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[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦


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QH should realize the entire blame for bringing ML and GTY together lies on his own head. Who told him to pray for a good husband for ML at the Youqing Monastery? Thats why they say.... be c

adorable couple ============  

Aunti Kang short biography:   Back then when Aunti Kang and Wang Daniang were still single. For various reasons, Daniang was brought up by their grandparents while Aunti Kang grew up with th

1 hour ago, mooose said:

 

Devil's advocate here.

 

The most serious cases would be treason and public corruption, which would lead to confiscation of assets, beheadings, slavery for family etc. In this case GTY is a merritorious official and all his issues are grey family issues, he didn't have his hand in the imperial cookie jar or plot rebellion. As an absolute monarch, a judgement from the emperor would not always be the same from the courts. He can choose, at his dicretion to mitigate a sentence or judgement. So yes, even if the emperor was publicly pissed, he wouldn't be extreme as to want one of his close aides homeless and penniless, on account of past services rendered.

 

ML wearing her robes in a 'last ditch' appeal, I don't  think is that big of a deal. She needs to look powerful.

 

Even as commoners, GTY and ML are still both from grand families (The Shens' were not titled, only scholars, but still considered a grand family). So their lifestyle and close circle of friends won't change that much.

 

The imperial family could summon anyone before them, even common furens or merchants. ML can still be summoned, even without a title.

I went back to look at the dress code of the petitioning ladies..

Madam Wang wore a red robe with an elaborate golden ornamental headgear fit to be a crown..Madam Qin wore a darkish blue robe with modest embroidery and a golden ornamental headgear which was less regal compared to Sr.Ms.Wang.

ML was in a blue robe which had birds embroidered on it generously.Her head gear too was blue with the bird theme...Medival European clans used animals as symbols in family crest.Don't know if that is the case with Gu clan hence the aviary display.

 

The men's offical dresscode followed a pattern of hierarchy/nobility/ranking..women attire was a costume designer's delight...Wish there was a more methodical way to understand the hierarchy difference on woman's attire.

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1 hour ago, mooose said:

Devil's advocate here.

 

The most serious cases would be treason and public corruption, which would lead to confiscation of assets, beheadings, slavery for family etc. In this case GTY is a merritorious official and all his issues are grey family issues, he didn't have his hand in the imperial cookie jar or plot rebellion. As an absolute monarch, a judgement from the emperor would not always be the same from the courts. He can choose, at his dicretion to mitigate a sentence or judgement. So yes, even if the emperor was publicly pissed, he wouldn't be extreme as to want one of his close aides homeless and penniless, on account of past services rendered.

ML wearing her robes in a 'last ditch' appeal, I don't  think is that big of a deal. She needs to look powerful.

Even as commoners, GTY and ML are still both from grand families (The Shens' were not titled, only scholars, but still considered a grand family). So their lifestyle and close circle of friends won't change that much.

The imperial family could summon anyone before them, even common furens or merchants. ML can still be summoned, even without a title.

In the decree, GTY was convicted of being greedy and confisticating civilian's properties (basically one of public corruptions) in addition to murdering official's family member. It is very long and complicated decree with a lot of stuff in addition to his sentence. Since he is convicted of taking civilian's properties, those properties would be taken away and giving back to the owners or taken into imperial treasury if requester is dead (Bai uncle) but that didn't happen either. 

 

Since Chen garden was bestowed by emperor along with captain of imperial palace army title, if his title is taken back, at least Chen garden should be taken away (not including his other personal properties). The person who assume GTY's position would be given Chen garden (noble consort Liu BIL became captain of imperial palace army). Marquis manor should be taken away too unless emperor designate someone from Gu family to accept the title. It doesn't make sense for emperor leaving the hereditary title up in the air without designating anyone nor GTW saying he will petition emperor to give title to GTY's son if GTY is really dead since the son of GTY cannot inherit the title as the father being convicted criminal and title being taken away from him. 

 

The point is ED summoning officials and wives of emperor's party in the name of empress. You will see prime minister Han shouting and protesting as he did not believe it was empress' order. Since GTY was assumed death at this point, we're saying there is no motive for ED to be summoning ML. She didn't summon SH or CB or their wives, did she? If GTY is dead, ML is just sixth daughter of official SH who is widowed even if she is still living at Chen garden.

 

When we are saying noble woman attire or outfit it includes the headpiece. The decree included taking away her noble title since she could no longer wear the attire which includes the headpiece. There are also 8 different levels of noble woman and their level can be distinguished by headpiece and color of the robe.

@minglan1ML's title has shu which indicates third grade. I'm assuming Old Madam Wang is first grade since her husband being imperial tutor and honored in imperial temple. The stepmom level can be lower than ML since her husband did not have any merit. The book never mentioned about stepmom gaining the title. Zhang Shi (general Shen's wife title is first grade in the novel).

 

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3 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

In the decree, GTY was convicted of being greedy and confisticating civilian's properties (basically one of public corruptions) in addition to murdering official's family member. It is very long and complicated decree with a lot of stuff in addition to his sentence. Since he is convicted of taking civilian's properties, those properties would be taken away and giving back to the owners or taken into imperial treasury if requester is dead (Bai uncle) but that didn't happen either. 

 

Since Chen garden was bestowed by emperor along with captain of imperial palace army title, if his title is taken back, at least Chen garden should be taken away (not including his other personal properties). The person who assume GTY's position would be given Chen garden (noble consort Liu BIL became captain of imperial palace army). Marquis manor should be taken away too unless emperor designate someone from Gu family to accept the title. It doesn't make sense for emperor leaving the hereditary title up in the air without designating anyone nor GTW saying he will petition emperor to give title to GTY's son if GTY is really dead since the son of GTY cannot inherit the title as the father being convicted criminal and title being taken away from him. 

 

The point is ED summoning officials and wives of emperor's party in the name of empress. You will see prime minister Han shouting and protesting as he did not believe it was empress' order. Since GTY was assumed death at this point, we're saying there is no motive for ED to be summoning ML. She didn't summon SH or CB or their wives, did she? If GTY is dead, ML is just sixth daughter of official SH who is widowed even if she is still living at Chen garden.

 

Summoning ml was a trap to kill her. It's stepmom plan to kill ml no matter what as ml was considered gtu achilles heel. If ml died gty will be destroyed, no longer he can come back. Took the opportunity to destroy the enemy to thr root so that there was no risk of ml&gty to raise again. 

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Ep.64 was really good. Grandma's awake & TY's back. I almost forgot he was in the show for a bit. CB is such a good son. I really like how the characters matured. Well maybe not all of them but I love the progression. Im so happy grandma's okay. ML&TY together again, the dynamic duo is just too good. I love these cuties. 

Those pecking/kisses at the end :wub:

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20 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

When we are saying noble woman attire or outfit it includes the headpiece. The decree included taken away her noble title. There are also 8 different levels of noble woman and their level can be distinguished by headpiece and color of the robe. ML's title has shu which indicates third level. 

 

Is this specific to northen song dynasty?

If ML is third level that is a grade lower I presume than Qin and Madam Wang.So how is her clothes allowed to be more decorative? As I understand the imperial family and high ranking officials were allowed to were silk ..Others would dress in hemp...For commoners it was black or blue simple dressing..Using of colors was barred except by royalty and high ranking officials.

So if we go by that then ML's attire has to be on the austere side....Here it is not so..Her dress in fact stands out more..

4 minutes ago, leeza77 said:

Last night rating 2.061. The best rating for hunan tv since 600 days ago. Congratulations 

Thanks @leeza77 for posting this.My question got answered. TV audiences are enjoying the way the story has progressed.

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4 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

Is this specific to northen song dynasty?

If ML is third level that is a grade lower I presume than Qin and Madam Wang.So how is her clothes allowed to be more decorative..As I understand the imperial family and high ranking officials were allowed to were silk ..Others would dress in hemp...For commoners it was blck or blue simple dressing..Usng of colors was barred.

So if we go by that then ML's attire has to be on the austere side....Here it is not so..Her dress in fact stands out more..

Thanks @leeza77 for posting this.My question got answeres. TV audiences are enjoying the way the story has progressed.

I'm one of them. Just watching and be satisfied with the happy ending. 

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11 minutes ago, leeza77 said:

Summoning ml was a trap to kill her. It's stepmom plan to kill ml no matter what as ml was considered gtu achilles heel. If ml died gty will be destroyed, no longer he can come back. Took the opportunity to destroy the enemy to thr root so that there was no risk of ml&gty to raise again. 

First, it was already shown stepmom already regarded GTY being dead, telling GTW that ML's side is already preparing funeral clothes, and gleefully asking him whether he feels happy since the whole Marquis house is his now before ED's eunuchs came to get ML. I also don't know stepmom is powerful enough to have eunuch of ED or noble consort in her disposal. 

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27 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

First, it was already shown stepmom already regarded GTY being dead, telling GTW that ML's side is already preparing funeral clothes, and gleefully asking him whether he feels happy since the whole Marquis house is his now before ED's eunuchs came to get ML. I also don't know stepmom is powerful enough to have eunuch of ED or noble consort in her disposal. 

Tit for tat.. Stepmom helped ED framed gty. ED give her favour to kill her enemy 

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I haven't actually watched the recent episodes (still waiting for subs :tears:) so I'm deducing based on the earlier episodes and analysis. 

 

Whilst I do feel that ML having to go through another hell, and a world of pain trying to free GTY doesn't do much justice especially to GTY's character to still kept her in the dark, there's an explanation I could think of. 

In earlier post by @dito and @linhlinh111, it was mentioned that in the book, during their 2nd big argument, ML said that love is not measured by the intelligent things, but by stupid illogical actions one does for the other. 

Possibly, this is the show's way to demonstrate her love. 

May not necessarily agree with the way the scriptwriters do it, but I could understand. 

 

Personally, the way things are going, it seems like scriptwriters wanted to end the show with a bang. Bringing everyone back for the finale basically. If CL is not dead, I'm pretty sure they will bring her back into the scene too. 

Another pity, considering the show did extremely well in subtlety. 

Excelled in being quietly powerful.

 

However, I can understand why ED wants ML dead (based on my 21st century lense if I may add).

The biggest threat in ML for ED isn't her status, her power, her family background, or her wealth. 

Her biggest threat, and ML's biggest asset lies in her wit and intelligence.

They can take her title away, her wealth and everything away but they can't take away her brain. And that's why ED wants her dead. Because she knows ML isn't on her side, and will never be. 

ML's a strategist, with or without GTY, she's capable of things that ED couldn't think of. 

Together, ML-GTY combo is lethal, but even apart, they are dangerous on their own. 

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5 hours ago, minglan1 said:

How is the story of minglan faring among TV audiences? Are they also critical of historical discrepancies in costume,props,screenplay?Just curious since in some countries TV audiences aren't too mindful about these matters.

 

Chinese audience were criticizing the grammer in the earlier episodes.....I don't think they are going to let this degree of logic fail...that lasted 10-12 episodes, go without a word.

 

3 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

That is what I have been saying in my yesterday's post after I saw the previews. You have been thinking he was just being demoted. I guess the writers can say that property confistication wasn't included in the decree or two compounds being combined and considered as Marquis fu but it doesn't make sense with the criminal law of that era. Did you notice the decree also convicted him of being greedy and seizing properties of civilians (meaning bai family's properties since he was being sued for illegally taking away by his uncle in throne room) but then the emperor didn't take away any of those properties? Huan Wang also didn't go to war though he requested.

 

ML's grandma already reminded her that it would be unacceptable for her to wear her noble lady attire since her title is gone with GTY's. She basically told grandma she no longer care anymore and she just wanted to do her best for GTY.  She also said she was there at Sheng house to say goodbye to old lady, basically she is prepared to be arrested or died. That's why next morning after ML left SH told grandma that Sheng house doesn't only have ML as a child, it is only Sheng house in the capital but also main house in Youyang over 100 lives at stakes and CB shouldn't be involved at all. SH was scared to death when he tried to pull ML away after over 24 hrs of drum beating. 

I have already pointed out property confiscations and all the wrong things of the last two episodes in my previous post, the one before your quoted one in pg 261. 

 

@dito It was also pearl necklaces given to Sheng girls by QH's mom in the novel. It was in pretty early chapters ~30s since ML was only around 11 at that time. 

 

I hate to say this but I'm so glad I'm no longer alone in being unhappy with drama writers :D

I was so alone when I started pointing out little details of their inconsistencies during third week.  

 

Some little bit of inconsistencies, I can explain away....but my mind is not that imaginative that it can cover up a huge black hole of nonsense.:lol:

So I'm happy to keep you company in our misery till the finish line.:D

 

3 hours ago, matrim said:

Before the imperial edict ML was a noble lady and had the right to wear that outfit, but after she lost her title she definitely shouldn't wear it. A commoner pretending to be a noble lady was not a small matter, especially as ML was using the status to appeal for her husband. Any official from ED's side could easily use it as an excuse to sue her and add more criminal charges against GTY. By doing this ML didn't help GTY, she's actually bringing more trouble to him. I know it looked impressive but honestly she should just wear normal clothes. 

 

Wouldn't wearing normal clothes to appeal have had even more impact? As ML would be appealing as a common citizen....not as a noble woman. Emperor would be duty bound to listen to her.

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@Golden Flower  

I've only watched up to ep 69 subbed so I'm not too clear on the sentencing decree. The properties in question are the Bai properties? So this is really a family issue not public corruption per se.

 

GTY is a popular figure within military circles and has saved the Emperor and son numerous times. The Emperor is an absolute monarch so he can decide the penalty at his discretion. Even without the pretext of fooling ED, would he really have such a man who has given such service, made penniless and homeless. Why is it a given that he must lose his house?

 

A family could also lose its noble title (have it rescinded by the Emperor) and become commoners. Its not a given that the title must be passed down etc. I guess that's why Stepmom is panicking, losing the title doesn't mean GTW will automatically get it.

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9 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

I haven't actually watched the recent episodes (still waiting for subs :tears:) so I'm deducing based on the earlier episodes and analysis. 

 

Whilst I do feel that ML having to go through another hell, and a world of pain trying to free GTY doesn't do much justice especially to GTY's character to still kept her in the dark, there's an explanation I could think of. 

In earlier post by @dito and @linhlinh111, it was mentioned that in the book, during their 2nd big argument, ML said that love is not measured by the intelligent things, but by stupid illogical actions one does for the other. 

Possibly, this is the show's way to demonstrate her love. 

May not necessarily agree with the way the scriptwriters do it, but I could understand. 

 

Personally, the way things are going, it seems like scriptwriters wanted to end the show with a bang. Bringing everyone back for the finale basically. If CL is not dead, I'm pretty sure they will bring her back into the scene too. 

Another pity, considering the show did extremely well in subtlety. 

Excelled in being quietly powerful.

 

However, I can understand why ED wants ML dead (based on my 21st century lense if I may add).

The biggest threat in ML for ED isn't her status, her power, her family background, or her wealth. 

Her biggest threat, and ML's biggest asset lies in her wit and intelligence.

They can take her title away, her wealth and everything away but they can't take away her brain. And that's why ED wants her dead. Because she knows ML isn't on her side, and will never be. 

ML's a strategist, with or without GTY, she's capable of things that ED couldn't think of. 

Together, ML-GTY combo is lethal, but even apart, they are dangerous on their own. 

 

In the book, that was said in context for GTY to do stupid things for ML. ML had already shown she is capable of doing stupid things for the people she loved. The only reason she kept her heart closed off from GTY was exactly because of this...that he never behaved as if he had her in his heart. In her thinking, if he had punished manniang more severely, that meant he was scared for her life and did a stupid thing for her without thinking of consequences and only reason a person does that is because they love them. Like granny for her...and her for granny...before and after the poisoning.

 

And for ED to see ML as a threat is not logical at this stage. ML's intelligence will be a threat to ED only if she had the power to control / advice people important enough to harm ED. ML, herself, alone was no threat to her. As seemingly even the emperor couldn't be bothered to listen to her grievances. And the empress was also refusing to see her hence ML had to disguise herself as a maid to see her.

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16 minutes ago, minoku2209 said:

I'm really worried seeing this scenes, its the confiment syndrome, having too much mental stress & not enough rest. :sweatingbullets: But luckly minglan recover fast. :D

Yingbao is really good, such a great actress.:wub:

 

What a scene.. she must be laughing with disgust at all the "silliness" thats taking place. 

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Am I the only one that actually doesn't care much about the 'supposed inconsistency', like I know the writing will bring in some unthinkable and unmatched plot but still fitting for the drama.. I think we are all thinking too much at this point.. Somehow all these things match, somehow they seem unreasonable but that's the fictional part of the drama.. They could have gone for the simple, not over dramatic plot like just accusing him of leaving his post or not answering to the king's call when ML was giving birth.. But they went for the stupid excuse to aid downfall and also decreed him an exile but that's after he comes back from the supposed fight and that's when the decree will happen.. So I think, we are not just putting more attention to the dialogue because we think the plot has gotten unreasonable, however they still very much correlate to me, from a non realistic view.. I put all 'it should make sense' behind me when I'm watching a drama, because when it doesn't make sense, that's when it's a drama...the viewers might know it doesn't the make sense, but the characters are living in that not making sense life which makes it make sense.. So I think we all should think too deep into the plot or think too much as regards the novel and the drama, it will only cause more headaches, trust me.. :sweatingbullets:

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41 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

I haven't actually watched the recent episodes (still waiting for subs :tears:) so I'm deducing based on the earlier episodes and analysis. 

 

Whilst I do feel that ML having to go through another hell, and a world of pain trying to free GTY doesn't do much justice especially to GTY's character to still kept her in the dark, there's an explanation I could think of. 

In earlier post by @dito and @linhlinh111, it was mentioned that in the book, during their 2nd big argument, ML said that love is not measured by the intelligent things, but by stupid illogical actions one does for the other. 

Possibly, this is the show's way to demonstrate her love. 

May not necessarily agree with the way the scriptwriters do it, but I could understand. 

 

Personally, the way things are going, it seems like scriptwriters wanted to end the show with a bang. Bringing everyone back for the finale basically. If CL is not dead, I'm pretty sure they will bring her back into the scene too. 

Another pity, considering the show did extremely well in subtlety. 

Excelled in being quietly powerful.

 

However, I can understand why ED wants ML dead (based on my 21st century lense if I may add).

The biggest threat in ML for ED isn't her status, her power, her family background, or her wealth. 

Her biggest threat, and ML's biggest asset lies in her wit and intelligence.

They can take her title away, her wealth and everything away but they can't take away her brain. And that's why ED wants her dead. Because she knows ML isn't on her side, and will never be. 

ML's a strategist, with or without GTY, she's capable of things that ED couldn't think of. 

Together, ML-GTY combo is lethal, but even apart, they are dangerous on their own. 

A good point. I do think it's the script writers' intention to show ML's love for GTY. The love was so strong that she lost her head to beat the imperial drum. As the writers altered the plot a lot, the words you mentioned in the second argument can no longer be used in that scene, so they transferred these words into this bold and irrantional action. In a scene talking with QH and Shen Shi, ML admitted she hadn't thought about the effectiveness of beating the imperial drum and bringing the case to the emperor. She just felt it's unfair to treat GTY like that and she must seek justice for him. A clear sign that she had lost her mind. When ML handled Grandma poinsoning, furious as she was, she didn't lose her head. The bold actions proved to be effective, as she quickly gathered all the evidence and testomonies. Even if things went badly, she could still use them in the court to ensure the culprit was brought to justice. She challenged SH not simply to vent her anger, but to establish her position as master of the house. She needed the power to cotrol the situation. But GTY case was completely different. She had no say in this and no power to influence the decision. All she could wished for was emperor's good will and mercy. So beating the drum is actually her last resort. Grandma understood this was a desperate action for ML wearing noble lady's outfit would be a violation of the law. ML was prepared to risk her life to appeal for GTY, fulfilling her promise to GTY that she would sacrifice her life to repay him.

 

However, there's a flaw in this plot. Framing GTY was not a seperate case. It's a small part in a fierce power struggle. GTY had told ML the scenario long ago, and even if ML had lost her head then because of her love for GTY, shouldn't Grandma, a strategist, analyzed the whole matter for ML? Taking down GTY would greatly undermine the emperor's power, and Grandma should have realized the significance of this. The whole matter seemed rather strange as the emperor didn't defend GTY properly as if he was on ED's side. One may argue that he got suspicious of GTY for his close relationship with Prince Huan and afraid he might help Prince Huan to usurp the throne. But if he didn't trust GTY and Prince Huan, how could he give important mission as salt mines inspection to them? And compared with ED, wasn't this supposed "threat" not that great and immediate? Clear-headed as Grandma should have seen the big picture and clarified this for ML and advised her not to take rush actions. But I guess the writers wanted more drama and suspense so all the intelligent characters have to be stupid when needed. :lol: 

 

It's sad to see the drama plummeted after Grandma poisoning. All these assasinations, scheming plots and actions made me numb. They disrupted the rhythm of the drama and made me feel as if I'm watching a different drama now, a second rate palace farce instead of a high calibre family drama. I think the strength of the drama lies in its subtle depiction of family matters, relationship between characters, layered characterization and a good sense of humor, not in dramatic twists, exciting actions and to some extent, suspense. I'm afraid the writers are busy wrapping up all the lines and forget what they did right in the past episodes.

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