[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否？知否？应是绿肥红瘦

[Golden Flower]

1 hour ago, mooose said:

@Golden Flower  

I've only watched up to ep 69 subbed so I'm not too clear on the sentencing decree. The properties in question are the Bai properties? So this is really a family issue not public corruption per se.

 

GTY is a popular figure within military circles and has saved the Emperor and son numerous times. The Emperor is an absolute monarch so he can decide the penalty at his discretion. Even without the pretext of fooling ED, would he really have such a man who has given such service, made penniless and homeless. Why is it a given that he must lose his house?

 

A family could also lose its noble title (have it rescinded by the Emperor) and become commoners. Its not a given that the title must be passed down etc. I guess that's why Stepmom is panicking, losing the title doesn't mean GTW will automatically get it.

The decree listed a few of GTY wrong doings some of them are his bad behavior which are harder to translate for me though I kind of get the idea. Part of his conviction are making decision without fully investigating, killing official's family member, being greedy and confisticated civilian's properties. It didn't mention specifically which family properties. I'm assuming it is referring to Bai family since his Bai uncle sued him. I'm just pointing out the weakness in writing why list that as one of his wrongdoings if they don't plan to include rightful punishment which is taking away those properties. 

 

I'm not sure you know,....in feudal society in China, the title of nobility and some official position comes with fu (house) for the title holder. It is similar to University Provost for some older university in US. They live in Provost house on campus during their tenure but then they have to move when they resigned. In ep 36, GTY was bestowed a fu (imperial property) along with his title "captain of imperial city army" since he is a new official with high position who came with new emperor from Yuzhou.  If Chen garden is NOT next to Hou Fu, he would have already needed to return it to the emperor after he became Marquis and moved into Hou Fu. Since he lost both his military and marquis title in addition to being imprisoned and going to be exiled from being convicted, we're saying his crimes are not just family matter and they have been considered serious for emperor to make this decree.  Since Chen garden is still being separated from Hou fu and emperor not having designated anyone as Marquis, everyone who understands the rule of fu coming along with the title are saying, at least Chen garden should have been reclaimed along with general title. 

 

We're not saying confisticating everything owned by GTY and ML or other things and properties bestowed to GTY as punishment. They won't be penniless. They can buy a house with their own money (even a 5th grade official like SH can buy a house with his own money). GTY and ML have their own money and properties acquired and bestowed since GTY became general as well as money and property from Gu family (though they still need to share that with GTW) in addition to ML's dowry and GTY's bai inheritance. ML also has right to move into Hou Fu since she is still part of Gu family and first brach hasn't been financially separated between GTY and GTW. However, the writers might think that it is unnecessary since two fus have been merged legally (though there is still wall) and it is just one Marquis Fu. In the book, the house was never a concern since GTY was just demoted from his general position but never lost his Marquis title and two compounds were really merged (there is no wall). 

 

In reality without having scheme, emperor cannot leave this hereditary title thing unsettled as if there is no Marquis, Gu family is not supposed to get those taxes. Those hereditary noble title holding families have ancestors who greatly contributed to establishment of the dynasty and that's why they were given fu along with their title. The only way for those hereditary titles to be abolished is the whole clan is being convicted of crime or there is no one to continue inherit the title. If the emperor  is going to abolish Ningyue Hou title after GTY was convicted, stepmom will also lose her noble title and everyone needs to move out from Ningyue Hou Fu since it is imperial property.  They can still own other properties bestowed to them or purchased with their money. They will just lose the Hou Fu and taxes they got from their allocated number of households being Marquis.

 

[leeza77]

1 hour ago, Suzzy San said:

Am I the only one that actually doesn't care much about the 'supposed inconsistency', like I know the writing will bring in some unthinkable and unmatched plot but still fitting for the drama.. I think we are all thinking too much at this point.. Somehow all these things match, somehow they seem unreasonable but that's the fictional part of the drama.. They could have gone for the simple, not over dramatic plot like just accusing him of leaving his post or not answering to the king's call when ML was giving birth.. But they went for the stupid excuse to aid downfall and also decreed him an exile but that's after he comes back from the supposed fight and that's when the decree will happen.. So I think, we are not just putting more attention to the dialogue because we think the plot has gotten unreasonable, however they still very much correlate to me, from a non realistic view.. I put all 'it should make sense' behind me when I'm watching a drama, because when it doesn't make sense, that's when it's a drama...the viewers might know it doesn't the make sense, but the characters are living in that not making sense life which makes it make sense.. So I think we all should think too deep into the plot or think too much as regards the novel and the drama, it will only cause more headaches, trust me.. 

Ha hq.. Agreed with you. Just enjoy the drama. 

[minglan1]

I hope we do get a sweet ending for Shitou and Xiatao too.

It was the so nice to see old friends of ML,aunt, Danju visiting during her son's ceremony...

[linhlinh111]

I agree with @Golden Flower the Emperor can't just take away the Marquis title. There are 2 types of noble title in feudal China: the non-inheritable ones (given to minor contributors) and inheritable ones (given to major contribution to the country). In heritable ones, those that were bestowed for people helping in establishing the dynasty are the most prestigious (like Gu family) and can't be ripped off bc some descendant committed a crime. The current emperor can only take away titles that he bestows himself (for those with major contribution in his time). Titles that were bestowed by previous Emperors can only be recalled under the crime of treason or similar level. However what he can do is leaving the title hanging, meaning he drags the time needed to make a decision on the heir. This dragging time can be months or years depending on his Majesty's preference. During this time, Stepmom's title is unchanged since she's still the previous Marquis's wife, and they can still keep their residence. But they will lose many privileges since women can only socialize in a small circle and no men in the house have noble title, so they can't socialize with other noble men. The role of men in families is very important. Even with the Marquis name, if no men in the house have the Marquis title then their status will drop drastically.

[Suzzy San]

12 minutes ago, leeza77 said:

Ha hq.. Agreed with you. Just enjoy the drama. 

As in, let's just enjoy the drama.. We are bringing a lot of realistic views about true history and protocols into the drama which is making it too deep opposite the light plot of the drama and that's why we are conscious of some things.. To me they make sense, but us thinking it doesn't make sense is what's making it not make sense....so we just shouldn't think too much because that when the drama becomes 'not a drama' but a memoir of real life.. Forget the real life time or what they do real life in that period, because to the writer, this is how her ear of minglan she imagined, not the Era of how it really is.. This is a piece of imagination and what the writer wants her imagination to look like, more like a fantasy that can't happen and wouldn't be so in real life.. So after all, it's just an idea adaptation from the novel not the duplicate for the novel.. So I think, some things not realistic, reasonable, is what the writer is going for eventually.. To us, it might be a writing or plot flaw, but to the writer, this is her poetic license to bring in her own ideal story of love achieved through obstacles. 

[dito]

 

1 hour ago, matrim said:

It's sad to see the drama plummeted after Grandma poisoning. All these assasinations, scheming plots and actions made me numb. They disrupted the rhythm of the drama and made me feel as if I'm watching a different drama now, a second rate palace farce instead of a high calibre family drama. I think the strength of the drama lies in its subtle depiction of family matters, relationship between characters, layered characterization and a good sense of humor, not in dramatic twists, exciting actions and to some extent, suspense. I'm afraid the writers are busy wrapping up all the lines and forget what they did right in the past episodes.

 

Well said!

By adding all that drama, excitement, suspense and thriller they took away everything that was making this drama work and turned it into something that its not.

Sorry for cutting your post.

[leeza77]

Molan and her humble pie.. Last night excerpt 

http://p.weibo.com/show/channerWbH5/1034:4338651102957605

[minglan1]

7 hours ago, Suzzy San said:

As in, let's just enjoy the drama.. We are bringing a lot of realistic views about true history and protocols into the drama which is making it too deep opposite the light plot of the drama and that's why we are conscious of some things.. To me they make sense, but us thinking it doesn't make sense is what's making it not make sense....so we just shouldn't think too much because that when the drama becomes 'not a drama' but a memoir of real life.. Forget the real life time or what they do real life in that period, because to the writer, this is how her ear of minglan she imagined, not the Era of how it really is.. This is a piece of imagination and what the writer wants her imagination to look like, more like a fantasy that can't happen and wouldn't be so in real life.. So after all, it's just an idea adaptation from the novel not the duplicate for the novel.. So I think, some things not realistic, reasonable, is what the writer is going for eventually.. To us, it might be a writing or plot flaw, but to the writer, this is her poetic license to bring in her own ideal story of love achieved through obstacles. 

Well put.Dramas will deviate from doing  actual historical presentations most of the time or else it's  difficult to give us eye pleasing scenery,moments...

If they followed Northen Song dynasty depiction of women to the T...they would have to show foot binding of women..it started in this era..then we wouldn't  have had polo matches or ML running brandishing a sword. Some of my most enjoyable moments of the drama would have disappeared...There are other instances that I know from the study of Song era as not being an exact depiction..it's ok..it is a drama to help me relax and enjoy after all.

[shihuangdi]

Is this the final episode (ep 73)?

 

 

 

I feel very sorry for GTW - to have such a horrible mother. Also for Rong'er  but glad those evil somehow got their punishment. I sort of wish they would suffer first, like being flogged to death or something like that instead of having an easy ending like that. 
 

 

 

Also glad that QH can finally open his heart to his wife. Now that QH is likeable again, I just notice the way he dressed up is so regal, compare to other men. Like the way he wears his outwear unbelted makes him look like a real prince  And he's also quite good looking.

 

Also I've been wanting to ask this, why do the men seems to have 2 names - like Qi Heng is Yuan Ruo, GTY is Zhong Huai? And is there any difference between calling your mother "Niang" vs "Mu Qin"?

[matrim]

New preview: http://t.cn/Ec3RA9o?m=4338997956353501&u=1897410357

Spoiler

Stepmom committed suicide by burning herself in Gu ancestral hall. Final mad scene of cursing ancesters from Gu clan, especially GTY's father. GTW didn't turn evil after all.

 

[zenya22]

14 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

 In the book, GTY was demoted without being taken away his Marquess title for leaving his army outside the city and coming back to the city without permission.  ED already knew GTY leaving his post for salt inspection and defying emperor's decree. If they show similar to the book by just taking away GTY's general title, it would have saved at least 3 episodes or more of ruckus, prevented ML from being tortured, one less assassination attempt on the newborn baby, and no need to bring back MN, Bai uncle or Yu Yanran or family members from Youyan. The step-mom would have been already at odds with the OTP for GTY burning GTW's courtyards. He would then be recruited by General Shen just to be a platoon or group leader without a title and much authority.

YESSSSS. They created episodes with more angst that make no sense and does not give depth to the story but shallow excitement for no reason. It makes the emperor and the empress look like the hillbilly yokels come to the capital to put crowns on their heads but don't know what to do with it. I mean they do have scholars whom they could have consulted, eh? 

 

The character that grew up by leaps and bounds is Yuan Ruo and I am loving him in these episodes. He accepted what is and let go of wanting to prove his love to ML, learned to care, respect and love his wife while keeping the memories of his young and intense love for ML somewhere tucked in the corner of his heart. He still loves ML yet respects her choices and supports her as a friend and fellow man/woman. Hopefully, GTY will learn from Yuan Ruo. Love is not about jealousy or trying to turn the woman you say you love into someone she isn't. Love is accepting and loving the person for who they are warts and all. Yuan Ruo is a good man. 

[Jackie1048]

Just an observation, Zhu Yi Long (Qi Heng) reminded me of Tony Leung Chiu Wai

[Suzzy San]

9 minutes ago, zenya22 said:

 

 

The character that grew up by leaps and bounds is Yuan Ruo and I am loving him in these episodes. He accepted what is and let go of wanting to prove his love to ML, learned to care, respect and love his wife while keeping the memories of his young and intense love for ML somewhere tucked in the corner of his heart. He still loves ML yet respects her choices and supports her as a friend and fellow man/woman. Hopefully, GTY will learn from Yuan Ruo. Love is not about jealousy or trying to turn the woman you say you love into someone she isn't. Love is accepting and loving the person for who they are warts and all. Yuan Ruo is a good man. 

Yanrou's character grew up so well and awesome.. His wife is also someone that really amazes me.. So I'm so glad he got a happy ending to his story.. So cute.. 

Hmm.. I actually think GTY's character does not want ML to be something she is not, in fact, he wants her to be the person she is, he doesn't want her to be bound by formalities like she was in Sheng house and had to pretend to be something she isn't.. GTY has seen her true self before marriage and as such wants her to be that person, I think like how Ml's trueand free side cared for grandma and her mother, he wants to be cared for by that free, unbounded and true spirit of ML.. Jealousy is just something he thinks once she showed it, it's a sign that she actually cares and like how ML said, it's the amount of stupid things done that shows the love for each other.. We can see that when ML got jealous, he was afraid whe will get angry so his happiness dissipated.. So in all, GTY is a hurt child in a man who wants assurance for the feelings given to him, are you sincerely in love with me, or because your role as a wife deems that, so you are going by your duty of living me to be virtuous? Like how my stepmom did to show the world she is a virtuous woman who loves her husband woman's son while she just hates him so much.. In the end, it's all about the pain each and every character has gone through in their childhood and adult life....my two cents on the matter though, it's nothing much.. 

[matrim]

1 hour ago, shihuangdi said:

Is this the final episode (ep 73)?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I feel very sorry for GTW - to have such a horrible mother. Also for Rong'er  but glad those evil somehow got their punishment. I sort of wish they would suffer first, like being flogged to death or something like that instead of having an easy ending like that. 
 

 

 

Also glad that QH can finally open his heart to his wife. Now that QH is likeable again, I just notice the way he dressed up is so regal, compare to other men. Like the way he wears his outwear unbelted makes him look like a real prince  And he's also quite good looking.

 

Also I've been wanting to ask this, why do the men seems to have 2 names - like Qi Heng is Yuan Ruo, GTY is Zhong Huai? And is there any difference between calling your mother "Niang" vs "Mu Qin"?

In ancient China a person's names was a complicated matter. Usually one had two names: Ming and Zi. The former was given by one's parents and used by elders, the latter was given when one turned 20 (in the case of females, 15) and used by peers. Generally Zi bore similar or same meaning of Ming and sometimes it's a complement to Ming. Some had a third name Hao which reflected one's ideal or characters. To show respect for others, one should use Zi or Hao instead of Ming. So we seldom hear QH but Yuan Ruo. As Qi was his family name and Heng given name, Yuan Ruo his Zi (sorry there's no English equivalent for this). Niang is the informal word for Muqin, carrying more intimate feel, their relationship similar to that of mom and mother in English.

[jwhite]

I think GH (who I agree is georgous) came around largely because his wife finally let go of her insecurities and he was able to see her in a new (intelligent) light. 

[Suzzy San]

I think a lot of the story were explained in ep 70.. Waiting for the subs but from what has been translated, GTY's punishment will just take place after autumn, so they still can stay in their house, ML told grandma she will put on her noble dress and plead for GTY, even though their title have been deranged, she said she doesn't care about the offense..  separation request was already told to ML by changbai's mom so that the kids don't become the son of a convict, but ML said she will stay by him,after that GTY also said it, but it eventually became an emotional moment for the couple.. GTY already told changbai, when he asked that what's his plan and he said he can't reveal it now.... So I think they still staying in the general's house is like a case of landlord giving notice of eviction, they still have like 2 months to leave the post fully and the house.. Since someone begged that he should go to war first before they enact the punishments, and they can just remove his general title if they want to show the people that his crimes and punishment have not be leviated, so that why he went as a foot soldier. There might still be some inconsistencies or flaws to some but not to me, since I don't really care about the dynasty or the supposed way it should go.. And I think it's better this way, since we are now getting the unrealistic view to the drama.. In short, it's a drama, let's not be too emotionally, realistically, logically, righteouslly, deeply vested into the ways it could have went.. We will just be writing a new drama ourselves.. 

[Guest]

I know nothing of what's historical fact or is fiction and I haven't read the book or even all the comments in this thread.  Yet I appreciate the knowledge of those here that do and have.  For someone like me I can only share in what my heart feels and sees through the words of its writer and the images set before me. 

 

I can tell you that while watching the banging of the Deng Wen Drum by ML and others with her, my heart was pounding too.

Boom... Boom... Boom... Over and over and over again.   In watching her kneel, beg and plead with her arms held up using every strength within her and her courage in not allowing herself to ever give up.  Seeking out all those around her in crying out loudly showing  us that same desperation we saw and felt when she was a child in her every action and in not willing to let one stone or chance go unturned or undone.

 

What broke my heart  more than anything was this feeling as if this little girl ML although all grown up now had returned to a place she knew all to well.  That sense of helplessness in seeking out anyone and everyone to please listen, please help me, all the while knowing her once savior was now locked up.  The man who loved her, their son and her family more than even himself.

 

Yet this broken moment would in so many ways express the way in which love sacrifices and protects and the courage it gives you in ones willingness to never give up hope even when  justice is hard to find.  It's even harder when you know the truth but everyone tells you it's at to high of a price to be set free.  When throwing ones headpiece and crumbling to the ground I thought how cruel a fate to have to lose ones Mother at the hands of others and then to be faced with losing her husband in the same way too.

 

Still there was a sense of beauty within their constant struggles and  the pain in which they always seemed to face.  That in a cold dark and gloomy jail cell with tears in their eyes and brokenness crushing down on their spirits and hearts.   There was a glimmer of light that night that shined ever so bright.  Seeing their faces all a glow as if in a bubble all their own.  Looking at each other, their loves strength that seemed even in their darkest hour to surround them .   In their thankfulness an understanding without any doubts what was always true.   Just what the person in front of them meant and what they meant  through  the eyes of the person looking back at them too.

My love, my heart, my life, they are all you...

 

 

[hell59]

I am confused, are there 79 or 78 episodes? How about on VIKI, what's the total there?

[frenchfan]

2 hours ago, Jackie1048 said:

Just an observation, Zhu Yi Long (Qi Heng) reminded me of Tony Leung Chiu Wai

You are totally right.  I thought he looked so familiar.  The young version of Tony Leung.  

[savingrace]

37 minutes ago, hell59 said:

I am confused, are there 79 or 78 episodes? How about on VIKI, what's the total there?

In Viki, it says there are 76 episodes. And given the days countdown, it seems last episode is this Friday. There seem to be less ep in Viki because they're running DVD version, which I believe has longer running time per ep, compared to TV version.

Edited February 12, 2019 by savingrace