beyond belief. I used to say... and say often was that the higher-ups (directors, managers and politicians) needed to get their rear ends down in the classrooms for a week, follow XYZ teachers around for at least to see how difficult things can get.

 

This is why as a rule I don't watch office dramas... because I watch dramas to as a diversion not to relive work and experience an increase in blood pressure.  

 

All that said and ranted...  the show looks intriguing especially the question of why the late director was diddling the books, as it were... He seemed to be a caring physician and was going to bat for the hospital regarding the changes. The staff loved him for a reason.

 

 

[bedifferent]

@40somethingahjumma  Hi. Welcome to the thread, glad you are joining us!  Are you all caught up to episode 10?

 

Hah. The stripes on the props.  It came to me guys.  Black and white.  Life is not all black and white.  Good vs. bad or both.

 

Symmetry. The lights, their positions across the room, the stripe pillow smack in the middle.   Are they enemies or just mirror images of one another?

 

jtbc

[staygold]

1 hour ago, bedifferent said:

The stripes on the props.  It came to me guys.  Black and white.  Life is not all black and white.  Good vs. bad or both.

 

Symmetry. The lights, their positions across the room, the stripe pillow smack in the middle.   Are they enemies or just mirror images of one another?

 

It looked like a dungeon in earlier eps. There has been more light in his office every passing eps! 

[bedifferent]

@staygold  need more light here too!  Brothers 

 

 

Spoiler

 

The OR is a popular meeting place.  In preview, it was revealed that Jin-woo knows the second victim somehow...  

 

 

Spoiler

 

Hmmm, why no defibrillator in this code? 

 

 

 

I hope they agree to disagree on less important matters in the future.  They would make a great team.

 

 

We all have bills to pay.

 

 

Shooting hearts.  Sunwoo just needs someone to greet him with a smile at least once.

 

 

 

 

Prez and his dungeon.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Seung-Hyo and his elevator.

 

 

 

@tzupi this is for you. Love your posts by the way.  Come by more. 

 

Spoiler

 

I like that she "directs" in heels and dress.

 

Credit:  JTBC

[bedifferent]

9 hours ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

 

Fascinating show and highly intriguing approach to the age old controversies over health care funding. I don't see any simple answers to this. I can't see how health care can be run like any other big business ... as if all businesses are the same anyway... but I don't see how governments can keep funding escalating health costs from taxation alone. It's such a hot button issue even in places where healthcare is generally good and readily available because it goes to very heart of how we see ourselves as a society... whether we see ourselves as a people that prioritize human life over financial gain and whether it is ever possible to completely erase the inequities of our social systems. We balk at the thought of a user-pays system because we think well a person shouldn't have good health care only because they can afford it. But then when the governments pays for our health care, the government also has the power to curb our freedom... to tell us how to live, what we can eat or drink or smoke... after all, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Ever. 

 

When GSH looks at the numbers, talks about relocation, looks at medical equipment to determine how costs can be cut, tweaking around the edges, it hits a nerve. Eye rolls all around. The staff meetings, the arguments going back and forth... I've heard it all. Made some of the same ones myself. I have no experience with the healthcare industry but I worked in a government-funded organization for 5 1/2 years in education and guess what... they tried to run it like a business too with no notion of the complexity of the client base despite paying lip service to staff consultation. There was/is so much of a disconnect between the decision makers and what really goes on at the grassroots level. To cut costs, more and more of the people who do the grunt work find themselves drowning in administrivia on top of everything else. The absurdity of the situation is beyond belief. I used to say... and say often was that the higher-ups (directors, managers and politicians) needed to get their rear ends down in the classrooms for a week, follow XYZ teachers around for at least to see how difficult things can get.

 

 

Heh... Administrators are evil people yeah? Such is the popular opinion by many.  

 

The healthcare industry, where saving and healing people must take precedent over everything else, defies all logics of a business model.  There's no question, we are going to have to spend money to treat patients.  For many years, it has always been the right thing to pump money into the system hopefully faster than the system is draining because we have the obligation as a society to treat everyone.  It also asks us as responsible and caring people to share the costs with those who are less fortunate in the form of taxation and government assistance.  Well guess what, the well is running dry as our population grows and ages.  The right to healthcare is now not necessary a universal right, we have to earn or pay to get access.  Where does that leave the lower income or indigent patients?  Do we have the duty as a society member or physicians to cast aside our own personal needs to move to a rural county to provide care for people who cannot afford it?  Dr. Joo seems to be caught in this dilemma.  He admitted his desire to return to his hometown is not realistic because he doesn't have the proper facility or personnel to practice there.  He was very passionate in the beginning about how unbalance the funding/budget is.  The government has to step up to give this issue a higher priority.  Well, easier said than done with multiple interest groups diving what is available and running the lobbyists, government officials.  The situation is pitting one society group against another.  Like No-Eul said, the success of our healthcare system depends on our moral obligation to do the right thing for others.  

 

Life is remarkably well written in the way it throws out points for us to ponder and presents  many sides of the arguments.  The physicians are real with relatable needs, strengths and weaknesses.  At the presscon, I think it was JSW who described his character as an antigen to Jin-woo's antibodies.  Seung-Hyon, bringing on his own interests with the restructure team, forces the hospital to take a look at their own practices.  We have already seen how it is not perfect and fault-proof as patients think.  The system is fallible because the physicians are humans who project their virtues and vices like everyone of us.  It says a lot about the state of our healthcare system and the physicians to make the "bad" money-conscious Seung-Hyo looks outright decent sometimes.

[40somethingahjumma]

9 hours ago, bedifferent said:

@40somethingahjumma  Hi. Welcome to the thread, glad you are joining us!  Are you all caught up to episode 10?

No not yet, dear. Only up to the first half of Episode 3... 

So yeah, I'm really behind everyone... sorry about chiming in at this late hour and ranting about things that you've probably flogged to death about already.  I'm trying to keep myself spoiler free as much as possible so I can enjoy the surprising aspects of the show properly.

 

5 hours ago, bedifferent said:

 

Heh... Administrators are evil people yeah? Such is the popular opinion by many.  

 

Despite what I said earlier, I don't demonize administrators although I grant you that it has become the fashion to do so.  For good reason... in my experience. I work with people as best as I can even if philosophically and methodologically we don't see eye to eye. But my point that they all seem to work from a common playbook stands, I think. As far as I can tell, many administrators in recent years are really their own worst enemies. Some of it obviously comes from having to play politics (I can see that GHS is not past brownnosing) and some of it probably from trying to survive the onslaught bureaucracy... checking off lists and being audited to the hilt. Everyone's trying to survive as best as they can and hold on to their jobs but the people at the bottom of the food chain are the ones that bear the brunt of poor management with the threat of losing their jobs hanging over their heads. Far be it for me to tar every administrator with the same brush  but it's evident that many are far better in managing cost and paperwork than they are people.

 

One of the underlying problems I see with all of this is the attempt to run non-profit organizations like businesses by people who have no notion either of how to run a business or by people (like GHS) who have no notion of what the "business" entails. People who might be successful in one area of the commercial world don't always have a good grasp of the complexity of another industry that they've been asked to restructure or revamp and they come bulldozing in with their own brand of wide-eyed idealism. 

 

I don't disagree that GHS has a point or two... but even a broken clock is right twice a day... but he doesn't attempt to prosecute his case well nor does he seem to care to. He comes into an organization with all his business know-how in logistics and comes into an already hostile environment all guns ablazing ready to save the day without knowing what it is exactly he needs to be saving. That's the kind of attitude that gets people's backs up and on the defensive. "It's my way or the highway..." He prattles on about productivity without also considering morale and other affective factors. There's not even any attempt to consult with the staff and see what goes on in the coalface. Which I think is a fairly accurate depiction of many workplaces from conversations I've had with many people in the past.

 

I think Life is more of a workplace drama than a medical one so far. But there's certainly at least two main things going on... one is the issue of universal health care and the other is on how workplace disputes are dealt with.

 

I'm not a healthcare idealist by any stretch of the imagination. My own belief is that everyone including those with the lowest income should contribute something to healthcare system regularly. In that way everyone has a stake in it and they take some measure of responsibility for their own health especially in prevention. If it wasn't so tragic it would be amusing irony that the former director of the hospital who is a doctor was an inveterate smoker and drinker who in all probability fell to his death because of the lack of self-care. A lot more emphasis really needs to be on preventive care than on the patching up of people. So much alcohol is being imbibed in these dramas to relieve stress and people are being inordinately pressured to consume alcohol in social functions when alcoholism is such a serious social problem on top of all other health problems it leads to. None of this can be good in the long run and I think it's a good example of how wholesale cultural changes need to be made rather than trying to deal with things by throwing money around once the horse has bolted.

[abyssal]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:16 AM, piekeboeboe said:

 "I did not end up at last position. so that I did not disappoint for our department much, didn't i?" 

Ikr he's darn cute, but I think, honestly that's one reason why I'm not sure he would make a good director. He's very soft - up against Goo, I don't think he can actually push for ethical standards or resist effectively to even do the job he would have been placed there to do ie. protect the doctors.

That said, I am interested in seeing his presentation, his and Dr. (oops, Director) Oh's presentation on how they want to fix the hospital.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 1:41 PM, bebebisous33 said:

Just like I expected it from her, she uses her position for her own career and own benefit (her own department). She is supposed to represent all departments at the hospital which she doesn't. She is not really different from KTS in the end. She is an elitist person who looks down on others. Her deal with Gu only helps her and her own need. 

 bebe, you've given us lots of cool ideas to think about below, but particularly on the 3d machine's end, I don't think it benefits only her.

Of course, no one can deny that Director Oh is crazy ambitious, but it's in part the nature of Neurosurgery and to a smaller extent, surgery.

I don't know how fast that machine can work, but the machine replicates organs for surgeons to trial and test out how to operate before major surgeries. Neurosurgery (and again, surgery) is risky, but neurosurgery even more so. Poke a little nerve wrong and the patient can be paralyzed for life.

 

The machine benefits her and her surgeries but also that of (if no one else) her patients. But bear in mind, neurosurgery cases can take days at a time (legit, the doctors swap out in the middle), with the surgeons spending hours not operating, but just exposing the correct part of the brain to operate. They can't risk things.

 

That said, I do think the machine will help other departments as well, those working on high-risk surgeries would likely use them as well, not to mention students (this is a teaching hospital) will get actual experience - I very much doubt they use real human organs to experiment on since those are in short supply.

On 8/22/2018 at 2:00 PM, dzareth said:

In healthcare, would anyone want to settle for less than the best?

^

On 8/22/2018 at 2:00 PM, dzareth said:

I'm still puzzled at who fits the characteristics of a "good" person in this hospital

If we do black-white terms, I'll just say Dr. Joo and Jin Woo? But tbh wait till the next episode and they'll do something questionable and we'll be stuck again

 

On 8/22/2018 at 2:00 PM, dzareth said:

Not all of those wearing the white coat are those with a heart of gold (no offense...) because at the end of the day we are all humans who are motivated by different things.

(oh my they made me split my reply up)

But this, I have to say, honestly it's true, that's kind of the problem once profit and money comes into a picture. Like people who do community involvement. Do they love the community or is it just for a resume? Does it matter as long as society benefits? Questions...

 

On 8/22/2018 at 2:44 PM, annagriss8 said:

d like him to somehow get to work together with JW and Dr Joo - the "good" guys in the hospital.

I want it tooo 6 more episodes it can happen: Maybe to uncover the truth behind the previous director's death?

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:05 PM, tzupi said:

The 3D biosimulator does not help only the neurosurgery department. As she explained, the machine can make 3D replicas of many organs. It probably helps most of the surgery departments. So I do not see how she can advance only her position.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:05 PM, tzupi said:

Dr. Oh is ambitious, but what's wrong with that? The director is ambitious but nobody faults him for that. Some people have said that she yells all the time. I did not notice that, in fact, she seems to be well liked by people in her department I also see her defensive because I see her fighting the sexism of her male coworkers

^^^^^ @tzupi OmO Where have you been all this time gosh yes I agree! Okay tbh yes, maybe it's a little of my bias that I love strong female characters regardless of ethics. I can't say selling the insurance is okay, but if the director is going to do it anyway (regardless, obv, looking at Goo he's that kind of person) at least she reaped some indirect benefit for the patients as well. Without her, nothing better could have happened.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:05 PM, tzupi said:

When I see doctor Joon Kyung Moon, because he is so overworked and so bad at distributing tasks to his subalterns (as the discussion in one of the last episodes show), I see a mistake in the happening. Realistically, JKH is a danger: it is so easy for him to make a mistake during an operation.

 I see your point here too, but ohno not Dr. Joo that will be so sad (honestly lol I'm surprised nothing has happened to any of his patients. Additionally I doubt it's just he's bad at distribution but that because he's not from the same school, his subs might not even listen to him well so he can't really trust them)

 

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:37 PM, bebebisous33 said:

Moreover, I remember clearly that she read an article about this machine that was linked to a brain surgery. So her real purpose is to get the 3D stimulator and announce a special surgery so that she can get recognition. She wants to get famous, maybe perform some special brain surgery for the first time in SK. Yes, this could be good, nevertheless I sense that that kind of surgery could be used for foreigners or rich people...

(Ah... I think the limit is on the number of quotes in a reply, but, what to do? Y'all have so many interesting thoughts!!)

 

Hmmm I didn't think of it like that, but certainly, it is very possible Dr Oh wants to use it to enable herself to gain more fame. But, I doubt that it will be specifically for rich/foreigners type of thing. The nature of neurosurgery is specific to diseases and disorders in the nervous system, there aren't (m?)any opt-in surgeries for neurosurgery that help like plastic surgery would. So, while it's true that the cost may be high, patients in neurosurgery are never there because they want it, but because of need. Whether she will discriminate base on status... we'll see later. For now, I keep my hope in her being a generally professional person.

 

She rejects the homeless and those who attempt suicide, whilst Dr Joo doesn't ever. That's one big contrast between them that we can consider in discussing her character as well.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:37 PM, bebebisous33 said:

I am myself a teacher and I see it as my duty to support all students, especially the weaker ones as they need more aid and encouragement. Usually, some of them work even harder than the smarter ones. Hardworking should be the criteria and not just talent.

Ah... I see! It's... it's quite comforting to know teachers can think like that. For students like me, it's great to hear, but sometimes I don't think so myself. It's as if giving the 'top in level prize' to the student who worked the hardest but didn't score as high as another. It's not what they want.

Particularly for doctors, there's a reason why their passing grade isn't just 50%, can't be that they kill half their patients right? I think for Director Oh, her version of love is tough love. She's afraid that her kids will go out and kill people if she's not tough on them. They can work hard but if they don't save people they cannot be doctors. 

 

On 8/22/2018 at 6:37 PM, bebebisous33 said:

Finally, there is a huge difference between OSW and LBH.

Sorry can't help myself but uh, we're also suspecting LBH of embezzlement and fraud
 

On 8/22/2018 at 8:08 PM, tzupi said:

Dr. Oh picks her interns based on merit. This is what she must do, because she has a duty to give her patients the best care, which she does by working with the best people she can find.

^ I realised this summarises my long chunk above :')  Talent and hard work are considered together, to guess where a student will plateau to decide who gets in, but hard work alone does not get places further than talent and hard work

 

On 8/22/2018 at 8:38 PM, bebebisous33 said:

Isn't she responsible if they are less good doctors in the end?

Hmm well this way, she's also responsible if there are many bad doctors, right? In one sense she's covering her own a*s, but she's also protecting the patients

On 8/22/2018 at 8:38 PM, bebebisous33 said:

By the way, I didn't like the way she is teaching... the students made mistakes and they had to leave the class.

I don't think he left at the end, but yes, it is implied? That said, the way she talked about it made it sound like they should have known, and after it (with that kid still at the front) she re-lectured them on the thing again, telling them what to look out for. Additionally, none of the other students reacted (perhaps a loss of nuance by the writer) in a negative light, they were all chastised together.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 8:38 PM, bebebisous33 said:

Notice that Dr. Joo is treating his students differently. It is quite the opposite. He supports them, give them good advice, knows their weaknesses and helped them to improve their skills. Dr. Joo gave the intern the opportunity to do a certain surgery.

3

On 8/22/2018 at 10:24 PM, bebebisous33 said:

We see in the ER that an intern made a mistake but neither JW nor the other doctor decided to get rid of him... they just asked him to be more attentive.

Ahh I don't remember him teaching, but I remember the time where there was a guy who said he wanted to do it, because 'he can't always be afraid of (some type) surgery". Dr Joo said okay, but I don't think he gave it at the beginning. This is something I don't think Director Oh would ever do. She would ensure the kid trials it with her on the new fangled 3d machine replica and then goes in. Without a volunteer, she would pick and make sure all do something, forcing them to overcome fears rather than letting them avoid it. From the sounds of that scene, again, Dr. Joo is very soft, kind, patient. He will wait all the way until the kid says "I want to try." In a normal school setting, perhaps that's okay. In a cutthroat world... not so much. In an ideal world, perhaps.

On 8/23/2018 at 1:41 AM, triplem said:

not an ounce of compassion in her

I hope to see some soon! That said, elitism is bad when it breeds intolerance or closes itself off to change. I think Director Oh is very different from the traditional sense of elitism where 'our school is the best' I feel that she respects Dr. Joo as a surgeon and would not think lowly of someone who proves themselves to her.

On 8/23/2018 at 4:47 AM, dzareth said:

I would love to have him as my doctor and teacher but not as my superior. The fact that he was already willing to sacrifice himself over jw regarding the email incident shows that he is not looking at the big picture. 

^^^^ He's a good guy, but Director Oh is better at protecting with her own power, I feel.

 

On 8/23/2018 at 8:53 AM, bedifferent said:

Hwayeong's push to sell its own private insurance is its way of eliminating the check and balance of HIRA.  There will be no independent panel to judge whether a procedure is covered or the patients have to pay out of pocket.  The patients will be at the mercy of the insurance agency.  Dr. Oh fully understands it but has no quelm making a commercial pitch for it on air.  

OnO didn't think of it like this. Let's hope she does something so the plans cover more... :((

 

Ahh have written a lot but thank you all for the medical explanation as well and @bedifferent this all just breaks my heart I swear if Sun Woo doesn't get to walk at the end of the drama and dies instead I'll be so sad :(((((((((

Edited August 25, 2018 by Jillia
Please do not post consecutively, edit you previous post instead. Thanks! :)

[bedifferent]

Ehhh guys, the 3-D simulator is going to help  mostly the surgical departments so the deal by Dr. Oh will not benefit all.  Anyway, since there is so much talk about it 

 

 

@abyssal we shall pray hard with Nighty for Seon-woo.^^

 

They are eating ALONE & TOGETHER 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

From this...

 

Credit: Netflix

 

 

 

Don't even think...Grrr.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Credit: Netflix

 

They don't pester him about getting married. Refreshing.^^

 

 JW.JW.JW.

 

 

[bebebisous33]

@abyssal

Quote

Ah... I see! It's... it's quite comforting to know teachers can think like that. For students like me, it's great to hear, but sometimes I don't think so myself. It's as if giving the 'top in level prize' to the student who worked the hardest but didn't score as high as another. It's not what they want.

Particularly for doctors, there's a reason why their passing grade isn't just 50%, can't be that they kill half their patients right? I think for Director Oh, her version of love is tough love. She's afraid that her kids will go out and kill people if she's not tough on them. They can work hard but if they don't save people they cannot be doctors. 

Well, you misunderstood something. I never said that the "top in level prize" would be the one who worked the hardest. Grades are grades. No, I simply mentioned that you need to show that you recognize their efforts. Since they see that their efforts were not in vain and they get recognition, they get happy. And don't think that the smartest ones are the ones who always work very hard. Some of them are quite lazy as they just use their talent... and at some point, the difference between the ones with advantage and the normal ones will lessen and even disappear. The hardworking students will keep wanting to improve which does happen. Moreover, in our field we are asked to differentiate the level of the students. In one class, we have to developp different exercises so that the better students don't get bored and the others don't feel burdened. Teaching is much more complex and difficult that people seem to think. You need to motivate the students which is quite tricky. Initiating fear and competition are counterproductive. I felt that Director Oh was not contributing to install a good culture in that hospital. If she has only one intern left because she saw the others as incompetent aso, then I think, this is not right, especially if there is a lack of doctors.    

[wanda77]

2 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:

If she has only one intern left because she saw the others as incompetent aso, then I think, this is not right, especially if there is a lack of doctors.  

   The problem is not the existence of doctors specialised in certain field, but the number of approved jobs (by Health Ministry in general) in this case being a privatized hospital, by President and Board of Administration. Once finishing their residency, doctors have to find a job, it is not provided by the hospital in which they do it. At least not in my country; very few of them will get a job in the same hospital.

[bebebisous33]

3 minutes ago, wanda77 said:

   The problem is not the existence of doctors specialised in certain field, but the number of approved jobs (by Health Ministry in general) in this case being a privatized hospital, by President and Board of Administration. Once finishing their residency, doctors have to find a job, it is not provided by the hospital in which they do it. At least not in my country; very few of them will get a job in the same hospital.

Well, they can open a doctor office. Despite that, in France for example there is a huge lack of gynecologists or ophtalmologists. We don't have many ophtalmologists in Germany either.  Fact is that certain specializations are more popular than others which was mentioned in the drama. So here there is no difference between Europe and South Korea. Secondly, many doctors prefer working in cities too, hence in some areas they are pretty rare hence the huge waiting list. I know from my relative in France, it takes months until you get an appointment for the ophtalmologists. Sure, each doctor office has open windows for emergencies.  

[tzupi]

@bedifferent Thanks, and since you encouraged me and since i see that dr. Oh is so criticized, I have to defend her further. So you are to be blamed for this post. I'm joking... 

 

3 hours ago, triplem said:

 I am completely with you on Dr Oh. I’m in academics like you and IMO she’s  not a great teacher or mentor. She’s no doubt great at what she does and probably deserves the presidency given her competencies & ability to wrangle the things she want . But I always felt that the role of the president is to represent the welfare of its staff & patients, and balance off the commercial aspirations of the Chairman. If both the president & Chairman are equally as capitalist with little conscience or heart , I pity the staff & patients.

So you think that she is as profit orientated as the president? Do you have some proof for this? because this cannot be assumed from her teaching style and neither from her alleged lack of compassion.

You might think that the incident with the 3D machine shows this. This is how I see it: the president stated that he will introduce private insurance in the hospital, that is, that there would be some office where people would be able to acquire private insurance plans.  Dr. Oh said that the doctors would not be selling private insurance plans to the patients; the president said there is no need; there will be outside sellers for that. So, the selling of the private insurance was a fait acompli.  What dr. Oh did, she threatened that the doctors will actively persuade patients not to buy the insurance. At this moment, she got an opening and proposed for what was already something decided, that the hospital gets the 3D machine. So what I see there is a clever negotiation: idealistically, she could have recommended to the doctors to say no to the insurance plans, but instead, she exchanges this recommendation for the 3D machine. Would have been better to make the recommendation? I do not think so: what the series shows us is that doctors are divided and not very reverent towards their superiors (look at all the inside fights between them). Moreover, individually, the doctors are still free to recommend to the patients not to buy insurance.

 

Many of you talk about the conflict administration - doctors in this series, I think that there is a deeper issue. The hospital is part of a conglomerate, an economical group. The president works for the conglomerate, not the hospital. So his duty is to increase the profits of the conglomerate, not of the hospital. If you recall the first episodes, the CEO of the group encouraged the president to put the hospital at the center of the group activities. what we see in this series is more than making a hospital profitable. It is about how health care can be used to create more profit for other economical enterprises, and everything is done at the expense of the patient and sometimes of the doctors. Remember how the president was selling patient data to an insurance company, that was a subsidiary of the group. Other similar incidents: the drugs that help the subsidiaries; the discussion about the app.

Probably what we will see next is the unravelling of this conflict between making/keeping the hospital profitable vs using it to serve to further the goals of the conglomerate. The president is far from being on the good side. Did we see him doing anything against the conglomerate? 

 

 

 

[bedifferent]

LOL, welcome abroad.

 

@tzupi k. so I haven’t  looked too much into the hospital systems in SK.  I am answering based on what I know.  The problem here is Sangkook is a private AND university teaching hospital.  Sangkook must have a medical school and it is funneling its residents to train on its hospital.  The hospital itself is private but is nonprofit which means any surplus in budget will be tax exempt and redistribute back into the hospital. Hwajeong bought the hospital recently, sending in Seung-Hyo to restructure the teaching hospital to run it like any business with the goal of profitting and somehow find a way to channel the profits back to the conglomerate while escaping taxes. The only way he could successfully do this is to make the whole process a closed loop with insurance, drug companies and physicians working together.  Thus he needs a director who is willing to work  with this business plan, Dr Oh or Dr Kim.  This kind of business thinking is necessary for the hospital to stay afloat but in the process, it creates all kinds of ethical crossroads for physicians, staff and most importantly the residents.  A teaching hospital should teach in the most unbiased manner. After all, you are training future providers who will eventually treat you when you are older.  It’s fine and actually imperative that physicians learn and factor in the economics of their practice and decisions.   They need to understand the consequences of ordering tests, drugs, procedures and evaluate cost/benefits.  However, that’s not what Hwayeong is doing.  It is teaching the residents and asking physicians to practice for the good of the conglomerate. To make money for the company.  That’s where it crosses the line.

 

 I don’t have a problem with Dr Oh except for two things.  One, Sangkook needs to change its workplace culture so this will be much harder with someone who likes to maintain the status quo of power and club mentality.  The way she teaches - it’s going to be the same way she is going to approach her director position.  It’s not inclusive in nature.  Notice she didn’t inform the board of her approval for the hospital to start selling insurance.  She may not have to but it shows the kind of thoughtful person she is. I’m pretty sure she will defend the surgical depts over all others.  Realistically, you want a director to rally everyone to work together not causing a divide. The first act by any president is important as it shows their style of leadership.  I was disappointed that she overlooked more important issues for the staff like the upcoming nurses salaries cut for a machine.  It shows where her priorities are.

 

Second, Seung-Hyo is a little shortsighted in choosing a director that only carries out his own plans instead of looking ahead to find the person can give him long term job security.  Once he succeeded in setting down the infrastructure for Hwayeong, what’s going to stop CEO Cho from firing or transfer him to another job?  If director Oh thinks and agrees with Hwayeong,  Goo is no longer needed at the hospital.  It would be better and beneficial for both Seung-Hyo and Sangkook to have a director who also fight for the hospital and patient’s interests under a different set of values.  

[tzupi]

1 hour ago, bedifferent said:

Hwajeong bought the hospital recently, sending in Seung-Hyo to restructure the teaching hospital to run it like any business with the goal of profitting and somehow find a way to channel the profits back to the conglomerate while escaping taxes. The only way he could successfully do this is to make the whole process a closed loop with insurance, drug companies and physicians working together.  Thus he needs a director who is willing to work  with this business plan, Dr Oh or Dr Kim.  This kind of business thinking is necessary for the hospital to stay afloat but in the process, it creates all kinds of ethical crossroads for physicians, staff and most importantly the residents.  

 

I agree with a lot of things in your post, but this is something that I do not agree. I do not see why for the hospital to stay afloat it is necessary for it to become the milking cow of the Hwajeong corporation.

1. First, the hospital is in no need of staying afloat. It stays afloat very nicely. In ep. 8, the president mentioned the hospital's reserve found for essential business. When he mentioned its amount, even the CEO was surprised.

2. The CEO said that the plan is for the hospital to generate revenues to keep afloat the entire group. (ep. 4) His strategy seems to be to put the hospital to buy things to keep afloat the corporation. I imagine this to happen with the new building: a subsidiary will construct at a price decided by the corporation. The same happened with the drugs too: they are useless and expensive, something above the market price.

2. Didn't the president purchase the land for the new hospital and paid well above the market price? what he did was a favour/bribe to a politician, but the favour serves not the hospital but the CEO.

 

I find the drama brilliant because it pays attention to this new aspect of health care industry: there is a lot of investment from corporations because of its profitability, not lack of profitability. (in fact, dr. Oh makes this point when they discuss the strike) It also shows that all these discussions about privatizing public services because they are not profitable is a kind of BS. 

 

I take your point about inclusion. But there might be a reason why dr. Oh did not request a raise in salary for the nurses: nurses have their own union. Should she solidarize herself with them, even before they make any claim? If she were a communist, yes. But she is not. In fact, dr. Oh said that she agrees with the president that they are not running a charity there.

Her point of view is that the hospital needs to buy things to stay on top instead of investing in the salaries of people. I can see how this can go wrong, but for now, her position is not completely wrong. Investing in technology can help even the nurses. (But this is speculation, we need to see more of what she is thinking)

 

[bedifferent]

Yeah, me too, the drama is pretty good in the details and current issues.  Cast is excellent.  Can't believe LSY doesn't work in healthcare, her consultants are good.

 

Your points are good as well since it really forces my brain to think hahaha.  Just to add to below.

 

Quote

 

1. First, the hospital is in no need of staying afloat. It stays afloat very nicely. In ep. 8, the president mentioned the hospital's reserve found for essential business. When he mentioned its amount, even the CEO was surprised.

2. The CEO said that the plan is for the hospital to generate revenues to keep afloat the entire group. (ep. 4) His strategy seems to be to put the hospital to buy things to keep afloat the corporation. I imagine this to happen with the new building: a subsidiary will construct at a price decided by the corporation. The same happened with the drugs too: they are useless and expensive, something above the market price.

2. Didn't the president purchase the land for the new hospital and paid well above the market price? what he did was a favour/bribe to a politician, but the favour serves not the hospital but the CEO.

 

 

1. Well, the reserve is for infrastructure improvement and expansion.  An essential part of any business and hospitals.  Seung-Hyo realized the old admin claimed it as expense instead of revenue.  I think that was a deliberate way LBH used to keep the reserve. Otherwise, the money won't ever be there. It also maybe an oversight with how inefficient LBH was running the hospital, not upgrading the equipments, technology... even as he is awared of its needs.  

The hospital's revenues will be less now that Dr. Kim is on probation and his cases are canceled.  He was prolific and brought  in lots of pts. Orthopedic surgery is very profitable.

 

2.  I'm not sure if I understand this point.  Are you saying that the hospital is profitable and actually is used to support Hwayeong?  Well, I think Goo was asked to do a lot. If I remember correctly, CEO Cho wants the new medical center in Sontang be funded by the hospital. It was Seung-Hyo who countered back that Hwayeong should pay for the expansion.  CEO Cho was happy to hear about the surplus, president Goo get an A here for scrutinizing the books well. All the profits from Hwayeong drug company, insurance, apps (if the deal felt through), selling pt's heath informations will be used to build the new medical center.  All the trimmings with the nurses salaries and equipment cuts help to reduce cost.  The pay per performance model that Seung-Hyo is pushing for will get them higher reimbursements.  Before President Goo comes in, they were in the red because Peds, ER and OB/GYN were bleeding money.  Goo found a way to keep the 3 depts but only if the hospital agrees to play by his rules of pushing costs toward patients and the government (insurance).

 

3.  The new medical building will only offer profitable services, especially preventive care medicines.  This is a good strategy actually. Not only does it bring in profits, it will also prevent diseases and reduce the amount of pts coming to Hwayoeng.  The healthier the patients, the less money Hwayeong will spend on treating them.  Preventive medicine and vet medicine are very profitable.  On top of it, Goo is developing an app to monitor pt's health and alert them to come in for preventive care visits.  Insurance is starting to give good reimbursement for preventive care.  

 

Hospitals are only as good as the quality of their staff, may it be a custodian, nurse, lab technician, or receptionist  Dr. Oh already disregarded the fact that physician’s reputation is the main reason why patients chose to go to Sangkook (she said it to Dr. Kim).  She thinks it's because of Sangkook's reputation.  I think she fails to see the importance of hospital staff.  If the pt's room is not cleaned on time, the pt will be upset.  If the meals are not served on time, pt will too.  The wait in line is essential, the follow up phone call, the wait to get an MRI is important.  How experienced the radiology technician who did your mammogram?  The ultrasound technician who did the scan of your ovarian tumor?  The only way you can attract and retain good employees is to support the staff and give fair incentives. Otherwise,  the hospital cannot retain the same level of care.  I agree, getting new technology is good but not at the expense of staff salaries.  

 

You will be surprised how many unions band together from different departments when the time comes to take a stand for patient care, safety and their own livelihood.  Physicians have often support nurses and union members because they realize they are only as good as the people making their teams.

 

Looking forward to the next episodes.  And of course your comments here!

 

@triplem  In simple terms, sorry.  Dr. Joo basically said the only way for Seon-woo to slow down (hopefully prevent) the new clots from forming is to increase blood circulation.  Keeps the blood moving in his body.  You see him lifting weights and exercise, which increases heart rates causing the heart will pump the blood out more often.  This takes care of blood moving to his lower limbs.  He now needs to return those blood back to the heart through the clogged valve, walls, etc.. He can do this by leg compressions or possibly aquatic therapy (I saw him mesmerized at the turtles) or walking!  If he can't get this blood circulation going, the clots will continue to grow and one day, completely block the vein.  If this happens, there is no blood going to his legs, the tissues will die.  What Dr. Joo is more afraid is the possibility of a big clot passing through the valve, forming and travel to the lung, heart or brain and cause a fatal event.  So he suggests to SW to consider amputation with its risks/benefits.  He also advised him to take a vacation before he makes the decision and his life is changed forever.

[msaamia]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:15 AM, bedifferent said:

 

Dr. Joo didn't confirm whether SW's valve is damaged but he has ruled out surgery since that is not going to remove the main cause.  We are looking at increasing blood circulation right?  Seon-woo has been doing upper body strength with the weights.  He was watching the TV shows about underwater turtles (?) so I am thinking maybe some aquatic therapy could help as well?

 

He also worried about serious thrombotic events that could be fatal so has encouraged Seon-woo to make a decision about his amputation.  He reminded him of how much his mom would be in pain if a serious event would to happen.  

 

JSW needs to bottle his energy. 

More JSW goodness under spoiler tag

  Hide contents

 

 

I haven't seen the latest episodes yet but I also do wonder if aquatic therapy could work? Yes amputation is a possibility but his clots could lead to certain other problems (someone mentioned in this thread) strokes, MI, PE. Some scary and sad stuff. I really do feel for Seon-woo. 

 

JSW is too precious. I love him and his crazy energy! 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jillia
Please do not quote images, thanks! :)

[tzupi]

2 hours ago, bedifferent said:

I'm not sure if I understand this point.  Are you saying that the hospital is profitable and actually is used to support Hwayeong?  Well, I think Goo was asked to do a lot. If I remember correctly, CEO Cho wants the new medical center in Sontang be funded by the hospital. It was Seung-Hyo who countered back that Hwayeong should pay for the expansion.  CEO Cho was happy to hear about the surplus, president Goo get an A here for scrutinizing the books well. All the profits from Hwayeong drug company, insurance, apps (if the deal felt through), selling pt's heath informations will be used to build the new medical center.  All the trimmings with the nurses salaries and equipment cuts help to reduce cost.  The pay per performance model that Seung-Hyo is pushing for will get them higher reimbursements.  Before President Goo comes in, they were in the red because Peds, ER and OB/GYN were bleeding money.  Goo found a way to keep the 3 depts but only if the hospital agrees to play by his rules of pushing costs toward patients and the government (insurance).

7

Yes, that's what I am saying. The drama makes it clear that the hospital made a lot of money in the past. This is something that the president explained in episode 8: at first, he did not believe that the big four hospitals make a profit, but after checking the books and discovering the reserve, he said that his hospital went from red to black.

 

From what I heard about the non-profits, this is not surprising. Many and probably the most successful non-profits make money, but their books cannot show this. This is why they allocate the extra money for some kind of expenses: practically, they hide the money because they know that they need it and once taken, they do not get it back. 

 

Moreover, in episode 2, the CEO says clear that the hospital needs to generate revenues for the entire group. and he explains to president Gu why: First, his other subsidiaries will not be profitable for much longer. Probably he invested in something old-fashioned (we saw him complaining that he did not enter on the phone market.)

Second, people would always need health care. What the company does is to exploit this need. They sell then more expensive drugs, more expensive insurance, and the most interesting aspect on which the show insist,  they use their data to target them with things that they know they would need. Remember the interesting discussion in the first episode how the data of the patients will be used to increase their insurance's premium.

 

So, yes, the CEO sees the hospital not as a problematic subsidiary in need of being rescued, but as the one subsidiary that would save his company.