[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否？知否？应是绿肥红瘦

[Golden Flower]

On 1/8/2019 at 7:15 PM, cherubstomato said:

@zenya22  Honestly, QYH attitude is exactly what his mother wants.... There is such a thing as parents not wanting their kids to be independent from them. His way of trying to persuade her in her eyes was better than GTY unruly nature. She was waiting to take the matters in her own hand to make the clear break for them and the time came. Though her method will cause a little mistrust to her son she needed to do it where there are witness and the two of them. This is why being direct is not something they do. They have to have an alternate meaning. When his mom talked about CB wedding she was clever in making him think that she agreed but it was only to visit the party so it was his fault for misunderstanding and can’t blame his mother later on. 

I agree that it was QH's misunderstanding of his mother, him letting ML know in advance and ML telling grandmom in advance as she was so flustered and excited, were the cause of awkwardness  in pearl giving scene. However, I disagree with those saying that QH's mom was manipulative and cunning to cause shame to grandmom, ML and Sheng family. I do not think that it was her purpose. QH's mom never verbally promised QH that she would propose marriage for ML. She just said all three of them are attending CB's wedding. She probably did not think that QH will give ML wrong information in advance either for two of them have no reason to meet each other. She just knew that saying "no" to her son might not end the deal and her son would end up begging her again and again as well as she was not sure whether the girl's side was encourging her son without knowing their place (like Lin Yiniang and Mo Lan). That's why she wanted to make clear where she stands to both her son and Sheng family at the same time. Of course, she did not realize grandmom and ML already know that their status do not match, and ML has been telling QH that and avoiding him as much as she can. 

Spoiler

In the book, QH's mom like ML since she first met her when ML was around 10-11. ML was a young girl, not developed into a lady yet and QH's mom did not say anything regards to him talking to her. She knows that ML made a knee pad for QH and stiched the shape of yuanbao "golden ingot" on the knee pad and QH's mom was laughing as she realized ML was quick- witted for using shape of yuanbao as QH's initial. The knee pad was made to use during provincinal exam not during imperial college exam like in the drama and QH requested ML to make one for him after he saw CB's one made by ML. She gave pearl necklaces to three girls as her first meeting gift to them, not as QH's gifts to them for becoming his sisters like in drama though she said that QH and three sisters to become siblings to prevent Wang shi (first madam) to consider QH for Rulan's marriage or having any thoughts from Molan and Rulan who were already developed. 

I have been just lurking the thread without commenting since beginning but I felt that some of you were blaming QH wrongly for being weak, wet-blanket, inconsiderate of ML and not having plans in trying to obtain ML's hand in marriage as you did not really understand QH's situation as well as his mom's since the drama did not really (1) explain well on the importance of being filial to the parents, family status, family name/honor and family connection during Song or Ming dynasty (2) added scenes between QH and ML to create typical first love like in other 21st century drama and to promote ZYL's QH as second male lead, creating inconsiderate QH. I felt that drama's writing and direction inconsistancy with the rest of the drama lines potraying that period's culture is causing ZYL's great acting (with subtle eyes and facial expressions) injustice. I'm not QH's fan or having 2nd lead syndrome or against any actors/ actresses in the drama. I'm just a fan of good drama, good acting and writing. 

Spoiler

Since the beginning of the book, it was very clear on how much difference in societal views on a person during that period vs 21st century. During that time period, although the officialships can be obtained by merit through passing different level of governmental examinations, the reputation and advancement of levels for each official are dependent on his behavior and his family status. Kong Momo warned Sheng Hong the bad reputation of favoring concubine over main wife could cause hinderance for his advancement in career or losing his officialdom. That is why he stopped over indulging Lin Yiniang though the drama was not really clear in potraying that. He stopped saying "yes" to all Lin Yiniang's request and giving more power to Old Madam and Wang Shi in the drama though. Sheng Hong himself mentioned to his wife Wang Shi that not being failial to Old Madam though she is not his biological mother can have negative effect on his career. Marriages are decided by parents and family and both man and woman has no say in their marriages especially woman. It is very common to get married very young before the man starts his career. There is famous saying “make family first then starts career”. A lot of poor scholar gets married before passing exam and they were supposed by wife and her family like in the case of ML’s cousin Shu Lan. Shu Lan family let her get married to this poor Sun guy with a lot of dowry as he was shou cai scholar who passed perfectual level exam at the age of 12 though his mom made living by washing clothes before their marriage. Her family was expecting that he will pass imperial exam and became high level official in the future. Also, lives of officials being in the capital vs in the cities in provinces are also quite different. Being in capital Biang Jing, people have to strictly adhere to ettiquets and act more reserved as it is the city where emperor has ears everywhere and all imperial relatives, noble families and high officials families reside. 

Back to QH...

He cannot go ask for ML’s hand in marriage from her family even after he passed the imperial exam, obtain official position, and obtain some wealth. ML’s grandmom and dad will not give consent if his parents do not agree to the proposal since they’re alive. (In the drama, matchmaker told GTY to request his father to ask for Yu  Yanran’s Hans for marriage from her grandfather Tai Shi when he was denied entrance at Yu’s family house for marriage proposal. GTY already have a lot of personal wealth and properties from his maternal grandfather though he has not gained anything from his own family yet. GTY’s father wrote the letter of proposal to grandfather in addition to GTY’s meeting the grandfather himself and that’s why grandfather almost agreed to the marriage until Maniang shows up).

 

At this point, QH has not passed the exam yet nor he has any property in his name though he is from noble and wealthy family. So, all he can do is request his parents' permission/help for proposing marriage to ML as his official wife since he loves her and wants to be with her. Btw, ML is the only girl whom he talks to frequently since they were young as his mother did not even allow his distant female cousins to come play with him (he doesn't have any first cousin females from both his parents' side). So, it is very understandable for him not being able not to express his feelings for ML and not being able to hide the fact of him wanting to be with her since his attachment and love for ML is quite deep and developed for a long time (8 yrs or more). QH told his parents to let him have marriage/ family first and he promised he will make sure to pass the exam which is very logical request for his situation in that time period where he needs his parents' permission for everything. Also, he is just a scholar who doesn't know martial art or strong enough to join military like GTY. It is very unfair to compare him and GTY in protecting or understanding ML 

Another thing is drama changes his family status dramatically by changing his father as Quke and making him as eventual successor of ducal house, making audience think his mom princess did not agree ML because of her status and she looked down on Sheng family. In the book, the main reason she wants QH marry the county princess was to help him advance his career as QH's dad is not a duke but his grandfather is. QH's dad is second son of duke Qi and his older brother is supposed to inherit the ducal title though he also holds 3rd grade high official position. QH's uncle has a son already though this cousin brother of QH is sickly and it is possible that he might die and pass the ducal title to QH, however, it is not definite. That's why both his parents encouraged him to pass the imperial exam though he can still get position based on family connection. Of course, QH's mom is also written as prideful, main power in her household and cares about being legitimate and concubine born but she is not as bad as drama potrayed her to be. 

 

The only thing/ plan QH can do to be considerate of ML is to never express his interest/ feelings and just kept everything to himself. If that is the case, there will be not much scenes of QH and ML and no second male lead in the drama like the book. In the book, QH was mentioned in less than 50 chapers and he was just one of the four suitors ML had though he was the one who known ML since childhood and mentioned the most among 4 suitors. QH planned only once to meet ML alone in the backyard of his maternal's grandfather’s fu during his birthday banquet and he only mentioned that he wants to see her since he hasn’t seen her for a long time and that he likes her. He was not forceful in declaring his love for her or making her admit that she has him in her heart or thoughts like in drama. During that meeting, ML told him that he should know his mom wants him to marry Jiacheng County Princess, his behavior can destroy her reputation, and their differences in status. She made him promise not to meet her alone again, talk to her, stop pursuing her and he made and kept the promise. Before that meeting, it was mentioned by his mom that QH already requested her to make marriage proposal for ML and his mom already told him she would allow him to make ML his concubine after he married his official wife but both him and his father disagree in making ML as concubine. During that banquet, his mom also noticed that ML ignored QH and knew her place. So, she never made ML or QH life difficult like in drama. She did not even mention about ML to County Princess. 

 

P.S. I'm not a native speaker, did not finish the whole book (only up to 200 chapters) and skip some parts while listening audio book.

 

 

 

[tomo74]

@nnnju I agree with you, crazy fanatic fans are scary, I saw people got into nasty fight (in the chat), name calling, swearing, etc because the crazy fan got offended for something stupid (no one even said something bad about that actor/actress, they just overly sensitive) so I'm happy in this forum, everyone are nice and open minded

[mrsyooknit]

While I do feel for QH, I do think he made some big mistakes in how he asked for his family to accept Minglan. However, it wouldnt have mattered anyways since his family wouldnt consider her for main wife. And if she had managed that, she would have suffered a lot on his household. So I am ready for us to move past this storyline and I don't know if the doctor was portrayed better in the book but I really could care less about him in the drama. 

 

I saw some previews and I feel like GTY is looking at Minglan differently, but she doesnt seem equally interested. Is it just me?

[tomo74]

2 minutes ago, mrsyooknit said:

While I do feel for QH, I do think he made some big mistakes in how he asked for his family to accept Minglan. However, it wouldnt have mattered anyways since his family wouldnt consider her for main wife. And if she had managed that, she would have suffered a lot on his household. So I am ready for us to move past this storyline and I don't know if the doctor was portrayed better in the book but I really could care less about him in the drama. 

 

I saw some previews and I feel like GTY is looking at Minglan differently, but she doesnt seem equally interested. Is it just me?

Maybe ML never see GTY more than big bro at this time or still haven't moved on from QH or she just keep grandma's suggestion (dr He) in her mind

[mrsyooknit]

Just now, tomo74 said:

Maybe ML never see GTY more than big bro at this time or still haven't moved on from QH or she just keep grandma's suggestion (dr He) in her mind

 

Maybe a combination of the first two. I dont think she likes Dr.He romantically, at least from one convo she had with her grandma where she was pushing Dr. He to her and she seemed to say that he deserved someone who really cared for him and that it wasnt her. But maybe this is bc she likes QH and she thinks there is still some hope. 

[zenya22]

2 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

I agree that it was QH's misunderstanding of his mother, him letting ML know in advance and ML telling grandmom in advance as she was so flustered and excited, were the cause of awkwardness  in pearl giving scene. However, I disagree with those saying that QH's mom was manipulative and cunning to cause shame to grandmom, ML and Sheng family. I do not think that it was her purpose. QH's mom never verbally promised QH that she would propose marriage for ML. She just said all three of them are attending CB's wedding. She probably did not think that QH will give ML wrong information in advance either for two of them have no reason to meet each other. She just knew that saying "no" to her son might not end the deal and her son would end up begging her again and again as well as she was not sure whether the girl's side was encourging her son without knowing their place (like Lin Yiniang and Mo Lan). That's why she wanted to make clear where she stands to both her son and Sheng family at the same time. Of course, she did not realize grandmom and ML already know that their status do not match, and ML has been telling QH that and avoiding him as much as she can. 

  Hide contents

In the book, QH's mom like ML since she first met her when ML was around 10-11. ML was a young girl, not developed into a lady yet and QH's mom did not say anything regards to him talking to her. She knows that ML made a knee pad for QH and stiched the shape of yuanbao "golden ingot" on the knee pad and QH's mom was laughing as she realized ML was quick- witted for using shape of yuanbao as QH's initial. The knee pad was made to use during provincinal exam not during imperial college exam like in the drama and QH requested ML to make one for him after he saw CB's one made by ML. She gave pearl necklaces to three girls as her first meeting gift to them, not as QH's gifts to them for becoming his sisters like in drama though she said that QH and three sisters to become siblings to prevent Wang shi (first madam) to consider QH for Rulan's marriage or having any thoughts from Molan and Rulan who were already developed. 

I have been just lurking the thread without commenting since beginning but I felt that some of you were blaming QH wrongly for being weak, wet-blanket, inconsiderate of ML and not having plans in trying to obtain ML's hand in marriage as you did not really understand QH's situation as well as his mom's since the drama did not really (1) explain well on the importance of being failial to the parents, family status, family name/honor and family connection during Song and Ming dynasty (2) added scenes between QH and ML to create typical first love like in other 21st century drama and to promote ZYL's QH as second male lead, creating inconsiderate QH. I felt that drama's writing and direction inconsistance with the rest of the drama lines potraying that period's culture is causing ZYL's great acting (with subtle eyes and facial expressions) injustice. I'm not QH's fan or having 2nd lead syndrome or against any actors/ actresses in the drama. I'm just a fan of good drama, good acting and writing. 

  Hide contents

Since the beginning of the book, it was very clear on how much difference in societal views on a person during that period vs 21st century. During that time period, although the officialships can be obtained by merit through passing different level of governmental examinations, the reputation and advancement of levels for each official are dependent on his behavior and his family status. Kong Momo warned Sheng Hong the bad reputation of favoring concubine over main wife could cause hinderance for his advancement in career or losing his officialdom. That is why he stopped over indulging Lin Yiniang though the drama was not really clear in potraying that. He stopped saying "yes" to all Lin Yiniang's request and giving more power to Old Madam and Wang Shi in the drama though. Sheng Hong himself mentioned to his wife Wang Shi that not being failial to Old Madam though she is not his biological mother can have negative effect on his career. Marriages are decided by parents and family and both man and woman has no say in their marriages especially woman. It is very common to get married very young before the man starts his career. There is famous saying “make family first then starts career”. A lot of poor scholar gets married before passing exam and they were supposed by wife and her family like in the case of ML’s cousin Shu Lan. Shu Lan family let her get married to this poor Sun guy with a lot of dowry as he was shou cai scholar who passed perfectual level exam at the age of 12 though his mom made living by washing clothes before their marriage. Her family was expecting that he will pass imperial exam and became high level official in the future. Also, lives of officials being in the capital vs in the cities in provinces are also quite different. Being in capital Biang Jing, people have to strictly adhere to ettiquets and act more reserved as it is the city where emperor has ears everywhere and all imperial relatives, noble families and high officials families reside. 

Back to QH...

He cannot go ask for ML’s hand in marriage from her family even after he passed the imperial exam, obtain official position, and obtain some wealth. ML’s grandmom and dad will not give consent if his parents do not agree to the proposal since they’re alive. (In the drama, matchmaker told GTY to request his father to ask for Yu  Yanran’s Hans for marriage from her grandfather Tai Shi when he was denied entrance at Yu’s family house for marriage proposal. GTY already have a lot of personal wealth and properties from his maternal grandfather though he has not gained anything from his own family yet. GTY’s father wrote the letter of proposal to grandfather in addition to GTY’s meeting the grandfather himself and that’s why grandfather almost agreed to the marriage until Maniang shows up). At this point, QH has not passed the exam yet nor he has any property in his name though he is from noble and wealthy family.

Another thing is drama changes his family status dramatically by changing his father as Quke and making him as eventual successor of ducal house, making audience think his mom princess did not agree ML because of her status and she looked down on Sheng family. In the book, the main reason she wants QH marry the county princess was to help him advance his career as QH's dad is not a duke but his grandfather is. QH's dad is second son of duke Qi and his older brother is supposed to inherit the ducal title though he also holds 3rd grade high official position. QH's uncle has a son already though this cousin brother of QH is sickly and it is possible that he might die and pass the ducal title to QH, however, it is not definite. That's why both his parents encouraged him to pass the imperial exam though he can still get position based on family connection. Of course, QH's mom is also written as prideful, main power in her household and cares about being legitimate and concubine born but she is not as bad as drama potrayed her to be. 

 

The only thing/ plan QH can do to be considerate of ML is to never express his interest/ feelings and just kept everything to himself. If that is the case, there will be not much scenes of QH and ML and no second male lead in the drama like the book. In the book, QH was mentioned in less than 50 chapers and he was just one of the four suitors ML had though he was the one who known ML since childhood and mentioned the most among 4 suitors. QH planned only once to meet ML alone in the backyard of his maternal's grandfather’s fu during his birthday banquet and he only mentioned that he wants to see her since he hasn’t seen her for a long time and that he likes her. He was not forceful in declaring his love for her or making her admit that she has him in her heart or thoughts. During that meeting, ML told him that he should know his mom wants him to marry Jiacheng County Princess, his behavior can destroy her reputation, and their differences in status. She made him promise not to meet her alone again, talk to her, stop pursuing her and he made the promise. Before that meeting, it was mentioned by his mom that QH already requested her to make marriage proposal for ML and his mom already told him she would allow him to make ML his concubine after he married his official wife but both him and his father disagree in making ML as concubine. During that banquet, his mom also noticed that ML ignored QH and knew her place. So, she never made ML or QH life difficult like in drama. She did not even mention about ML to County Princess. 

 

P.S. I'm not a native speaker, did not finish the whole book (only up to 200 chapters) and skip some parts while listening audio book.

 

 

 

@Golden FlowerWow, all these quotes? 

 

The societal/family norms of the time has been explained thoroughly by other posters who are familiar with them. The question then becomes why QH who is highly educated and should have known all the social/familial code of etiquette and rules in the society he lives in, not seem to respect them with regards to ML? For me it shows the character as young, brash and immature which is okay. He is not perfect which means that he has room to grow as a character as the drama progresses just like it was shown of GTY as the worst and most ineligible bachelor for a woman to be engaged to in the whole of China and is now being shown growth. QH is not a bad person but again he is not perfect either. As the episodes roll and QH is given growth, opinions of him also changes. I do agree that the mother is not to blame, since it was QH who asked even if he knew it was not within the rules of conduct or not know. This is about taking responsibility which GTY who is more mature has done. I am waiting to see QH do just that as in listen to ML and weigh the circumstances go in his favor and try again with his mother. 

 

As for the mother, no one said she was manipulative and it may not have been her intention to shame the Shengs but it is the perspective of the characters of the Sheng house who perceived what she did as slight to their honor. Granny and Big Mama said, "that princess looked down on us"

 

We as viewers are being shown many sides of all the characters which become the basis of our opinions but the characters themselves don't. 

[fra8]

45 minutes ago, mrsyooknit said:

 

Maybe a combination of the first two. I dont think she likes Dr.He romantically, at least from one convo she had with her grandma where she was pushing Dr. He to her and she seemed to say that he deserved someone who really cared for him and that it wasnt her. But maybe this is bc she likes QH and she thinks there is still some hope. 

 

I don't care for the Dr either. But I didn't care even in the book.

However the 2nd lead is QH so even if they develop the Doctor sl it is going to be just the safe relationship without any feelings. I hope it is a fast sl anyway.

Imo, it'd be hard to think of GTY as a potential husband from her pov.  He has a messy life in every way. So he is not a safe choice. But if he came back to the Gu house, there would be the same problem of status. He is in a higher position that her,   So it doesn't cross her mind to see him as a potential love interest. She wouldn't have considered QH if not for his courtship.

Quote

The societal/family norms of the time has been explained thoroughly by other posters who are familiar with them. The question then becomes why QH who is highly educated and should have known all the social/familial code of etiquette and rules in the society he lives in, not seem to respect them with regards to ML? For me it shows the character as young, brash and immature which is okay. He is not perfect which means that he has room to grow as a character as the drama progresses just like it was shown of GTY as the worst and most ineligible bachelor in the whole of China and is now being shown growth. QH is not a bad person but again he is not perfect either. As the episodes roll and QH is given growth, opinions of him also changes. I do agree that the mother is not to blame, since it was QH who asked even if he knew it was not within the rules of conduct or not know. This is about taking responsibility which GTY who is more mature has done. I am waiting to see QH do just that as in listen to ML and weigh the circumstances go in his favor and try again with his mother

I share your pov on QH

[Me_iDee]

Guys, Episode 25 is just amazing. Just watched it without subs but even then GTY rescuing ML and their interaction really set the scene for a great match. Can't wait to see how this will play out. 

[m0us3y]

2 hours ago, nnnju said:

Yes, i can read Chinese. I’m a Chinese living oversea for years. I finished the book long time ago. Therefore might need to go back to check if it comes to the very details. I like the forum here. All are peaceful and nice discussions about the plots, especially no overly protective fans of any actors and actresses. lol.

 

Quite some book fans are complaining about the changes of the character setting and the story. I think i’m among the book fans who like the changes. The drama is reconstructed into two story lines: the growth of Ming Lan and the rise of Gu Ting Ye. First these two lines were parallel and now they are interweaving. Beautifully done! The book is all just POV from ML. 

Nice!! Although I was partially hoping that you'd say you found a more decent English translation of the book. 

PS. I feel the same on this forum. No flaming, but mature discussion about the series, and the characters. And our thoughts, which are always our perspective, but everyone here is never abusive. 

 

2 hours ago, dito said:

I read about Yang Guifei on wiki . Wow, was she playing that emperor or what. Leading him like a kite...playing him like a piano, etc

@m0us3y I think she is acknowledging it....How's that for a character growth. Love it. These writers are smart. 

Thanks @Lunkera.

That's interesting...it never occurred to me she led him on. 

But it will be good to see that she knows when to let go and not hope for the impossible. 

[Golden Flower]

13 minutes ago, mrsyooknit said:

While I do feel for QH, I do think he made some big mistakes in how he asked for his family to accept Minglan. However, it wouldnt have mattered anyways since his family wouldnt consider her for main wife. And if she had managed that, she would have suffered a lot on his household. 

 

The storyline and scenes of QH and ML are potrayed totally different from the book and like I mentioned above, it did not consistently reflect the time period in every scenes. Since they also cut a lot of childhood scenes and put some childhood scenes in later as adult scenes, a few scenes became a little forced and did not potray well of QH's extreme fondness and attachment to ML. ML also loves QH as it became obvious as of recent episodes and upcoming epi 27 as (1) she admitted to grandmom how happy she is when QH told her he requested his mom to ask for ML and they're proposing marriage at CB's wedding (2) she told her maid that she believed in QH's words telling her he would persuade his mom and propose marriage when she came back and that she would like to give him another chance (3) she struggled to catch the doll that QH's gave to her even as she was drowning (4) she sleeps with the doll and it is her precious items (she gets scared of breaking it when Pin Lan took the doll away) (5) epi 26, she told her grandmom that she is willing to deal with the difficulty she might face with QH's controlling and powerful mom as QH is fighting so much for her. She does not even listen to grandmom (6) epi 26, she was eager to meet QH at Lantern Festival and told QH's man servant that she would wait for him as long as he is true to her (7) epi 27 preview, she was so happy to see tired QH and told him that she would always remember him even if he never gets to marry her. 

However, ZLY's potral of ML's feelings in the beginning was not on point, causing us confusion and creating a lot of debates of ML not liking QH, not being in love with QH and just being polite not to say "I do not like you". I'm not sure it was script or directing or ZLY's interpretation of the scenes but she could have subtle expression in her eyes and face of how delighted and happy she was when QH told her she would ask for her hand in marriage as his main wife in the temple. She made suprised exclamation but her back was facing QH when she did that and her face was down most of the time during the entire scene while listening to QH. She could make her eyes a little sad when she was making the brain talk during the scene. On the other hand, ZYL/QH was making great eyes and facial expressions of smack here and there portraying someone who is totally love-struck and filled with longings. So, this entire scene and the scene of conversation during Polo match gave us impression that QH was the one who is bothering ML. Actually, it is very obvious ML likes QH when she was making kneepad for him and during the conversation with grandmom before exam result comes out. She just denied giving QH knee pads as grandmom reminded her of QH's mom and their status difference. ZLY was mostly smiling during the scene when QH came to see her at another city and gave her the doll. Her eyes have no expression. If ML's eyes showed that she was lying and feels sad to lie to QH while saying the right logics to QH, those three scenes would have been better and audience might not feel QH is the only one who is pushing and being inconsiderate. In order for a guy to continue, there needs to have some signal. He avoided her many days after she gave away his pens and asked her maid to tell him to stop sending gifts. However, her knee pads and ingot shape stich in knee pads gave him encouragement to forcefully pursue her. 

Please do not hate me for pointing out ZLY’s acting. I like her in a lot of her other dramas like Lu Zhen, Shan Shan, princess agent but I think she still needs to work on her subtle emotional expressions with eyes and facial movements. I think she is good at characters who are resilient, being survivors and being strong but not good enough yet for characters being calculative, villain pretending to be good which require a lot of subtle facial and eyes expressions. 

I think the drama writers are also making GTY character a lot better than in the book to make funservice. All of his bad behavior (drinking, spending time at plays, brothels, casinos) except having Ma Niang and two kids were only mentioned without actually being shown as well as his idle wondering days. He was not even supposed to be attending school and never took any imperial exam. He was only good at martial arts since he was personally trained by his father. In the drama, he was even supposed to get third place in the imperial exam and only failed because emperor did not allow him to pass since he critized emperor’s punishment for a scholar. In the book, it was QH who was close to CB since they’re only a year apart not GTY. GTY is a few years older than CB. 

 

I think among all three leads, ZYL is the one with best ability in making subtle eyes and facial expressions. I do not see much eyes expression from FSF either though his facial expressions during face-off time with Maniang was good. However, his face should have been calmer and more normal when he first walked into the house to confront Maniang. A little bit of anger was already obvious on his face since he walked in and not normal facial expression he used when he talked to Maniang before. 

[m0us3y]

56 minutes ago, zenya22 said:

@Golden FlowerWow, all these quotes? 

 

The societal/family norms of the time has been explained thoroughly by other posters who are familiar with them. The question then becomes why QH who is highly educated and should have known all the social/familial code of etiquette and rules in the society he lives in, not seem to respect them with regards to ML? For me it shows the character as young, brash and immature which is okay. He is not perfect which means that he has room to grow as a character as the drama progresses just like it was shown of GTY as the worst and most ineligible bachelor for a woman to be engaged to in the whole of China and is now being shown growth. QH is not a bad person but again he is not perfect either. As the episodes roll and QH is given growth, opinions of him also changes. I do agree that the mother is not to blame, since it was QH who asked even if he knew it was not within the rules of conduct or not know. This is about taking responsibility which GTY who is more mature has done. I am waiting to see QH do just that as in listen to ML and weigh the circumstances go in his favor and try again with his mother. 

Nicely said. 

 

@GoldenFlower also, I think most of us are judging based on the drama, without comparison with the actual novel. There are clearly areas which the drama diverge from the book, for better or worse. 

What is written in the book and what is portrayed in the drama differs, so opinions would differ too. 

I wouldn't say it's justice or injustice to any characters or actors because if the actor does well, he will be able to shine even if the character doesn't. 

And I actually thought ZYL did a pretty fine job potraying the lovestruck with his only strategy to get together with ML is "beg the mom" QH. 

[m0us3y]

Spoiler

5 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

 

The storyline and scenes of QH and ML are potrayed totally different from the book and like I mentioned above, it did not consistently reflect the time period in every scenes. Since they also cut a lot of childhood scenes and put some childhood scenes in later as adult scenes, a few scenes became a little forced and did not potray well of QH's extreme fondness and attachment to ML. ML also loves QH as it became obvious as of recent episodes and upcoming epi 27 as (1) she admitted to grandmom how happy she is when QH told her he requested his mom to ask for ML and they're proposing marriage at CB's wedding (2) she told her maid that she believed in QH's words telling her he would persuade his mom and propose marriage when she came back and that she would like to give him another chance (3) she struggled to catch the doll that QH's gave to her even as she was drowning (4) she sleeps with the doll and it is her precious items (she gets scared of breaking it when Pin Lan took the doll away) (5) epi 26, she told her grandmom that she is willing to deal with the difficulty she might face with QH's controlling and powerful mom as QH is fighting so much for her. She does not even listen to grandmom (6) epi 26, she was eager to meet QH at Lantern Festival and told QH's man servant that she would wait for him as long as he is true to her (7) epi 27 preview, she was so happy to see tired QH and told him that she would always remember him even if he never gets to marry her. 

However, ZLY's potral of ML's feelings in the beginning was not on point, causing us confusion and creating a lot of debates of ML not liking QH, not being in love with QH and just being polite not to say "I do not like you". I'm not sure it was script or directing or ZLY's interpretation of the scenes but she could have subtle expression in her eyes and face of how delighted and happy she was when QH told her she would ask for her hand in marriage as his main wife in the temple. She made suprised exclamation but her back was facing QH when she did that and her face was down most of the time during the entire scene while listening to QH. She could make her eyes a little sad when she was making the brain talk during the scene. On the other hand, ZYL/QH was making great eyes and facial expressions of smack here and there portraying someone who is totally love-struck and filled with longings. So, this entire scene and the scene of conversation during Polo match gave us impression that QH was the one who is bothering ML. Actually, it is very obvious ML likes QH when she was making kneepad for him and during the conversation with grandmom before exam result comes out. She just denied giving QH knee pads as grandmom reminded her of QH's mom and their status difference. ZLY was mostly smiling during the scene when QH came to see her at another city and gave her the doll. Her eyes have no expression. If ML's eyes showed that she was lying and feels sad to lie to QH while saying the right logics to QH, those three scenes would have been better and audience might not feel QH is the only one who is pushing and being inconsiderate. In order for a guy to continue, there needs to have some signal. He avoided her many days after she gave away his pens and asked her maid to tell him to stop sending gifts. However, her knee pads and ingot shape stich in knee pads gave him encouragement to forcefully pursue her. 

Please do not hate me for pointing out ZLY’s acting. I like her in a lot of her other dramas like Lu Zhen, Shan Shan, princess agent but I think she still needs to work on her subtle emotional expressions with eyes and facial movements. I think she is good at characters who are resilient, being survivors and being strong but not good enough yet for characters being calculative, villain pretending to be good which require a lot of subtle facial and eyes expressions. 

I think the drama writers are also making GTY character a lot better than in the book to make funservice. All of his bad behavior (drinking, spending time at plays, brothels, casinos) except having Ma Niang and two kids were only mentioned without actually being shown as well as his idle wondering days. He was not even supposed to be attending school and never took any imperial exam. He was only good at martial arts since he was personally trained by his father. In the drama, he was even supposed to get third place in the imperial exam and only failed because emperor did not allow him to pass since he critized emperor’s punishment for a scholar. In the book, it was QH who was close to CB since they’re only a year apart not GTY. GTY is a few years older than CB. 

 

I think among all three leads, ZYL is the one with best ability in making subtle eyes and facial expressions. I do not see much eyes expression from FSF either though his facial expressions during face-off time with Maniang was good. However, his face should have been calmer and more normal when he first walked into the house to confront Maniang. A little bit of anger was already obvious on his face since he walked in and not normal facial expression he used when he talked to Maniang before. 

 

Again I'm not making a comparison with a book I've never read. But based on the series that I've watched, l'd beg to differ. 

ML is a character that wears a mask, and not many gets to see her true self. Underneath the mask, lies someone that's wise beyond her years, highly intelligent and full of wisdom, yet with no experience in love. But that is a side of her that until recently, only grandma knows of. 

With everyone else, she simply doesn't show what she feels. 

But the show, and ZLY did a pretty solid job to show that ML does indeed like QH, with her treasuring the pen and now the figurine. And she did have a bad heartbreak that even XiaoTao saw her crying. But that's something that she would never show QH, or the world. 

However, there were moments that we see this 15 yo clearly affected by him and his words, and it shows in her actions, or inactions. 

There were short moments where I could feel her mask coming off, only for her to put a brave face and put it back on again very shortly after. 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[nnnju]

2 hours ago, Lunkera said:

@nnnju Also didn't they change which dynasty it is compared to the novel? maybe i remember incorrectly. Anyway, it's good that it is in the song dynasty, since it lasted quite a while. Since it's in the northern song it is during the first half of song dynasty. I tend to feel depressed if the dynasty fall short after the novel story when it's displayed in the past rather than an alternate world.

Actually I can't remember that the author explicitly say it was in Ming Dynasty. It was just ML who as a time traveler made her conclusion that it is an era similar to the Ming Dynasty she knew. The politics in the book also did not reflect any real events in the Ming Dynasty. I guess it is the decision of the production team and the script writers to change it. I like it too. There were not so many historical cdramas about the Song Dynasty. Very refreshing.   

[fra8]

I think it was clear from LZY acting that she liked him. I just think it isn't true love, just puppy love. They don't know each other, they don't get each other. It's a first love, tender and sweet but it wouldn't survive the real life and its hard moment. And this even if she got to be first wife. Here their relationship appeared doomed from the start.

So she should have rejected him as in the book, it was the smart choice and she knew it too. Rationally it was a mistake and she acknowledged it with GTY. but here she had feelings.

However they developed these feelings just for the drama because in the book Minglan was never attached to him-  But if he had to be the 2ndlead, Minglan should have had feelings.

 

I agree that they are improving GTY. I liked him in the book despite his mistakes, but I guess they couldn't show everything if they wanted the viewers to accept ihim as a viable choice. It's the same reason why GTY is introduced in the beginning. A drama has a different dynamic.

 

I think the show had to make some different choices because it wouldn't have worked if it was kept faithful to the book. However based on the show, I don't consider QH smart or and I think he should have considered all the circumstances and what ML said. And he should have protected her.

[nnnju]

2 hours ago, leeza77 said:

Welcome @nnnju. Glad that you can read chinese. U Might be our guidance as majority of us are non chinese speaker. Godsend. 

Thank you! I feel very comfortable here as well. :-D But you guys are so fast in posting. One day away, 4, 5 more pages already. Hard to catch up. lol. Sure. just @me if any novel related issues, I can check for you guys. :-)

[zenya22]

12 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

Again I'm not making a comparison with a book I've never read. But based on the series that I've watched, l'd beg to differ. 

ML is a character that wears a mask, and not many gets to see her true self. Underneath the mask, lies someone that's wise beyond her years, highly intelligent and full of wisdom, yet with no experience in love. But that is a side of her that until recently, only grandma knows of. 

With everyone else, she simply doesn't show what she feels. 

But the show, and ZLY did a pretty solid job to show that ML does indeed like QH, with her treasuring the pen and now the figurine. And she did have a bad heartbreak that even XiaoTao saw her crying. But that's something that she would never show QH, or the world. 

However, there were moments that we see this 15 yo clearly affected by him and his words, and it shows in her actions, or inactions. 

There were short moments where I could feel her mask coming off, only for her to put a brave face and put it back on again very shortly after. 

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree with your interpretation of ML character 

[nichiwoohee]

Cute!

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/MondayMoonlight/status/1082955062911983617

 

 

[m0us3y]

6 hours ago, zenya22 said:

Ep 23: My favorite scene: ML and GTY strolling the beach at dusk before she left the camp of the sea folks to reunite with her grandma and the rest of her relatives at the Sheng ancestral home. It is as if they had never been apart and they just picked up from where they left off many years ago when GTY helped the 8 year old ML bring the doctor to her ailing mother and then became friends. They were open and easy as they revealed their experience of prejudice and deceit from family members growing up, their means of coping derived from the strategems of war and experience itself. ML is reserved and does not bare her thoughts easily to anyone even with grandma (who can see through her) but not with GTY. Deep down she trusts GTY who in turn has no problem being himself with ML. They even talked about GTY's daughter and advised GTY about how to raise his daughter.  He told ML about Manniang, that ML was right about her and it was him who could not see it. These 2 are family, they are honest with each other. What they talked about, they probably would not easily talk about with other people. 

Just finished the 2 episodes with subs, and I totally agree with you on episode 23. 

Couldn't believe it myself, but I actually shed a tear when ML actually told GTY how the whole family just moved on while she lost her mom, yet she had to choose to survive hence she decided to just behave and be quiet.

That would be one thing that has been weighing in her heart, and could not say a word about, even to her beloved grandma. 

The whole conversation between the 2 was just so honest, so sincere, so heartfelt. 

 

And it does make me think..and wonder...that this is probably the ML underneath her mask. A side that not many has seen. And since she's always been the most well behaved girl with QH (and tried to keep her distance if I may add), doesnt that sorta show that QH doesn't really know ML, and if so, did he fall in love (hard) with someone he really do not truly know or understood?

[Golden Flower]

@zenya22 I have been withholding to comment for over two weeks and my comment became long. That’s why I put most of them including things related to book in spoiler. 

My main point was not being fair in people comparing QH and GTY in understanding ML and protecting ML. I’m just not too happy with drama writing and direction in creating QH and ML scenes. They took some scenes from book leaving a lot without including some explanations even as conversation and added some to create more scenes but that caused inconsistency with the time and making QH as immature and whiny with no character growth. I do understand they have to make changes to avoid time traveling, create more second male lead scenes, develop first love and heartache to create character development for ML as she was already an mature adult in the book. 

The drama writers could have included 1-2 childhood scenes showing closeness between QH and ML and QH’s mom fondness of ML when she was young like in the book while they added arrow throwing competition, getting doctors for ML’s mom and GTY’s grandfather funeral scenes for GTY. The writers made QH’s mom never met ML before and QH only sees ML during class since they were young. 

[Lunkera]

@nnnju Yeah, most period dramas are before Song or during Qing dynasty. The drama being in Northern Song means that it's atleast like 150 years before Song falls. Which makes it alot nicer. I dont know which emperor rules at the moment since i haven't started watching yet if it's even mentioned. It's nice to see some different parts from the spoilers i have read. In episode 23 GTY says he will never go back to Gu Residence, which probably means that Rong won't be abused by the stepmom like she was in the novel since GTY left her with Nannies. I hate seeing children abused, but unfortunely it was pretty normal during those time periods, heck it's not that unusual even today.

Glad that you can escape from the fan wars atleast ^^